Bitcoin Forum

Hello, a lot of you have probably seen me around here more than once, generally saying something about provable fairness. I've looked into this for a while and the community really needs to understand what it is.

When provably fair was first implemented as an idea, people trusted it because it was backed by sound math. Nowadays when I see provably fair, it seems like it's more of a fake thing used as a selling point for people who don't understand it.

I'm not here to tell anybody how they should implement a provably fair system. Provable fairness is defined in its title in that it is able to prove beyond a doubt that no results are being manipulated by the operator of the service by using strong proven cryptography. It's not something you can add a bunch of random looking numbers to and say "It looks like its random, let's just leave it at that".

I know some of you have PM'd me asking for verifiers for your sites and I'm sorry I haven't gotten back to you, I've been swamped and have had little time for bitcoin things.

That being said, my main point in this thread is we as a community have begun to get lazy with this. There are sites out there that claim to be provably fair but are not. If you look through my trust I'm sure you'll find at least one.

I cannot protect everybody from these sites and people need to learn what constitutes true provable fairness. A couple easy checks could follow something like this:

• What variables are used to create the random roll? (I would say 90% of provably fair systems derive their results directly from a hash of a few things)
• Does the client control at least one of those variables?
• What does the server use as other input to a hash function? Is it something that they can change by a small amount, test to see if the new roll would benefit them and then substitute without the user knowing?

The above is a major point in which many people fail to look at

Again, I'm not here to tell people that they can't gamble where they want. If you win money from any site, congratulations. You may have won money or maybe you were just a part outside the extra few percent the owner manipulates.

Here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=582687.0) is a great example of abusing the term provably fair.

So finally I ask everyone here to please, please please please get somebody that knows what they're doing to look over the site for you, and tell you whether or not it's provably fair.

Bitcoin was created so that you could use strong cryptography to secure your money. Why would you go around and say you believe in that money only to use sites that don't use strong cryptography to prove themselves fair when there are so many out there?

Thank you, and please discuss.

Great information.....Thank You!

Interested in hearing your view on satoshiDice?

Thanks again!

Totally agree with you on this. The term is commonly used in Bitcoin gambling industry and brought us one step forward toward old and traditional casino (although technically it can be used in every casino). I believe this is one reason why players prefer to gamble in Bitcoin. Abusing this term will hurt people's trust in Bitcoin gambling.

However, I also believe that this case is inevitable, so in the end it is left to the players to look at the detail of provably fair method. What you (and other nice people I know such as mem, iram, mike, etc.) are doing now is the best we can do:

• Create trustable entity to "label" which sites are truly fair and which aren't.
• Educating players to know better of provably fair.

Thanks for creating this thread! :)

Definitely agree that it has become a gimmick to attract noob gamblers.  There should be action to single out the websites which aren't really provably fair and can potentially scam their customers.

Hi RGBKey,
I was one of the sites that PM'd you. I realise you are busy but if you ever do find the time let me know.

It would also be great if anyone else on here could review my provably fair implementation.

I admit I didn't have the games be provably fair for a while.
I started the site with poker (sure a lot of you know how difficult it is to have provably fair poker) and when I added Blackjack and then Dice I felt that people in the community knew I was trustworthy and with me being around this long things were fine and people would leave the feedback for others to see. I had the plan to add it in as a feature at a later date.

It was used by lots of sites that would close up and steal coins so it wasn't guaranteed to let people feel safe.

I realised quite quickly though that none of this mattered and it was vital that I made the games provably fair so people didn't need to trust me or others reviews and could just check themselves if anything funny was going on behind the scenes.

I think the response has been good and I wish I had done it from the beginning. Who knows, it may have even put some potential players off.

Thank you all for your responses.

thank You for bringing this up. what is really need that trusted people will put up a website or service to test gaming sites if they are really provably fair. I mean I would even pay for the service to be sure that I am not cheated before I lay down my coins on the table.
another service should also tell operators how to make it provably fair.

thanks again

I don't think this is the solution. It's *a* solution but any position where that person running that site could be bribed would be a bad idea. People just need to understand it more.

agree and dont agree  ;D

there are people out there who are trustworthy. the question is if they would like to take responsibility for this kind of service.
or there should be a standard for provably fair and all OP should implement it. I am not an  expert and therefore would like to see a service like this.

Whenever you see a site that says they are provably fair, please ask them to prove it. By definition, they should be able to. If they cannot or otherwise avoid the question, assume they are not provably fair and look to steal your money. A great example of this behavior is RitzGrandCasino, who is fond of making new accounts to dodge negative trust, and making all of their topics self moderated.

