Bitcoin Forum

A p2p network is a network that allows two or more computers to share resources equivalents. All nodes have equal rights. In the bitcoin network computers do not share their resources (coins) equivalents and nodes do not have equal rights between them.

I don't think you understand what a peer-to-peer network is.

Also, bitcoins are not network resources.

Also, all full nodes are equivalent and have equal rights to braodcast and receive transactions and blocks.

we mine peer-to-peer don't we? :D

therefore bitcoin is p2p :)

"A peer-to-peer (P2P) network is a type of decentralized and distributed network architecture in which individual nodes in the network (called "peers") act as both suppliers and consumers of resources, in contrast to the centralized client–server model where client nodes request access to resources provided by central servers."

Just in Bitcoins case the resources supplied and consumed is the blockchain.

Bitcoin uses p2p for transactions/mining have u seen the source code

seems to fall in the p2p category to me and I'm just somewhat knowledgeable on the matter.  I'm just not sure what the point The OP is getting at.

As DannyHamilton mentioned, the bitcoin itself is not the network resource.  :)

Good point.

Are you for real? Bitcoin is open source, you can check it.

They have equal rights but not equal power (hashing).

Profound feeling good, don't understand completely

No it is 2 different things :

 - A right is what you are allowed to do or not on the protocol. Everyone is a "peer" on the network, every peer is allowed to do the same things as other peers.
 - A hashing power is how much you contribute to the network. Every peer is unique because it is impossible to have the exact same hardware and even if it is the same hardware, the connection and bandwidth will never be the same depending on the location.

Compare with P2P downloading : everyone can upload an download content but everyone have a different computer and Internet connection, yet it is peer-to-peer.

OP wants Bitcoin communism!  ;D

The content of the p2p have nothing to do with the network rights or peers.
Imagine if all the content of the torrent network (that is a real p2p) was a single mp3 file because all peers would have the same content. Absurd.
All peers must have a different content.

There is no universal p2p rules. Each p2p network has it own set of rules. Each peer is different inside a p2p network.

Bitcoin is a real p2p decentralised network.

Only thing that isn't decentralized is hashing power with the large mining operations. The blockchain itself is shared equally among peers. As for a system where everyone has an equal share of coins, it simply wouldn't work in a decentralized system.

The hell you're talking about? Bitcoin is decentralized not Communistic, well in a sense it does sound communistic but it ain't

Why communists? Where do you get the idea that bitcoin is a communist system?

Not in a Proof-of-Work system. The people that mine the more, get more coins but it is still a p2p network.


Don't avoid the subject, you were wrong, Bitcoin is p2p.

I agree, it is a waste of energy when we have Proof-of-Stake but this is an other topic.

Yes good, you noticed. Bitcoin is not a file sharing network, it is a payment system.

I can send a Bitcoin to you and you can send a Bitcoin to me.
We have equal rights in the Bitcoin payment system : we can both pay and receive a payment. This is p2p.

With VISA or MasterCard : you have to pay for a terminal, pay a yearly subscription and fees to receive a payment. The sender and the receiver do not have equal rights, this is not p2p.

p2p means there is not central element, meaning peers are connected directly between itselves, which Bitcoin is

Why do you keep saying communism and capitalism?
IMO, the p2p feature is not really related to that.

Can't tell if trolling, but just in case:

Bobos, you seem hopelessly confused about the meaning of certain words. Let me help you:
Anarchism is a political system without rulers, in which individuals govern themselves rather than be governed by others. Does not imply communism and is not incompatible with capitalism.
Bitcoins are units of currency. They are not data, though data may represent proof of ownership of a certain number of bitcoins by a particular person, or a transfer of bitcoins from one person to another. The amount of data needed to do so is in no way related to the number of bitcoins involved.
Capitalism is an economic system in property is privately owned and may be freely traded for other property or for money.
Communism is an economic system in which the means of production are publicly owned and the public has free access to the goods and services so produced. Does not imply anarchy.
Peer-to-peer is a decentralised computer network structure in which computers connect directly to other computers on the network rather than through a central server. Has nothing whatsoever to do with any political or economic ideology. Network resources are typically privately owned and funded, and are not necessarily shared freely.

None of what you're saying makes the least bit of sense.

