Bitcoin Forum

Is it safe to come out again?

I say this because on Sunday we saw the very worst of the so called 'Bitcoin Community' (apologies to most on this forum as probably the silent majority also watched) on both this forum and Reddit where literally hundreds of vitriolic, aggressive, threatening etc posts / conversations were sprayed out left right and center attacking the CEX.IO / GHash.IO entity, including death and violence threats to owners / users of that service.

It was totally pathetic and to me it showed one very good reason why Bitcoin has a lot of growing up to do. No, not because of the 51% issue (yes that does need to be addressed, but by the industry participants / guardians of the Bitcoin protocol themselves collaboratively) but because of the type of poisonous rhetoric that came forth over the past day or so. Just imagine a newbie to crypto currency having a look at this new opportunity doing a bit of research on the so called informative forums to be presented with the type of crap that was seen. They would quickly retreat back to the 'Yeh Mt.Gox and angry trolls is what Bitcoin is all about to me'

How can we have an industry grow and encourage innovation and expect mainstream uptake when companies that offer services people want to use get attacked and vilified because they are doing a good job and attracting customers over and above their competitors. Lets all attack Intel they have too many processors in the computer ecosystem, lets all attack Apple they have far too many mobile phones in the mobile ecosystem.

So for me, Bitcoin Community needs to learn a lesson from this and look at a way of collaboratively addressing the underlying issue.

Bitcoin has in its community millions people, among the adopters there is a moltitude of individual's types, scammers / trusted / theft / others, Sunday you have seen the worst part.

Excellent post. The fear mongers screeching about this will scare many new users away. Of course as a community we pretty much treat new people like shit anyway for the most part.

This isn't so much a Bitcoin-specific thing as it is an internet-in-general thing.  Mainstream internet is basically a teenager prone to tantrums and foul language.  Reddit in particular has never struck me as a significant source of sophistication and civil tongues. 

I don't use reddit. They lost me when they decided to censor peoples political beliefs.

What posts? I barely noticed anything, mainly because I don't pay any attention to that kind of bullshit.

Honestly, we had the same rage about ASIC's awhile back if the longer term members remember, the reality is like with most 'board rage' over nothing it's about 20 people at most just spamming the shit out of the forums. It's only when you have thousands of people posting about it that you really need to worry.

Like with most rage surrounding Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies, most of it is unjustified, misinformed or just completely stupid, have faith in mathematics, not in emotions.

There was no need to hurl all those expletives at GHash.io (they will ignore them anyway). They have already stated that they have no intention of reaching the 51% hash power.

Here is an excerpt from their press release, a few months ago:

GHash.IO does not have any intentions to execute a 51% attack… it could risk our investments in physical hardware and we see no benefit from having 51% stake in mining

bitcoin brings out the worst of people, and the worst people.
alot of people who are jobless and need money.
nothing wrong with not having a job, but using this forum as your source of income... well that is another issue.
but yeah it has the potential to bring out degenerates who are here to scam and make a quick buck, or 10000000 bucks as has been the case with alot of scammers :(

In most part, your post is correct, but you have few errors that i would like to straight.

1) Yes, ppl are somethimes assholes. Well, truth be told, they are assholes most of the time. Whoever can't filter assholes from real stuff will have problem with anything online, not only BTC. I agree that BTC needs special kind of asshole / fud filter in place.
With that in mind, you should remember that 51% attack is direct attack on someones assets (your, mine, whoever has any BTC). It can render BTC useless or even kill it. So when threat appears that could damage so many, it's normaly that people that are assholes in their nature, go to turbo mode just to survive.
I wouldn't blame it on them (people) tho. 51% attack can be prevented on software side like some other alt coins. So basicly, what needs to be done, is to channel all that energy into improving BTC. making push on to devs to prevent 51% attack from evenr happening from software side.
What ghas.io situation is showing is that ASIC's are NOT good keepers of BTC network safety. Safety should be enforced on software side. Solutions are all around (some altoins), it's just question of will to implement them.
2) It's not Intel that has too many processors. It's ARM (google it, you'll find it really interesting).
3) Apple...really? Apple? No m8...again, it's Samsung. Apple lost it few years ago...it's Samsung now...

Luckily I missed that little storm.

Since there have been no flames in the topic as of yet I reckon it's "safe" for now.

@SecureErase Its normal buddy. When a million people are dealing with a Billion dollar economy, it is expected. Look, now as Ghash.io is down to 32% in last 24 hours and Bitcoin is trading below 650 USD, everything is so calm :)

Yeah I missed it too. How big was this? I saw a post last night and commented - after all it is not for the good of the community that any pool have 51%.  The pool itself is compromising bitcoin by permitting this. That's not competition anymore.
Still, you've gotta love our community. We lash out sometimes, we have trolls to deal with other times, but hey - when I want a good opinion on bitcoin I come here and I know I'm gonna hear what people really think.
Even when I'm busy and I want to see if it is a good bitcoin day or a bad bitcoin day, I skim through the titles to see the general mood.
But yeah.. we should be nice to everybody.

