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did you flip your sale and buy back rates around?

This is your contract: ???

<facepalm>

Nice use of 20 BTC! That's 5 BTC per letter.

I went to the contract to see if it mentioned what you intend to do with the funds. Perhaps you can answer it here for those prepared to invest in a test contract.

so this means you will keep (part) of the funds as non-btc (hardware, fiat)? what will you do if the bitcoin price takes a jump?

Hi TyGrr,

i'am very interested in investing, can you garuantee enought volume for buying back those stocks? GLBSE shows 1000 shares of volume for 0.1 atm.

this. Otherwise, this looks pretty awesome.

Deposit of 300 BTC done.

How many GLBSE loans are you going to take out?!

Correct me if I'm wrong; This is the second (third counting your IPO for TyGrrTech) time you've done this? Have the others paid investors back yet?

You can monitor repayment of capital on the BIB.goat bond at this address: http://blockexplorer.com/address/1KczyCc9YtXt9XiiXwbmgs4nZgfMebMWUk

Current status: 90 or 344 BTC repaid.

He's already beyond his interest date on the last loan he took AFAIK and only 25% has been repayed. Is this bond to cover the other? Unlike the last bond there is NO security in this one. Roughly $40,000 has been received now as far as I can tell. Not personally questioning you goat but this is pretty deep water.

Never said due date, "Beyond interest date". Your contract on BIB.Goat states interest will start to accumulate at 2% after 4 months, created in November. It is now March. Not stating that you needed to have it repayed by them, but rather that on 25% has been repayed in that time. That's 5 coins a month and at the repayment rate/exchange rate that's a large chunk.

BIB.Goat Loan from BIB 344 BTC @ ~ $3.2/BTC = $1156
$4,500 of equipment 'loan' long term mining contract open to public on the GLBSE (TyGrr)
TyGrr-Bank - 5,000 shares IPO @ 0.1BTC = 500 BTC @ $4.85/BTC = $2,425 (Share Quantity Issued states 50,000 Shares?!)
Totals: $8,081

Now, why please does that say 50,000 shares issued? ($40,000 was taking into account this number and is a mistake, my apologies for that)

Do you still own 1,050 shares in TyGrr?

This is not a personal attack on you, don't take it that way. This is about transparency. You have loans out that are not repayed yet and you are asking for another but calling it a bank...

No one ever complained about Shakaru either, shit happens and now unfortunately many are at his throat. Glad to hear you have 2,000 BTC in FirstPirate in case something does happen to recover people losses.

AWESOME! Just reinvested the dividends :D

Thank you so much for offering this service! I haven't seen any stock on GLBSE that can offer that kind of return to investment!

wow, some questions, goat:

• It says there are 50.000 issues in all, 5146 on sale. Does this mean you already sold 50000-5146 = 44854 issues totalling 4619.96 BTC?!?
• If not: how many did you sell?

You mean 10000? 4642 have already been sold.

how do you know 4642 have been sold? adding up the bars on bitcoincharts gives me a volume of 1100 (roughly), so no more than that could've been sold, right?


He's offering to buy back 1000 at 0.1 BTC as promised. But if "I only listed 1000 for sale" is correct, how can there be 5146 on the ask side?

I'm confused.

check http://charts.glbse.com/markets/TyGrr-Bank/trades.html (http://charts.glbse.com/markets/TyGrr-Bank/trades.html). Unless he was buying them back at 0.103, he sold 4642 shares. I also remember there were almost 10000 outstanding shares at the beginning.

Thanks a lot, this helped. Apparently if you set the chart time range to "all time", it only displays back to march 9th.

Thanks.

I see what you did there.  You are getting a portion of the bond a free 0% weekly loan.

You should be buying them back at .103 BTC instead of .100 BTC to give the bond holders "3% each week".  You state that it is not necessary for the bondholder to hold the bond for a whole week to get the dividend payment of 0.003 BTC per share. If someone buys the bond at 0.103 BTC and holds it for a week and gets 0.003 BTC, then when they go to sell it at 0.100 BTC you will essentially be getting a 0% weekly loan.

The bond holder would have to hold the bond for 2 weeks to receive the "3% each week" rate.

Selling at 0.100 BTC and buying back at 0.097 BTC is the same thing as selling at 0.103 BTC and buying back at 0.100.  The difference is still 0.003 BTC.

You could not tell people the time you are going to be releasing the dividend payment, but maybe the best option is to change the OP and state that 3% dividend is possible after 2 weeks of holding the bond.  After 2 weeks there really is no issue.

I invested some BTCs on TyGrr-Bank. Its return rate is one of the highest on GLBSE. :)

Currently only 1/5, that is 10,000 shares were sold. With 4/5 of the total shares left.

Is 50,000 just a randomly chosen number as some kind of buffer for emergency, or do
you have some short-term plans to enlarge your loan? Thanks.

Thanks for your quick reply.

We are now preparing for an IPO of a venture capital fund. I've been considering TyGrr-Bank as one of the most promising investees for our bootstrapping. But it seems that we are already late for your IPO, and we are worried that the market price of this bond will speedily increase to a level we couldn't afford. So we are glad to hear that you have a different type of bond listing soon, and I will study it as soon as you are ready to disclose some details.

My 0.02 BTC on the subject:

Be it 0.103/0.10 or 0.10/0.97 (it is a difference, percentage-wise), I think it's really good to do it this way. The "secondary" market handles everything in between really well and I think it's fair.