Bitcoin is literally peer to peer. It's one of its main benefits.

Democracy is not an economic system. It is a politic ideal. In fact it doesn't exist because it is too easy to corrupt in any system.
This ideal existed once for few years in Athens but it has been corrupted and we never got close to it since.

Today we use the term Democracy instead of Plutocracy (the actual system).



Yes p2p has indeed political and economic impact but we cannot say that it is an economic system in itself because it can fit in different system. It is flexible.

Bitcoin is a lot of things and it is easy to get confused. It is an idea, an invention, a p2p network, a payment system and to finish, a monetary unit.

It is all these things at the same time and you cannot take just one of them to define Bitcoin.

 

Anarchy as in greek anarchia which translates to "without rulers" this however does not mean that there are no rules. There is a big difference between a person or a group or persons setting rules (thus beeing rulers) or a mutual aceptance of a certain set of rules.
I disagree with Foxpup that this contradicts capitalism (as in you own what you own and can trade it to anyone you like).


It was far from ideal in Athens, mainly because only citizen could vote and thus the minority.

Perfect democracy (as in consensus not majority) is the same as perfect anarchy. If everyone has the same rights you dont have anyone above you and thus no ruler.

But lets get back to the topic, which is p2p not political systems if I remember correctly.


Everything of relevance has impact.


p2p itself is not against anything. If you think so, please explain why. Because the way you just say "its like this" we can not argue with you.


Thats refering to the bittorrent protocol I assume? What about them? They changed the way to music industry thinks about distrubuting music and the same downloads will revolutionize the film industry. The current distribution system is outdated. Why cant I pay x amount of currency to watch HBO from e.g. Jamaica? Or just the show I want to see? This makes no sense with the internet.


The blockchain is shared equially amoung all full nodes. The "coins" are allways in the blockchain you only hold a private key, which is the right to spend certain coins.


Which functions are not? Why are they not p2p? What do you think is p2p?

To be honest, OP's definition of p2p is kind of strange...

OP is mixing up the p2p and bitcoin

Ok, nice quote. Bitcoin fits perfectly. The blockchain is a common good, everyone can use it. Well not those without internet, but that is true for most p2p networks today. Bitcoin relies on social relations, on the people who mine and the people who use it as a currency to allocate resources. Every full node is equipotent. I still dont see your the point.

Why is the blockchain not a common good? You can download it for free. Anyone with an internetconnection can.

IF all coins where shared equally... I understand now that this is your problem... they would have no value. If there are 1000 people who have bitcoin and everyone of those 1000 has the same amount of bitcoins, whats the point? And if person 1001 comes along, does everyone give a part away? You could probably make a coin like this, but thats not a currency. I can not transfer value like this.

But if everyone has the same you can not give it away, because it would not be the same amount for everyone. Dont you understand that money only works if its possible for 2 people to have different amount of money? Money is the idea that I have something that I can trade for something else tomorrow or next week or next year. But with your "everyone has the same" idea, I can never trade it for anything and thus its not money.

Edit:

"the iron money could not be used anywhere else in Greece."

"It was now impossible to buy foreign goods and no cargo of merchandise would enter a Spartan harbor, no teacher of rhetoric trod Laconian soil, no begging seer, no pimp, no maker of gold and silver ornaments – because there was no coined money."

http://www.mikeanderson.biz/2009/06/lycurgus-spartan-monetary-system-and.html

Sounds like a stupid system

Bitcoins are not the data you download. You download the Blockchain, the list of transactions. I have a complete copy of the Blockchain on my computer I share it everyone that runs bitcoin core and is conncted to me.

Where is the camera? ;)

 ???
I could not understand your point...

Dude, you need to get back to the drawing board pronto ;)

Not so sure, that is possible.


This. Bobos15 make a new coin. You dont have to write any code yet, just think clearly what this new coin would be and what properties it should have. If you want equal coins for everyone, how would you allow spending? etc. Maybe we just dont understand eachother because english isnt our native language. Maybe your idea is the new top coin, who knows.

If you believe that, I suggest you go back to your bitcoin intro tutorials

So you get something from my for free? Well unless I buy something else for 50$ teh same "online time"... Why should I give you lets say 50 keys TF2 for 50$ if the next day my 50$ are gone and my keys TF2 are gone.

