Bitcoin Forum

So, you've got all your precious Bitcoins locked up
in cold storage... you've take all technical procautions...

but then a gunman breaks into your house and says
he's gonna shoot you in the face unless you turn
over your private keys.

You could try to thwart this by preparing a decoy wallet
or two, but do you trust yourself not to buckle under
the pressure?

My solution:

You have a transaction already loaded which sends most
of your cold storage funds off to another secret wallet
which you have the keys to in a safe deposit box.

When the gunman breaks in, you hit a button, and
boom, the transaction is broadcast, you no longer
have your coins there.

Or, if you are caught off guard, you say, sure you
can have my coins, let me login... you "login"
or access a secret URL, and it whisks away
your coins to saftey while giving a decoy address...
If under pressure later, you can reveal the other
address, but now its too late, the coins are gone.

thoughts?

The whole gunman breaking into your house thing is absurd. How does gunman know which house to break in?

This scenario sounds like fear-mongering pro-gun fiction. If you have any real wealth stored in a paper wallet it belongs in a safety deposit box anyway, not in your home. They are very affordable.

Bro... you are weird.

True, they wouldnt know you had coins
necessarily but they might... didnt you
say you threw bitcoin parties?  Now
people know you have coins.

What if your coins are in a brain wallet?
Aren't yours?

after you've been whipped 100 times by
a rubber hose, the security of that wallet
is in serious jeopardy.

wow your definetly on the cranberry juice tonight arnt you.

heres some actual advice. in reality, if you hide your wallet or move it, do you think the rubber whip idiot will just walk away with a merry song between his lips and a graceful skip in his step. nope, e will know that you would not send them to a stranger, he will know that the new location is also controlled by you.. so expect more pain..

have a nice night

mmmm cranberry juice....

I don't think you got my vision...
they wouldn't know you sent the
coins to anyone else... all they
would see is a DIFFERENT account
with a small amount of coins.

Never mind... if you don't understand
or dont get it i dont have time to explain
it to you, sorry :)

Just remember, when people start
talking about people getting tortured
for their private keys, you can say
good ol Jonald Fyookball had a solution.

Tell the gunman that some of your addresses are booby trapped. If they are moved, then a bounty is setup to trace the spender and kill that person. Then tell him to have a nice night.

If someone is threatening you physical harm it is almost always advisable to do as they say (at least when it appears plausible that they could actually inflict such harm)

that's still absurd. when was the last time you heard that a multi-millionare got robbed?

If you're really worried about this scenario why don't you just keep your cold storage in a safety deposit box?

i do understand .. but you dont grasp the reality, hense my little joke about the cranberry juice
if someone is coming to your house
1. they know you have more then satoshi dust
2. they done enough research to find you
3. if all you give them is the dust, they know your stock pile is somewhere else and that your not dumb enough to send it to a stranger..

so 4.
expect more pain.
5. even if you say the address you sent it to was someone else. you will have more repeats of (4)

the only solution is to not be so public about your riches, especially about where you live.. as the guy that just broke into your house wont walk away singing a merry tune unless he gets ALL that he came for..

Well you can explain it's in a multisig wallet, 2 of 3 and you literally can't give him any coins.

That's the solution that's been proposed before.  Yet with multisig you lose your
own flexibility , so this is kind of best of both worlds by instantly converting
Your brain wallet to multi sig or other off site storage.

Not many people trust this, but PVC pipe makes a hell of an impact weapon.  It's light, solid, and easy to wield in enclosed spaces such as your entryway.  Now the booger has a gun, right?  I'll be taking that gun and raising the ante by knotting up his head just as fast as rabbits can breed.  And that is truly very fast, folks.  So, once the booger has been rabbit thrashed, I'll make a deal with him.  I call the cops and make his soon to be nickname at the jailhouse official (Rabbit Punch), or a Ill decline and auction his weapon off for a small BTC fee plus any damage occurring during the incident. Sounds fair enough to my emotional pain and suffering.

It's a thought exercise people, stop giving this guy so much flak!

:P

And hold your pinky to your mouth and do an evil laugh

I don't exactly advertise the fact that I have bitcoins. People that flash their wealth around are generally the ones targeted for something like this.

sounds almost like Plausible deniability in that case the plausible is the small amount sent automatically from your "smart safe"   ;D

yes, just sounds.

