Bitcoin Forum

All my fiat's value is simply being eroded by inflation and if the UK government defaults on its huge amounts of debt, the £ could be worth next to nothing.

Yeah, Bitcoin fluctuates but the risk of a total collapse of Bitcoin seems less likely than fiat currencies when you think about it.

So, you are saying it is more likely for a whole country like UK to collapse, than for Bitcoin?
I am not so sure about that.
The question also is, what to do, when your country collapse? Take your Bitcoins and move to another country? Would another country take you?

I don't think, that just having bitcoins instead of fiat makes you save in any way.

The situation would be similar as in Greece, but for UK, it would mean notable effect worldwide (recession)

It can happen to mayors as well, all what matter is debt increase % versus inflation % over longer period

The question you should be asking is does any sane person belief fiat is a good investment?

Anyone who truly understands the financial system and has at least half a brain would say no.

Well it's not controlled by a government or central bank; it's decentralized, that's something...

Is fiat an investment?
You have to use fiat for your daily needs, so you need it, I don't think, there is currently a way around that.
There is also a difference between your savings and your investment. You can put all the fiat you don't currently need into any investment, but what if your car breaks down and you don't have the fiat to pay the repair. Is the conversion from your investment into fiat easy enough? Will you get out, what you put in, when you need money fast? How much time does it take for the conversion?

What I am trying to say is, that you should act smart and also think about, when something goes wrong. Being prepared for the case UK collapses but not be prepared if your car breaks down, isn't smart.

This is how I feel.  The blockchain feels safe in that the coins wont just evaporate.  Wait for the first bail-in and others will see your point

Not investing in anything (having 100% of your assets being fiat) is also investing. And a risky one at that.

What if the dollar collapse tomorrow? You'll be poor as shit. Just like pretty much everyone else except the smart few who did not have 100% of their assets in fiat.

Of course you need to pay your monthly bills, buy food, etc mostly with fiat (at least until you can do that with bitcoin), however you should not leave large amounts of fiat at your bank.

If the dollar doesn't collapse, maybe your bank will, and a bail-in or bail-out is not as unlikely as it seems.

Personally I have enough fiat to last for a month (and also some problems if they should occur) and the rest is in silver and bitcoin (and soon gold). These three are much saver investments than fiat in my opinion.

People, please stop the fuddery. US$ is NOT going to collapse, not tomorrow, not the day after. Sure, CNY will most likely replace it. SOMEDAY. We will all be licking Chinaman's balls for money. But, it won't be for a while longer.

If US$ were to collapse, do you know the consequences? Bitcoin will be the least of your worries, then.

The refusal by almost everyone to consider the fact the USD could fail is why it will.  I fully understand what will happen.. I am not pleased at becoming a FEMA minion.

It can be hard to feel like Bitcoin is a "safe" investment when the price fluctuates as much as it does.  However, the truth is that over a decent amount of time, like 8 months to a year, it has proven to be a great store of value.  It is a very "liquid" investment though.  Funds can be moved very easily in and out, which is a huge advantage and actually adds less risk than something like real estate.

I got the feeling many people feel this way.  Doesn't mean there is gonna be a smooth ride along they way.  Seems people either like or hate it but as far as a safe investment goes I'd say yes, if you do your research on how to protect your investment.

It will collapse, why else is the USA fighting for oil? Oil and military are the only two things that are backing the value of the US dollar. The USA is losing their military supremacy and their 'monopoly' on oil.

The question is not if fiat will collapse, the question is when.

Two guys were hiking through the jungle when they spotted a tiger. One of the guys reached into his pack and pulled out a pair of Nikes. His friend looked at him.

"Do you really think those shoes are going to make you run faster than that tiger?"

"I don't have to run faster than that tiger. I just have to run faster than you."



What I mean is, the right question to ask is not whether Bitcoin is a safe investment. The right question to ask is what is more safe than Bitcoin and what is less safe? Because there is no such thing as 100% safety in investing. There are things that are in certain conditions more safe than Bitcoin, others are not. For example, is the pension system in most western countries safe, more safe than Bitcoin?

It is only as safe as you make it to be. There're many aspects to it, investment one of many. Bitcoin itself may be rock solid in terms of its fundamentals, but if you are careless with your security or are not technically savvy, you can lose all of your bitcoins in a blink of an eye. And once it's gone, it's gone, there's no such thing as salvaging what little you can salvage,  it's all or none. Understand Bitcoin thoroughly, not just its monetary aspect but its technical aspect as well, before you decide to 'invest' in it.

I feel it is a convenient hedge that shows its utility as a store of investment the less stable your countries financial system is

Is Bitcoin an investment asset? Investment assets are stocks, bullion.etc. But isn't it against our objectives, if we term Bitcoin as an investment? No one considers fiat currency as an investment asset (well... except in very rare circumstances). I genuinely fear that the currency value of Bitcoin might decline, if we see it as more and more like an investment.

