solution to rubber hose attacks

[franky1]

Yes that's the problem this solves

no matter what excuse you say. expect pain
no matter if you have it in multisig. expect pain
no matter if you have it on a secure exchange/cloud wallet. expect pain
no matter if you have it as a brain wallet. expect pain
no matter if you have it in a banks safety deposit box. expect pain.

no matter where you have it or how its stored, anyone that knows your a bitcoiner, and obviously knows you had X coins to be worthy of travelling to you, to risk jail time, wont skip gracefully away purely because you say you dont have access.

they are your coins. you wont lose access, you would just secure them. so expect pain until you relinquish your security.

no bitcoin security technology can prevent a psychopath from slapping you with a rubber hose until you give in

summary:

[bg002h]

So, you've got all your precious Bitcoins locked up
in cold storage... you've take all technical procautions...

but then a gunman breaks into your house and says
he's gonna shoot you in the face unless you turn
over your private keys.

You could try to thwart this by preparing a decoy wallet
or two, but do you trust yourself not to buckle under
the pressure?

My solution:

You have a transaction already loaded which sends most
of your cold storage funds off to another secret wallet
which you have the keys to in a safe deposit box.

When the gunman breaks in, you hit a button, and
boom, the transaction is broadcast, you no longer
have your coins there.

Or, if you are caught off guard, you say, sure you
can have my coins, let me login... you "login"
or access a secret URL, and it whisks away
your coins to saftey while giving a decoy address...
If under pressure later, you can reveal the other
address, but now its too late, the coins are gone.

thoughts?

The first ios Bitcoin wallet app (called BitPak, with a k) had that feature years ago. It also downloaded the entire blockchain to your phone.

But yes, your idea is a good one and is worth repeating to wallet devs.

[ljudotina]

I have much better solution than OP.

You buy / build one of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxBa5bQfTGc#t=87

You make it so it's un front / back of your house (ok maybe you need 2 of those) and make it so it's underground / cowered with fake grass. Once burglar comes in and asks for your keys / fiat / gold / whatever, you act like you'r sacred as hell ( and probably you are because of that gun he's holding in his hand) and let him take whatever he wants. Than once he leaves you press "panic" button, and turrets activate. Cameras wait for burgler to come to middle of the ground betwean "fence" and house, than turret pops out and shoots motherfucker with something more than paintball balls. Dont use something that could kill human beaing, just criple him and/or disable. Than you get out of your house with baseball bat and finish the job, returning your belongings and give some payback too.

[Beliathon]

thoughts?

The whole gunman breaking into your house thing is absurd. How does gunman know which house to break in?

This scenario sounds like fear-mongering pro-gun fiction. If you have any real wealth stored in a paper wallet it belongs in a safety deposit box anyway, not in your home. They are very affordable.

True, they wouldnt know you had coins
necessarily but they might... didnt you
say you threw bitcoin parties?  Now
people know you have coins.

What if your coins are in a brain wallet?
Aren't yours?

No, my BTC are safe, but I appreciate your concern. I'm not the kind of person you fuck around with, and everyone in my city knows it. Anyone who doesn't would swiftly and seriously regret their ignorance.

Anyway I was smart enough to move 95% of my BTC out of the brain wallet and into 3 safety deposit boxes of 3 of my most trusted loved ones. Or maybe I'm lying. Guess you'll never know till you make the suicidal journey to my house!

[ljudotina]

thoughts?

The whole gunman breaking into your house thing is absurd. How does gunman know which house to break in?

This scenario sounds like fear-mongering pro-gun fiction. If you have any real wealth stored in a paper wallet it belongs in a safety deposit box anyway, not in your home. They are very affordable.

True, they wouldnt know you had coins
necessarily but they might... didnt you
say you threw bitcoin parties?  Now
people know you have coins.

What if your coins are in a brain wallet?
Aren't yours?

No, my BTC are safe, but I appreciate your concern. I'm not the kind of person you fuck around with, and everyone in my city knows it. Anyone who doesn't would swiftly and seriously regret their ignorance.

What about those "outside" your city that are even tougher? You do realize that for every "tough" guy, there is someone "tougher"? Playing it on "i'm tough" get's you fucked up sooner or later.

[Beliathon]

thoughts?

The whole gunman breaking into your house thing is absurd. How does gunman know which house to break in?

This scenario sounds like fear-mongering pro-gun fiction. If you have any real wealth stored in a paper wallet it belongs in a safety deposit box anyway, not in your home. They are very affordable.

True, they wouldnt know you had coins
necessarily but they might... didnt you
say you threw bitcoin parties?  Now
people know you have coins.

What if your coins are in a brain wallet?
Aren't yours?

No, my BTC are safe, but I appreciate your concern. I'm not the kind of person you fuck around with, and everyone in my city knows it. Anyone who doesn't would swiftly and seriously regret their ignorance.

What about those "outside" your city that are even tougher?

Your logic does not compute. New York is the toughest city, and I am the toughest guy in it. I therefore win this infantile e-toughness battle. Now grow the hell up and discuss something worthwhile.

[Ghris]

If someone is willing to risk jailtime to get your bitcoins, then that guy must really need it! I'd say, just give it to him. No need to deny someone, who need it so badly, the access to your coins.

[ljudotina]

Your logic does not compute. New York is the toughest city, and I am the toughest guy in it. I therefore win this infantile e-toughness battle. Now grow the hell up and discuss something worthwhile.

Oh sorry, i didint mean to insult. I didint even dream you'r fron New Your...if i knew i'd just shut up andwrite something more serious about this topic...like few posts abowe....jeez...

[blatchcorn]

Or just give him your bitcoins and survive the encounter.  I would not want to anger someone who has broken into my home. Depends on whether you value money or your life more.

