Why Do You Invest?

[NotLambchop]

...
If you are solely going to stick to the very narrow definition of "investing ...

No matter how you define "investing," the following ain't it

... i run an automated market making algorithm on various exchanges, currently mostly on Havelock....

[1715199217]

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[1715199217]

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[1715199217]

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[twentyseventy]

So cryptsy was a bad investment? IPO at 0.05 btc currently low bid of 0.12 btc with high of over 0.3 btc and has paid 87 btc total out in dividends? That's a bad investment to you?

As a long-term investment, Cryptsy nearly always was and has been a bad deal (the very first few dividends notwithstanding). As a speculative investment, it's been great for anyone holding it from the beginning. When the 'bonus' dividends stopped back in the fall, I sold out for a small profit.

Against common sense, the demand skyrocketed after this point - I would have made 4x or 5x my money if I held, but it was the rational time to sell.

[Germican]

So cryptsy was a bad investment? IPO at 0.05 btc currently low bid of 0.12 btc with high of over 0.3 btc and has paid 87 btc total out in dividends? That's a bad investment to you?

As a long-term investment, Cryptsy nearly always was and has been a bad deal (the very first few dividends notwithstanding). As a speculative investment, it's been great for anyone holding it from the beginning. When the 'bonus' dividends stopped back in the fall, I sold out for a small profit.

Against common sense, the demand skyrocketed after this point - I would have made 4x or 5x my money if I held, but it was the rational time to sell.

How was it a bad deal just look at the numbers right? Or do you change your requirements of what's consider good when one that fit your previous definition surfaces that counter acts your intent.

So what's bad about it? Buy at ipo and hold. Great you have over doubled your investment. That great in that time frame even not factoring dividends. Are you saying you don't think it will sustain that price because it's speculative? Well then bitcoin is a bad investment as its current price is also purely speculative.

Your use of "against common sense" just shows how little understanding you have of markets and explains your dislike of them as you can't predict their movement. Every movement has a reason behind it people don't just sell or buy for no reason. There is some motivating factor be it FUD, loss of trust, new announcements, demand for other uses of the btc requiring them to liquidate their current holdings. The list goes on and on of reasons.

But you rather lash out at the intelligence of others because your more intelligent than everyone else,  right? I think you forgot to tip your Fedora to me.

[NotLambchop]

...
But you rather lash out at the intelligence of others because your more intelligent than everyone else,  right? I think you forgot to tip your Fedora to me.

He is intelligent enough to run this:

...
Bitcoin Difficulty Derivative (B.EXCH; B.MINE; B.SELL):
This [three-part offering] is not an investment but a ((zero sum)-fee) game.  The issuer is open and honest about this.
...

Now stop

[Germican]

...
But you rather lash out at the intelligence of others because your more intelligent than everyone else,  right? I think you forgot to tip your Fedora to me.

He is intelligent enough to run this:

...
Bitcoin Difficulty Derivative (B.EXCH; B.MINE; B.SELL):
This [three-part offering] is not an investment but a ((zero sum)-fee) game.  The issuer is open and honest about this.
...

Now stop

I'm pretty sure intelligence isn't validated by having an unlicensed security like that for a few months. Use it as validation when you've been doing it for several years, have regulations, growth and have adapted to large changes in the market environment. Even then I think that's more of a validation of competence and not intelligence. The whole reason start ups can be done by almost anyone is because the barriers to entry are so minimal without regulations. At best I'd say that shows you came up with a good idea and a basic understanding of how to get it going. But guess what? That's not the hard part about running a business or security.

This does provide a ton of incite though as to why your posting charts with invalid interpretations of data.

[NotLambchop]

...
This does provide a ton of incite...

*Insight
Lrn to spelink, Einstein

[Germican]

...
This does provide a ton of incite...

*Insight
Lrn to spelink, Einstein

Attack on format yet no rebuttal to content? I'm not a great speller and my phone likes to auto correct. That's fine with me as I know I have strengths and weaknesses. Luckily investing has been a strength and I'll take that over perfect spelling any day.

So you agree with my statement above? Good :-)

[NotLambchop]

...Luckily investing has been a strength and I'll take that over perfect spelling any day.
...

[Germican]

...Luckily investing has been a strength and I'll take that over perfect spelling any day.
...

[AcoinL.L.C]

Crypsty's IPO was a very good entry point. Once they have fiat implemented they should make a few x more than they do now. However, their estimates that they will 10x volume is a little ridiculous, but I would believe 3 or even 4x as much considering that bitcoin is becoming more mainstream, and would make altcoins much easier to obtain.