So the gunman will kidnap you and torture you, until you send your bitcoin to their address

Yes that's the problem this solves

no matter what excuse you say. expect pain
no matter if you have it in multisig. expect pain
no matter if you have it on a secure exchange/cloud wallet. expect pain
no matter if you have it as a brain wallet. expect pain
no matter if you have it in a banks safety deposit box. expect pain.

no matter where you have it or how its stored, anyone that knows your a bitcoiner, and obviously knows you had X coins to be worthy of travelling to you, to risk jail time, wont skip gracefully away purely because you say you dont have access.

they are your coins. you wont lose access, you would just secure them. so expect pain until you relinquish your security.

no bitcoin security technology can prevent a psychopath from slapping you with a rubber hose until you give in

summary:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/security.png

The first ios Bitcoin wallet app (called BitPak, with a k) had that feature years ago. It also downloaded the entire blockchain to your phone.

But yes, your idea is a good one and is worth repeating to wallet devs.

I have much better solution than OP.

You buy / build one of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxBa5bQfTGc#t=87

You make it so it's un front / back of your house (ok maybe you need 2 of those) and make it so it's underground / cowered with fake grass. Once burglar comes in and asks for your keys / fiat / gold / whatever, you act like you'r sacred as hell ( and probably you are because of that gun he's holding in his hand) and let him take whatever he wants. Than once he leaves you press "panic" button, and turrets activate. Cameras wait for burgler to come to middle of the ground betwean "fence" and house, than turret pops out and shoots motherfucker with something more than paintball balls. Dont use something that could kill human beaing, just criple him and/or disable. Than you get out of your house with baseball bat and finish the job, returning your belongings and give some payback too.

No, my BTC are safe, but I appreciate your concern. I'm not the kind of person you fuck around with, and everyone in my city knows it. Anyone who doesn't would swiftly and seriously regret their ignorance.

Anyway I was smart enough to move 95% of my BTC out of the brain wallet and into 3 safety deposit boxes of 3 of my most trusted loved ones. Or maybe I'm lying. Guess you'll never know till you make the suicidal journey to my house!

http://37.media.tumblr.com/0a390eeea265b3fef7dd291ca56a812c/tumblr_mov81k1RpI1rylr5to1_500.gif

What about those "outside" your city that are even tougher? You do realize that for every "tough" guy, there is someone "tougher"? Playing it on "i'm tough" get's you fucked up sooner or later.

Your logic does not compute. New York is the toughest city, and I am the toughest guy in it. I therefore win this infantile e-toughness battle. Now grow the hell up and discuss something worthwhile.

If someone is willing to risk jailtime to get your bitcoins, then that guy must really need it! I'd say, just give it to him. No need to deny someone, who need it so badly, the access to your coins.

Oh sorry, i didint mean to insult. I didint even dream you'r fron New Your...if i knew i'd just shut up andwrite something more serious about this topic...like few posts abowe....jeez...

Or just give him your bitcoins and survive the encounter.  I would not want to anger someone who has broken into my home. Depends on whether you value money or your life more.

It's true, the simplest thing to do would be hand over control of the coins (if even possible - it really shouldn't be in your home), and immediately call the cops. Also go public with what happened to the Bitcoin community.

You'd have your coins back within a few days, I suspect. Remember, Bitcoin has a lot of white hat hackers watching out for theft and making sure thieves don't get away with it. They do this because it strengthens Bitcoin.

Real solution to Rubber Hose attack? Coinbase.com

coinbase is just another mtgox... no one can guarantee which day the CEO will finally snap and get greedy.

it took institutional banks in cypus not many decades to become greedy.
governments were always greedy.
even the US marshals publicly selling drug money this year are showing their greed instead of destroying assets.

no technology can prevent greed. and no technology can stop a human from grabbing a hammer to get what they want.
take the music industry. nothing can stop the human element from trying to get free music..

::)
Bitcoins aren't illegal, and they are valuable. Just like seized cash, houses, and cars that were used in crime, there is no good reason to destroy them when they can keep or sell them. It would be incredibly wasteful, even for a gov't, to do so. They're not showing greed, they're showing a bit of common sense.