As to "you have to hold it for 2 weeks to get 3%", this is not necessarily true, exactly because of the secondary market. At the beginning of the week it would be disadvantageous to buy at 0.103, but there are people that just collected dividends and want to sell. Supply and demand will meet somewhere in the middle, maybe at 0.101. As the week goes on, prices will rise again because dividends are soon to be payed.

EDIT: of course this only works this way when IPO shares for 0.103 are available. Now it's a different kind of game (IPO shares gone), prices will rise well above 0.103. Goat, what's your policy on releasing more shares? I hope you only release them IF you can make use of the money? I'd rather see you not issue more and keep the 3% dividends as opposed to issuing more and lowering dividends.

I don't see why anyone would buy at over .103 when goat can buy back at any time he wants.  That just wouldn't make sense.  If the interest accumulated instead of paying out, then yes, the value would increase, but since the weekly interest is distributed to the bondholders, I'm not sure whether the bond is ever worth more than .1 again.  The question is will there be a guaranteed final dividend payment immediately before the buyback (regardless of when said buyback may occur)?  If so, then the bond is always worth up to itself plus 1 week's dividend, otherwise, paying .103 (or even .1000001) could be a losing proposition.

Please clarify. How can he buy back at any time?

Thanks for the explanation.

Very reassuring.

As for some people buying above .103, that is just some speculation some people are willing to take.  Maybe too risky as you state you won't offer 3% forever, but even making 1% a week is better than most returns for the dividends of mining companies listed.

true. If TyGrr-Bank runs for a while with no new shares and constant dividends (trust builds), I can see people trading it at 0.11 or more. It's a gamble, allright, but isn't investing in this a gamble to begin with? The returns are juicy, people might just "want in" and get carried away.

We could see our first debt bubble.

Just sold 100 TyGrr-Bank for 0.11 BTC/share. I think the market wants you to lower interest rates. What's your treshold?

Damn, GLBSE screwed up my sell order.  I was selling about the same amount for less than you but the order vanished.  :-[


Are you going to honor the 3% dividend for the upcoming dividend on Tuesday?

Oh yes, I forgot about that.

This is fixed.

Does this mean the 2000 bnew onds will be listed on April 3rd, or at same point before then?  Also, will they be sold for .103 or 1.025, and will the lowering rate affect buyback price when the time comes?

If the interest and buy back rate is lowred, it should be considered to compensate the loss of those shareholder, who bought at 0.103 because they can't sell their shares for 0.103 back.

In this case this could be easily done in paying 3.5% into the upcomming dividend.

It could be done even the other way around, if Goat deceides to raise dividend and buy back rate anytime in the future in lowering the last dividend payout before raising the dividend rate.

What do other shareholders think about?

[[/quote]
What do other shareholders think about?
[/quote]

I am fine with what Goat is proposing. He has been open with all of his communication. If anyone is upside down when the rate lowers it is because they were speculating.

I agree with 2 weeks notice being reasonable.  I also find it preferrable.  If someone buys at .103 after that 2nd weekly dividend, they clearly weren't doing their research (even the thread title already indicates the change).

Update the OP with any changes like dropping the rate and the date that it will be put in place, once the final decision is made.

Hi Goat,

please don't get me wrong here. I feel that you acted always fair to your shareholders, adjusting the dividend rate is perfectly fine!

Please forget my proposal, i really think we are fine here.

Sidenote: Just bought another 1.2k shares because i really like you :D But if buying more shares of TyGrr-Bank means lower rates again, it seems kind of paradox for me ^^

Cheers!

About 7k shares :D I can contact you via irc before my next investment if that helps :)

Where did all the buy orders go!?

I hope that does not lead to asymmetrical information.

I think vuce is asking where is Goat's 0.100 orders like he would buy them back in the OP.  With the migration to 2.0, whenever someone tries to make a buy order part of their BTC funds will be reserved.  So if Goat allows someone to purchase back shares at 0.100 all the time, he has to keep that amount of BTC in reserve.  Thus, the BTC he is borrowing would not be able to be used from.

I had a few hundred orders for 0.1 but canceled the order as I wanted to use the funds for something else.  I wish there was a way to put in multiple orders and then GLBSE would cancel them when the funds available fell below a certain amount.  The volume on GLBSE 2.0 is lower than 1.0 because of this.  There were a lot of phantom orders but I think the measures now are too drastic.

ah yes, haven't thought of that. Makes sense.

What are we voting on? It says I should check the forums, but I'm not finding anything specific. Help?

I don't think there is a notification system for motions, so I'm not sure that is more effective than updating the OP and adding and update to the end of the thread.  That said, I notice that GLBSE 2.0 has a mail system.  Can you send a message to all shareholders through that?  I don't know if it would be more effective (I don't know if there is notification or visual indication of new messages), but it would be the most logical place to communicate with shareholders (outside of this thread).

People can see all open motions they can vote on by clicking the motions link at the top of glbse.

I am assuming this response was directed at me.  I understand this, and it is certainly how Mushoz saw the fake motion.  My point was that faking a motion probably didn't add much notification value, as users are probably more likely to check the forum thread for updates than they are to check for motions (especially since the forum threads should indicate when there are motions).

Good point, I'll add a motions notification tag, in the same way that mail works.

I found this interesting.

That will be convenient for real notifications in case a forum thread update notification doesn't go out (or gets accidentally deleted).  I wonder how many more people will post in this thread asking what Goat's fake motion is for after you do that.  Is it possible/easy to mail all shareholders for next time Goat wants to post a interest raet change?  Also, is it possible that mail without subjects can't be viewed easily because there is no link to click on other than the subject?  (Just asking based on Goat's earlier response to my earlier post).

