Bitcoin Forum

This is a complete list of offerings on Havelock.  With a TL;DR of how these offerings have performed over time.

Havelock Investments

Seventh Continent Ltd. (7C):
Issue price:     ฿0.0077
Current Price:  ฿0.0070
Highest bid:     ฿0.0026
Dividends paid: ฿0.0000
Profit:             Lol.

ALCHEMINER (ALC):
Issue price:     ฿0.1400
Current Price:  ฿0.1300
Highest bid:     ฿0.0800
Dividends paid: ฿0.0000
Profit:             Lol.

ASICMINER Full Shares (AM1):
Issue price*:    ฿4.5000
Current Price:   ฿0.1930
Highest bid:      ฿0.1930
Dividends paid: ~฿0.3
Profit:             Lol.

ASICMINER Fractional Shares (AM100):
Fractional (1/100) shares of above, -5% divs.

Bitcoin Difficulty Derivative (B.EXCH; B.MINE; B.SELL):
This [three-part offering] is not an investment but a ((zero sum)-fee) game.  The issuer is open and honest about this.

CasinoBitco.in (CBTC):
Issue price:     ฿0.00018 first tranche
Issue price:     ฿0.00013 second tranche
Issue price:     ฿0.00014 third tranche
Issue price:     ฿0.00012 fourth tranche
Current Price:  ฿0.00009
Highest bid:     ฿0.00008
Dividends paid: ฿0.0000032
Profit:             Lol.

Crypto Financial (CFIG):
Issue price:    ฿0.1500
Current Price: ฿0.0440
Highest bid:    ฿0.0440
Dividends paid: ฿0.0
Profit:             Lol.

Dealco.in (DEALCO):
Issue price:    ฿0.01000
Current Price: ฿0.0019
Highest bid:    ฿0.0018
Dividends paid: ฿0.0007
Profit:             Lol.

~~Havelock is timing out, will complete as soon as the site's back up :)
~~We're back!

Havelock Investments Fund (HavelockInvestments.com) (HIF)***:
Issue price:     ฿0.00050 first tranche
Issue price:     ฿0.00066 second tranche
Current Price:  ฿0.000161
Highest bid:     ฿0.000151
Dividends paid: ฿0.00000037
Profit:             Lol.

Havelock Mining Fund (HMF):
Issue price:     ฿4.6000 first tranche
Issue price:     ฿4.6000 second tranche
Issue price:     ฿15.0000 third tranche
Issue price:     ฿15.0000 fourth tranche
Current Price:  ฿0.0030
Highest bid:     ฿0.003
Dividends paid: ฿0.0305335
Profit:             Lol.

Korb and Co. Investments Mining Fund (KCIM):
Issue price:     ฿1.00000
Current Price:  ฿0.0003   
Highest bid:     ฿0.00028
Dividends paid: ~฿0.0015
Profit:             Lol.

Mintspare Inc. (MS):
Issue price:    ฿0.00500
Current Price: ฿0.00060
Highest bid:    ฿0.00054
Dividends paid: ฿0.0
Profit:             Lol.

PETA-MINE CryptX (PETA):
Issue price:     ฿0.05000 first tranche
Issue price:     ฿0.09500 second tranche
Issue price:     ฿0.09750 third tranche
Current Price:  ฿0.0479
Highest bid:     ฿0.0443
Dividends paid: ฿0.01432932
Profit:             Lol.

Rental Starter (RENT):
Issue price:     ฿0.00550 first tranche
Issue price:     ฿0.00750 second tranche
Current Price:  ฿0.0040   
Highest bid:     ฿0.00360
Dividends paid: ฿0.00006
Profit:             Lol.

SCRYPT-X BY CRYPTX (SCRYPT):
Issue price:     ฿0.041000 first tranche
Issue price:     ฿0.039500 second tranche
Issue price:     ฿0.038000 third tranche
Issue price**:  ฿0.042500 fourth tranche
Current Price:  ฿0.02849
Highest bid:     ฿0.02600
Dividends paid: ฿0.00281774
Profit:             Lol.

Seedcoin Fund 1 (SF1):
Issue price:     ฿0.001000 first tranche
Issue price:     ฿0.001000 second tranche
Issue price:     ฿0.001000 third tranche
Issue price:     ฿0.001000 fourth tranche
Current Price:  ฿0.00024
Highest bid:     ฿0.0260
Dividends paid: ฿0.0
Profit:             Lol.

S.MG Passthru from MPEX (SMG):
Issue price:     ฿0.000093
Current Price:  ฿0.000050
Highest bid:     ฿0.000050
Dividends paid: ฿0.0
Profit:             Lol.

---

Delisted:

NEOBEE
Ran away

COG
"I learned alot!"

---

*This is the price at the time of the initial listing on Havelock, not the IPO price.
**Despite the 40pt red warnings informing the financiers to buy at the lowest available price, local investment enthusiasts chose to break with tradition, buying at the highest available price.
***Havelock's own stock.
"This Fund is offered as a way for our loyal users to participate in any profits derived from the operations of the HavelockInvestments.com website."

I mean to tell you that while there are winners in friendly streetcorner shell games, there are no winners here.  Other than the issuers and the traders quick enough to unload their bags on greater fools.  If you're quick and smart enough, enjoy--this isn't about you.  My question's to those who think they're "investing."  They do exist, as funny as that may seem :)

http://s3.amazonaws.com/prod_sussleimg/022b1b2f3fe6990d3d5bc01e0f0ce8be.png

You spend hours each day in the Peta thread, doing what you're paid to do best, but don't include it here? ;D

In all seriousness, it's a sorry state of affairs all round.  And these losses pale into insignificance when you look back at BTC-TC, Bitfunder, etc.

I'm updating the thread as we speak, patience! :)
*And I'll also get to the delisted stuff, like COG and NEOBEE.  If I included other exchanges... :(

**There, I got to PETA :)

It is threads like this that make Havelock Investments shudder. I cannot think of a more damaging report than this, despite it coming from a known Troglodyte. The numbers appear to be accurate and it paints an absolutely horrific landscape for anyone holding BTC looking to invest. Save for a few assets that have a history of returns, why would a rational human being invest into any crypto securities?



Group #1: You have to risk losing 100% of your investment to low-value human beings who steal BTC from their investors. There seems to be at least a 50% chance this happens in the current environment.


Group #2: If you are lucky enough to avoid these fraudulent investments, you then move on to the realm of incompetence and inexperience, which probably infects no less than 30-40% of all crypto securities.  


Group #3: If you in the -10% of investors who are not broke by now, then you have made it to the final stage of a possible return. I can think of only a few companies that have been worthwhile investments, and that is assuming you sold out of the investment after it made a profit (sell close to the top of the valuation). Showing ASIC MINER here is somewhat misleading given the asset was listed  on HL at the height of the 2013 Gen 1 bonanza at close to 4.5BTC . Anyone who invested from 0.1BTC up to 2BTC and then got out above 4BTC did very well. They also are in a position to recreate some of the magic from 2013. However, even if ASIC MINER does blow the socks off the market again, this is still the lone port in a engulfing storm of investment misery.


Any company that can produce a product or service on time with positive returns for investors is going to do amazingly well here, because there is no competition amongst the liars, thieves, and inexperienced entrepreneurs circulating the market. As much as it pains me to agree with someone like NotLampchop, this industry is an utter disgrace and I would be very worried about the future if I was running a security exchange. If something miraculous does not happen soon, Havelock, Cryptostocks and everyone else is going to run out of their "Greater Fools". The inability to screen out these poorly constructed investment vehicles from the community is another sore point that Havelock and others are guilty of. You brought these investments to the public, you should be held accountable for the state of the industry is in now because of them.


Until major changes are made in this industry, the best advice is clear. Do not invest your BTC and give an exchange or an issuer any of your hard-earned Bitcoin.

Please include Neo&Bee.

Done.  Number of offerings currently showing a profit:  0 (zero).
@jonsi:  Mentioned NEOBEE as a footnote. 

Its a bit unfair to post ASICMINER at 4.5BTC, the shares on havelock are from shareholders who requested to move their shares there. While ASICMINER has historically done very well investors, I would also say its highly over valued and I honestly think it will fail within the next 2 years. While your doing this, mind posting the assets that are on Mpex while your at it? Or is this just to bash your competition.

It is true that 95%+ of the current / past offerings have been garbage, and likely will continue that way in the future, but at least people have an option to try and raise fundraising for their ideas that they wouldn't have access to before.

These shares are very similar to penny stocks (Both in price and possible return of investment  ::)), the vast majority are flops / scams. If people used their heads the majority of these projects wouldn't even get funded.

Also, share price isn't everything. RENT's networth is over $600k, quite a bit higher than its current price. And PETA and SCRYPT have paid dividends, thought I still don't think putting money with any mining group will actually ever give a positive return.

Really great post you have made here!  It amazes me how many seem to keep investing in these securities and getting burned over and over again.  I hope this will make them wake up and realize you will not make any BTC investing into these.

@AcoinL.L.C:
Re. ASICMINER:  "Issue price" is marked with red font and an asterisk.  There's a corresponding footnote.  Seems fair.