We all here are gambling..you cannot be sure on 100% about the long live of Bitcoin, you just can support it and believe it will survive in the future

Bitcoin is am investment with good prospects, but not a safe investment. Buying gold is a safe investment. Price of gold may go down, you may loose money, but it is still considered safe. ROI and risk may be linked, but they are not the same.

Well, the argument is based on the 10% extreme probability. In case of gold, there is a 10% chance that the value can come down from $1,200 / Oz to $600 / Oz. (Considering the demand for gold and the overall supply, I think this is very far fetched).

In case of Bitcoin, the 10% extreme probability means the reduction of value from $470 to $0.00. That is the difference between Bitcoin and gold.

I guess you could evaluate bitcoin just like any other asset. Ask three things, What is its return? What is its variance (risk)? and how are its returns correlated to other assets. Basically most assets these days are highly correlated. If you buy into the US stock market you are buying essentially the same asset as if you buy into any other market. If bitcoin is similarly highly correlated then it is just a risk return relationship. Think about it, if bitcoin is 10x as risky as the stock market and they are both highly correlated then you could invest in the stockmarket with 10:1 leverage and you would have the same asset as investing in bitcoin. Alternatively you could invest 10% in bitcoin and the rest in a basket of government bonds and you would have the same asset as the stock market. However if bitcoin is not highly correlated then you will have lowest risk if you invest in both assets. Correlation is the important thing not risk. A portfolio of many totally uncorrelated assets has virtually zero risk even if the individual assets are highly risky. Actually it is possibly that bitcoin is not very correlated to other conventional assets and that this is the reason for the high price because it makes sense to diversify any normal portfolio with bitcoin.

Usually all profitable investments are risky at some point. If talking about bitcoin i think it's worth  investing in bitcoin if you have individual money for it because we all strongly believe that it will go up alot in a long term. But if you're about to sell your car and a house to invest your all money in it, DON'T DO IT.

The Trezor will be my bank - and Dark Wallet will ensure my anonymity. I shall buy my family - who hitherto have been sceptical - their own Trezor's or something very similar. People will slowly start to use a percentage of their Bitcoins for purchases. Others they will invest (via Ethereum perhaps ?)

   Bitcoin isn't going to go away. For my children BTC will be an "a priori" given - and the transition for them from fiat will be no big deal at all - they will have never used cash.

We will see cash in museums.  Our grandchildren will say, "What is that?"  ;)

It is a safer investment than investing in Microsoft. Digital currency is the future.

You are worried about your tiny stash of fiat losing 5% annually, while bitcoin swings up to 30% in a given day. Bitcoin has lost almost 60% since January 1st before rebounding to losses of -40%. Yep believe in the blockchain.

The value is all over the map because of the poor liquidity. This is exacerbated by what the miners create everyday. ie 3600 coins roughly every 24hrs.

Bitcoin is not an investment because it produces nothing. Buying a bitcoin does not increase total wealth. Someone else now has your fiat. You are basically hoping a future individual comes to take you out of the trade.

Too much of an exaggeration? Microsoft would have been a risky investment 20 years ago, not now. With so many products on their basket, including the hugely popular Windows, it will be outright lunacy to call Microsoft risky. Also, during the 2009-14 period, Microsoft has given around 120% return on the investment, in addition to annual dividend yield of around 2.8%.

There are no safe profitable investments. We here investing in BTC all risk.

of course it lost value since January, we're in a medium term dip.

The difference is that Bitcoin, in the long term, only goes up. While the dollar and all other fiat, in the long term only go down.

Who cares about a short term loss when you increase your money tenfold in a year. So shortsighted.

If you give an estimate how much fiat loses annually, you have to make calculations for bitcoin annually as well. So, let's say, January 1st is the date you pick for that, check the price on January 1st, 2015. You can't choose any arbitrary period less than 1 year and say the investment has lost or gained anything within that interval, because it'll be an irrelevant estimate.

And what exactly is supporting the Euro?  A bunch of countries that can't come to an agreement on most monetary policies and several countries that have a HISTORY of defaulting (the US has never defaulted).  What exactly is supporting the yen?  An aging demographic and over a decade of stagnation?  I could go through the whole list of fiat and countries and poke holes in what is "supporting" them.  If you honestly think the USD will be the first to collapse, you need a few more economic classes.  If you honestly think ALL fiat will collapse and the world goes on like normal, you need your head checked.

All fiat money will eventually collapse. And to say the USA never defaulted is not entirely accurate.

First, we had the gold standard, were gold served as international currency and every currency was backed by gold.

Then the USA invented the scam known as the bretton woods system, on which the USA defaulted.

Now we have the petrodollar scheme, an even bigger scam, and the USA is close to defaulting on that.