Fixed, actually the mail system needs a good bit of work, I'll add that to my growing list of things to do.

Are these dividends going to be paid out this week?  Is there a time when your account will be verified?

When do you think this will be resolved?

Aren't you supposed to get verified with the GLBSE.  Why not just do it and get it done with.  Honestly this is making you look bad, almost like you are trying to hide something.  Not saying that you are but it could easily be viewed like this.

Just a few days ago it peaked up to 0.14.  Now look...

.1 isn't drastically low.  It's still face value of the bond.  Anyone paying that obviously feels that there is very little risk here...  Paying .103 now would say "I am willing to wait a week for my 2.5% interest to start" and paying .104 is just silly regardless.  After the current payment (assuming it will ultimately be made), paying more than .1025 is just silly.

Seriously, just do it and get it done.  I seem to recall you uploaded a pic of your passport along with a bunch of pictures of the TyGrr rigs as a sort of verification.  Just send the damn pic to Nefario and stop having a hissy fit for no reason.

I really do understand your concerns for privacy, I just didn't think it would be that big of deal to share the passport/ID since you had done that before.

I'm sure that you and him will be able to work out a level of verification that respects your privacy and allows him to do at least some verification.

That's not true, he explained in the other thread that these were options and that he would accept passport as a minimum:


That's from this post, where nefario also explains why he locked the account: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=75047.msg832920#msg832920. I think his actions are reasonable (except not freezing trading) and I hope you will also be reasonable.

EDIT: 2-factor auth is implementend for withdraw/transfer/pw-change, so I guess it's now up to you, goat.

No. He locked it because of numerous failed attempted to log into your account. Was it you? Or was someone else trying to hack your account? If the latter, then it was probably a good step for nefario to take to protect (y)our funds.

Hello Chaang Noi,

the time has come to finally withdraw my money from TyGrr-Bank.

Since my Sell Order for 2,400 Shares for 0.1 BTC each was not fullfilled over a couple of days now and your GLBSE account seems to be locked.

Please transfer my funds of 240 BTC to: 1KuGkqNBJxeDcygdiHoRtnrzt17odpa39m

After i received this amount, i'll send you back those 2,400 shares via GLBSE (indeed a very cool feature).

Here is a proof of my shares: http://s14.directupload.net/file/d/2850/6yvuzwow_png.htm

Well, if it's really necessary, my identity and stocks will be verified by Nefario. But since i trusted you a lot, in lending you money, this should not be an issue.

Remember our agreements from the start:

Thanks for your support and best regards,

roomservice

Alright, thanks for your quick feedback. In this case the market should cool down as well and stop selling shares below 0.1 btc on GLBSE.

The market is the market. 0.1 BTC today is worth more than 0.1 BTC tomorrow, or whenever it is if Goat and Nefario sort out their difference and goat resumes interest payments. Those not wanting to wait should expect to accept a haircut.

I guess this qualifies as extreme situation : )

In my opinion this is very bad for Goat.  He has left his shareholders down.  People are right for bailing on their shares.  He can't fulfill a simple request to verify himself.  I guess he must be hiding something. 

Im going to put a time limit of a week on this, after a week if goat has not verified then I will close down all the shares and return what is left in his account (as he mentioned, about 1K BTC) to his shareholders. I will also approach him to repay the difference between what is in his account and what he owes shareholders.

Nefario.

I think this is a really bad option Nefario, Goat has proven himself in the past and had has ID up before, give him some more time to respond to the ID request before taking any action.
//DeaDTerra

If it takes someone more then a week to scan their id and email it, then we have some serious problems. 

He already showed is ID before creating TyGrr, what he's worried about know as I understand it is the legality of GLBSE and that he could get sued or jailed do to his activities on GLBSE.  To shutdown all the shares after only one week seems like a bit radical solution. Just my opinion but I am a bit bias as I am a major shareholder almost all the TyGrr companies :8
//DeaDTerra

I hadn't gotten around to mentioning this in the locked thread, but it is relevant now based on the posted action.  This quote from the GLBSE 2.0 thread:and the full text from GLBSE 2.0:This doesn't look like it was written by someone who speaks any form of English as their primary language, and it lacks important grammar and punctuation.  However, my understanding of it was that it meant something like this:You really need to edit this before you even consider taking any action like the one mentioned earlier in this thread (and quoted first in this post), and even then, considering the system was still worded like this well after Goat's account was locked, you need to be very cautious about any decision regarding his account.

Don't get me wrong, your resolution seems reasonable if he stops communicating completely or tells you to implement it as he will be abandoning GLBSE (in which case I would assume that he would certainly pay, but don't see how TyGrr [which actually has non-BTC assets involved] could be properly and fairly handled [whereas TyGrr-Bank and TyGrr-BOT are just bonds and as such should be possible to pay off at face value]).

Since his public announcement goat has not contacted me.

What to do if he sits there with his arms crossed?

Goat didn't care about the legality of using GLBSE when he started, so if any law has been broken it has already been so for months.

But seriously, what would you advise me to do if he doesn't comply or communicate the issue?

I'm open to suggestions.

The last email I got from you was two days ago in which you informed me of how shocked you were of the lax security of GLBSE2.0

Since then you've decided to hold this entire thing in public.


Since December last year I have been warning GLBSE users and asset issuers that ID verification will be introduced for asset issuers, on a voluntary basis.

From our terms, that have included this for nearly a month.

Who is stealing?

That bitcoin belongs to your shareholders. And if you don't comply that is where it will be returned to.

So Nefario, you are violating the terms of your own site?  You haven't stopped the trading in any of the TyGrr assets.