Re. RENT: Market price is market price.  It's what the market is willing to pay you for what you have.  As I said, RENT seemed to stick out for me also.
Until the second IPO.
And then an  attempt to borrow money @14% to [according to Branny] buy another property.  Because banks won't lend money to a corporation with (quoting you here) "networth ... over $600k."

@Blazedout419:  Thanks, "this time for sure!"

http://theforvm.org/files/bullwinkle-rabbit-hat.jpg

A more formalized version of this should be linked/appended to every single IPO offering on the forums as a cautionary tale. If investors see the pitfall they are entering into and still consciously decide to go risk their BTC, then there is not much else one can do to prevent this from happening. I would not provide this an an attempt to 'Troll' already broke investors or scare away new investors. Simply provide an accurate, up-to-date historical reference of past performances in the sector. The results are so poor I do not believe any commentary would be needed. The numbers speak for themselves, sadly.

The Condo thing was also the dumbest damn thing I have ever heard a real estate investor say. From what I can see he is a agent and new to investing. The first thing people cut in a bad economy is vacations, economy takes a dip that place is GONE!

Thats bullshit banks will not lend, if you have a property free and clear
Do hard money
They will do loans for any investor with 0 down, yes its is real. I have seen someone use them and flip 10 houses.

He is a "Noob" Investor at best, his liquidity is being held up by inexperience. When starting flips are your best revenue generator. Hes talking about franchising... oh lawd.
http://www.homevestors.com/
 
Ug's ugly homes franchise will eat him alive, they are ruthless undercut people and have large capital to back them.

Valuing these offerings over time in BTC is idiotic...  Valuing 99.9% of the things on this planet in BTC over time will result in them looking like they have lost a ton of value when in fact they have not...  There is a reason that while Bitcoin is accepted as a means of exchange, things are still priced in USD.  By your account, buying a home, stocks, gold, dollars, etc, would have all been horrible "investments" due to their lack of performance against Bitcoin.  I really wish idiots that didn't understand simple accounting would stop pretending to be intelligent investors and accept that they are shills hiding behind a veil of idiocy to further an agenda.  

Using your line of thinking, any IPO that happened around the $1,000/BTC mark should look like an amazing investment now, even if all they did was take your BTC and hold it in USD.  Obviously only an idiot would think that an entity actually gained value with that course of action.

You ask why people invest...  Let me answer that for you as I have decades of experience providing analysis to investors...  Every investor I have met up until this point in my life would answer that question the same.  People invest to make dollars.  Now, stop pretending to be an idiot and go take the time to do the actual numbers including the average prices paid at the exchange rates during the time if you want to provide numbers with any kind of meaning behind them.  Otherwise, congratulations on a good troll.  It seems with your centralized exchange dying a slow painful manipulated death, you are upset to the point where you are just lashing out.  Given your legal circumstances and lack of maturity, I can understand your position and look forward to watching the continued deterioration of your mental state.

Two separate issues here in my mind. Yes, we know this is MP and his modus operandi when it comes to the Securities forum on bitcointalk. If one isn't on to his shtick by now, spending ten minutes in this sub forum will definitely fill you in on all you need to know about him and his motivations.
 

His much beleaguered point on the quality of and returns on Bitcoin-denomiated securities has some merit, I simply do not trust his intentions. I think it is fair to say that for many of us, if we wanted to invest in companies with dollars, we would and can through any number of traditional means. One has already made an investment if they find themselves here with BTC to invest in a company or security. The goal is often then to make more BTC then initially invested, with the knowledge you are helping the ecosystem grow during its infancy. The experiment of growing ones BTC through investments in the crypto-sphere has been an unmitigated disaster for the majority of investors.

This poses a fairly serious quandary for investors. If the goal is to increase your purchasing power valued in Dollars, simply hold your BTC. This strategy has been the winning one since the start of BTCitcoin, over securities by a fair margin. So then what is the use-case and motivation behind ever investing in a company valued in BTCitcoin? Opposed to taking on 0% risk and holding the coins while they appreciate versus fiat dollars ($) year over year? This is a legitimate question we are faced with given the performances of all crypto assets. If there is not a good answer then I see a large problem coming up ahead, as companies need capital investment to come to life. If it is a proven losing strategy to invest in bitcoin denominated securities (few exceptions exist), then where is the capital investment going to come from? A model with only private investors funding seems to be growing in popularity, and it is the only option a company has now if investors are drained of coins to give them to get off the ground through yet another IPO.


MP is using a serious and emotional issue to do what he does best, antagonize others while he awaits his fate in the real world. Unfortunately for the rest of us, his post does highlight the reality of this sector.

     OgNasty I mostly agree with you in many of your posts but here you are wrong. A securitie issued in BTC for a mining company has nothing to do with BTC/usd price, absolutely nothing. If you invest 10 BTC when the price for 1 BTC is $600 and you end up with 6 BTC but now the price of 1 BTC is $1100 by your sayings it was a successful investment but I can assure you it was not and in fact you lost 40% of your original amount by the fact that you invested those 10 BTC.



-edit-
 Also you say about a company has no value because: "all they did was take your BTC and hold it in USD". You are wrong again and here is why: A company that know when to convert BTC to usd and usd to BTC would be one of the most profitable companyes of our time giving the volatility of the market and would make extremely huge profits for investors if such a company should exist.
-edit-

Valuing a BTC investment in anything *but* BTC is idiotic.  BTC is the unit of account.  Just like USD is the unit of account when you invest USD.  You learn that around the time you learn to tie shoelaces.
If you get back less [insert unit of account here] than you "invest," you're loosing.  That should be self-evident.


OK.  If keeping your coin in your pocket makes you *more* dollars, why would you "invest"?
Because keeping your coin in your pocket does just that--when you convert your BTC into dollars, you will get more money for 1 BTC than you would for 0.1 BTC, which is what you'd have had you "invested" your 1 BTC.
Lawd!


You provide investment advice?  IRL?  RLY?!

@Everybody insisting I'm MP:
What makes you think that?  The rumor was started by butthurt Active Mining "investors," unable to accept the fact that they have been pwnt by an illiterate alcoholic from Missouri.  The same contingent has insisted that I'm Eduardo de Castro, Icebreaker, Puppet, and countless other bogeymen.  I do not defend myself against such accusations partially because of the lel involved.  

Let me easily tell you why you are all wrong.

You all say your goal is to increase BTC.  That is easy to say while BTC is rising in value.  What if BTC drops from $560 down to $0.01 while your BTC investment doubles?  Would you be happy your $560 investment is now worth $0.02, or would you be angry that you lost all the real value of your investment?

Also, if you think that a mining investment is only in BTC you don't clearly understand what the costs of running a business are priced in.

Please people, use common sense.  You aren't investing USD, you are investing BTC.  However, claiming you're investing to get more BTC is simply you being dishonest with yourselves.  You are all investing to acquire more wealth, not BTC.  Becoming infatuated with the BTC price increase to tear down every other asset in existence displays a disconnection from reality that is most certainly a warning to others of mental instability.



There would be no real profits at all in the example I gave of a company cashing out BTC raised from an IPO and then gaining BTC value as the exchange rate dropped.  The USD invested would be identical to the USD investment in the company regardless of the last exchange rate.  You would have no added purchasing power whatsoever and thus, have not gained anything.  However, the thread starter would congratulate you on such amazing performance, even though you could have found millions of better performing assets to invest in.  While I do agree that most BTC securities are garbage (see mpex's current offerings), at least show the value that they've lost in purchasing power and not just the result of the BTC rate performance from the time they IPO'd til now.  That is foolish and not beneficial to any intelligent investor.



There's this thing in investing called diversification.  It's sort of important to know if you're going to pretend to be an investment guru.  You might want to look it up.  Also, I never claimed that keeping coins will make you more dollars.  Ask someone who bought in at $1,000...  You're using your own personal experience of losing BTC hand over fist and trying to blame a market you don't grasp.  Sad, because I used to think you had some intelligence, but now I can see that your current legal dilemma has brought more trolling out of you, while at the same time removing any coherent thought.

Of course I'd be upset that BTC has been devalued in respect to USD.  I hope you're not suggesting that bitcoin "investments" would somehow provide a hedge against that?  

Havelock offerings continued tanking regardless of the BTC/USD exchange rate.
Depreciated while BTC prices were climbing.
Depreciated while prices fell.
There's no clear correlation between BTC price and the price of a Havelock basket.  Try to find it in, oh, let's pick one that's everyone's darling, has been around for a while, and hasn't folded or ran away--ASICMINER.
Point to BTC price movement on this chart:

http://s28.postimg.org/nw7otxj0d/Capture.jpg

As far as honesty re. BTC vs. USD, that's irrelevant.  Since all "investments" on Havelock have been shown to turn BTC into a smaller amount of BTC, a scenario would have to exist in which 1 BTC is worth less than 0.1 BTC for these "investments" to make sense.
There is no such scenario, thus they do not. 

I'm not just suggesting it.  I'm stating that if the security you are investing in is run properly, it will most certainly provide a hedge as opposed to 100% exposure to one currency or another.