A perfect example on why you should not trust companies that censor things like this

I ask the if they are PF like You proposed, but I myself dont understand their explanation because I am a noob regarding PF.
what then?

thanks

Totally agree and support you RGB.  Many sites, including Ritz, claiming they are "provably fair" but they don't even know what this means. 

Is there a list of those "truly provably fair" and "bugged provable fair" gambling sites?

RGB, I made a new thread about it but was curious if you knew anything about the Itech Labs RNG that casinos using Soft swiss software are using. These websites only have a certificate from this company claiming fairness. Is this in anyway trustworthy? any info would be much appreciated.

Stuff outside of bitcoin isn't really my thing but it's pretty much trustworthy the same way banks are trustworthy, you're trusting someone else with a reputation.

oh i have only noticed them as being a bitcoin operation, some of these new sites are using them. Anyhow, thanks for the info.

I fully agree with the points you brought up. Provably fair is dangerous to gamblers as it gives them a truly false sense of security. I still feel there isn't a strong enough provably fair method for off-chain sites, the only site I feel is very provably fair is Satoshidice and I've heard of potential ways for them to game their system as well (I don't believe they ever have or would).

A while ago I spoke with someone who was working on "Provably fair II" but he never ended up finishing his work. Until there is some sort of stronger trustless system in place, users should only gamble on sites they personally trust. Also it is important to change your seeds and make them your own (if applicable) as frequently as possible and actually check your results. While we finish PD3 I'm open to any feedback on how we can create a more simple/secure provable fair system to the point where users will actually verify their rolls.

Ultimately even the strongest provably fair relies on the operator/website to not be a bad actor as virtually anything can be deleted or changed to enforce a "provable result". This all goes without saying that 90%+ of players do not even check the fairness of their rolls or only check them once.

I personally think provably fair while arguably much better than RNG is still very stupid and dangerous if not used properly. Right now provably fair is in its infancy, as this industry continues to grow it is inevitable that an open source standard will be created for all websites to abide by which will be watched over by third parties or the entire community. The main issue is that most users simply do not understand how provable fairness works, it confuses me as well still to an extent. There are infinite custom implementations of "provably fair" so it won't mean the same thing from site to site or even be provable in most instances, this is the issue this community is presented with.

What we need is a Proof of Trust algo lol.   :D

Bump, because there still is and always will be shills for sites that aren't provably fair.

I am being accused by RGBKey for being a shill for LN while trying to discuss the current provably fair system.

I never claimed that Lucky Number is provably fair.
My point is that the provably fair systems implemented in all dice websites don't protect the user 100% when it comes to fairness.

We need a new system.

I stick to my opinion and if you don't agree I would prefer you leaving me alone instead of calling me an idiot and leaving me negative trust.

There is no room for opinions here, only facts. Give facts as to how primedice and just-dice could scam their users if the users take the necessary steps.

There is no room for opinions in "An open discussion on Provably Fair" ?

If the users take the necessary steps no manipulation could take place, of course. What I said is that the system is not perfect and I agree with stunna that it's in its infancy.

Enforcing a provable result could be a good step.

I have also stated that I do not believe that PD or JD would ever manipulate anything.




I share this opinion.

In that case, maybe we can agree to help create a new way to do provable fairness.

why did this thread die?

I'd like to use this thread to discuss something.

Why do most sites, ie. PrimeDice, Dice.ninja, Dicebitco.in all loop through 5 hex characters (so a 0-1048575 number) of the hash and if it's lower than 1 million divide by 10,000 to get a 0-100 number, if not go to next 5 characters. Why not just divide by 10485.75 right away?

provably fair ...yea but lot of site use " Probably Fair " not provably fair  ;D

If the sites divide the number 0 - 1048575 by 10485.75 and round off the number, the chance of having a roll "<0.01" will be 104/1048576 = 0.00991821289% rather than 0.01%.

What if you don't round off and just take the amount of decimals you want? It seems I'm missing some basic math knowledge today :)

edit:

Hmm that doesn't seem to be right either.  Only 1048575 would yield 100.00 then while 0-104 would yield 0.00

edit2:

Of course for 0.01% chance I should do >99.98 or <0.01. Without rounding exactly 104 different numbers would yield a number 99.98 and exactly 104 numbers would be <0.01

So it's still provably fair if you don't round the numbers.

The problem is that the win chance will be slightly lower, or equivalently the house edge will be slightly higher than the advertised value.

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