[Beliathon]

If someone is willing to risk jailtime to get your bitcoins, then that guy must really need it! I'd say, just give it to him. No need to deny someone, who need it so badly, the access to your coins.

It's true, the simplest thing to do would be hand over control of the coins (if even possible - it really shouldn't be in your home), and immediately call the cops. Also go public with what happened to the Bitcoin community.

You'd have your coins back within a few days, I suspect. Remember, Bitcoin has a lot of white hat hackers watching out for theft and making sure thieves don't get away with it. They do this because it strengthens Bitcoin.

Real solution to Rubber Hose attack? Coinbase.com

[franky1]

Real solution to Rubber Hose attack? Coinbase.com

coinbase is just another mtgox... no one can guarantee which day the CEO will finally snap and get greedy.

it took institutional banks in cypus not many decades to become greedy.
governments were always greedy.
even the US marshals publicly selling drug money this year are showing their greed instead of destroying assets.

no technology can prevent greed. and no technology can stop a human from grabbing a hammer to get what they want.
take the music industry. nothing can stop the human element from trying to get free music..

[TimS]

even the US marshals publicly selling drug money this year are showing their greed instead of destroying assets.

Bitcoins aren't illegal, and they are valuable. Just like seized cash, houses, and cars that were used in crime, there is no good reason to destroy them when they can keep or sell them. It would be incredibly wasteful, even for a gov't, to do so. They're not showing greed, they're showing a bit of common sense.

Back on topic, though: there's no foolproof solution to a rubber hose attack, but a safe deposit box at a bank would be a good start. If possible, instruct the bank that (except in the event of your death) only you, unaccompanied, are permitted to access the box. This would mean that your attacker would have to leave you alone in the bank, giving you an opportunity to alert the police, or escape him completely.

[Lauda]

What if the gunman opens blockchain.info searches your address and sees what you've just done?
How would you explain that to your kids, which will probably be killed by then?

[franky1]

even the US marshals publicly selling drug money this year are showing their greed instead of destroying assets.

Bitcoins aren't illegal, and they are valuable. Just like seized cash, houses, and cars that were used in crime, there is no good reason to destroy them when they can keep or sell them. It would be incredibly wasteful, even for a gov't, to do so. They're not showing greed, they're showing a bit of common sense.

i understand that part. but that produces the greed that they can earn money not from finding rapists, but by raiding houses for assets....
.. see the future snowball effect that began decades ago rape conviction rate under 5% due to lack of evidence (even with sperm samples found).. financial crimes high percentage, even without video evidence that human being was at the physical computer attached to the web service, where the human does not sell drugs personally. just offers an ebay platform.

(kinda weird im even saying that as i hate drug dealers and morally low people)

but governments are more interested in money then actual crimes that have actual victims who suffer actual pain

[Justin00]

If he knows how to use blockchain.info he is probably from this forum, which means he is probs non violent.
give him some food and fresh set of clothes and send him on his way.

In all seriousness.. What you said is basically spot on. I'm sure people will say oh i'll do this or i'll do that... but at the end of the day... you cant do shit.
you forgot password ? bam kid #1 dead... still forgot ya password ?

What if the gunman opens blockchain.info searches your address and sees what you've just done?
How would you explain that to your kids, which will probably be killed by then?

[profall]

The type of people that break into houses while the homeowners are still there, are more worried about big screen TV's and prescription pills. These are not intelligent people, mainly the type that do crack/meth on a regular basis and have been in and out of jail their whole life. I do not think they care about bitcoin or even know what it is.

[Westin Landon Cox]

If someone is threatening you physical harm it is almost always advisable to do as they say (at least when it appears plausible that they could actually inflict such harm)

Actually, if someone is threatening you with physical harm, I advise to aim for the head. I live in Texas though. Here most people know better than to threaten someone. Too bad more of the world isn't like it is here.

[jonald_fyookball]

Back on topic, though: there's no foolproof solution to a rubber hose attack, but a safe deposit box at a bank would be a good start. If possible, instruct the bank that (except in the event of your death) only you, unaccompanied, are permitted to access the box. This would mean that your attacker would have to leave you alone in the bank, giving you an opportunity to alert the police, or escape him completely.

Exactly.

Very hard for a thief to get at your coins when they are in a safe deposit box.

The only problem with that is that you are now depending on getting into
that box yourself , which although unlikely, could theoertically become a problem,
and also would be impossible to access if say, you were overseas, and wanted to get
some coins.

My idea is that you have the portability of the brain wallet but you can
instantly transfer that wealth to the safe deposit box at the push of
a button.

I'm a little bit surprised that no one so far thinks this is clever, or
at least useful.

In the future, say, 20-30 years when household robots are common
place, you could have your robot move the funds using a secret
passphrase if you were ever attacked.

[jonald_fyookball]

no bitcoin security technology can prevent a psychopath from slapping you with a rubber hose until you give in

summary:

Exactly.

That's why you make it impossible for yourself to give in by
transferring the coins to the safe deposit box.

[cbeast]

Yes that's the problem this solves

no matter what excuse you say. expect pain
no matter if you have it in multisig. expect pain
no matter if you have it on a secure exchange/cloud wallet. expect pain
no matter if you have it as a brain wallet. expect pain
no matter if you have it in a banks safety deposit box. expect pain.

no matter where you have it or how its stored, anyone that knows your a bitcoiner, and obviously knows you had X coins to be worthy of travelling to you, to risk jail time, wont skip gracefully away purely because you say you dont have access.

they are your coins. you wont lose access, you would just secure them. so expect pain until you relinquish your security.

no bitcoin security technology can prevent a psychopath from slapping you with a rubber hose until you give in

summary:

Report the assault to the police. They will track the bitcoins being spent and arrest the mugger.