You're kidding right?  Try taking a longer view of the market instead of looking day to day...  BTC is up thousands of % and BTC denominated securities have seen their prices lowered as a result.  It isn't rocket science...  That is why I say valuing them in a different way then say Amagi Metals values their gold/silver or Overstock.com values their products in BTC is simply investors not understanding what it is they're doing.


EDIT: Just to further prove my point... If you purchased 100 BTC at $2 and now go and sell them all for $55,000, go ahead and tell the IRS you saw no gain because you bought 100 BTC and sold 100 BTC.  Then you can join mpoe in prison while continuing to believe you are right and everyone else is wrong.

OgNasty, those investments had only went down in value regarding of the BTC usd price. The poit you fail to understand is that if you invested 10 BTC when BTC was $1000 and even if BTC went down to $1, of course you are not happy because now you have 20BTC if this is how much your investment brought to you, but are you happy having 1 BTC or less (wich is the reality of BTC investments in general, not only on Havelock)? The question remains legit: why do you invest?

@OgNasty:
I have given you a chart spanning a year's time.  BTC price has went up x10 and halved again.  If there was a price correlation, it should be observable.
And "security you are investing in is run properly"?!  You came to the wrong hood, bro.  I've just gave you a list of securities, and, apparently, none of them are "run properly" :D

Finally, you wanna hedge against Bitcoin?  Buy dollars.  Simple.

OK, so you aren't happy regardless of what happens unless you see gains in both USD and BTC.  OK, I got it now. 



You are giving me the chart of the market's trades, not the asset's value.  Some people are stupid enough to trade without understanding what they are doing with regard to the exchange rate (see this thread), so try looking at the end result instead of the market perception and maybe you'll grasp the concept?  When you break everything down per trade in USD value, you can actually see the real performance of these assets, most of which are still horrible.

What if you want to hedge against dollars and Bitcoin?

Market price reflects investor sentiment.  If every participating "investor" is, to use your words, "stupid enough to trade without understanding what they are doing with regard to the exchange rate," then such is the market.  Complaining about it is pointless.  I can only hope that when you dole out your IRL investment advice, said advice reflects things as they are, not the way you feel that they should be.

Maybe I'm one of the stupid ones, but isn't an asset's value determined by what people would pay for it on the open market (among other things)?



Buy gold and silver? How would buying a BTC-denominated security hedge against BTC?

You know very well this is not what I'm saying. It's about the investment part, not the BTC usd price. If you are so addicted to the usd part of the investment look at it this way: if you don't invest you have one chance to gain usd from a rising BTC and one chance to loose from a falling BTC but if you had invested you have to chances of loosing usd one from the falling value of the investment and one from the falling price of usd (if BTC rise in value you would be better not to invest anyway). I really hope you understand now what I say and don't twist my words so you can be right about this.


-edit-
 Please don't take phrases out of the context, that is what reporters do to get "sensational news" for the public.
-edit-

Given this logic, you also have 2 ways to gain.  You cannot say you have two ways to lose, and then ignore that you have 2 ways to gain.  I'm OK with using whatever logic you want, but the end result is the same.  Purchasing power is what matters when dealing with multiple currencies.  I'm simply stating that you cannot currently measure purchasing power over time in BTC.  Can we agree on that, or are you aware of some website that prices goods competitively only in BTC and does not adjust them per the exchange rate?  Spoiler alert, one doesn't exist.

It is not me who doesn't understand.  I have decades of trading experience with multiple currencies.  I would have been fired had I made an investment in Zimbabwe and then tried to justify it by saying that I was seeing huge annual gains in Zimbabwe dollars.  That is in essence what you are all doing with the line of thinking in this thread.  I really hope you understand now.  ;)

There is a reason why all major companies that you all get excited about when they start accepting Bitcoin use USD to establish their pricing and not BTC.  The securities (I use this term very loosely) exchanges don't price in USD for legal reasons, and that tricks the weak minded into not seeing what is going on.  Hence how so many people without global trading experience come here and complain about all BTC securities.  They simply don't understand what they're doing and try to blame the market instead of themselves.

     You didn't had two ways of gaining. We talk here about facts that happend, not in theory. In theory of course you also have two ways of gaining if you invest in the right securiti. The point is this: until now that didn't exist (except for Asicminer). Let's both face it: investing in btc securities was a bad ideea, and we talk here about buying at the IPO and holding, because I admit there are people that made good money trading those securities.
     Please understand this is not a fight and not about who is right and who is wrong. It's just the fact that until now bitcoin securities had only brought big loses to investors.

No, that is called the cost.  Value is something different.  I'd suggest you read some of Warren Buffet's writings to help you understand the difference.



Gold and silver have proven to be a pretty terrible hedge between USD & BTC historically.  On a line chart of the 4 over enough time you cannot even distinguish the difference between metals/USD due to the massive increase in BTC.  

If you cannot identify how a BTC-denominated security can hedge against BTC, I cannot help you or argue with you.



That isn't a true statement.  You need to measure losses and gains in purchasing power when dealing in multiple currencies over time.  Any other way is wrong.  Looking at the IPO price in BTC and the last price in BTC is either trolling, or shows a blatant misunderstanding of how assets are valued.

What was the value of gold 10 years ago? was the price that people would pay for it. It wasn't the cost, it was the actual value. Same as BTC 2 years ago, same as oil 1000 years ago, it had no value because nobody was willing to pay anything for it. Maybe in the future we discover that we can make gold from iron and it's value plumets. It's it actual value that plumets, not the cost.

-edit-
  Something can have value for me but not for you. For example I may be willing to pay $1000 for something without any value for you, like my dog, if I loose him. What is the cost of the dog? The value is the real indicator of value, not the cost.
-edit-

This is a very informative post about Havelock listed (and delisted) securities. Could you make a similar post about the shares and funds listed on MPEx?

To steal a line from Voltaire, "Compared to what?"  If gold, USD, and BTC are all lousy bets, what's  good?  NEOBEE?

I like how dividends for certain stocks are cut off to show a narrative that no company has issued any dividends.

For example:



Should instead read:

PETA-MINE CryptX (PETA):
Issue price:     ฿0.0500 first tranche
Issue price:     ฿0.0950 second tranche
Issue price:     ฿0.0975 third tranche
Current Price:  ฿0.0479
Highest bid:     ฿0.0443
Dividends paid: ฿0.0143/Share
Dividends paid since 2nd/3rd issuance: ฿0.0054

Return on 1st Issuance: ฿0.0143, or 28.7% in 6 months and 2 weeks (projected out to 51.2% annually)
Return on 2nd and 3rd issuance: ฿0.0055 , or 5.8% in 1 month (projected out to approximately 69.8% annually)

But hey, if you want to use dishonest data, I guess that's your choice. I am surprised no one has called him out on it yet. Sure, there are a lot of questionable stocks, but I would note that a lot of stocks during phases like the tech boom in '99/00, you won't find a ton of great stocks, but when you do, they can be pretty lucrative.

This statement shows that you do not work in the finance industry, and do not have any formal education on the subject.

Your dog comment is actually in contrast to the rest of your statements and shows that maybe you do understand the difference between cost and value.  For example, the cost of your dog may be $500.  You may value the dog significantly higher than that, so buying that same dog would be considered the best investment of your life, even though when you sell that dog, all you're seeing is losses from expenses and you did not see any return on your investment.  While this isn't a perfect example due to your assigning value on the dog, using some imagination and swapping the dog value with USD value, and the cost with the BTC cost of investment, you prove my argument quite well.



That diversification thing you don't seem to comprehend.  ;)

Just corrected.  Not sure why you're getting so bothered about it.  Not like you turned a profit or anything :D

As far as "a lot of questionable stocks":  Technically, you're right. ALL OF THEM HAVE LOST MONEY, and "all" could be seen as "a lot," I suppose.

*If you spot any more errors, please point them out and I'll correct them. 

Well, not everything in this life it's an investent. I don't consider an invetment by giving someone a reward for bringing me my lost dog. Not everything that has a value is an investment. A piece of gold that was extracted 300 years ago can change it's value but not it's cost. The real price of something it is given by it's value not by it's cost. A btc has the same value regardless of it beying mined 4 years ago with a laptop that cost $500 and consumed 80 W/h as the one that was mined 5 months ago with a Teraminer that cost (at that time) 15k usd and consumed 2.2 kW/h. The same Teraminer cost is constant but it's value changed. So the price is given by the value not by the cost, same as securities.

Best response thus far, well put sir.

I invested in these unregulated securities solely as a more interesting way to gamble, which implies testing my skills to know which issuer is legit and competent, and it also serves to practice trading stocks with a very low barrier of entry.

I did not make profits in the few months I've done this, and luckily I broke even, but I've gained from this some valuable trading experience.

Really, cryptocurrencies-related securities are a great way to learn about trading, the value of stocks, and about how to spot scammers. The last one is a particularly important skill in life.

This statement is wrong.  It's actually the opposite of the truth.

Cost is a result of perceived value at the time.  Therefore the cost of something will change in time along with it's perceived value.  This is accentuated by inflation over time, which is similar to a moving BTC rate.  So I guess you probably think anything purchased 300 years ago is an amazing investment because you got back so much more USD than was invested.  You can turn a blind eye to the fact that it's possible your purchasing power didn't change at all so in fact you gained nothing.