That is right.No one should look at this so bad,it happends all the time.Few bad things,a lot of good things.

Nothing to see here people, move along, move along.

Seems to be safe again  ;)

The funny thing is that we are joining bitcoin because it's decentralized, but we still tend to prefer using the biggest exchange, the biggest pool, the biggest wallet. Etc

In essence we are centralizing a decentralized system by picking a favorite.

To truly keep bitcoin decentralized we should encourage competition. However to have competitors succeed the competitors should offer at least similar benefits than the most popular one, which can sometimes be hard.

+1
and thats why a true bitcoiner SHOULD complain when something is at risk of being centralised and controlled.

sitting back and letting things happen should be kept for the FIAT sheeple. although i never thought ghash had any intentions of doing anything nasty if/when they reach atleast 51% control, it should still be noted that we need to keep the network split apart between many pools.

and as a personal note although i seen not that many actually insult ghash the other day i do like and find very amusing how the OP himself whinges about others whinging. and insults others for insulting. which makes himself part of his own problem.

the problem in is eyes is that we are all individuals, with our own opinions and own self control not paid PR staff with a single agenda.. which to me is the solution, not the problem

Bingo!
They say history repeats itself. Left to our utmost freedom we end up centralizing, We end up pushing the difficulty higher and higher because WE want to have the fastest miner, and it's a matter of time before we have bitcoin banks.

this thread is over now.

The reason the rhetoric became so barbaric and horrifying is because in capitalism, most people value money more than they value life (http://appealinglybrief.com/2013/08/11/how-much-is-a-life-or-a-leg-arm-finger-worth/) (human included).

I saw the same thing happen in the physical world of my community (NYC) during the last gas crisis. People threatening each other, fist fights, one guy even pulled a gun on someone at a gas station.

If humanity is going to survive the 21st century, we need to abandon all violence and instead turn to reason to solve our problems. Like it or not, that means moving beyond capitalism and the nation-state, both of which rely on systemic, hierarchical violence to exist. Remember, our world is a zero-sum game between reason and violence. As one increases, the other diminishes.

Let's choose reason - let's choose life, fellow humans. Humanity can do better than war. Humanity can do better than poverty and starvation. Humanity can do better than capitalism.

Related: How much is a life worth? (http://www.nationaljournal.com/magazine/how-much-is-a-life-worth-20130801)
Related: Sunset of the State (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLCEXtpTNYU)
Related: The Long Reach of Reason (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk7gKixqVNU)
Related: Capitalism Hits the Fan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZU3wfjtIJY)
Related: The World Peace Game (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_UTgoPUTLQ#t=7m15s)
Related: Alternative Economy Cultures (http://vimeo.com/4041228)

Human nature evolved to be what it is today so we could survive what our surroundings (other humans and rest of the nature) throws at us. It's nature's way (survival of the strongest) that make us do alot of things that we shouldnt do. It's our nature and it's hard to change (not saying that we cant or should not change, just saying that it's hard). But what we can easy do is change world around us, in this case BTC ecosystem. If BTC was to be changed to penalize big pools, or to reward p2p pools or something else, our biggest problem would be resolved.
There are so many good solutions to problems that BTC has, but noone cares to implement them.

Instead of "protecting network" with hardware, we should protect it with software. Instead of fixing problems caused by software, with software, we fix them with hardware etc. But hey...as long as hardware companys have as much influence on BTC development as they do have now, norhing will change. Humans will be humans.

Yup, Reddit and Doge go hand in hand, like Dumb and Dumber.

Wait.   Lets regroup:

How long are we going to keep saying "This needs to be addressed" ?

Who is the person that is supposed to address it?

Where has that person / group placed this issue in the queue?

This is one of those things that people keep saying we need to address, but it never gets addressed.

Why is that?

What steps are being taken to fix the lack of progress?

If its the core dev team, they have a process in place for reporting issues, changes, enhancements.   Where is this specific issue in that queue?

If its the miners, then who is organizing the communication and putting together a process to get a concensus and get this resolved now?

Decentralized systems don't have a central organizing entity for situations like this. 