It's not a race between which country had the best fiat though, because all fiat money is a scam and they are all doomed to fail. Put your trust in bitcoin, gold and silver, not in wordless paper.

It's quite sad really that you know fiat is backed by nothing at all, but you still believe in it, to the point where you even call me an idiot for thinking outside the box. Goes to show the power of indoctrination.

It's alright buddy, keep watching mind numbing TV series and keep voting on presidents, they only want the best for you. They will totally not take your rights away with lame excuses like counterterrorism and financial problems. Ah great America how glorious are you, you're the first and last empire that will last forever, and the first one to conquer the galaxy to spread it's glorious peace and democracy.

 

Re: Does anyone else feel like Bitcoin is a safe investment?
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Bitcoin is Digital Gold 2.0
================


 Nothing has recently outperformed Bitcoin for the last few years, ever since it's inception.

 Far too much is focused on short term noise and not on the long term Log Chart Trend line.

 Of course most don't even know what a log chart is and I for one am not going to spoon
feed dumb money.



Re: Does anyone else feel like Bitcoin is a safe investment?
=====================================

 Hell YES. It truly is Digital Gold 2.0, and is very likely to succeed far beyond the wildest
dreams of everyone. Wait, it already did that! But the Decentralized Monetary Revolution
is merely getting started now. This forces every government to behave much better with
their own currencies, or face capital flight out of their banana republic currency.


 DECENTRALIZED Digital Cryptocurrencies are a huge part of the future.

A revolutionary future. Way bigger than almost anyone can imagine!


 You Better get Bitcoin now!

Or you will almost surely wish you had.

Wait, you didn't get some a year ago? O my, o dear.

Well what the heck are you still waiting for?


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 Collapse is a relative term. Since April 2000 we have been in a slow motion collapse. The
dollar has lost most of it's value since then. Measured in Oil, Gold, and other commodities
too the dollar is over half way down from it's 1999 level. Same for almost every fiat
currency. There has been an international currency war, a race to devalue currencies,
a type of trade war, so that exports can stay high.

 We're in collapse fools (the one's claiming we're not, and there wont be one are idiots
and in complete denial, or out of touch from reality for whatever reason).

 From Japan to Europe to China to India to South America to North America we're almost
all in financial straights.

 Even wages have fallen for 14 years running. Standards of livings are falling.


 Already over 50 Trillion in new Debt has been blown since 2008 alone.  

 China just blew the  worlds biggest ever debt bubble from merely 6 years ago, with relatively
little to show for it at 23 Trillion and counting in China alone. Even with slave labor that mess
of a communist nightmare is going to end up dragging the entire world down with it from the
current looks of things. Just in case the reader didn't know the true facts about that giant
mirage called Red China. By the way, Never, ever, do business, or anything else, with what
are Communists (State Fascists). Same for Corporate Fascists, but that's us today in the
entire western world, much to the shock and horror of those that are still sleep walking.

 Most don't have nary a clue. Those that do try their best far too often to ignore or justify
things and make it so it's not a big deal.

 Any sudden calamity wont drag on and on. The countries that enter such a thing will simply
default, (renegotiate their debts, QE, etc) and bring on a new currency, or add zeros behind
their new peso style banana republic currency eventually. Life will go on, but we will all be
poorer for it. It wont drag out for a long period of time. It wont be the end of the world.
But we all will pay a very high price one way or another!

 America today is Amerika, and very soon Mexerika. Get used to having a much lower
standard of living in several more years time if things keep operating the way they have
been at the highest levels in major businesses and western governments.

 Not even Gunboat Diplomacy can save the Federal Reserve Notes (dollars). Their burnt
toast. A giant Joke. The 'new peso' being dumped by China, Russia, India, etc. In other
words no one wants them. Much the same for Euros but worse very soon. And for Yen too.
And almost every fiat currency. The world is currently awash in the biggest debt bubble in
all history. Get over it.

 The college grads today will still be paying for their obscenely overpriced education into
their 50's due to out of control greed and fraud. That doesn't bode well for the economy
at all for the next 30 years.

 Fiat currencies always have ended being worth exactly zero.

 The the current dollar wont prove to be any different.

 
 After the present dollar dies a new currency (dollar) will rise along side of Bitcoin (Gold 2.0).
And likely a vastly superior digital medium of exchange will end up co-existing with Bitcoin
which is a vastly superior Store of Value as well as a good (but not great) medium of exchange
imoo.

 Almost every western nation has gone bankrupt or ended up in serious default during
some point in the last century, even the USA during the 1930's.

 Every central bank eventually ends inc complete ruin of itself, and it's client nation state.
Face it, their not so bright, and certainly not the smartest bulbs in the room. But instead
merely cunning crooks and swindlers, as well as corrupting parasitical maggots.