I see your issue though.  You are trying to evaluate something incorrectly based on your personal experience.  You say, I paid this amount, so that is my investment cost.  The problem you are having is that you are paying an investment cost determined by the USD/BTC exchange rate in USD and trying to pretend your investment cost is solely in BTC (so while you argue that your investment cost cannot change, you are in fact going back in time and changing your investment cost with each tick of the USD/BTC exchange rate).  For people used to staring at their brokerage account in only 1 currency and seeing the cost/return, this might make sense.  For someone with experience dealing in multiple currencies, it appears that you obviously don't understand what you're doing.

I hope that makes sense, I admittedly didn't explain it well but tried my best to do so in a way that might finally click for you.  If not, I'm sorry for your future investment losses.

EDIT:  Why not list these securities in a 3rd party value that is neither BTC or USD to give another non-bias opinion?  It seems that might be a better way to do it since people don't seem to grasp this whole multiple currencies evaluation thing.  I know why of course, it wouldn't be a good troll and the OP's intent was not to provide any useful data, but to simply bash the market he failed miserably trying to control and will ultimately imprison him.

Don't be. I don't make "investments" in BTC securities. The reason for that you'll have it if you look at the way that this securities performed over time. Anyway, I don't want to argue with you no more, you are right and I'm wrong. Just please tell me, with all your experience in finance and trading: What securitie do you recomand buying right now at it's current price? Please give me a straight answer, just name it. Thx.

I'm not an oracle.  However, if I were to make a personal investment in a Bitcoin related security at current prices, I would look for an investment in a mining pool or perhaps an organization that has a structure designed to shield it from rising costs.

I would also make sure to only invest in an entity run by someone active with a long history that I trusted.

Yes, I get it. No answer after all this statments about financial education and experience and whatever you said. I didn't asked you to be an oracle, just to say one name that you think it's worth buying right now. I admited you are right and know what you're talking about allready, I'll take your word for it. The fact that you are unable to give a straight answer makes me to think otherwise (and maybe not just me, this is usually happens when you start to spin around your tail). My answer is straight and was from the begining (with my limited knowledge): there is none that's worth investing. You contradicted me in every way possible and showed your superioriti in finance and investments but in the end you can't give a simple answer. So tipic on this forum.

-edit-
   So please, just say the securiti that, in your opinion (just your opinion to be clear, I'm sure you have a very strong opinion after all those economy lessons), worth buying right now. That's it, just one name (or more if you think there are more that's worth buying right now).
-edit-

I'm not unable.  I'm unwilling.  There is a difference.  I won't bother you with details of licenses and fiduciary duties, blah, blah, blah...  Instead I will just say that any recommendation I gave could be viewed as a conflict of interest due to my affiliation with something that could be irrationally misconstrued as a security.  Therefore, I am not willing to give you a recommendation on a specific investment, only to educate you so that you may be better prepared to choose one for yourself.

I'll go to sleep now. Thank you OgNasty that in your vague answer had described a securiti that doesn't exist so confirming that there is none to invest at the moment at their curent prices, witch exactly what this thread is about. It would be best for you in the future not to engage in contradictions and lectures just for the sake of contradicting when in the end you can't give a straight answer to a straight question.
Have a great day everyone.

Can't and won't aren't the same thing.  You're welcome and goodnight.

My personal experience has pretty much been inline with OP.  Every single security I've invested in on both Havelock and CS has resulted in loss.  At first I started investing in these things because I thought I was actually helping the bitcoin ecosystem.  It turns out I've been helping the twat-waffles of the bitcoin ecosystem.  Has been one helluva learning curve.

*not calling all security owners twat-waffles here (just most), I believe occasionally there are some that legitimately try to attain profitability, I just haven't found one yet that actually has.  Really starting to doubt I'm going to find the next Bitpay or Coinbase on either of these exchanges anytime soon...not with as small a bag as I'm holding :/

If you want to bet on bitpay, you could buy shares of D.BPAY on mpex, or if you want to bet against it you could grab some shares of the upcoming F.DERP which will be available soon.

Beckons back to the days of BTCT's claim that it wasn't an exchange but a game server, "for entertainment and educational purposes only."
To be that clever...

This is not a good representation of the state of the security.

This guy has posted this FUD everywhere he can including multiple subreddits. Is there a lot of scams out there? Yes. Is there a lot of bad investments out there? Yes. However comparing the securities using just btc is rather poor method as the actual cost is also dependant on the USD price as well.

If your investing purely to increase your bitcoin holdings then it's unlikely to make more that what you started with unless you day trade the stocks. This is especially true if bitcoin rapidly increases in value. But like OgNasty has indicated bitcoin is a transfer protocol. There are inherent risks and benefits with that as well. It has potential for a ton but it's all speculation still of what could be.

Now what do securities offer? They offer different things based on the security. Mining contacts, fee shares, or shares of the company for a few. This creates a new level of diversification to invest in and by being only available in btc they can skirt some financial regulations allowing them to access funding easier. It's all about purchasing power. I currently have X and want Y. How much of Y can I buy. While these securities are in bitcoin pricing everything else is tied to the USD or local currency. So if I buy 5 shares of Z company and those 5 shares at the time of purchase in btc was worth $100 if I sell those 5 shares at loss in btc but btc raised in value to the USD and now I can buy $110 with what I sold it for I profited.

The argument to that though is you could have made more money keeping it in btc in the first place,  which is completely true. But the issue is if you wanted to diversify beyond a crypto and instead into infrastructure the only way is using the purchasing power of btc at the time you bought.

For example SFI has tanked in price to 25% of the ipo price. This most likely is attributed to their loss of Gocoin, no dividends as it is a long term investment and the market activity isn't high making just a couple dumpers able to crash the market and create even more uncertainty. All while the CEOs of three of their major investments have been producing exactly what they were planning on a reasonable time frame. The head of the fund and CEOs have provided constant updates and publicity being a part of many conferences one of which just ended where announcements were made.

Now looking at this chart SFI seems to be a horrible investment when in reality your paying 0.00025 btc per share for 0.00075 of btc that has been invested in these companies. Ipo was 0.001 btc per share totaling 2000 btc. Roughly 1500 btc of that has already been invested in companies. 220 btc was the fee by the fund and the rest was meant for Gocoin. If the btc for go coin was invested in another company the amount that each share has invested increases even more.

But at last there are no dividends. Which is true however you are owning a part of those companies that may or may not be successful or may or may not produce dividends in the future. That is the risk I take long term with this investment and yes as you could tell I'm fairly well invested in them. As well the fund itself provides the business experience and networking that is needed to grow a company. For that I think the cut the fund takes is acceptable.

With securities you risk the losing out short term for potential bigger gain long term. Holding share of a company that becomes the next visa,  while a long shot, is the risk your getting with these securities. It's a huge risk but possibly even bigger reward.

As well many securities are not specific to one coin so say a fatal flaw is found in btc a company has a lot more mobility to shift to other coins compared to being stuck holding the bag.

So do due diligence, know your taking high risks and keep your self diverse and you can do well. The risk of being scammed is very high and at times is almost impossible to see (NEOBEE or Scharmbeck) but that's the risk you take.

I do not blame the security issuers I blame the Exchanges. If the exchanges did more to earn the fee's there would not be as much fraud as we see now.
It all comes down to them wanting that profit over performance. It sad and I hope someone builds a exchange to change this in the near future.

Exchanges plan is flawed they see the coin upfront as incentive and not the long term revenue. Make a legit exchange with good customer service and security I can see a mass exodus to that exchange.

Cryptostocks- they seem swamped and unable to carry out simple duties as returning average customers emails. When informed of a scam they do nothing about it, if the security owner sends them a email they just say ok.

Havelock- They take paper work and ask you about your security but the really do not dig deep. I bet you BTC I could get a fraud security up on havelock with out a problem.

MPEX- Think the owner will be sent to the US to serve a prison term due to his taunting of the US gov. They take that shit serious and will drop everything just to say they got you.

This is exactly the issue with the market right now. There is no regulations in place to protect consumers. The exchanges are a business and need to profit to keep alive but when times become rough they need to increase revenue and decreasing verification or allowing a company that you think may be questionable may be your only way. Plus if it's not illegal why not it's better then closing shop today.

Until there is a more secure way to invest of you want to invest in btc companies then you just have to account the  chance of a scam into the risk profile of the security.

I think the other issue is just getting enough companies to run a profitable exchange is difficult. Add in having to establish yourself and your bound to have issues get anyone to start.

 Profitable companys have common factors.


Audits.
Assets lists.
And transaction proof.

When something like a digital business with no hard assets is built, it makes it easy to hide skimming. Hence why exchanges and coins tend to be for the most part scams.


3 Simple things most securities fail to do that a real world asset holder would want. The reason I think RENT does well is you know exactly what the holdings are. If you wanted to you could go check public record for purchase price and deed information. Want to know what it rents for or has rented for most sites like trulia keep records of that stuff after its listed in the MLS. So the only real part when he could skim would be rehab costs.
 This makes it pretty hard to pull a scam and if he did he would be screwed, He would lose his realtors license and be sued to extinction for those propertys.