Back on topic, though: there's no foolproof solution to a rubber hose attack, but a safe deposit box at a bank would be a good start. If possible, instruct the bank that (except in the event of your death) only you, unaccompanied, are permitted to access the box. This would mean that your attacker would have to leave you alone in the bank, giving you an opportunity to alert the police, or escape him completely.

What if the gunman opens blockchain.info searches your address and sees what you've just done?
How would you explain that to your kids, which will probably be killed by then?

i understand that part. but that produces the greed that they can earn money not from finding rapists, but by raiding houses for assets....
.. see the future snowball effect that began decades ago rape conviction rate under 5% due to lack of evidence (even with sperm samples found).. financial crimes high percentage, even without video evidence that human being was at the physical computer attached to the web service, where the human does not sell drugs personally. just offers an ebay platform.

(kinda weird im even saying that as i hate drug dealers and morally low people)

but governments are more interested in money then actual crimes that have actual victims who suffer actual pain

If he knows how to use blockchain.info he is probably from this forum, which means he is probs non violent.
give him some food and fresh set of clothes and send him on his way.

In all seriousness.. What you said is basically spot on. I'm sure people will say oh i'll do this or i'll do that... but at the end of the day... you cant do shit.
you forgot password ? bam kid #1 dead... still forgot ya password ?

The type of people that break into houses while the homeowners are still there, are more worried about big screen TV's and prescription pills. These are not intelligent people, mainly the type that do crack/meth on a regular basis and have been in and out of jail their whole life. I do not think they care about bitcoin or even know what it is.

Actually, if someone is threatening you with physical harm, I advise to aim for the head. I live in Texas though. Here most people know better than to threaten someone. Too bad more of the world isn't like it is here.

Exactly.

Very hard for a thief to get at your coins when they are in a safe deposit box.

The only problem with that is that you are now depending on getting into
that box yourself , which although unlikely, could theoertically become a problem,
and also would be impossible to access if say, you were overseas, and wanted to get
some coins.

My idea is that you have the portability of the brain wallet but you can
instantly transfer that wealth to the safe deposit box at the push of
a button.

I'm a little bit surprised that no one so far thinks this is clever, or
at least useful.

In the future, say, 20-30 years when household robots are common
place, you could have your robot move the funds using a secret
passphrase if you were ever attacked.

Exactly.

That's why you make it impossible for yourself to give in by
transferring the coins to the safe deposit box.

Report the assault to the police. They will track the bitcoins being spent and arrest the mugger.

Franky I've always respected your opinions and insights on this forum, on most days you are a very valuable community member here. But on this matter I could not possibly disagree more strongly.
I have been there, visited the headquarters. Coinbase.com is legit, they have the foresight to understand that building a solid reputation today will be worth billions tomorrow. They will never gox us, they're smarter than that. They share our vision of a more peaceful world.

Coinbase.com will be around for a long, long time. And they will always have my business, and I will always speak well of them to any who ask for my advice.

As for all the children spinning theories about gunmen and rubber hoses, please grow up and realize most people will never accept the level of risk required to rob people at gunpoint - putting one's life and freedom on the line for a SLIM CHANCE at getting rich?
That kind of insanity is for the desperate only, and these days the desperate don't have access to guns. They're certainly not better equipped than the average police department, and sure as HELL can't compete with the 10,000 heavily-armed soldiers of the NYPD.

That depends if you are a "doer" or a "don'ter". (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1980209/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2)  ;D

Underground sentry guns...i'm telling you guys...they solve your "home" problems...

Drones. We need drones.

people were saying the same speech about mtgox in 2012.. NEVER trust third party solutions with al your wealth for long periods. it may take 10 years, 20 years, it may take a total change over of management before it happens, but never have blind trust in a business.. its your money, you should keep your funds secure

Have sex with the gunman, get pregnant and then sue him for child support.  You get all your bitcoins back.

What you need is a few of these.
http://protonsforbreakfast.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/dr-who-dalek.jpg

Failing that, have a foolproof way to secretly call the police while you deal with the gunman. Make sure your floors are all boobytrapped (and your family knows about the booby traps). Have some way that you can be 99% sure that you will never reach that point and you'll probably be fine.

