Bitcoin Forum

Voting will close on 29 April. The option that has received most votes will be worked on.

This post is still in draft and will be updated.

Some cons for PoS:

• Not minable anymore through normal means.
• Current stakeholders will likely benefit more than others buying in later on.
• Questionable long-term sustainability depending on the adoption of the coin.

Some pros for PoS:

• Multipool will be able to raise and support the price naturally, depending on volume on the market.
• Since it's not necessary to mine through normal means you will benefit from the coin by just running the wallet.
• Next to no energy consumption is needed to mint coins, compared to traditional proof of work coins making it less of a necessity to dump coin on the market.

Some cons for merged mining:

• Compared to the current model it doesn't seem like there's any real negative.

Some pros for merged mining:

• PND and DOGE miners will be able to mine both blockchains at once, essentially meaning free coins apart from the targeted coin.
• Better security for the PND blockchain should DOGE miners be starting to agree on merged mining.

Nice to know it is an option for us to upgrade to POS, thanks for the update and opportunity to discuss and vote on this important Pandacoin PND decision. I didn't vote yet but do believe POS offers us a more secured coin as well as rewarding long time community members and offering an incentive not to dump Pandacoin PNDs...  We can always Mine via our multipool, which is an awesome service we should all be participating in to some degree if possible.  The Multipool at least gives us a fighting chance now to hold off the declining value of our Pandacoin due to too much mine and sell at any lowest price (dumping).

It is really nice to have a POS coin in your wallet that is also essentially mining equipment so to speak, instead of using lots of electricity or buying expensive hardware or even generating unwanted heat in the summer, just POS. Proof of stake, essentially lets your balance represent mining equipment, permitting you to mine new coins using your stake according to your staked balance. You don't dump your mining equipment do you, so your not going to want to dump your Pandacoin if it is POS, the more you have the better your mining will go.  There are going to be plenty of Pandacoins to use them too, but most of the new Pandacoins mined through POS will be by Pandacoin supporters and users not so much by mine and dumpers so the coin value will increase for many reasons IMHO.  It is very scary to have only a few litoshi of value for such a good coin and community when we have a developer / team who can and will support our Pandacoin advancement efforts such as the multipool and proof of stake technologies.




  

why are people changing the rules in the middle of the game ?

Honestly you guys see the PoS hype train and think that going pure PoS will save your coins.

Next thing you know, you guys will make the PoS pay out 100% per year, but not before loading up on PND.

pretty sleezy if you ask me.

Nothing has been changed yet. This thread exists to determine the opinion of the people currently involved with the coin. You know, those who are planning beyond the quick buck that most miners on this board are trying to make.


Presenting an option doesn't mean it's a definite solution.


Clearly you're not aware about the current state of this coin or what it stands for.

Please refrain from posting senseless assumptions without doing your research first.

I totally support POS. POS plus multipool just makes sense, for now at least.

I don't mind mid way rule change, it shows flexibility, which is key to survival. As long as the decision making process remains democratic, it's all good.

Not to over complicate but just to brainstorm, what about a hybrid solution.
keep some POW traditional mining (could be merge mine with Dogecoin) along with new POS too?
 ;D

This would be too much of a hassle. It is easier to just go full PoS if anything.

Updated the poll with a few more infos and an option for merged mining.

it's a classic routine we have seen lots in the last year.. a method of refresh coins to compete with the P&D's
in turn under mine the old coin and original investors.. seen this go down lots

i thought this coin was wrapped up is so much bs and drama the coin was basically dead.. changing the coin is going to clean off old stains ?  :D

Please read:

or you could respond to what i said.. it's up to you lol
lazy much ? hahaa

Only fair since your comment was more than half-assed, but as you wish.


Why do you call this type evolution and progress a "refresh"? Again, it's only something we consider besides merged-mining. We are presenting it as an option and would like to determine how it would perform in the future.


See above. Should we take this path we won't abandon anything.


See above.


See my other reply.


PND is one of the better performing altcoins right now.

If you have nothing productive to add, please consider leaving this thread.

PoS would be great
do you have to keep wallet unlocked to generate blocks?
i mean PoS would keep network secure, but what about our wallets?

The wallet would need to be unlocked.

PoS please.

Is it possible to reduce the maximum number of coins? The initial total supply (100 trillion) PnD is just way to much. That's one reason why the price suddenly plummeted and has almost no chance of a comeback.

Thanks for the feedback.

The current cap is at 100 billion. Personally I wouldn't be fond of changing that aspect but since we will be working on a better reward structure in the future, we might consider it.

And what is your plan to get rid of the pure PoS vulnerabilities?

Adopting it would be one thing. Fixing longstanding code another.

I dont get your answer, you are talking about adopting to PoS, so you clearly must have a wise plan to fix all the issues that it introduces?

Most of the stuff has been talked over and over again here, and noone found a good solution so far, what peercoin does seems to be the best solution right now.

Would you mind pointing out which issue(s) you're referring to? I'm guessing you're talking about malicious stakeholders?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=131940.0

This for example was fixed in the kernel of peercoin by using entropy from the PoW blocks.