[twentyseventy]

So cryptsy was a bad investment? IPO at 0.05 btc currently low bid of 0.12 btc with high of over 0.3 btc and has paid 87 btc total out in dividends? That's a bad investment to you?

As a long-term investment, Cryptsy nearly always was and has been a bad deal (the very first few dividends notwithstanding). As a speculative investment, it's been great for anyone holding it from the beginning. When the 'bonus' dividends stopped back in the fall, I sold out for a small profit.

Against common sense, the demand skyrocketed after this point - I would have made 4x or 5x my money if I held, but it was the rational time to sell.

How was it a bad deal just look at the numbers right? Or do you change your requirements of what's consider good when one that fit your previous definition surfaces that counter acts your intent.

So what's bad about it? Buy at ipo and hold. Great you have over doubled your investment. That great in that time frame even not factoring dividends. Are you saying you don't think it will sustain that price because it's speculative? Well then bitcoin is a bad investment as its current price is also purely speculative.

Your use of "against common sense" just shows how little understanding you have of markets and explains your dislike of them as you can't predict their movement. Every movement has a reason behind it people don't just sell or buy for no reason. There is some motivating factor be it FUD, loss of trust, new announcements, demand for other uses of the btc requiring them to liquidate their current holdings. The list goes on and on of reasons.

But you rather lash out at the intelligence of others because your more intelligent than everyone else,  right? I think you forgot to tip your Fedora to me.

No, I bought because there were a lot of unanswered questions by Paul that I thought might play to my advantage. There was no mention of when the bonus dividends would stop, how many shares would be issued and if or when a new share sale would happen. Ironically, as soon as the bonus dividends ended (and I sold), the price ramped up significantly. I still stand behind my rationale.

Another reason that I bought is I thought that the hype would spike the share price, but it did so too late for me to profit off of it.

Here are some numbers:

Average dividend across all Cryptsy paid dividends to date (including bonus dividends): 87.40680487
Total number of shares issued: 7,948
Number of weekly dividends issued: 35

Sooooo...
Average dividend per share per week: 0.000314883
Annual per-share dividend payout extrapolated from average weekly per-share payout: 0.016373917

Last Price: .1380

If Cryptsy keeps on at its same pace, you're going to need ~8 years to recoup your initial investment in dividends. People bought this thing up to .3, so it's a pretty fat chance that they'll make any return off of those shares.

Crypsty's IPO was a very good entry point. Once they have fiat implemented they should make a few x more than they do now. However, their estimates that they will 10x volume is a little ridiculous, but I would believe 3 or even 4x as much considering that bitcoin is becoming more mainstream, and would make altcoins much easier to obtain.

Yes, I know that this is the reason that many are holding the shares. If they do finally implement this, it may pay off for shareholders. Howvever, After tracking Cryptsy for a while I realized that they have a bad habit of promoting features like this and then taking quite a while to really put them in to effect (Cryptsypoint raffles, anyone). It wasn't something that I was wiling to bank on.

[Germican]

So cryptsy was a bad investment? IPO at 0.05 btc currently low bid of 0.12 btc with high of over 0.3 btc and has paid 87 btc total out in dividends? That's a bad investment to you?

As a long-term investment, Cryptsy nearly always was and has been a bad deal (the very first few dividends notwithstanding). As a speculative investment, it's been great for anyone holding it from the beginning. When the 'bonus' dividends stopped back in the fall, I sold out for a small profit.

Against common sense, the demand skyrocketed after this point - I would have made 4x or 5x my money if I held, but it was the rational time to sell.

How was it a bad deal just look at the numbers right? Or do you change your requirements of what's consider good when one that fit your previous definition surfaces that counter acts your intent.

So what's bad about it? Buy at ipo and hold. Great you have over doubled your investment. That great in that time frame even not factoring dividends. Are you saying you don't think it will sustain that price because it's speculative? Well then bitcoin is a bad investment as its current price is also purely speculative.

Your use of "against common sense" just shows how little understanding you have of markets and explains your dislike of them as you can't predict their movement. Every movement has a reason behind it people don't just sell or buy for no reason. There is some motivating factor be it FUD, loss of trust, new announcements, demand for other uses of the btc requiring them to liquidate their current holdings. The list goes on and on of reasons.

But you rather lash out at the intelligence of others because your more intelligent than everyone else,  right? I think you forgot to tip your Fedora to me.

No, I bought because there were a lot of unanswered questions by Paul that I thought might play to my advantage. There was no mention of when the bonus dividends would stop, how many shares would be issued and if or when a new share sale would happen. Ironically, as soon as the bonus dividends ended (and I sold), the price ramped up significantly. I still stand behind my rationale.

Another reason that I bought is I thought that the hype would spike the share price, but it did so too late for me to profit off of it.