Hmm ok, but when Im alone, I cant do anything with it anyway. Lets go back to you buy something from me. You buy these keys, I get 50$. Now you have more (keys) and I have more (1050 now). If I understand you correctly: the next day you still have more (keys), but I dont (1000). So if I want to give you a gift I dont need this "money", why bother?

It's just that I was feeling like being in an hidden camera prank while reading this thread  :)

I dont understand this. So I wake up in the morning, make coffee, start my PC and start bobosCOIN15-core then what? I get 1 share?



But maybe I dont need something today... So I can only sell when I want to buy something that is worth ~ the same?

So I got 50$ from you and have <5 Minutes to buy something with it or its gone?

But everyone has a share that is online, correct? So do I have 2 shares after we traded? I dont understand how this is helping us to do our trade.

Sooo you get keys or cheese or a house or whatever, and I get disconnected? I dont think I can follow you...

But its your system, when I go to the next economist and ask him/her about bobos15's system, they will have no idea what to tell me.

I do not think that balance on the Bitcoin wallet will just disappear if it is not hacked. I have read somewhere too that Bitcoin uses P2P or it is a peer to peer transaction.

No worries, ellen. The above posts (at least in this page) made by bobos15 and shorena were not discussing bitcoin but a new idea from bobos15.
Your bitcoin is still safe after you close your wallet and switch off your computer.

You dont want to make a coin


You practically send me away when I did not understand your system


You dont answer questions, or not all of them
How is anyone going to understand your theory if you cant even give a simple example? Now you want to make an experiement?

Give me an example how a trade with your currency would work.

Well I get it but why do you need a payment system then ?
If you are sending a money that you cannot keep then why do you pay at all ?

This is indeed a good read, but if you read between the lines they still write about money in a way that bitcoin is money. While this is only one possible future, if we go there, it will be through a phase of transition. Money will not be useless even if we arrived at the p2p society the article envisions. There will allways be use for something that holds value. When I brew beer (great craft, people will allways needs drugs ;) ) and want to trade it for something else, the person that wants the beers might not have what I want. Money itself is not the problem, as the article points out. The taxation is focused on the "wrong" things and a system based on interest can not be sustainable in a finite world.

If you are interessted in topics like these I encurage you to read "the ecotechnic future"
http://www.amazon.de/The-Ecotechnic-Future-Envisioning-Post-Peak/dp/0865716390

Great insights on our society and possible transitions to a more sustainable living.

I kinda see OP's point.  Anytime you connect to bobo's network you get 1 share, thus the "communist view"

Everyone's on equal ground.  Not one person is a multi millionaire, and not one person has Bitcoin dust.

The spending problem is the flaw in Bobo's peer to peer model.  If I spend all my 1 shares to buy a cheeseburger, disconnect from Bobo network, eat purchased with Bobo money cheeseburger, take a shit, come back to my computer and reconnect to the Bobo peer to peer network, I get another free 1 share of Bobo money.  Now I can buy a 1 share milkshake to settle my stomach.   :P

Bobo is confusing politics with technology.  P2P networks don't have equal processing power, hardware, connection speeds, or software at the end of each node.  Only common denominator is the Bitcoin protocol and the Blockchain, which is the same for all.

Bitcoin wasn't made to be equilateral for all people using it.  Just like any currency, some people have more gold or silver or fiat than others.  Just because the technology is meant to be accessible to everyone around the world, doesn't mean we all get an equal slice of the pie.

If you believe he is a troll, don't feed the troll.
If you believe he was talking about nonsense, don't argue with him.

:D

But... If the idea is to just "share" the coins with whoever is online, why not just do away with it in the first place and just freely share whatever it is you want to trade? What you're trying to describe, a coin that you would no longer own once you disconnect from the network, would not have the ability to act as a store of value. Answer me this... What would be the benefit of a "coin" that has no potential as a store of value? Who would use it?

What do you mean by that exactly?

Everyone can be a millionaire in Zimbabwe :)

I bet you can be a billionaire if a Nigerian prince contacts you.   :)

I like this "bobos15 coin". It's very communistic. We can do this with smart cards.

Let me just upload some coins to the bitcoin central server  ;D

Yes, it is p2p, when you buy or sell we are connected on the same network.