Further, you can't really say it's voluntary - as your terms say, you can demand whatever until you are "sufficiently satisfied" - you can demand pictures of his dog if you want!  If verification is truly voluntary, you should unlock his account right now since he doesn't want to send you his personal information.  If it's not voluntary, stop pretending that it is and just state in your terms that asset creators must be verified.  If thats the case, you should lock all the non-verified asset creation accounts immediately.  Otherwise this is nothing more than an obvious crusade against Goat because he hurt your feelings.

This whole thing is ridiculous.  You are two grown men, and you'd think you'd be able to figure out some sort of compromise.  Meanwhile the investors in various TyGrr products sit here and watch our money circle the drain.  

Goat, I think you should just show your id to Nefario.
You are causing too big a deal over nothing.
If your BTC gets distributed to us, then its a bad deal as we only get 0.02 per share, and you lose your bitcoins. Its a lose-lose situation.

I see no violation of the terms. And can hardly believe Goat is still not complying. If I was a shareholder, my trust in him would be low now too.

It clearly states "We may at our discretion, ask asset creators to provide proof of identity, address, phone number and more, until we are sufficiently satisfied. Said information will be held securely offline and not shared with any third party. We reserve the right to freeze trading of the asset and the asset creators account for failure to provide requested details or in the event of suspected fraud."

He hasn’t failed yet or been suspected to be a fraudster by Nefario, has he?

So what exactly is the problem? ???

Where is "Bitcoin Global" registered?


Not in Ireland - http://www.cro.ie/search/CompanySearch.aspx

Because the term were changed less than a month and most likely weren't communicated to customers. He can change terms tomorrow at his will.

"These terms and conditions are subject to change without notice."

You have agreed to that too.

The ones defending Goat and his immaturity will all be scammed... And I won't feel sorry for them.

Are you sure. Did you check the sign up process, did at any point of time did you agree to the terms? The link on the bottom isn't a valid agreement.

The guy has taken thousands of BTC of investors money, there were recent attempts to break into his account, he is the largest asset issuer on GLBSE. Is it so unreasonable to ask for proof of ID?

I question legality of GLBSE. In which country did you register the company. Do you understand that when you deal with IPO (at least in USA), you need to have all kinds of approvals, licenses and etc?

From Nefario, there is recent attempts to break into his account. That would be partially regarded as suspicious IMHO.For what I know, the actual Goat might be sleeping while the hacker are using his account.  ;D I don't see why Nefario has a motive to cheat here; it's not like he gets all the proceeds from Goat's account. He is even ruining his own business as Goat is the biggest asset issuer on GLBSE. Think of the fees he'll lose if everyone's apprehensive to trade Goat's stocks.

Goat, just verify and get over with it. This is starting to sound bad for everyone.

I question your unconditional support of Goat's shady actions...
Happened before, it's happening now again.

No. It's also not reasonable to threaten to close all the assets (after fairly quickly freezing them) when Goat's already said he's not liable for you creating terms of service out of thin air, then denying service for not complying with those made-up terms. You'd effectively ensure his assets "default." Already, prices of his assets have been plummeting over this, which personally affects me.

This is a silly argument and the stakes are too high. What's more ridiculous is that Goat's already provided gov't ID to investors (honestly, I'm surprised nobody's just submitted them to Nefario behind Goat's back, yet). Neither Goat's nor Nefario's arguments are reasonable given the stakes, and the whole thing's meaningless. Both Nefario and Goat are set in their ways, and the lines have been drawn. Nobody's going to change -- you've both dug in. Either GLBSE or Goat-related assets will lose credibility, and most likely, both will, quite significantly. In either case, they both negatively affect each other, which negatively affects me -- this's gone on long enough.


Goat: Please just upload your gov't ID. IIRC, you do not need to provide anything beyond that. You've provided it to others without this drama. Granted, they didn't freeze your accounts anywhere and create a lot of FUD through that action, but it's detrimental to allow it to continue. I swear to the King of All Fuck I will stop investing in your projects if you don't submit ID to Nefario within a timely manner.

Nefario: Please don't allow these situations to happen in the future. State in the terms you demand ID prior to asset creation, and demand it from all current asset-creators, not just when the asset's become large in your mind and you suddenly have a whim to collect ID on the asset-creator. I swear to the King of All Fuck I will stop investing in assets listed on your site if you don't unfreeze Goat's assets within a timely manner.

+1. Just let this fiasco end.

"Shady" is reserved name by Shakaru, have to come up with something else :-)

I simply get annoyed when people use words like TERMS, LAWYERS, and LAWS without have a clue about them. Remember our first altercation.


Disclaimer: I don't any money with Goat. I've dealt with him once awhile ago.

Agreed.

+2

Hard to argue with, I won't close the account or assets.

You have done what you can to ensure that the shareholders are safe and the Goat is the person he claims to be. Now it's the shareholders fault if it turns out he's a scammer or is someone else then he claims to be xD But hopefully things will go back to the way they were a couple of days ago without all of this drama :P
//DeaDTerra

Seen, witnessed, and +1-ed.

We're working something out, hopefully should be sorted out by tomorrow.

Thank you very much Nefario, I am happy to see that both of you have managed to work things out :)
//DeaDTerra

The plan is for me to hold Goat's ID in "escrow." I provided Nefario with my own ID and intend to verify Goat's ID, then update Nefario. However, it's a bit past Goat's normal sleep-time, so until that time, I'll be increasing my stake in his assets while confidence is low.


The information's now public, so it isn't insider trading.... right? :P

What? It's the implicit "mediation fee" I charge.