Here are some numbers:

Average dividend across all Cryptsy paid dividends to date (including bonus dividends): 87.40680487
Total number of shares issued: 7,948
Number of weekly dividends issued: 35

Sooooo...
Average dividend per share per week: 0.000314883
Annual per-share dividend payout extrapolated from average weekly per-share payout: 0.016373917

Last Price: .1380

If Cryptsy keeps on at its same pace, you're going to need ~8 years to recoup your initial investment in dividends. People bought this thing up to .3, so it's a pretty fat chance that they'll make any return off of those shares.

Crypsty's IPO was a very good entry point. Once they have fiat implemented they should make a few x more than they do now. However, their estimates that they will 10x volume is a little ridiculous, but I would believe 3 or even 4x as much considering that bitcoin is becoming more mainstream, and would make altcoins much easier to obtain.

Yes, I know that this is the reason that many are holding the shares. If they do finally implement this, it may pay off for shareholders. Howvever, After tracking Cryptsy for a while I realized that they have a bad habit of promoting features like this and then taking quite a while to really put them in to effect (Cryptsypoint raffles, anyone). It wasn't something that I was wiling to bank on.

So cryptsy was a bad investment? IPO at 0.05 btc currently low bid of 0.12 btc with high of over 0.3 btc and has paid 87 btc total out in dividends? That's a bad investment to you?

As a long-term investment, Cryptsy nearly always was and has been a bad deal (the very first few dividends notwithstanding). As a speculative investment, it's been great for anyone holding it from the beginning. When the 'bonus' dividends stopped back in the fall, I sold out for a small profit.

Against common sense, the demand skyrocketed after this point - I would have made 4x or 5x my money if I held, but it was the rational time to sell.

How was it a bad deal just look at the numbers right? Or do you change your requirements of what's consider good when one that fit your previous definition surfaces that counter acts your intent.

So what's bad about it? Buy at ipo and hold. Great you have over doubled your investment. That great in that time frame even not factoring dividends. Are you saying you don't think it will sustain that price because it's speculative? Well then bitcoin is a bad investment as its current price is also purely speculative.

Your use of "against common sense" just shows how little understanding you have of markets and explains your dislike of them as you can't predict their movement. Every movement has a reason behind it people don't just sell or buy for no reason. There is some motivating factor be it FUD, loss of trust, new announcements, demand for other uses of the btc requiring them to liquidate their current holdings. The list goes on and on of reasons.

But you rather lash out at the intelligence of others because your more intelligent than everyone else,  right? I think you forgot to tip your Fedora to me.

No, I bought because there were a lot of unanswered questions by Paul that I thought might play to my advantage. There was no mention of when the bonus dividends would stop, how many shares would be issued and if or when a new share sale would happen. Ironically, as soon as the bonus dividends ended (and I sold), the price ramped up significantly. I still stand behind my rationale.

Another reason that I bought is I thought that the hype would spike the share price, but it did so too late for me to profit off of it.

Here are some numbers:

Average dividend across all Cryptsy paid dividends to date (including bonus dividends): 87.40680487
Total number of shares issued: 7,948
Number of weekly dividends issued: 35

Sooooo...
Average dividend per share per week: 0.000314883
Annual per-share dividend payout extrapolated from average weekly per-share payout: 0.016373917

Last Price: .1380

If Cryptsy keeps on at its same pace, you're going to need ~8 years to recoup your initial investment in dividends. People bought this thing up to .3, so it's a pretty fat chance that they'll make any return off of those shares.

Crypsty's IPO was a very good entry point. Once they have fiat implemented they should make a few x more than they do now. However, their estimates that they will 10x volume is a little ridiculous, but I would believe 3 or even 4x as much considering that bitcoin is becoming more mainstream, and would make altcoins much easier to obtain.

Yes, I know that this is the reason that many are holding the shares. If they do finally implement this, it may pay off for shareholders. Howvever, After tracking Cryptsy for a while I realized that they have a bad habit of promoting features like this and then taking quite a while to really put them in to effect (Cryptsypoint raffles, anyone). It wasn't something that I was wiling to bank on.

Your right on your numbers the problem is your not investing in what the companies actual value is but what the perceived value is. You trade in how you think the other people will react not what you think of it. There is always an end to an investment and the best time to sell a security is when it it's at its peak of perceived value not your assessment of value so you were simply not able to accurately predict what the peak of perceived value was going to be. I get that you couldn't do that but the thing is that there are people out there that can accurately predict that. These are the people who make profit.