You can read more about the fundamental problems here: http://blog.ethereum.org/2014/01/15/slasher-a-punitive-proof-of-stake-algorithm/

Sounds like a good idea

Interesting. Thanks for bringing this up.

Doing a hybrid of both protocols is indeed possible but harder to execute. I'll be taking a look at how blackcoin accomplished being pure PoS.

They dont, they ignored all questions regarding those issues in the thread.


I dont see how an hybrid is more complicated, peercoin does it, novacoin too and blackcoin is just a novacoin fork which removed the PoW part...

Personally i wouldn't run after the next best hype.

PS: Peercoin still uses centralized checkpoints to fix other issues, its not decentralized at all.
PS2: I guess merge mining in your position makes the most sense, however todo this successfully alot of infrastructure needs to be built :)

100% Proof of Stake combined with the addition of multipools that expends 100% of gains from other coins buying PND would is an attractive option to implement.

This coin was fairly launched (0% premine, no stealth launches or insta-mined) and the distribution of the coin is one of the most decentralized and spread out compared to other PoS coins.

There's a niche market for PND with that coin structure and inherent marketable qualities that should make it one of the forerunners out of the POS coins in the near distant future.

A good reason to have PND fully POS is that the hashrate doesn't have to be split between mining PND and the multipool

We can get more hashrate for the multipool without having to sacrifice anything

I am not sure what merging with mining doge is exactly so I wont comment on it

Having people to choose between mining PND directly and getting it through the multipool is simply counterproductive

Mintcoin removes PoW to fix potential security issues

The Mintcoin team has today released a mandatory wallet update which removes proof-of-work from the coin entirely, meaning Mintcoin is now 100% proof-of-stake.
http://coinjoint.info/mintcoin-removes-pow-fix-potential-security-issues/

seems Rat4 of BC explains how pure PoS is safest for them and mintcoin, other ideas bantered around too. Zeitcoin is following suit I believe and goin pure PoS.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=551861.0

I'm curious in merge mining, but are we actually in talks with doge folks? are they on board at all? does that mean we can rely on doge miners to keep the pnd network going, and people who really want pnd can just mine on the multipool?

It's more efficient to first determine what we actually want. Splitting efforts would be counterproductive right now.


Since it's our network we are also responsible for keeping it going. Since we would be receiving hashrate out of goodwill and from people setting up the appropriate/patched pool software even more so.

Just some further thoughts on Pandacoin going PoS
The Mintcoin wallet has some nice features now.
These would be nice enhancements for our wallet too perhaps
From Mintcoin  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=450381.14020

New wallet properly sorts all transactions by date as a default. It used to sort them by status. That is why orphan blocks always appeared on top.
New wallet has option to go to Mintcoin homepage under Help menu. Now you can quickly reach Mintcoin FAQ  Cheesy .

They are close on what looks like a well designed and secure PoS Android wallet, I am watching closely and have been doing my own android development, so who knows Wink

POS is the way to go!

Got a question for the devs: when does the poll conclude?

It appears there's strong support for PoS implementation.

It is now generally accepted that PoW+PoS is in fact less secure than pure PoS. The reason for that is the low PoW reward typically cause a low PoW difficulty and a pure PoW 51% attack is in fact quite possible despite the widespread false claim that "you need 51% of stake and 51% of hashrate to mount a 51% attack on hybid coins". I had first hand proof of that when running the PND multipool - there were no less than four instances where the pool accidentally managed to mount a 51% attack on BottleCaps against Cryptsy. I still have the transaction and block hashes to prove that and screenshot from the reverted CAP deposits on Cryptsy which are now permanently stuck in the deposit list.

Merged mining requires new infrastructure, as you say, in particular it would be quite interesting to patch MPOS for merged mining. This brings more added value than just hopping on the pure PoS hype train in my opinion, but on the other hand, it seems that PoS only coins do work decently well if they are well distributed. PND had absolutely great distribution in the first month but got major concentration afterwards which is a reason for concern. However, the multipool can help redistribute coins but as the price rises it is increasingly more difficult to convince new miners to join, and there is a real risk that PoS coins will at some point stall when the hashrate of their supporting multipool declines.

Merged mining could bring support from DOGE and ultimately, from LTC as well: if PND merges with DOGE, and DOGE merges with LTC later then it becomes possible to mine all 3 coins at the same time.

I would like to voice that I support merged mining, it would be something new and fairly unique in the way xfr described, while becoming a proof-of-stake coin is just copying what other coins that became valuable (in price) recently did...

In my opinion its a bit shortsighted, the bigger pro of PoS is the fact that together with our multipool it means that the price of PND will rise faster than it is rising now and thats about it... The coin could as a result become a target for people wanting quick profit on that property, like what happened with blackcoin - when price was low in the sense that their multipool could climb through the orders pretty fast, a lot of people bought blackcoin, then when the price and size of the sell orders became big enough for the multipool, a lot of people went on and sold their coins for this big profit.
I have nothing against any of this, but for those wanting in on that game the point is that there is already blackcoin, there are already other coins copying it too, none of them seem to aim to be used as a CURRENCY though if thats how they work. What is the goal of PND in the end? If it is to last and become useful, of which my personal example of currently useful cryptocurrencies are BTC and DOGE, then inovation, and inovation without the goal of creating artificial bubbles should be pursued.