Re: Does anyone else feel like Bitcoin is a safe investment?
=====================================

 ABSOLUTELY. Of course there is risk. Real Capitalism involves real risk. Don't risk too much. But do take risk, or you will surely be sorry you didn't take any risk at all, eventually. There is no rewarding of failure in real capitalism. Only wealthy elite parasites and their kind reward their own failures until they run out of rope. And that rope is running out fast...

 

Caveat emptor

i dont think it is a safe investment
it is highly risk
and everyone should be causious

Only buy btc what you can miss, btc might end up $2 or $200000 who knows..

But Warren Buffet does not invest in Microsoft so it must be risky...

The way you put it OP, yes safe investment. If your looking for safe investment, there's always gold and silver ::)

Although these months has been really hard for the price of the bitcoin it show to us (well i consider in that way) that since i've started doing invesments wisely, the lost was in a low rate, and each new day there is more and more factories and stores using bitcoin as a way to make paymentes. In my opinion is safe.

Government default might be the best thing for the pound.  Without the debt, the incentive to debase the currency is diminished.

Its not an investment, super simple answer to your question.   If you want to buy a load of Euros I will say the same thing, the coins have no innate value and no return.
 so what it is, is speculation on politics mostly.   A holding in a bank that pays interest is a kind of investment, in the old fashioned sense that risked the bank going broke and they lent your money; of course all money comes from gov now so scrap that.
   It is possible to get interest on BTC via some contracts, thats an investment and risky



I would not say that, anyone can fail.   Look at Ericsson, worlds largest mobile maker and the shares lost alot of money



Partial default if people prefer but obviously they changed terms, so thats a default like greece did on its debt or whatever.    If they even so little as raise the retirement age for state pension by a year, its a form of default

Seems to me there are two camps; Those who bought before the run-up and crash, and those who bought after the run-up.

Does 4 digit returns feel like a safe investment? *&#(%&* A Right it does.

Eventually everyone in the 2nd camp moves to the first.
So eventually everyone believes it's a safe investment.

Time tells no lies anyways for those that got in at the higher amounts they are either in for the long haul or selling at a loss
For those that came in sub 100 they have been here for the thick and thin and probably won't leave or be worried about this price lol.

Both camps are in the wrong. Bitcoin is good as part of a well diversified portfolio. Actually everyone should hold the same amount of Bitoin in their portfolio such that the portfolio maximises there return relative to their risk. Asking if Bitcoin is a safe investment is the wrong question. Instead we should ask how much Bitcoin to include in an efficient portfolio.

Bitcoin is approximately ∞% of my portfolio. Is that an efficient portfolio?

Refreshing basic mind:
Bitcoins are wide known as a virtual trading good spreaded over alot of people and controlled by, IMO, the foundergroup, which first developed e-gold (semantic analysis proofed) got seized by CIA and made than the anonymous e-gold bitcoins.

Classical analysis says, as the tulp mania or glass pearls mania showed us, it cant be. Bitcoins are the glass pearls of the internet time and its technology. BUT this glass pearls are having advantages over the FIAT pearls. So if you feel secure enough investing in glass pearls, which can be used for trading goods, then jump on. When not, then you could miss the train.

I am really interested to know what info your conclusion about btc being controlled by foundergroup is based on?

i don't think it's a safe investment but worthy of trying.

I think most of new Bitcoin users (lake me) are wondering how serous this currency will be. As for now I'm just chatting and watching other peoples opinion

If you hold another asset that is not correlated to the Bitcoin price then your portfolio will be more efficient as your risk return relationship will be higher even if the asset has greater risk and lower return than Bitcoin. So the answer is NO unless you regard Bitcoin as being less risky than Govt bonds. That is to say the only efficient portfolio that holds just one asset is where the asset is risk free. Now of course Bitcoin is like Govt bonds in that it is a monetary asset and one could argue that if Bitcoin is successful then that increases the risk associated with holding Govt bonds. So it depends how you value Bitcoin. If you value Bitcoin in Bitcoin then it is a risk free asset provided the software holds up (it does seem pretty good). If you value Bitcoin in dollars then it is very risky as we all know but probably not highly correlated to other assets. One thing you can say is that any risky portfolio that does not include Bitcoin is likely to be inefficient relative to one that does include Bitcoin but an all Bitcoin portfolio is also inefficient.

Just made my finance lecturer proud.

I'm pretty sure the coin will rise in the long term but you never know what will happen short term.
A lot of people are now buying and holding, which I heard is actually a little bad for Bitcoin since it won't be adapted as a currency that much.
When the block sizes half  (in 2016)the price will definetly rise if I understood correctly.

It depends on how long you want to invest. Speaking about of couple of years-maybe. But as long time it’s unpredictable. I believe that government won’t allow bitcoin to replace current money.