... In other news, the price of TyGrr-Bank just recovered.  ;D

Does this mean you'll pay back all TyGrr* investors if something goes wrong ?

Kluge, the fail isn't on you but on Goat's side ;)
Or am I the only one to find the whole "I will show it to Kluge but not to Nefario" extremely childish?

       ^^ This. Not that I should care much, because if he ends up scamming someone it won't be me

I think it just means he'll (we'll, I guess) dox him if something goes horribly wrong. IIRC, there's a fairly large fellow near Thailand who's well-in with Goat who'd be able to sit on him.

Ya.

I am truly surprised that this is still dragging on.

Thanks for being the responsible mediator in all of this.

I lost faith in Goat after this very public display of immaturity.

On that note, I too will now say that I claim no responsibility for anything I am responsible for.

Good luck with your endeavors Goat. I do wish you the best but I will not be investing any further

I'm pretty sure he did that to help prevent brute force cracking, and I'm fairly certain that's in context.

Full Quote:

Maybe I'm interpreting this wrong but, to me this is you saying; "I tied almost everything I have riding on this to a free email address I have used for years and more than likely a lot of people know. I wouldn't dream of putting the security of other peoples money at risk like this, but my hand was forced to not take 5 minutes and create a new email address that I don't hand out. I take no responsibility for my actions."

Not trolling, you could do should Goat...

That bolded part is intriguing me... especially the "outside of GLBSE" bit!

I bet many people have lost trust in you now, goat :(
Not me though, I'm just taking advantage of all the panic sellers :D
Will you be paying the tygrr-bank and all other tygrr dividends that you missed when you have your account back?
How's the bot going, now? Might buy a few shares.

I've looked over the documents and told Nefario they check out. I did a bit of extra snooping before locking the images away, and everything matches up with outside information. There are a couple minor issues still pending, but everything should be good quite soon.

Account unlocked.

let the fun begin.

Great :D I am happy you guys managed to solve this :)
//DeaDTerra

And the captcha is gone now too?

I think after failed login attempts.

BTW, any estimation when dividends will be paid out?

Paid: 9.30102441
Owed (incl. paid): 11.601
Remaining: 2.3 / 3867 (shares I owned @ time of dividend payment) = 5.9478e-4 owed per share, or 0.0059478BTC extra owed per BTC invested @ face value.


Or... to make that more useful for you... 5.5947e-4*16810 (shares which received dividend payment at time dividends were last paid) = ~10BTC remaining dividends owed for the week. (I think. Verify it yourself, first!)

Will do it another way before going to sleep.


ETA: 16810 (total shares) / 3867 (my shares) = 4.347826 (# times my shares must be multiplied to equal total shares). 4.347826(times my shares must be multiplied to equal total)*2.3(amount I'm still owed)=10 (total amount still due).


Woohoo! I can math! Good night.

I have not created any assets, but doesn't GLBSE tell you how many bonds have been sold, not including the ones you have not released yet?  If so that needs to be an option.

You paid a total of 40.4319163 to 16810 bonds. or 0.00240523 per bond.  You need 0.00059477 per bond more.  So for 16810 bonds you should release an additional 9.998084 BTC to those 16810 bonds.  Whatever part of the 16810 bonds that you own in your 4 accounts would just receive the dividend too which you could just transfer to your personal account.

@Goat.. you can use the internal glbse transfer system for btc transfers between accounts too.. just fyi.

with each asset created there is a sub-account created to manage that asset.
that means you should see an account labeled BTC - this is your main user account
and accounts labeled as your assets. those are asset management accounts.

every account has a btc balance and potfolio (can trade shares, receive dividends and so on)
when you issue new shares, they appear in the asset management account and from there you can sell/transfer them etc.
and only shares outside the asset management account are entitled for dividends & can vote.
thus if you issued 1500 shares for tygrr mining and own part of it, make sure it is in your personal account.
switching between accounts is done in the portfolio page, by clicking on the account name ...

Goat, will you be putting up buy orders at 0.1 again?

My shares were bought back by Goat. Thanks a lot, dude!

Will invest again, as soon as i'am liquid on btc anytime soon.

will be interesting to watch https://glbse.com/asset/view/TYGRR-BANK for weekly dividend payments
that shows now also number of shares that got them, providing an easy to follow indicator of shares in circulation.
if he was lucky enough to get a place in Pirate's fund and gets higher interest that he pays to glbse members, that's his business. his extra costs are btc held in glbse for open buy order at face value (that will not bring revenue at Pirate's)
I'm curious how many of the 16k bank bonds have been bought back by him this week

Extra dividend payment for Tygrr-Bank shareholders (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=75595.msg837377#msg837377)

rofl. no shares have been bought back by goat. they all remain in circulation.
whoever bought back roomservice's position it was not the issuer's account
at least technically no bond was sold back to issuer and whoever the mystery buyer was today, it's not the asset-manager account. simply looking at the number of shares that got the dividends.

if it is an unintended mismanagement and the bonds are in your private account, you'll be paying to yourself every time you pay dividends, unless you transfer them to tygrr-bank account. only that way they won't count in future.

I PM'D Goat this afternoon asking him that I should have still received my dividends even though I sold my bonds before they were paid.  I ended up selling 926 bonds on Tuesday and Wednesday this week before the whole Goat and Nefario drama happenned. 

His first repsond through email on the GLBSE was
Nefario is the only one with the technical skills to wort this out. I'm all about free market and he is about regulation. He is your man!

So I emailed Nefario and he said that Goat is responsible for this.   