Exactly why securities have to be assessed and why I don't like the chart here. It's the blanket statement that a start up company is a horrible investment when it's only been around less than a year (a few a bit longer). I'm going to giggle at NotLambChop when someone makes  a shit ton off a security. His view that all companies are doomed is laughable. With good research and assessment (like your view of things being public record) it reduces the risk involved. But still even then they can fail.

Hey NotLambchop, let's make some IPO together !  ;D

https://i.imgur.com/gnQHLEK.gif

Is he saying that all companies are doomed, or is he saying that nothing on Havelock makes any profit?

He's using the data to claim it's a bad idea to invest in securities on Havelock. He also isn't claiming that Havelock hasn't made profit he's saying Havelock securities haven't made more btc than initial btc investment. If you threw the numbers of purchasing power of the securities during IPO vs current purchasing power if they cashed out today the chart would be a bit different. But that wouldn't support what he's trying to do...

He is.  From Havelock's most recent [what passes for] financial statement, it is operating in the red.  Havelock's own share price [partially] reflects that.  Please haz careful readings.

But the numbers you use are in btc. You can't show profit with out the purchasing power at the time of purchase.

The btc price affects the profit as every purchase for goods is tied to the USD not bitcoin. No company has a set price for bitcoin items it's all based on other currently accepted currency.

Here is some statistics for you :)
Start up fail rate.
http://www.statisticbrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/business-failure.jpg

Major Cause Percentage of Failures   Specific Pitfalls
1   Incompetence   
46 %
Emotional Pricing
        
Living too high for the business
        
Nonpayment of taxes
        
No knowledge of pricing
        
Lack of planning
        
No knowledge of financing
        
No experience in record-keeping
2   Unbalanced Experience or Lack of Managerial Experience   
30 %
Poor credit granting practices
        
Expansion too rapid
        
Inadequate borrowing practices
3   Lack of Experiences in line of goods or services   
11 %
Carry inadequate inventory
        
No knowledge of suppliers        
Wasted advertising budget
5   Neglect, fraud, disaster   
1 %
 
Leading Management Mistakes
1   Going into business for the wrong reasons
2   Advice from family and friends
3   Being in the wrong place at the wrong time
4   Entrepreneur gets worn-out and/or underestimated the time requirements
5   Family pressure on time and money commitments
6   Pride
7   Lack of market awareness
8   The entrepreneure falls in love with the product/business
9   Lack of financial responsibility and awareness
10   Lack of a clear focus
11   Too much money
12   Optimistic/Realistic/Pessimistic

Business with Worst Rate of Success After Fifth Year
1   Plumbing, Heating, Air Conditioning
2   Single-Family Housing Construction
3   Grocery Stores
4   Eating Places
5   Security Brokers and Dealers
6   Local Trucking

    Businesses with Best Rate of Success After Fifth Year
1   Religious Organizations
2   Apartment Building Operators
3   Vegetable Crop Productions 4   Offices & Clinics of Medical Doctors
5   Child Day Care Services

Awesome graph thanks for finding that.

This is not always true in the current market. No comment on the rest of your post but I have a friend that owns rent property and flips houses in a similar manner. He has tons of credit, but he cannot buy a house. He owns dozens of vehicles, large equipment that cost $50,000 to $120,000, lines of credit for other things etc. He could go buy a fleet of vehicles tonight with only his signature but he cannot buy a house without a huge (30 to 50%) down payment. This is true of rental properties, flip properties and even a home for himself. He recently put 50% down to finance a property for himself, something that even broke idiots seem to be able to do with no problem.

Now I have no idea what exactly they are looking at that makes this next to impossible but he has great credit, makes early payments often but has had this problem for years.

Good, bad... it is the only representation.

Germican, same question (just give a straight answer, we are sick of theory, don't be another preacher with nothing to say in the end): What security worth investing in right now at curent price?

Welcome to real estate with RiverboatBTC, this course is free but if you would like more come to my seminar at the price of 5999  :D. This is a joke its what all the real estate guru's say lol

Your buddy is looking in the wrong places. My buddy took 5k from his parents and bought his first rehab project. He put 0 down and paid closing cost only. I seen someone just sign a house over to him cause they could not make the payments. They moved out he got them out of default, rehabbed the house and sold it. He only paid for the rehab.

These are the type of things inexperienced investors do not understand, or know about. Why do I say this, check this out.

I have 100k to put into rehabbing a house.
House cost 50K rehab 50k House is worth 150k. Great I made 50k.
or
I take 100k get a hard money loans for 4 properties paying 10-20% down on each one and now I made 40K X 4. Its only 40k due to the fees of the hard money loans.
or
I find home owners going into foreclosure offer to let them out from under the house, they just have to hand over the keys. You pay to catch up the note up to date. Now you have a rental or a rehab. Free equity.

All these people lend all day everyday most not even on credit and some require 0 down.

Tell him for hard money flips
http://www.dohardmoney.com/loans/residential-rehab
To refinance a property
http://www.dohardmoney.com/loans/refinance

100% approved,  you pay 600 for a 3 appraisers to come check your property out. They tell you what your property is worth and will lend you up to 70% of its market value. Credit does not matter they lend on the value of the property.

HML Loan Type   Both
Lending Area   37 States
Contact   Jennifer Watkins
Address   2691 S. Decker Lake Lane
City, State, Zip   West Valley City, Utah, 84119
Phone   888-852-1522
Fax   801-456-3284
Web Site   www.wdbfunding.com
Email   loans@wdbfunding.com

HML Loan Type   Residential
Lending Area   AL, CA, CO, CT, DC,DE, FL, GA, IL, IN, KY, LA, MA, MD,ME,MI, MN, MO, MS, NH, NJ, NC, NM, NY, OH, OK, PA, RI, SC, TN, TX, UT, VA,WA, WI
Contact   rehabs@brookviewfinancial.com
Address   2321 Whitney Avenue
City, State, Zip   Hamden, Connecticut, 06518
Phone   203-230-8500
Fax   203-248-1771
Web Site   www.brookviewfinancial.com
Email   rehabs@brookviewfinancial.com

HML Loan Type   Both
Lending Area   CT, FL, ME, MA, NC, NH, NJ, NY, PA, RI, VA, VT
Contact   Dan Burke
Address   888 Washington Street
City, State, Zip   Dedham, Massachusetts, 02026
Phone   617-971-9700
Fax   617-983-3541
Web Site   www.endeavor.com
Email   danburke@endeavor.com

HML Loan Type   Both
Lending Area    Nationwide
Contact   Kim Riddle
Address   11427 Reed Hartman Hwy
City, State, Zip   Cincinnati, Ohio, 45241
Fax   877-744-3922
Web Site   www.globalequityalliance.com
Email   pm@geafund.com

HML Loan Type   Both
Lending Area   MD, DC, VA, CA, DE, NJ, NY, OH, PA, TX, FL
Contact   Jason Balin
Address   9017 Red Branch Rd. Suite H
City, State, Zip   Columbia, Maryland, 21045
Phone   443-539-8282
Fax   866-859-6019
Web Site   hardmoneybankers.com/reiclub
Email   jason@hardmoneybankers.com

HML Loan Type   Both
Lending Area   31 States
Contact   Steve Porter
Address   4725 Holladay Boulevard, Suite 230
City, State, Zip   Salt Lake City, Utah, 84117
Phone   801-878-7655
Fax   801-278-7020
Web Site   www.hardmoneyrg.com
Email   info@hardmoneyrg.com

   Lima One Capital   
HML Loan Type   Residential
Lending Area   AL, DC, FL, GA, MD, NC, OH, PA, SC & VA
Contact   John S. Warren
Address   5 Concourse Parkway Suite 3000
City, State, Zip   Atlanta, Georgia, 30328
Phone   (404) 908-0080
Fax   (404) 908-0090
Web Site   www.LimaOneCapital.com
Email   info@limaonecapital.com

I could go on, and on and on.

Only one I think is Seedcoin SFI. The three bigger start up is btc.sx which is the first leveraged trading platform and just released multiple languages to have an international appeal plus the site is pretty easy to use. Mexbt is going into a great market focused on remittances from the USA to Mexico which is a great use of btc. Hive's waggle function allows you to pay them without scanning a code and just got released with litecoin added and from their posts here looks like dogecoin soon.

All of those founders seem involved in the advancement of btc through conferences and social media. I do have minor doubts about Mexbt as I haven't seen their platform yet but I'm willing to accept that risk. Plus the head of the fund Eddy is very involved with the fund and doing conferences and talks online.

The biggest reason I think they will do well is networking is a huge part of doing well as a business. If you have someone who can connect you with who you need on good terms you can grow rather well. Plus this was a seed fund all money raised besides the admin fee was invested so 0.00025 gets you approx 0.00075 worth of investments.

Just don't expect a dividend right away. Business is slow early on and the thought dividends have to be paid monthly is non existent outside of btc securities.

That's my opinion and Im invested in them. But i also have been burned by neobee, nxxs , and scharmbeck. So I've been wrong before. However my intent is not to push any specific stock rather point out that NotLambChop is making claims that misconstrued the data and provided no validation of his claims. I'm no economist but I have a strong back ground in medical studies where stats can say what ever you want them to if you say it the right way.