Sorry I did not see the your infinity sign. But the answer is still no, if you are borrowing something less than infinity times your wealth to invest in Bitcoin and there is another portfolio which has a higher risk return relationship then you can borrow more to put into said portfolio and you will make more money for less risk. Only if Bitcoin is the highest returning asset in the market and you actually borrow infinity times your wealth to invest is it an efficient portfolio and then it depends on what rate you can borrow at.  

Most people feels like bitcoin is very risky but probably very profitable investment

I believe it's fairly safe, if you have a long term view, but a very speculative investment. I personally started investing after the Mt. Gox and China controversies didn't kill it. I've been buying through Coinbase when it gets down around $430. I'm also mining about 3 BTC/month. Also have a Kraken account and trading BTC to build to 1000 NMC and 500 LTC. Then I'll stop and see what happens.

The more I learn about BTC, the more I believe in it. It's one of many investments and I could lose all without it affecting my life style.

USA is the biggest of the world, and as far I can see their expenses are not getting lower(at least not lower enough). Only thing Obama does year after year is allowing the debt be bigger, that is, making a bigger and bigger ticking bomb.

The Euro zone has economic stagnation, with unbalanced public accounts and unemployment rates near 25%. And all interconnected (remember Portugal and Greece).


I don't believe that Euros and Dollars are safe investments. Plus the govs can't directly take bit-coins from wallets, and they can with most of all other investments. You know, desperate and full of debts govs have the bad habit of o stupid things like seize people's investing and savings when things gets ugly.

Investments are that things that pay dividends.  BTC is a speculation

how about gold? it doesn't pay dividends. so buy gold is not investment?
for long time holding, i think BTC is one of investment portofolio

Gold is a commodity and should be considered speculation as well.  There's no guarantee the price goes up.

I consider things to be investments are dividend paying stocks, bonds, rental property, income producing businesses

he probably Warren Buffet's follower. In some sense he is right, because with dividends one can get money from investing without having to sell their patrimony. But assets without dividends can be good for trading, like bitcoin indeed is, and enterprises that do not gives dividends have more money to invest, grow than have their papers more valuable.

Plus you can get interests in bitcoins. At least one exchange over there(cryptsy?) offers this service. Can this be considered a form of dividend?

Fiat is not a safe investment. Bitcoin is not a safe investment.

I'd say, there exists no such thing as a "safe" investment. Every investment involves risk.

In Bitcoin's case risk does not come from inflation but from technology/adoption. I would say Bitcoin involves a lot of risk and I would only invest what I can afford to loose. On the other hand the potential reward could be very high - so I would say one should not ignore Bitcoin as an investement either.

Bitcoin is far from being safe investment, the currency is "crazy" changed if you compare it to most of the companies stocks.

and thats why we all here.
for the option of a long shot world currency and the chance of being part of the "first ones" in case of success in this long shot chance.

Safe to use, but not at all safe as an investment.

If you look at the graph that Peter.R made showing Bitcoin's value over time you see that the value of Bitcoin increases with the square of the number of users and you see that Bitcoin's volatility decreases over time. Remember a 50% devaluation seems like a-lot now there was a time when Bitcoin went from $30 to $2. So as others have said it is probably safe on the fundamentals if you have a long enough time horizon. That is if you don't count regulatory and technical risks which are unpredictable at the moment.

The british central bank will never let the pound go under or the UK to go bankrupt.

The members of the euro zone are more or less screw on the long run, because they don't control the european central bank and probably they will never will (especially the small ones), but the UK? The british central bank will print the UK out of debt if that is necessary, as the FED will do. Yes, that will provoke inflation, but nothing like 8 or 10% inflation to erode debt.

Conclusion: if the goal is to have a safe haven, the pound is safer until things start to be out of control (and everybody will be able to see it coming months before); if the goal is to earn money, a wise investment in bitcoin (picking the right time to go in and go out) is a better choice.

It all depends.  How much money are we talking about?  How long of investment and what's the expected return?

If you wanna make 1000% percent return in one year then yes speculate because no investment will give you that kind of return.  However understand that you could also lose it all so don't bet your house on it.

If you want a guaranteed return in 10 years buy a bond.  If you have good credit and want monthly income buy a rental property and find tenants. Or buy a basket of dividend stocks and collect dividends.

Even for speculation I don't think BTC is as good as options because it's not easy to quantify risk.  And doesn't give you any flexibility

Hello from Bath!

Not if, but when. The govt. help to buy scheme + interest rate rise = new mortgage back debt crisis!

G.

This isn't quight right. The GBP can be printed but it will tank due to hyperinflation. As this shit hole we live in called the UK is not an exporter of goods, no one needs our pounds to buy anything + currency is free floating = GBP is dead.