I PM'd Goat and told him what Nefario said, Goat responds with
okay, make a discussion thread about this if you want me to respond. i hope you are not just trolling :/

I toldl Goat that it would be easier just to handle this through pm.

His response is:

you are saying I scammed you right? You need to take this to the trading discussion sub-forum so you can be educated how bonds work. :/
I do not have time for this right now, Sorry.

I never said that he scammed me.  All I did was ask for money that was owed to me and how do we resolve this.

According to his offering
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67818.0

In my opinion he sold bonds not knowing how the GLBSE would handle trading on them and promised a .1 BTC per bond buyback.

I bought 926 bonds at 99.90 and sold 926 bonds at 77.252.  I didn't received Goats promised .1 BTC per bond like promised in his post. 
So currently he owes me 15.34 BTC for the price difference in bonds and 2.778 for the dividends.



Maybe this should get delisted.

I think GLBSE and goat has stated that you have to actually hold the bond for the payment to be received.  I think this is one of those special circumstances that just lost you money.  I also had bonds during the crisis and was not paid, but they were bought from me before the dividends were paid.  Luckily I purchased mine under what I sold them for.

I think the TyGrr-Bank contract should be updated whenever GLBSE allows this to occur.  This would make the day that payments would be sent out, the percentage of the dividend, and any procedures for late payments.

His offering does not state that. It states that bomds will be purchased back at .1 bitcoins.

Ouch, that is rough and you sold them for ~0.08342 BTC each.

I would be interested in knowing who purchased up all the low asks an hour before dividends were paid.  Seems a little too convenient to me.

It does. He also states that you have to contact him for the bonds to be purchased back at .1 bitcoins in the thread. You sold the bonds to others at a lower price, hence it is illogical to presume anyone except him would hold to the promise that the bonds would be purchased at .1 bitcoins. Did he refuse to repurchase the bonds at the .1 btc?

Then why won't you reimburse me for my shares and pay me my dividend.  If you buried your rules in different spots of your thread thats your fault.

I understand your pain but how can you prove you even owned those shares?  Also, you had plenty of opportunity to read the whole thread.  I know I did.

After a bit of thought, I've decided I will cover this. 18.118 is due. 1.38 was just transferred. The remaining 16.738BTC will be covered tomorrow morning.


Cheers,

Ben

ETA: Rest of the payment sent ~10:40AM US Eastern, 4/6

ETA2: HK, around 10:40PM US Eastern, 4/6, insisted on returning the coins to me. I'm not sure how I feel, but I accepted his offer and very much appreciate it. Cheers!

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.  I hope for Kluge not everyone asks for their dividends they did not receive.

me does not ask for dividens which i did not received ;)
i sold all my tygrr-banks for new tygrr-bot ones.

but i am fine... i dont think we should blame goat for nefarios fault.

It's a free market, and it's hashking's fault that hasking sold the bonds for less than face value.  No one else has any fault here unless you're implying that dividends should be paid to shareholders as of record (so to who held the bonds on Tuesday at a given time, the normal day for payments).  However, GLBSE has never claimed to offer such a feature, so blaming Nefario for not offering a feature he never seemed to offer doesn't make sense.  Lots of people will be out lots of money if bitcoin fails, and this wil be their fault for investing in bitcoin, not Satoshi's for inventing it.

ETA (as cross-posted to hashking's thread):  Also, for the record, a bid wall to pay back the bonds defeats the purpose of a bond, borrowing the face value.  For instance, why would someone borrow $100 from you if I had to leave it where you could get to it?  (Hint: They wouldn't, they borrow it to spend it.)  Moreover, the contract said Goat wil buy back the bonds at any time, everyone is inferring that this means he will buy them back whenever they want him to, and this may have been implied elsewhere, but the way it was worded in the original contract (again, for a loan), would only imply that the bonds don't expire, not that you get to collect face value on a whim.  In fact, I believe this was discussed early in the TyGrr-Bank thread (something about when Goat decides to buyback, he will put the money back in GLBSE, puts up a bid wall for all open shares, and ceases to pay interest).  IOW, ANY suggestion that Hashking had ANY right to more than what he CHOSE to sell the bonds for is ridiculous, and the fact that Goat is buying back bonds on request is him going above and beyond to make those requestors happy.

jesus christ! At the time everyone was in a panic and some people thought to themselves: better sell them for 0.08 than be sorry and sell for 0.0. Their decision.

The market continued trading and if someone sold, he sold.
Dividends were payed late due to "technical difficulties", it was to be expected they would be payed if situation was resolved.

I sold 500 in panic myself at 0.0999 or something and bought back for an average price of roughly 0.011. I missed the dividend payment: so what, it's my own fault.

The people that bought shares for 0.05 to 0.09999 were taking very high perceived risk at the time and are now rewarded. They might've just as well lost everything and the seller would've made a good deal.

hindsight is 50/50, you can't complain now because things didn't go the way you feared they would go.

The people involved with class warfare arguments fall into two groups.  The ones who don't get it (and/or want something for nothing), and the ones who have much to gain by fleecing the dumb (and/or playing robin hood for those who want something for nothing). It saddens me that there are alredy people involved with bitcoin who believe they are entitled to bitcoin welfare and bitcoin bailouts.

yes! let's be responsible for the ignorance of others!
I sold after dividend 1 (goat's coupon) but before dividend 2 (glbse sorry payment), where shall I apply for the lost money?
 </sarcasm>

you chicken you

Suggestion:  add a note to the OP (and perhaps on GLBSE) that dividends are owed to and paid to only the holders of record at the time dividends are paid.