-B-

Uh, okay.

bitcoin is supposed to be about people who question authority, but i see a lot of mob mentality with bitcoiners.

nah bitcoin is not about questioning authority. its about knowing authorities will only reply with lies.

so instead, bitcoiners make their own rules that dont need outside control. doesnt need anyone owning us. where we do the research, we do the decision making and we form our own opinions, and help out who we think we want to help out

Was I dead, or did I not see everyone in the Bitcoin community taking part in this? There's around a million people or so in Bitcoin right now. Whoever you saw doing it was probably a small fraction, considering, I go on Reddit and on here and didn't see anything of the sorts.


Yup, every Bitcoiner has 'mob mentality'.  ::) You deserve a medal, or better, a Citizen Kane clapping GIF.

Reddit is terrible. I hate that place. It seems its always the most aggressive that gets noticed and it's a shame.

Sad but true.  This I fear will be the reality of bitcoin...hard to keep so precious a thing decentralized for long.

They also like to shut down political discourse that disagrees with the residents of their echo chamber. No thanks.

Every population needs to deal with their criminals. its not the bitcoins problem. its the humanity

It's safe again! No worries

QFT (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGwQ8gojZA0).

They lie because they believe themselves to be our masters, by right of their fancy titles and elections won by marketing teams. They back up this authority with violence.

I disagree, and I say any government is an unjust tyrant if they must rely on force instead of reason.

"Whoever lays his hand on me to govern me is a usurper and tyrant, and I declare him my enemy."
-Pierre Joseph Proudhon

"To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be place[d] under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality."
-Pierre Joseph Proudhon, 1851, from The General Idea of the Revolution in the Nineteenth Century

hope is to increase adoption in order to dilute the Bitcoin community so that it is no worse than the average American

As an average American I think we should aim higher.  ;D

What is your definition of Capitalism?
Are you against free markets?

More like the average citizen. Why would you just center out on 'the average American' or any Nationality in general? They're still human beings, some human beings are 'worse'. I don't get how comparing it to a 'average' American works out?

Because those whinging about how 'this needs to be fixed' would rather whinge than act.

By we need to fix this they generally mean someone else needs to fix it. I don't see a lot of coders among the whiners.

I'm finding the same thing. And r/bitcoin is no different. The admins will heap together downvotes on stories that they would prefer to not see on the front page or just delete threads altogether. Don't call something a community when it is really an oligarchy. Information should be left to it's own merits, and admins and mods should see only that the forum rules and etiquette be followed. Information filtering/censorship is wrong and damaging for the community.

It's good that schools got computers for the kids to learn on in the 90's, but you should have to pass an internet ethics course before being allowed to use the internet ;). The conversation can deteriorate into what sounds like Halo or Call of Duty gaming chat rather quickly. It is frustrating.

Disclaimer: I still read reddit.

Doge is a scam currency (http://trilema.com/2014/why-dogecoin-is-a-scam-why-the-people-pushing-it-are-assholes-why-business-insider-is-a-contemptible-piece-of-shit-why-anyone-who-ever-worked-for-it-will-be-dancing-in-the-street-for-nickels-and-wh/), just like the dollar.

There's a reason for that (https://www.johntaylorgatto.com/bookstore/dumbdnblum1.htm). It's no accident that Americans have stunted maturity.

Umm... LOL? Do you realize what a Oligarchy is/was? I doubt the Admins of r/bitcoin would be so hellbent rich and voting down votes because, it's a Oligarchy people!

Isn't that irrelevant itself? Going on to a new topic whilst talking about this Oligarchy?


Anyway, back on saying 'reddit'  'Reddit' is terrible. I love how you guys are just giving one example, which is r/bitcoin, and saying ALL of Reddit is terrible. There's so many subreddits on Reddit, that you can barely count. Yet, you speak of each one questioning the 'Politicial beliefs'.

Oh yes, every Subreddit, including r/trees, r/gonewild, r/NoSleep, r/NoSleep Butler, r/Gaming, and hell, even r/WTF, too, huh?

Because that's totally not a invalid generalization, and guess what? Now everybody over at 4Chan never fight with each other. Oh, and yes, everyone in the Bitcoin community are blood thirsty scammers looking for another buck.  ::)

EDIT: r/LetsNotMeet is now the leader of their 'Oligarchy'.

Athene's theory of everything/Why he quit LOL has a good bit on why he left reddit, a good listen.

People get scared that their bitcoins will lose value. It's like a mother with her child. Protect it as far as possible.

It's been this way from the beginning, and it's something I addressed in another thread. For newbies this currency is a nightmare, I made a post about it on reddit how everyone should at least get ONE shot. Who has the money now to buy a fancy ASIC rig? Who knows why one person might need a loan, or might need help with people chipping in to refund his life (me for example) why are people so hypocritical and cynical about this? So many people are quick to say "bitcoin is the wave of the future jump on" and then turn around and say "but don't bother me about it". We should be trying to help one another, I don't think the community or BTC in general is going to get anywhere if something like this keeps up. It's kind of annoying that when somebody is actually in need, the community in general thinks it's a scam of some sort. I understand the need to see where their investment is going, but I'm not going to jump through hoops to show somebody that I'm actually trying to rebuild my life.