'Murica is slightly different. Because 'murica has the petrodollar system creating artificial demand for the dollar it can print dollar and force it onto the balance sheets of other countrys (because they need dollars for oil) which is another was of forcing other countrys to pay american debt by having them hold an inflating currency (fuck them right?). This will lead to war at some point in time.

True story.

p.s. If Scotland breaks off, take the oil and forms a petro/gold backed currency, move there a.s.a.p.

The USA has been exporting their main commodity (the US dollar) for decades, living out of the expansion of the international commerce. Since the dollar is the main international currency, they can print out USDs with no risk of inflation as long as international trade increases.

But forget about wars. The idea that the USA went to war with Iraq because Saddam was saying he wouldn't accept USDs for its oil is a internet joke. The same can be said about the USA going to war with Russia or China because of their threats to dump the USD.

Your trolling me right?
Saddam didn't say he would price in Euros, he did price in Euros! And he was making 20% more than he would of been if he was pricing in dollars. Then boom! War on freedom terror kicks off, iraq invaded, and how long did it take 'murica to switch oil back to dollars?
Why are dollars used for international trade?
Bro, do you even petrodollar?

G.  

edit* USA didn't go to war to protect economic interests, it went to war to free iraqi people? is that what you actually beleive?

It's a terribly "unsafe" investment.  One reason, a successful 51% attack or other issue could conceivably break the system irreparably.  Another reason, government action could also cause a huge price drop.
It also has a some chance of making extreme gains.
I think it's pretty simple, invest only what you are comfortable losing.  If it happens to rise to some of the higher end predictions being made, your small investment would be worth a bunch anyway.  In that way it is very "safe", risk a little to potentially gain a large amount.

If you want to belive the USA invaded Iraq in 2003 because of the currency of iraqi oil, be my guest.
The reason was clear, the USA wanted to grab Iraqi oil reserves.
By the way, the United Nations "Oil for food Program" aproved by the Security Council, with the necessary consent of the USA, autorized Iraq to sell oil and those trades were mainly in euros until the end of the sanctions.
Several countries currently sell some oil in euros, including Venezuela, Angola, Iran, Russia or indonesia. They have to watch out for the imminent american invasion.

Are you telling me, that you believe, that 'murica, which has

A. The petrodollar system in under which OPEC sells oil only in dollars, and,
B. The ability to print as many dollars as they would like

would,

C. Invade Iraq because they wanted Iraq's physical reserves?

You don't get it mate. If 'murica makes Iraq sell oil in dollars, then it has their oil, because they can print dollars to wipe their ass with.

How long did it take for fucking 'murica to switch Iraq oil sales back to dollars even though Iraq lost out by not selling in the stronger Euro?

If 'murica gets the chance to spin some bullshit reason to go to war with anyone not selling oil in dollars, it will, it just needs to provoke some shit into happening then play the victim and whip up some nationalistic frenzy and their off again.

Iran is next. (because.... it's make WMDs? lolwtf. Because it's selling Oil for Gold and building a natural gas pipeline into Pakistan!)

If Opec stopped selling oil in dollars, 'murica would collapse.

1) You know the USA can't print any amount of USDs they want, that would enlarge the american huge trade deficit, cause depreciation of the USD, inflation and could affect the status of the USDs as the international currency. Therefore, buying oil with USDs means they can't buy so many BMWs from Germany or other goods. Since even to them the USDs is somehow scarce, buying with USDs or exchanging those USDs for euros to buy oil (everyone will accept the USDs gladly) doesn't change enough to justify war.

2) Bush son and Cheney were convinced that the easy oil to extract was ending and that an oil crisis was imminent (search Peak oil and Cheney), therefore having USDs or euros to pay for Iraqi oil wasn't enough assurance to have access to it.

I rest my case, feel free to think that the USA are willing to destroy their reputation and their citizens lives on a blatant invasion because of the currency an oil producer accepts to sell its oil. I won't return to this matter.

0.1 (History) The USD was backed, due to the Bretton Woods agreement, by gold. Nixon, said fuck you world, stole everyones gold and ceased the convertability of USD to gold.

0.2 (History) Realising no one would want the USD ever again, Nixon, a few years later, went to Saudi and said IF YOU AGREE TO ONLY SELL YOUR OIL IN DOLLARS, WE WILL PROTECT YOUR OIL FIELDS. Saudi's said fuck yeah best deal ever trololol, everyone else wanted in, now oil must be bought in dollars.

1. As long as other countries must hold US dollars to buy oil, the US can, and has, taken the fucking piss with it's spending and printing.

1.1 The US doesn't so much buy BMW's from Germany as Germany must export BMW's to the US to secure USD to buy oil, you have the whole thing backwards.

1.2 Bush and Cheney don't think. They are puppets and get told what to do.

1.3 The USA has no reputation bro.

1.4 Do you EVEN PETRODOLLAR? OMG!

1.5 Ignorance is bliss I guess.

it's not safe but profitable i think

The price is far below the value,so bitcoin is still a safe investment

How do you determine the value?