I'm with the option of merged mining with DOGE through a pool as described... This would be new and a lot of fun, and I say that as someone whose miner is a 25kh/s APU, if I just wanted to make some usd my best option would be if the coin became proof-of-stake, since i'm here since the first days, and in my humble opinion that seem to be the goal of the many who want PoS. They want to use their holdings and invest further and make a profit, which again, I have nothing against, but there are other PoS+multipool coins around, the only difference it seems is that some people already hold PND and not these other coins, and thats why they want PND to go PoS

Thank you for the constructive and thought out contribution.

+100... I agree with this...
I voted 'Bring merged mining with DOGE instead!'

It is my opinion that PoS, in the long run, will be a detriment to any coin that uses it. Because of this I whole-heartedly support merged mining with Dogecoin.

Unlike LTC (who tried to get DOGE to merge into their block chain, in a very unfriendly way), the Doge community, I think, would actively support any coin that decides to merge mine with them. This could be a huge opportunity to PND because it will expose the coin to the massive DOGE community.

+1

PND community are all shibes. Born from the same wellspring.

Also, time is running out. I sense it's soon going to be "merge or die" for a great many scrypt coins. Better to be ahead of that tsunami.

As of yet Doge community is not supporting us which i am guessing is from the lack of understanding of what merged mining is. To be fair even a lot of people from the PND community dont necessarily understand what merged mining is

I don't think merged mining is the solution for the following reasons:
- it's still the same old PoW: biggest rigs control majority of coins
- it is not ASIC proof, hence the above
- dumpers are still going to dump, price is, unfortunately, a measurement of success
- playing devil's advocate: getting something for free does not mean I will support the coin. It's a bonus to sell to the market and I bet that multipools will implement this very quickly and the majority of coins mined will be dumped (at least currently despite lower hash rate we have supporters holding majority of newly mined coins

Here is the only thing that's positive: we "may" get more people with PND wallet, but that doesn't mean they will keep a balance in the wallet.  

For all the above, I believe PoS is the future and generosity from existing holders to distribute coins through marketing, faucets, bounties, donations etc are the way to go.

We need to focus on slowly raising the PND value, the community, awareness, and ecosystem to move this coin forward.  

If they want to support, mining at our multipool, visit a faucet, do something positive to claim the bounty, or buy from the exchange are still viable ways to get involved.  Or, provide a service or sell some goods to get your PND.

I voted for MM, as i think it's a new idea which might bring a lot of attention to pnd, also considering the big hash rate of doge, many people would get involved in pnd in one way or the other, but seeing most votes are for PoS, which i'm afraid will not guarantee success as many coins failed with PoS for one reason or the other, i was thinking, if it is technically possible, it would be good to implement both!

I share very similar views as you, so thanks for putting it out there.

This coin also has something which most of the other POS + Multipools coins don't have - which is a specific targeted niche market to be used as a currency (reflected through the high coin cap @ 100 billion) and a targeted region which is SE Asia. The only semi comparable coin is Asiacoin if we do head towards the POS route, but I firmly believe our coin has superior marketing fundamentals and we wouldn't be crowded amongst the 'country coins' fads which have been propping up left right and center as of late.

definitly POS... and for the miners out here... Use the multipool... we keep the network safe.. you get PND payouts... and there is always volume on exchanges that way...  ;)

merged mining is like being the silver while doge is the gold... just my thoughts on it...

Many POS coins aren't really doing all that well tho, it's very likely that we announce the switch to POS, it gets some interest and we get a price spike, but as soon as the price semi stabilizes, people will start to dump. What do we do then?

Another problems being most active discussions surrounding PND happens on 4chan or IRC, potential new comers not aware of that thinking PND is dead due to the low activity on our BTCT thread and reddit page...

The good thing with merge mining is if we can get the doge folks interested in PND or at least start talking about it, our community will become more active, which will in turn bring in more outside attention. A strong and growing community is the real key to success.

so ask yourself is POS really worth it? It took a long time for this small pnd community to get to where it is today, do you really want to risk it all on POS? It we switch to pos and it fails to catch on, many will lose faith in PND and will be dumping to get out, this could really back fire on us.

On the contrary, MM is a much safer option as well as being a different and refreshing approach. The doge community doesn't have to endorse or even agree with us at first, in fact, we don't need the doge community's approval for MM to happen.

People like to talk about the country coins, well think of this as a country coin for doge miners  as a toke of appreciation for keeping our network running. This will also potentially bring along many future collaboration opportunities. Kinda like an alliance contract if you will.

Let PandaCoin become a symbol of love and peace, it was born to fight evil, and it stayed alive because if the loving community, with merge mining, we can spread our love to even more people!

Imaging a future where PND is merge mined with every coin and everyone owns a piece of PND...

This poll will close in 6 minutes.

This poll is closed. Thanks to everyone for voting.

can I ask why the volue is doubled in last 24 h?

Speculators are rushing in.

Please continue discussion in our main thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=568529). Thank you.