Thank you for the straight answer. I wish you the best of luck on all your investments.

(also quoted for posterity)

-edit-
 Bitfinex is also a leveraged trading platform.
-edit-

Boy howdy!


Participating in drug studies doesn't count.

No need for posterity.  Here's how his "investment" has fared thus far:
http://s3.postimg.org/55qchq0oz/Capture.jpg
Image courtesy of Havelock.

Sorry that formal doctoral level statistics education and daily use of them for a living doesn't apply. As well I'm not the one making a claim off interpretation of stats but I am pointing out the large flaws in your claims.

I'm actually pleased with the drop as I've been able to double my holdings for cheap. Creating more FUD will help my fill my buy orders on Havelock.

This is why I "invest"

http://pixiuum.com/media/files/2014/06/26/pv.png

That's my actual pnl, all securities valued at bid price, all on Havelock.

Though, I'll admit, there's nothing special about Havelock.  I can do this pretty much anywhere in BTC land as long as the exchange provides a trading API.

^
OHAI, other Newfriend!  Welcome 2 Bitcointalk 2U2!

The chart you have posted is 100% bullshit, since there are no securities, singularly or in any combination, that have preformed that well on Havelock.

Protip:  Don't suck so hard at lying.  Get good :D

say whatever you want, I'm the one with 2 more BTC than when I started.   Though I did this in GLBSE as well...

Smart investors know when to buy and sell.  You are assuming buy and hold, which is the dumbest thing you can do in the current situation.

PM me if you want the complete trading history.

Also I think one of the biggest reasons Havelock's listings usually drop after Ipo which did not happen as much on cryptostocks was due to the ipo not allowing an open market until the ipo ends. Cryptostocks had more scammers but for awhile allowed those who bought ipo and can then unload it during the ipo if they chose too. Then cryptostocks instituted the ipo flag and things went to shit. Now once an ipo happens on Havelock say like SFI which was in ipo over a month. Once that month ended some that didn't realize they were required to hold the stock for that long decided to sell as soon as the ipo ended. This causes the stock to instantly drop once the ipo ends.

I have hated ipo flags but I've also learned to just wait till after the ipo people will liquidate cheaper than ipo prices so why pay the full amount.

฿0.0479 + ฿0.0143/Share > ฿0.0500 first tranche

  That is not a loss

There are good investments out there, you just need to know where to look. I haven't seen anything on Havelock which has interested me though.

There was a second and a third tranche, both over .09, which is > .0479+0143 :(

Anyhow, forget ฿0.0479, dat but a dream nao.  The current price is ฿0.0400 :(
With no buy support worth mentioning 'til ฿0.02112346 :D

To elaborate a bit, i run an automated market making algorithm on various exchanges, currently mostly on Havelock.  The bid-offer on BTC securities is large enough, and the trading fees low enough, that such algos are usually profitable without insane amounts of leverage.  The algo on average makes about 100 trades a day.

It's not all rosy though.  The particular strategy has a few problems:

• Vulnerable to sudden downward shocks in price.  For example, the crash in ASICMINER assets contributed to the drop in portfolio value at the end of May.
• Critically depends on how wide the bid-offer is compared to trading fees.  In the last two months on Havelock, the algo paid out 1.922 BTC in fees; if the fees were just a few tenth of a percent higher, this strategy will not work.  In this respect, running this strat on GLBSE was much more profitable: the algo is always a liquidity provider, and on GLBSE, only the liquidity taker paid the fees.
• Exchange operator risk: the strat is dependent on the proper functioning of the exchange.  E.g., I lost about 70% of my total profit on GLBSE when that exchange shut down.
• The strat has a relatively small capacity.  This is largely dependent on the volume on the exchanges.  The algo already accounts for a significant fraction of all trades on Havelock (>20% of non-IPO volume), so there's not much upside to its run rate unless the volume goes up significantly.

Point is, there are ways to make money on BTC securities.  Right now, there is a good balance of market inefficiencies (read: profit potential) and volume that is not available in most other places (this strat does not work well in the BTC/USD market, for example). 

I also think you should add cryptostocks listings as there are several profitable investments in there. Cryptsy, TRADER, DEBT are just some of their profitable ones.

As I said many times before, there's money to be made TRADING anything, anywhere.  As long as prices fluctuate, anyone buying on the lows and selling on the highs will make money.  By definition.  Anyone contesting this must learn to logic.

Money was made TRADING Labcoin and NEOBEE.  But this thread is not about TRADING.  It's about INVESTING.

If you're a TRADER, the market demographic is ideal for you--it's pretty much greater and greater fools.  Yum!
In this land of the blind, having as much as a white cane makes you king.
Enjoy, but this thread is not about you, it's about those poor souls who think they're "investing."

So cryptsy was a bad investment? IPO at 0.05 btc currently low bid of 0.12 btc with high of over 0.3 btc and has paid 87 btc total out in dividends? That's a bad investment to you?

If you are solely going to stick to the very narrow definition of "investing = buying at the IPO price and holding for ever" then sure.  But that's not the commonly accepted definition.  Investing is a process of continuous decision making dependent on the market conditions at the time.  And if you can't accept that, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

No matter how you define "investing," the following ain't it :D

As a long-term investment, Cryptsy nearly always was and has been a bad deal (the very first few dividends notwithstanding). As a speculative investment, it's been great for anyone holding it from the beginning. When the 'bonus' dividends stopped back in the fall, I sold out for a small profit.

Against common sense, the demand skyrocketed after this point - I would have made 4x or 5x my money if I held, but it was the rational time to sell.

How was it a bad deal just look at the numbers right? Or do you change your requirements of what's consider good when one that fit your previous definition surfaces that counter acts your intent.

So what's bad about it? Buy at ipo and hold. Great you have over doubled your investment. That great in that time frame even not factoring dividends. Are you saying you don't think it will sustain that price because it's speculative? Well then bitcoin is a bad investment as its current price is also purely speculative.

Your use of "against common sense" just shows how little understanding you have of markets and explains your dislike of them as you can't predict their movement. Every movement has a reason behind it people don't just sell or buy for no reason. There is some motivating factor be it FUD, loss of trust, new announcements, demand for other uses of the btc requiring them to liquidate their current holdings. The list goes on and on of reasons.

But you rather lash out at the intelligence of others because your more intelligent than everyone else,  right? I think you forgot to tip your Fedora to me.

He is intelligent enough to run this:


Now stop >:(

I'm pretty sure intelligence isn't validated by having an unlicensed security like that for a few months. Use it as validation when you've been doing it for several years, have regulations, growth and have adapted to large changes in the market environment. Even then I think that's more of a validation of competence and not intelligence. The whole reason start ups can be done by almost anyone is because the barriers to entry are so minimal without regulations. At best I'd say that shows you came up with a good idea and a basic understanding of how to get it going. But guess what? That's not the hard part about running a business or security.

This does provide a ton of incite though as to why your posting charts with invalid interpretations of data.

*Insight
Lrn to spelink, Einstein :D

Attack on format yet no rebuttal to content? I'm not a great speller and my phone likes to auto correct. That's fine with me as I know I have strengths and weaknesses. Luckily investing has been a strength and I'll take that over perfect spelling any day.

So you agree with my statement above? Good :-)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-eFGnR2ubppA/U2D6vElkbSI/AAAAAAAAB6E/zfDaH4VpPlU/s1600/MV5BMjMzNTIzMTkxOV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTgwODc3MTY0MTE@._V1_SX214_CR0,0,214,317_AL_.jpg

Crypsty's IPO was a very good entry point. Once they have fiat implemented they should make a few x more than they do now. However, their estimates that they will 10x volume is a little ridiculous, but I would believe 3 or even 4x as much considering that bitcoin is becoming more mainstream, and would make altcoins much easier to obtain.

No, I bought because there were a lot of unanswered questions by Paul that I thought might play to my advantage. There was no mention of when the bonus dividends would stop, how many shares would be issued and if or when a new share sale would happen. Ironically, as soon as the bonus dividends ended (and I sold), the price ramped up significantly. I still stand behind my rationale.

Another reason that I bought is I thought that the hype would spike the share price, but it did so too late for me to profit off of it.

Here are some numbers:

Average dividend across all Cryptsy paid dividends to date (including bonus dividends): 87.40680487
Total number of shares issued: 7,948
Number of weekly dividends issued: 35

Sooooo...
Average dividend per share per week: 0.000314883
Annual per-share dividend payout extrapolated from average weekly per-share payout: 0.016373917

Last Price: .1380

If Cryptsy keeps on at its same pace, you're going to need ~8 years to recoup your initial investment in dividends. People bought this thing up to .3, so it's a pretty fat chance that they'll make any return off of those shares.


Yes, I know that this is the reason that many are holding the shares. If they do finally implement this, it may pay off for shareholders. Howvever, After tracking Cryptsy for a while I realized that they have a bad habit of promoting features like this and then taking quite a while to really put them in to effect (Cryptsypoint raffles, anyone). It wasn't something that I was wiling to bank on.