Ok.  I slowly get up, and quickly throw my phone at his face.  Pass me the d20!

in all possible solutions.. even moving funds during being held hostage, multisig, safety deposit boxes etc.

the guy is still in your house and knows you still have control of your funds. he knows you would rather give him the funds .. eventually .. rather then send them to an address with no known privkey (losing control yourself knowing you will never get them back ever).

so he will hammer you until he gets the multisig, privkey, safety deposit key, privkey where funds were diverted to.

i guess the cartoon did no explain that enough

lol

He can't get into the deposit box. 
Maybe your bank just let's anyone waltz into the vault. Mine doesn't.

And no , I would rather destroy the funds than let the thief have them.

destroy the funds for ever?? then if the intruder was caught. there is no evidence that he ever took anything, and your out of pocket.
or...OR
give him the funds and if caught there is proof he took something, meaning he is not released, and you have a chance of getting funds back.

zero chance, 100% loss= no.. small chance, small chance of return=yes

imagine it this way you have a stack of bank notes on a table. you hear the police sirens coming. do you burn the bank notes so the thief cant get them. or do you let them have them, then try to do something to delay him running off and hope the cops get him, so you can get your money back..

I'm not saying anyone should destroy funds.

You instantly send them from brain wallet to safe deposit box
Where it's arguably harder to steal or coerce them.

Not that complicated of a concept.

Here's the deal. All these Fortune 500 guys walk around without any problems whatsoever. Sure, they may use security, or not, but it's all relative to the risk / threat. Why aren't people beating them with rubber hoses every day?

How ever, I can see a great use. Can you build an app that will quickly "vanish" my Nike's and leave me standing in my white socks? It would be great to avoid being shot dead.

Why not just build a panic room?  ;D

http://www.thefilmjournal.com/images/panicroom.jpg

Multi-sig custody where >1 signature is required to transfer XBT. Kinda like travelers checks that required two signatures to spend (remember those)?

One could automate this with a program to verify one's location and provide a co-signature. It's also possible that someone could integrate this into web wallets to provide more secure "banking" options.

I like this idea.  Although proof of location can be spoofed fairly easily.  I think there discussions a out proof of location using ping response latency but sounds unreliable.

This is exactly true. If you are in physical danger there is no reason to try to protect you money/bitcoin.

Money can be replaced, your life cannot.

If you can sufficiently trade the money then you can use the police to catch the people who would steal from you.

I still think this makes it much more clear!

I have to disagree, at least partially.

People "refuse to negotiate with terrorists" for a reason.
And that reason, is that if everyone just gave in, terrorism
would run rampant.  By setting a precedent of refusal,
the motivation to try to steal is diminished and everyone
is safer.

Now, if someone demands my (fiat) wallet and
wields a weapon, i'll  hand it over.

But I will not turn over all my cold storage to terrorists,
even if they threaten my family.   

Prove it. How do you know death is not simply a reset button where you get to start over?

You don't know, and neither do I. I find your fear of death to be irrational, especially in light of the known suffering of existence.

http://www.mtv.com/crop-images/2014/01/13/onlyonehell.gif

You may get to start over but you can't take your bitcoins with you.
 :)

jumping to the other side of the opinion fence....

if you can remember your previous life, after being re-incarnated.. technically you may remember a brainwallet!  ;D  ;D

I agree with the idea with heavy modification.

A lying gui with secret functionality is my takeaway from this.

Press the secret button, enter password and then the qt starts lying.

Hopefully you won't be killed just for money in the process.

It's Possible.

I knew one spiritual teacher who claims to have been a pirate in a past life and remembers location of buried treasure.

Close. That's probably good for up to 10k... maybe $100k. But when the stakes get higher, the the chances of collution become more likely. Especially when the secondary signer can see the amount in question.

The advantages of a generic physical storage system is the holder cannot see the amount in question, and will not even know if the medium (paper, stone engraving, snapshot with special encoding) contains valuable data, nor the format of the data (half a brain wallet passkey, picture files containing hidden encrypted data, or simply a clue for relatives to decrypt on the event of your death).

Do you know anyone who got to "start over" when they died?

If if I were to accept your argument that is would be a possibility, if you really started over then your bitcoin would be lost regardless.