[Bonam]

All the talk earlier of making a profit in USD terms is silly. If you have bitcoins to "invest", that means that your default alternative is to keep the bitcoins as bitcoins. Therefore the comparison should be between the number of bitcoins you would end up with if you invested, vs if you just kept them as bitcoins. Any investment that returns less bitcoins than you started with is a bad investment, it's not any kind of hedge against a drop in bitcoin value. And if you are trying to hedge against a drop in bitcoin value, just hold some (i.e. the vast majority for sane people) of your assets in dollars (duh).

The numbers speak for themselves, investing (buy and hold) in bitcoin securities is a losing proposition, not because of any problem with bitcoins but simply because the overwhelming majority of companies that have offered bitcoin-denominated securities are either scams or incompetent.

[OgNasty]

No entity in the world will accept accounting in Bitcoin.  That is just a fact.  Ignoring that makes you blind, or a troll.  I urge you to file tax losses for Bitcoin investments that have gone up in fiat value but down in BTC value and see what happens to you.

[c2m]

Very interesting discussion guys, thank you for that!

Your right on your numbers the problem is your not investing in what the companies actual value is but what the perceived value is. You trade in how you think the other people will react not what you think of it. There is always an end to an investment and the best time to sell a security is when it it's at its peak of perceived value not your assessment of value so you were simply not able to accurately predict what the peak of perceived value was going to be. I get that you couldn't do that but the thing is that there are people out there that can accurately predict that. These are the people who make profit.

I am noob compared to what your experience in this is, but I believe that TwentySeventy has done the right thing with his investment as he describes it. He had a plan and sticked to it & made profit (even if it is small, it is still a positive investment). What Germican states above is IMHO trying to outsmart the market by trying to to know when and at what price is the peak of perceived value of that security/company - that is purely a speculation (if you have no "inside info") and a a lot of people has been burned with this kind of attitude e.g. wait...wait...still not good time...it will go higher...higher...and boom (loss). Also even if you would know where the peak of perceived value of security is, the best time to sell IMHO is just before price hits this peak.

Anyway, great discussion, keep it going!

[NotLambchop]

No entity in the world will accept accounting in Bitcoin.  That is just a fact.  Ignoring that makes you blind, or a troll.  I urge you to file tax losses for Bitcoin investments that have gone up in fiat value but down in BTC value and see what happens to you.

No entity in the world world would accept accounting in apples either.  This doesn't imply it makes sense to "invest" 10 apples, get one apple back, and call it "profit."  Even if apple prices went up in the meantime to make up for your blunder.  Ignoring that makes you blind, or a troll.

Sure, if apple price increases a hundredfold while your "investment" turns your 10 apples into one, you still profit in fiat, and have to declare gains.  Only these gains are tiny compared to the gains you would have made had you NOT "invested" your apples, and had ten, instead of one, to sell at the x100 price.



This lesson was brought to you by the letter ฿ and John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation.

[NotLambchop]

... Between you and me I don't even know what a GPG signed contract is!!11...

It's OK Anotheranonlol, you're still special 'coz God don't make no junk.  Without the likes of you, who'd wash our dishes and dig our ditches?
Stay butthurt, stay stupid, stay poor!

[OgNasty]

Sure, if apple price increases a hundredfold while your "investment" turns your 10 apples into one, you still profit...

Thank you for agreeing with me.  I'm not claiming any of these "investments" outperformed Bitcoin, only that their gain/loss can't be measured in the statistics you provided.  In other words, your statistics are worthless, as they can't measure the gains you describe above and are a lazy and pathetic attempt at furthering your agenda.  At least put in real effort to get actual accounting numbers if you are going to attempt to appear credible.

This lesson was brought to you by...  

/discussion

Yes, you still profit

I'm glad we've reached a consensus.  

[jonsi]

Sure, if apple price increases a hundredfold while your "investment" turns your 10 apples into one, you still profit...

Thank you for agreeing with me.  I'm not claiming any of these "investments" outperformed Bitcoin, only that their gain/loss can't be measured in the statistics you provided.  In other words, your statistics are worthless, as they can't measure the gains you describe above and are a lazy and pathetic attempt at furthering your agenda.  At least put in real effort to get actual accounting numbers if you are going to attempt to appear credible.

This lesson was brought to you by...  

/discussion

Yes, you still profit, but the profit comes from the rise in value of the apples, not from the investment itself. The investment had brought to you a big loss.
You had been 10x better if you have not invested.


-edit-
   I see you are having a very hard time understanding that you combine two investments in one. There are two: one is the investment of dollars in btc and the other is the investment of btc in some business. Threat them appart and things will be more clear to you, don't just take the end result of those investments combined.
-edit-

[NotLambchop]

@Anotheranonlol:  To show you there's no hard feelings, here's a present--the current price of your slick investings in PRTA:



I'll post some personalized condolences gifs when the price stops tanking