I would count on bitcoins myself ,I'm ready to take the risks even though it's charts are zigzaging violently  but it worth investing in it

I guess you also need to take into account the usefulness of the investment. For instance if there are things you can easily buy with bitcoin or you can use it to remit currency then it has value beyond pure speculation. For instance I have been trying to buy a boutique tequila for bitcoin for some time with no luck. If we reach a situation where that is easy to do then bit coins value to me will increase regardless of the dollar value.

I dont think that there are any chance of the bitcoins to collapse within next 3 years. and well i guess bitcoin is pretty stable right now and its the right time to invest in btc, cause in the long run, bitcoins will touch the 1000 mark again.

Bitcoin does fluctuate, but it's value is not as easily manipulated. I like how it won't be crushed in value due to hyperinflation like in other instances. It really has a good chance at a store of wealth and value. The altcoins will be used for purchase, and Bitcoin will be kept for investing long-term.

I think this hits the nail on the head. If Bitcoin becomes less volatile as the market matures and becomes deeper then bitcoin potentially becomes an alternative to money market assets. This would require Bitcoin to be regarded as free of technical risk so it is like a government bond with no default risk. Volatility in and of itself is not a problem, Long term low coupon Bonds can be extremely volatile if interest rates are fluctuating rapidly.

Government will do exchange control if their own fiat collapse. They will target gold, silver and ban bitcoin like many current governments are doing right now.

In time of crisis, daily necessity is more important than medium of exchange. I won't say holding bitcoin is a safe investment.

What is it you think the govnt. will do to silver and gold?

Bitcoin is backed by no legal authority.

I won't really considered it safe as fiat at least is backed by the government.

Spread your risk, invest in different things. You cannot count on the government at all times, they have scr*wed up in the financial system before.

I don't think treating bitcoin as an investment is a good idea.


There are better investment out there without this much risk.

It can be a good idea, depending on what your aim is at. Bitcoin can easily fluctuate +10$ or -10$ or more. You could take advantage of that fluctuation if you have a lot of money. Anyway, yes it is still an experiment.. but everything is a risk. Even to put money in a bank

And the government does a good job of backing it, right?

http://goldsilverworlds.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/long_term_value_US_dollar.gif

Never mind.

Depreciation of dollar occurred over a long period of time. Population were able to adjust to slow changes.

Long term capital investment projects take expected inflation into account to adjust operation cost and capital cost.


You can't really do estimation if bitcoin is used as a currency.

there is no such risk in long term holding for bitcoin, just HODL

daily trading on the other hand are risky of course, but lets the wahles play in that game

How man people live to 100? 

Wheres the chart of salary inflation?
Wheres the chart of housing prices?

Those variables are already reflected in the purchasing power of the dollar

No its not.

In the 80s my parents bought there first house for 45K.  They sold the same house in 2005 for 250K

In the 80s avg starter income was 16-20K.  Now its like 50-70K

The question is not whether Bitcoin is a safe investment, but is Bitcoin an investment at all? In normal circumstances, a currency can never act as a form of investment.

Bitcoins fluctuates :/ but I guess it would be safe to invest in bitcoins at least for next two years as I see the bitcoin is rising constantly.

Past performance is not an indicator of future success.

Plenty people live long enough to lose money this way.  The 100 in cash benefits your parents effectively give you when you are born is just 2 by the time you pass it on to your grandchildren.  Some people would prefer if that wealth was still 100, they should not keep dollars then.

Almost anything lasting in comparison looks better then 100 to 2 yet this is how gov alleges tax is due, by just keeping capital its avoiding inflation tax
This is a system opposite to capitalism which is capital controlled by the people, it is now controlled in a centralised system

I don't know anyone who keeps cash.  Like in a mattress?  Most people have an IRA or they have assets like real estate

Most of us know nobody can predict the future, but after watching the 2014 MIT Bitcoin Conference videos on YouTube I still see a lot of smart and successful people saying they believe and are building companies to support bitcoin and are personally investing. Richard Branson investing $30 M recently in BitPay adds to that. I personally have purchased about 20 BTC lately at prices between 4 and 5 hundred as an investment and mine about 3 BTC a month. But it's a small part of my overall investments.

To add a little humility, I also rewatched the guy in 2013 pushing Mt. Gox as the greatest thing that ever happened, recommending everyone open an account, and predicting 1 BTC would be worth $20,000 in 2014.

The more I learn about bitcoin, the more I'm impressed by its potential. Some is based on logic; some is faith.