People used to "regular" stock markets might be expecting there to be the usual ex-dividend, record, and payment dates.

not 100 %
and I did not buy @.103  ; )

the main developer is aware of that and afaik it's in his to do list
but thanks for insight to 'regular' markets

Are the funds of your different assets are mixed together?  Or do some of your assets have ownership stakes in other ones?  Seems like there is some mixing going on... :-/

Thanks for the shares by the way..  ;) Just hate I didn't get any at .05..

Me too. I missed them by a few inches. I removed a couple of orders around 0.07 and bought @0.089 just before the big dump... Anyway, was a great deal...

this was not implied. it's just an explanation how assets are managed in 2.0
and there might be issues from the claim process from 1.0 to 2.0
i did not test this particular part as i did not have any asset created in 1.0 and the claim worked anyway only in prod

i wrote that to clarify where to look for shares (check each account portfolio) and make sure that shares not issued are in fact in asset manager account and vice versa, if user (person) should have any shares in his private account and they were for any reason imported in the asset manager sub-account that they should be transferred to the personal account.

not sure if that was obvious from the previous post of mine. this is afaik a newish concept and a little detail worth checking and paying attention to

for the record it is possible and desired that a sub account has it's own portfolio, p.ex. if it is a 'fund' and it's aim is to own shares in other companies and also needs to collect dividends or coupons from them and needs them in the asset bitcoin account.
i'm mixing user 101 with asset manager 101 but hope you get the idea

edit: even at 1% weekly this would be a good thing to own. better than bitcoins sitting in the wallet : )

It sounds like he has used funds from one asset to pay dividends on another. 

Now, I think Goat is pretty trustworthy, and don't think he is deliberately misleading investors or trying to make a ponzi scheme. But mixing funds from multiple sources (that are separate) creates the slippery slope that can turn innocent accounting mistakes into the need to either use fraudulent accounting measures or fold.  I don't want to see that happen, so I hope Goat gets his books in order before it comes to that. 

If he has a portfolio for one asset that contains the other, he needs to be managing dividend payments between assets just like dividends to investors.  Mixing funds creates a serious moral hazard.

It can be also true that he holds btc balance in his personal account, that is the root account of all assets he created. Or where he sent funds to cover dividends and only then realized that dividends must be (can only be) paid from the sub-account of the asset manager and need to be either deposited there or sent there from any other account that has positive balance.
As long as his books keep the right info, it's not really my concern. 2.0 glbse started less then a month ago (2 and half weeks to be precise?) and we're still learning. I have no idea how to advise asset managers on proper accounting and is most probably none of my business. All I want to accomplish is to document the features and move forward with the user guides for both users and managers to smooth the experience (and learn my share).

for the mining it's pretty straightforward, he sends in the share of mining income.
for the bank it's probably the pirate's coupon share
for the bot, no idea
disclaimer ^^ wild guesswork

btw generous exchange rate for bitcoins to pay for the electricity. did anyone else noticed the 5$ in the formula?

I see the payment went out today. Just a note, has the number of shares / bonds gone down? I see that 14093 were paid out, when previously 16810 were paid out.

Phil

that's correct observation. goat must have regained some shares, there's no other explanation

Personally, I think you should detail your plans with staying or leaving GLBSE like you stated you would in other threads.  A guarantee that you would continue to issue bonds for TyGrr-Bank on GLBSE for the next 6 months is more important to me than if you change it to 4% and then decide to move away from using GLBSE.

For your primary topic, what kind of risk are you talking about?  What is the probability of an loan on the Pirate bank defaulted.  What do people that borrow money from Pirate do with the money?  If it is as risky as lending money to you then I see no problem with raising it.

I'd prefer not. I have someone be a middleman for me on Pirate accounts (without insurance) @ 28%/month (very possibly increasing to 30% soon). For insured deposits, 15%/month. You'd be paying ~17-18% factoring in compound interest without insuring the coins.

U NO split bonds?

2.5 you vs public at tygrr-bank
4.0 you vs public at other-asset

i mean i love the fact that you cover the eventual loss now and the higher interest won't convince me, no matter otc rating of pirate
and as i wrote even 1% weekly relatively risk free is better than high risk lending venture

I am worried about the build up of systemic risk. If BS&T (pirate) goes down, it would now take a large portion of the bitcoin community with it. It is unclear how big this is, but I think the effect would be significant!

For disclosure, I have coins with pirate. I want my other investments to offer diversification. If I wanted to increase my exposure with pirate I would, but I like to manage my risk, and hence would not invest in other sub-lending offers of pirate without a guarantee.

What would happen with all the GLBSE shares when you decide to leave it? Will you buy them all back at 0.1?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67818.msg817292#msg817292

Thanks.

I don't worry about the payback I worry about the uncertainty.  As you can see in the TyGrr-Bank graph during last weeks thing, people got nervous from the uncertainty.

But right now the buyback would be .1025 instead of .103, right?  I know this, but people following that link without context could be confuse and upset later on...

I think anyone investing in TyGrr-Bank should read every post in this tread before making an investment decision.

But you should know people are stupid and clearly don't do that, and you provided an answer to a question that was posted (the posting of a question that has already been answered implies the thread wasn't read) without providing context or warning that they need to read the whole thread to understand that post completely.  So your behavior only serves to get at least one more person pissed off at goat down the road for no good reason.  If you invest with him, you shouldn't want that, and shold have made your point (RTFT) without risking additional damage of public trust to your investments (something like "that has already been answered, read the thread" would have sufficed and I wouldn't have responded to it), if you don't, then my post is still exactly what Goat's should have been after a misleading post by a non-investor.