Your right on your numbers the problem is your not investing in what the companies actual value is but what the perceived value is. You trade in how you think the other people will react not what you think of it. There is always an end to an investment and the best time to sell a security is when it it's at its peak of perceived value not your assessment of value so you were simply not able to accurately predict what the peak of perceived value was going to be. I get that you couldn't do that but the thing is that there are people out there that can accurately predict that. These are the people who make profit.

All the talk earlier of making a profit in USD terms is silly. If you have bitcoins to "invest", that means that your default alternative is to keep the bitcoins as bitcoins. Therefore the comparison should be between the number of bitcoins you would end up with if you invested, vs if you just kept them as bitcoins. Any investment that returns less bitcoins than you started with is a bad investment, it's not any kind of hedge against a drop in bitcoin value. And if you are trying to hedge against a drop in bitcoin value, just hold some (i.e. the vast majority for sane people) of your assets in dollars (duh).

The numbers speak for themselves, investing (buy and hold) in bitcoin securities is a losing proposition, not because of any problem with bitcoins but simply because the overwhelming majority of companies that have offered bitcoin-denominated securities are either scams or incompetent.

No entity in the world will accept accounting in Bitcoin.  That is just a fact.  Ignoring that makes you blind, or a troll.  I urge you to file tax losses for Bitcoin investments that have gone up in fiat value but down in BTC value and see what happens to you.

Very interesting discussion guys, thank you for that!


I am noob compared to what your experience in this is, but I believe that TwentySeventy has done the right thing with his investment as he describes it. He had a plan and sticked to it & made profit (even if it is small, it is still a positive investment). What Germican states above is IMHO trying to outsmart the market by trying to to know when and at what price is the peak of perceived value of that security/company - that is purely a speculation (if you have no "inside info") and a a lot of people has been burned with this kind of attitude e.g. wait...wait...still not good time...it will go higher...higher...and boom (loss). Also even if you would know where the peak of perceived value of security is, the best time to sell IMHO is just before price hits this peak.

Anyway, great discussion, keep it going!

No entity in the world world would accept accounting in apples either.  This doesn't imply it makes sense to "invest" 10 apples, get one apple back, and call it "profit."  Even if apple prices went up in the meantime to make up for your blunder.  Ignoring that makes you blind, or a troll.

Sure, if apple price increases a hundredfold while your "investment" turns your 10 apples into one, you still profit in fiat, and have to declare gains.  Only these gains are tiny compared to the gains you would have made had you NOT "invested" your apples, and had ten, instead of one, to sell at the x100 price.

http://ih3.redbubble.net/image.13550228.2410/sticker,375x360.png

This lesson was brought to you by the letter ฿ and John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation.

It's OK Anotheranonlol, you're still special 'coz God don't make no junk.  Without the likes of you, who'd wash our dishes and dig our ditches?
Stay butthurt, stay stupid, stay poor! :)

Thank you for agreeing with me.  I'm not claiming any of these "investments" outperformed Bitcoin, only that their gain/loss can't be measured in the statistics you provided.  In other words, your statistics are worthless, as they can't measure the gains you describe above and are a lazy and pathetic attempt at furthering your agenda.  At least put in real effort to get actual accounting numbers if you are going to attempt to appear credible.

This lesson was brought to you by...   :D

/discussion



I'm glad we've reached a consensus.  :)

Yes, you still profit, but the profit comes from the rise in value of the apples, not from the investment itself. The investment had brought to you a big loss.
You had been 10x better if you have not invested.


-edit-
   I see you are having a very hard time understanding that you combine two investments in one. There are two: one is the investment of dollars in btc and the other is the investment of btc in some business. Threat them appart and things will be more clear to you, don't just take the end result of those investments combined.
-edit-

@Anotheranonlol:  To show you there's no hard feelings, here's a present--the current price of your slick investings in PRTA:

http://s21.postimg.org/t9lkpydrr/Capture.jpg

I'll post some personalized condolences gifs when the price stops tanking :D

 :-* Are you okay sweetie? You usually put a little more effort in than that


What are you talking about? The only reason you'd invest 10 apple vouchers is to get more apples back. Only, by OP's warped perception of what investing entails- which contradicts commonly accepted definition - receiving more than 10 apples back still doesn't mean it was a good investment, in fact it's not even an investment at all, because the moment you realise those gains you become a trader  ???

How's them bitcoin tradin' chops treatin' you, Anotheranonlol? :D

http://s27.postimg.org/w2xivj88j/Capture.jpg

Keep digging them ditches :D

Not too badly at all recently.

Thanks for notification  :)

You keep at it, Tiger.  Without greater fools like you, making money would become hard work.
.

Thanks babe. good luck to you too.

I think both statements (about investing/value - btc/fiat) are right on their own terms.

Problem is IMHO, that btc alone does not have any real world value (it is just another currency, that is valued only in comparison with other fiat majors or goods/services), so increasing btc holding is great, but does not increase your overall real world wealth. In fact, gaining +btc from investment gives you more wealth only if you can exchange it easily for something of value to you - meal for your children, buy a new house etc or if you can swap it for widely adopted vehicle of exchange e.g. fiat majors (usd/eur/jpy etc).

You cant go directly on open market with btc just yet - so It actually makes sense as OgNasty said, to measure your investment in globally used fiat majors or other means of accepted value. If you measure your wealth solely in btc, sure you are right that having +100btc more in a month is good. But that does not tell you, how much real world wealth you actually have or gained.

Denominating wealth solely in btc would be possible once there will be whole&complete economy denominated in btc - meaning companies providing good&services will have all costs&profits&accounting and cash all in btc, and consumers would have opportunity to pay for any goods&services in btc. I do not believe that will happen anytime soon (even if I would love to see that to happen)...
  

I edited my post to explain this whole thing about "btc usd investment" thing, but I'll say it again, maybe this time you'll manage to read and understand, so, here we go (pay atention):


 Here we're talking only about the secound investment, to be clear about the investment of btc in some business. Don't mix them together and don't think about  the end result of those investments combined, take them as separate investments and focus on each of them how they performed.
 If you want only profit in usd, shure you can combine them like OgNasty is doying but this prove that you don't really understand where the profit comes from.

jonsi, you are the one who doesn't understand. At least Lambchop is just trolling... You seem to think you somehow get a magical Bitcoin call option when you trade BTC for an investment. That isn't how spending BTC works anywhere but in your mind and trying to measure an investment over time in a currency as volatile as Bitcoin is just plain dumb.

Well, I know to distinguish between my investments and see how they perform on their own. Treat more investments just like a single one is dumb in my oppinion, because you don't know from wich investments to exit.

Let's start with a few simple hypotheticals.  I'll start of by putting to rest the "You think BTC $ price will keep climbing," I'll explicitly negate it in my first premise:

1.  Assume that the value of BTC is totally unpredictable.  At any point in time, it could be anywhere from 0 to infinity/21mil.  There.

Now let's try to come up with a scenario in which it would be in your best interest to invest in a security which returns less BTC than you have put in.

2.  Assume you are investing 10 BTC, at the time when 1 BTC = $100, in a security that will return 1 BTC.

I'll make a 2x2 matrix (2 by 2 chart) that will calculate your return, in $$$, if BTC price goes up to $1,000 or falls to $1.  I'll make a gif to make reading it simpler:

http://s28.postimg.org/b70t55u71/matrix.gif

You should be able to see that regardless of how BTC price moves, it is better to hold than to "invest." 
If you disagree, try to describe how.  If you agree, but can imagine a scenario where it still would be profitable to invest in a security that loses BTC, please describe it as clearly as possible.   

There was a time where Havelock was actually an amazing place.

HIM did a 1-10 split, twice. HIM was far from "Lol" rating. You forgot about Satoshi Dice as well.

Yeah, Havelock is shit now, but it used to be a goldmine back in the day.

You mean before it was "bought" by a Panamanian shell?
*Someone else mentioned SD, wasn't that on MPEx?  If you post/pm some links to SD (and HIM?) data, i'll update the chart.
Thanks.

Yes, you will have tax consequences because you actually made cash, but you're still an idiot for being happy about investing one bitcoin that you bought at 200 and getting back half a bitcoin when the price is 600 because you could have had a much bigger profit (in terms of cash) by literally doing nothing.

this isn't saying "oh man, if I would have taken my rent money 20 years ago and put it into apple and lived on the street for a month I'd be rich now." You had the bitcoins in your hand. If you would have kept them in your hand you would be in a better spot than if you gave them to these businesses.

Nothing beats the tried and true method of BTC - HODL

All of these scenarios assume that he doesn't keep earning well into the future. They also ignore diversification (for those that are fiat based).

Someone spending USD to buy BTC, investing it and cashing out the proceeds back to USD accomplishes this if the price went up. Too lazy to go read a 5 page argument to see if this was accounted for.

 you would buy BTC with USD, invest it, then cash out back to USD with net gain in USD but net loss in BTC over keeping in cold storage and consider than in your best interest? Didn't think this thread was even needed but posts like these seem to suggest otherwise.

I know the standard thought process around here is that BTC will hit a trillion dollars so hold hold hold but there are a lot of people that can't / don't depend on that.