Most people earn cash and keep at least some on average.  A pension is usually made up of bonds promising cash.   It is a policy done to discourage holding cash, as consumerism is supposed to help business more then saving.
Keep shares in companies operating globally should help yet all currencies are related to the dollar system and real estate should be good but as we know the majority of sales are backed by government.  So once again you have an inaccurate price and inflation meaning a purchase is not the bargain it could be

The Willy Report suggests otherwise.  There is evidence that suggests that MtGox did manipulate the market.

Yes

yes, i would agree that bitcoin has a very strong future because of a) its finite supply, b) its transportability and portability, and c) its extremely strong computing network. it is obviously risky, as it is a brand new asset class, but its fundamentals are extremely strong.

Well bitcoin is a form of both an asset and a currency so yes it is an investment(financial) cause it appreciates in value.

High dependency on technology should be seen as a weakness rather than a strength in time of crisis.

i would like to invest money on btc, i believe it will be a main currency in future.

I wish I could get all my friends to just put $10 into bitcoin, but I fear I would look like I have been brainwashed if I told them all.

It is a no brainer to take a punt in bitcoin with a small amount you can afford to loose anyway.

$10 in bitcoin can easily turn into $1000 later.

I definitely say Bitcoin is a save investment, especially if you hold it for a few years.
I'm happy that my brother is gonna buy 1 bitcoin and keep it for a few years.
So we will see!

All currencies will eventually return to its intrinsic value.

Bitcoin is one one the best world investments you could do in the last years, I think we will see other 4-5 bubbles before the price will find its place.

True but defining a currencies intrinsic value is relative to the economic inputs and the goods and services that can be exchanged for using the currency. Finding the intrinsic value can always be a mystery :)

Intrinsic would be a snipe on the fact bitcoin has no base exchangeable worth, so they are saying it will goto zero and/or be replaced.    Dollars are made from cotton, ditto just a comment on its priced value being far beyond its base worth.  Gold is an element, it will never be replaced so that would have intrinsic value at some level though some say its also overvalued, etc
Extrinsic, oppisite means not essential ie bitcoin cannot be argued to be essential

Thats circular logic imo.  Anything at all can make money.  I'll buy a jar of air from you for more then you bought it if I felt like.     A man made millions from selling pet rocks.  Can the owners said to have made an investment, the rocks did appreciate at least initially

I think investment is a (re)usable entity that returns a positive from the utility it provides.  Bitcoin maybe could be argued as unique and useful, its enabling business to take place globally that might otherwise be difficult.  However I would say its more of a commodity and the investment potential lies with the companies that utilise it not the bitcoin by itself.  
 Gold or silver are not investments, they have no return from themselves however they can be crafted to a product or they can allow stable business to be conducted similarly so that is utility but the investment return is in their use not the raw metal same with bitcoin. I dont think bitcoin gives a return only speculative gains from others activity, its an inverse relationship not direct investment similar to plain dollars

Is people's faith included in the "intrinsic" definition, that is, I know what people are willing to exchange the currency for and I have a certain amount of faith for that and that adds to the value of the currency?

I wholeheartedly feel that if you are looking at it from a long term standpoint that it is a safe investment.  I don't think it is that safe anymore to turn a huge profit in a few days...but then again no "safe" investment offers upwards of 25% appreciation in the short term (otherwise everyone would be doing it).

I am honestly look at my BTC holdings as another savings account, since I don't really ever sell, and I don't really buy all that much anymore (except during flash crashes)...

Whether Bitcoin is a safe investment or not also depends on the way you use it. Bitcoin parked in cold storage with a secure password and a backup in another location is a reasonably safe. Bitcoin on your laptop at home with a short password and no backup is just asking to be lost or stolen.

It's not safe buy I'm ready to take the risk ,Beside owning the coins (which is an investment itself ) I joined a HYIP program called CRYPTORY ,and so far I'm satisfied about it I'm getting my pay-outs daily
https://i.imgur.com/Dt8bX97.png

You are correct to understand some of the risks of holding UK pounds, however you are not correct to understand the risks of holding BTC.

It would be possible that someone creates a "better" (meaning adopted by a larger portion of the population) or a "fairer" (meaning perceived as more fair by the population) coin. Another possibility is that someone could find and exploit an unknown weakness in Bitcoin.

I would consider BTC to be highly speculative. I think it will go up in the long run, but this is not without risks.

The risk depends on your duration like any other investment as well, its definitely not a bond with a guaranteed return but nonetheless if you have time and patience it will probably be a very good investment.

Although Harley is right it depends on what innovations are created and how Bitcoin measures up in the long long term.

I am not sure if you want to invest in bitcoin due to the rapidly changing prices

Every investment can be volatile, bitcoin is actually less volatile on the down side now than it was when it dropped from 30 to 2 dollars back in the day. It does depend on your time horizon, for instance if you hold property, that market can trend in one direction for decades if you bought tokyo property at its peak you were not going to get your money back. Basically if your investment horizon is more than a couple of years with bitcoin you should be good as long as new people keep adopting it.