BTC will never grow up, I'm surprised it's even still around. In 2011 when I discovered it it was 14 dollars a coin, I couldn't buy any then. I had to make a loaf of bread last me over a week. I was worried if I could get my medicines or if I could pay my bills. If you don't want to believe that, that's fine. But that's poverty. I tried with my little atom notebook to mine and it was just NOT profitable. Now? The only way to get btc is if you buy it (600 a btc no thanks) run sig campaigns or I don't know. Nobody is willing to let go and be charitable to newbies or people in general.

I thought we all supposed to help each other here?

All of these new cryptocurrencies and altcoins coming out, who's going to profit off of that? Certainly not me. Certainly not some new guy with a couple of asic's who thought they would be good to run for altcoin. No, those who were early adopters will sit amongst the top while those of us scrapping the barrel looking for help will be left fending for themselves. The rich will stay rich and the poor will continue to stay poor.

You could spend $250 on a notebook. You were on the internet. You had time to play around with bitcoin.

You had food, water, education. You were getting your medicine so you also enjoyed healthcare. Did you actually at any time fail to pay for any of your basic needs?

Many people in the world would consider you rich.


On the side: mining bitcoin in 2011 was not profitable? Look how much the coins you (could have) mined then are (would have been) worth now. It wouldn't have earned you money in 1 week. But the returns over 2 years would have been significant. Yes, there is a risk. People generally don't earn money without significant effort or taking risk.

once again, you completely missed the point.
in 2011, I was not in the position to do anything but make sure that every living expense I had was spent on making sure I still had a roof over my head, insecurities or taking risks or not, when you aren't sure if your going to be evicted, or if you have running water the next morning, that's when you don't tend to take internet risks on things you don't know much about.

And if I remember correctly, which I usually do. My little Dell Atom Notebook was getting 20mh/s while everyone had their Radeon xyz 20932902's and I was maybe making 0.1 CENT a day. So no, I definitely wasn't making any money off of bitcoin, and no that's not what I would consider rich at all.

And you miss the point of my post. You managed to pay for all your basic needs and a notebook plus internet. Now consider how many people cannot pay for their basic needs. Then reconsider stating that you live in poverty. In my opinion you may not have been well off, but you were not in poverty.

I guess then that we have different opinions on what poverty is. I know people have and have had it worse than myself. I've been lucky in the past to at least have a place to call my own and some internet, the computer was actually gifted to me and it was on it's last legs so mining was even risky. Poverty to me is exactly where I was, and now? Now I'm floating trying to keep my head above water and it's not happening. The community is very harsh about people who are in these circumstances, they feel as if people like myself are looking to scam them or other's out of money. That's not the point, I have no idea to scam anybody. I have no desire to, but I would like some help. Making 30 bucks every other week on a sig campaign isn't going to rebuild my life fast. It might not rebuild me at all. But I sure as hell don't think it's fair that people are holding large sums of this and I can't even rub 2 pennies together. Free internet/roof or not, that's not fair. It's not mine. I want something that's "mine" I want to be independent. I don't want to rely on others, but I can't do that by myself right now.

Poverty in the US has clearly been redefined.  The traditional definition holds true outside the US.

It's not something limited to solely Bitcoin - it is simply a part of human nature. No matter what you do you're going to have haters from people who are scared that a 51% percent attack will lower the value of their holdings and hence get angry and disabused when we get close to that as it has the potential of dropping the price like a stone.

I don't think anything is going to change, no matter what some individuals try to do - you simply cannot change human nature by yourself.

I'm not wealthy either, but I definitely do not consider myself poor. I don't feel that it's unfair for some people being (extremely) rich *if* they have gathered their possessions in a fair way. Everyone that mined large amounts of bitcoin in 2009 and sat on them until 2013 cashing out at $1000+ dollar got their wealth fair in my book. Anyone setting up an exchange, holding large amounts of other peoples bitcoins and then taking them for themselves did not gain their wealth fair. I don't judge on having (or not having) something as fair. Gaining or losing something can be though.

Also I don't consider myself a victim and I don't feel entitled to other people's wealth. Though if anyone out there wants to share some wealth with me (instead of with say, skottiejay) I will not complain either :P


I guess so. In the city I live there are people in slums without running water. But they do have television, some even satelite. I guess it's hard to define poverty. We live in a weird world.

Agree %100