You also don't seem to understand what I'm saying because you are still thinking in terms of BTC. Someone might want to invest $100, buy a $100 coin and do just that. Let's say the hypothetical return is .1 BTC per month to make it easy and that the price of BTC rises $100 per month.

After

1 Month  -  .10 BTC worth $20
2 Months - .10 BTC worth $30
3 Months - .10 BTC worth $40
4 Months - .10 BTC worth $50
5 Months - .10 BTC worth $60
6 Months - .10 BTC worth $70
7 Months - .10 BTC worth $80
8 Months - .10 BTC worth $90
9 Months - .10 BTC worth $100
10 Months - .10 BTC worth $110
11 Months - .10 BTC worth $120
12 Months - .10 BTC worth $130

$900 return in a year.  Yes, if they held one coin it would be worth $1300 but they wouldn't get some USD back each month in the meantime and if the price flattened they also wouldn't get returns well into the future (assuming a decent offer).

Then you have to consider that whatever "shares" of a company they have that is now paying $130 USD worth of dividends per month would be worth around the same number of multiples meaning those purchased for $100 are now worth $1300.

This entire thread was started to make the OP appear smarter than everyone else. I agree that there are some shit tier "investments" out there but that is not what was in question. He asked why people invest and the above is but one example of why someone might do just that.

Lol no.  

OP did't set out to prove that he was smarter than everyone, only smarter than those who think that they make money by losing money--admittedly, not much of a task.

What you have described above is a profitable investment, paying monthly dividends.  The "investments" on Havelock are not that.

To use your template, they work like this:

After

1 Month  -  pay .10 BTC in divs, share price drops by .20BTC.  total net loss = .10 BTC.
2 Months - pay .09 BTC in divs, share price drops by .18BTC.  total net loss = .20 BTC.
3 Months - pay .05 BTC in divs, share price drops by .15BTC.  total net loss = .30 BTC
etc., etc., etc.
[OPTIONAL] 4th month:  Run away, KTHXBAI!

But hey, hats off for managing to sell the idea of a secrit pr0nz site.  I guess you really can't go broke by banking on the stupidity of others.
gg bro :D

With XXXprofit it's the only security that I made profit just on dividents. +100% return in less than 6 months.
P.S. The site exists, only that you will never find out about it.


-edit-
 So please Lamp or MP or whoever you are, don't call me stupid, keep this for Havelock investors that lost a big part of their money.
-edit-

@jonsi:  It's the securities section equivalent of "reputation loans" that are so popular in bitcoin.

Offer something like a secrit pr0nz site, make good on it, losing zero coin.
Use your newfound credibility to offer... oh, let's try something from a different extreme, something mundane and ubiquitous like... old washers and dryers.  
Yeah! :D

Your beautiful chart is correct. But your assumption is primitive. If BTC price drops to $1 this will dramatically affect the Bitcoin economy. It shows a significant drop in demand and makes it very easy for companies to acquire Bitcoins. I dare to generalize that if Bitcoin price drops to $1 then that company will be able to return 100 BTC instead of your assumed 1 BTC. In this scenario the investment was a success in pure BItcoin terms although still a loss in fiat terms.

This was previously covered.  Those who claim that bitcoin securities are a hedge against BTC are simply ignoring the available data.  When BTC price goes up, the securities prices don't correspondingly go down, and when BTC price halved, securities prices did't double.
This is all quite easy to read from bitcoin price charts and securities price charts available directly from Havelock.

TL;DR:  Interesting theory disproved by empirical data.

*This also ignores "securities" like PETA, which *require* high BTC prices to be profitable (mine BTC and have fiat overhead).  If BTC tanks, so do these stocks, but much quicker :D

Edit:  Here is a simple trick to examine the negative correlation [or lack of it] between bitcoin price and the price of bitcoin securities.  No need to download data and fire up Excel or Gnuplot--simply superimpose an inverted screencap of bitcoin price (shrink/stretch to line up the dates) over the stock price of your choice.  Like so:

http://s8.postimg.org/ytstnf9h1/cor.jpg

Well, I don't really care as long as I made a profit, do I?

@jonsi: Of course not.  Money's money.  But this has as much in common with investing as winning a game of Three Card Monte.

Then I prefer it this way over loosing money in real "investments" on Havelock.

You've been proven incorrect about every single thing you pulled out of your ass in regards to me. I assure you, I didn't play some long game with a websites that you specifically don't know about while others do in order to come up with the brilliant plan of concocting some elaborate story about washing machines. I've been in the business going on 7 years, it has grown year over year and it is real.

It is a 15,000 square foot borefest. If I wanted to come up with some elaborate scheme to steal Bitcoin I would have chosen something that would be more widely accepted in order to raise funds much more quickly.

Talk shit about Havelock all you'd like, if the securities there suck then that is their problem. Until I do something worthy of your scorn please refrain from making things up to complain about as everything you've come up with so far is pure conjecture.

Playing cards are infinitely lighter than refrigerators. You'd think someone smart enough to come up with the elaborate schemes you fantasize about would pick something less likely to give them a bad back.

RLY?


Unlike the rubes who send you money, I'm generally unimpressed by assurances from a d00d who, amidst all the sperging, is still unwilling to giving me his name.


Heard this argument again and again, from Labcoin to NEOBEE to ActiveMining to CoinReturn.  "If it's a scam, then why X?"
It's X because it's X, it's X because suckers think scams don't X, so all a scammer has to do is X to prove he ain't a scamming.

Stop acting as pure as the driven snow.  You are a criminal, if for no other reason then for willingly circumventing securities/finance laws of your state and country.  Your crimes are petty and common, and I personally couldn't care less about them, but it establishes your willingness to break laws.  The only questions remaining are "which laws?" and "to what extent?"

Am I 100% sure that you will scam?  No.  Only 99% sure.  Just as I was only 99% sure that your major competitor in the pr0nz biz, Klye the camwhore, would scam.  99% is good enough for me.

Edit: Added red font in hopes of not having to repeat this as often.

Lol. That's funny to hear from the guy claiming to run a security.

^
Never have.  And most certainly never claimed to.

Today's lesson:  Difference between "he" and "I."
Tomorrow:  Shapes and colors. <==FUN!!1!

*My patience pales only in light of my magnanimity. Seldom if ever do I get upset with those under my tutelage.  No matter how abjectly obtuse they may be.  You needn't worry :)

Haha guess I was having to much fun arguing with you and missed that it was a different poster with a similar view. Don't worry thought I still have the same lack of confidence in your abilities to understand markets and investing in general.

Klye is a moron and this was completely obvious to anyone that cared to look. He actually crashed and burned way sooner than I thought though, I guessed 3 months max.

gonna sell al my shares at havelock and cryptostocks, what a joke.

Question is: why did you buy them in the first place :)

I'm a hodler of a couple of 'securities' myself. And indeed. Except from Buy-A-Hash they all cost money. Poor us. But I learned.

because i thought i was gonna earn some money. But with all the new decentralized apps, such as decentralized exchanges and gambling sites, the current securities all will go bust because they are to expensive. Decentralized apps cost a fraction of what the centralized apps costs.

I've been in real estate for 8+ years and worked with dozens of investors. I've worked with many who eventually went under due to a market downturn (We're talking losses of half a million to one million dollars over the course of 6-9 months). I just don't feel comfortable taking other people's money, using it for a more risky venture (Flips) then have the job to report to them that all their money is gone due to a market downturn.

I was clear when I started RENT I wanted to do rentals, not flips. The reason I'm talking about diversification and flips is because that's what the investors are telling me they want. We've got a good base of properties and are bringing in pretty decent cash now, because of that I can look at alternative ideas, especially once we get leverage.


The attempt was for hard money. We ABSOLUTELY, CAN NOT use hard money to refinance our existing properties. The cost is too high (12% APY + 3 points) and our average yield is right around 16%. That would leave us a whopping 4% maximum return per property. It just doesn't make sense to hard money lend on our rentals unless we can start finding properties that return 40%-50% APY. That makes sense for flips, not for rentals.

Banks won't lend to NEW businesses with a short track record even if they have hard assets (property). They want to see, normally, 2 years of profit before they'll do a mortgage. If you know of a bank that doesn't do this, i'll send them financial information and try to get a loan. The reason we want this kind of financing is because rates are generally 4%-6% and it would give us the ability to arbitrage between the 4%-6% bank rate and our 16%+ margin on properties.

Not sure I'm understanding you.  You seem to be saying that borrowing at such rates makes no sense, but are trying to borrow at 14% from forum members here:


???

As stated in red - It doesn't make sense on the existing properties to lever. It's a completely different story for flips though.

Flips are usually short term, high profit. On $100k loaned as hard money @ 14% APY the interest payment is $1166/mo.  Most flips will take less than  6 months to do, many are only 4 months. So your total cost for the loan will be only $4466-$6996 which is roughly 4.5%-6.5% plus whatever points you're paying. A 4.5%-6.5% interest cost on a propery that returns 50%-70% in the course of less than 6 months makes sense. Said 14% loan does not make sense on a property that returns 16% a year.

Don't invest in BTC investments without collateral. Simple.