If you want to offer a higher unsecured rate that is a direct passthrough to Pirate, then you should create another asset. I'm fairly certain there there would be a lot of interest for those people that don't have a better line for investing with that type of account. You should leave this current asset the way it is now: secured by Goat.

FPS&T -- too big to fail  :D

Sorry - couldn't resist...

Goat, have you put in an order to purchase 12k+ shares at .104?

Phil

Is there any particular reason this is trading so high at the moment? Am I missing something?

Okay. Just wondering whether rates had increased or something.

How'd we suddenly jump to 50k shares issued? 

And can the Vol฿ be so high?  It looks like many times the issued shares are trading hands.  What time period does Vol฿ cover?

Volume is since IPO I believe...

It seems to cycle like this every week.  At the beginning of the week the buy in price is really high and people take their 2.5% payment.  Then the buy in price drops to about 0.1025 for a few days then goes down to 0.1.  Then the price shoots up before dividend payment and the cycle starts anew.

If you priced them higher, it wouldn't have been borrowing money anymore unless half of the borrowed amount on each bond was 0% and there was a guaranteed timeframe before payoff was an option (to pay off cthe 0% half), and then you'd still be effectively offering a lower interest rate, so I think the problem is you offered too much interest, not priced them wrong (other than the agument at the beginning that you may have reversed the sell and payoff amounts around during the IPO).

The same way the contract says "test" (it was always that way before this was a bond).  I am pretty certain this was mentioned very early in the thread.  That said, to answer the question you meant to ask (which was likely already answered as well), just because there are 50K issues doesn't mean they were all sold, you can see from the dividend payouts how many are currently in circulation.

It is interesting that the price is now moving higher still (currently 0.106). I guess the long term prospect of the dividend is worth it? Selling at a premium of 2.5 dividend payments.

Phil

For a perpetual it would be worth it, but with Goat having the option to call this in at short notice (1 or 2 weeks from memory), they are taking on a bit of redemption risk.

hmm.. don't leave us hanging, what's going on now? :P

Goat, for the good of your business reputation, I'd advise you to get over your spat with Nefario and stop bringing it up in public all the time. It doesn't portray a good image. Regardless of who is at fault, it is better to resolve your differences through private means.

The business reputation of the guy whose post here I had to report because it revealed the password of his email account connected to his GLBSE account associated with 3 assets? Just check this potential disaster out: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=75047.msg831580#msg831580

Ah, that reputation.

I guess it's because the fact that the contract on GLBSE states "tests" and the security has the word bank in its name - so it's a bit misleading as you can understand it as investing in institution instead of depositing money.

I understand it as fools and their money are easily parted.

In other news, anyone want to lend me some TyGrr-Bank bonds? I'll pay an extra 10% of any dividends paid during the lending period.

First- Respect is earned, no given. Neither one of you have earned either's respect IMO. Stop demanding that someone respect you.

Second- It is up to your investors to decide on the contract now. You opened your asset to be publicly traded, owned by you and your asset holders. If you didn't want that you should have kept it off the GLBSE.

Third- Both of you, quit the bickering and deal with this spat like a couple of adults. Please do it in private as well, these threads are getting ridiculous.

Interested why you would like to borrow the bonds? Is it for agreeing the new contract?

Phil

What strange world do you live in where you can change the terms of a bond after lending someone the money?  That is in effect what you are suggesting is.  If that were true, we would be a ring of loan sharks.  Are you also going to suggest that a majority of shareholders can control what an ETF does?  Don't forget this contract was set up on the old system where a lot less options were available (so if it were set up after the new system went live to be a bond, it obviously wouldn't have given out voting rights anyway).  This story combined with the fact that you might actually believe what you are posting (and the fact that you aren't the only one) makes me want to run away from GLBSE and not even consider the new PPT series of bonds available.

To get respect you must give respect.


The contract is determined before the sale of a contract.  If someone buys a contract that says test and does not go searching what this TyGrr-Bank asset is other than reading 'test' should really not be in the business of buying unregulated and pseudoanonymous assets.  Goat has stated he will give 1 week notice of changing the bond's interest rate and wrote exactly how a dissolution of the bonds would take place.


Agree with this.  There also needs to be a contract between GLBSE and the asset holder which can't be changed at the whim of GLBSE.

You mean sort-of like MPEx (http://polimedia.us/bitcoin/mpex.php?mpsic=S.BVPS) does it? Yeah.

Actually, even without any drama, I think the price will go down. Selling at current prices gives me a good few weeks for that to happen before I will lose money on it. The way I see it, I am better on being able to buy for 0.1025 again within the next four or so weeks. Someone loaning me the bonds thinks the price will stay high longer than that and can earn an extra 15% by loaning me the bonds.

For reference, I have already borrowed bonds for a different asset from znort. That  one was lower risk for me because I was able to hedge. We could both win out of that deal.

Goat, I think you are too quick to read ill intent into what Nefario writes. He never said the forum would decide. The problem is, the original contract was on bitcointalk rather than GLBSE. Nefario is not wanting forum members decide the terms of the contract. There already is a contract based on what you have already promised over 13 pages of this thread. Nefario wants that to be formalised in one place.

You are right. It would have been a message better delivered by PM. I'm sorry.

If you look through the too many pages in this thread you will see TYGRR-BANK was once just listed as a test asset on GLBSE before the 8 BTC fee was imposed.  I too would like a beter contract.  If anyone has a problem with the contract changing within a 4 week period then purchase some insurance, or if you think the contract will change or not pay its bond payment then short TYGRR-BANK (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=82891.0).

I will buy them back at .1, just like what I sold them at.

Thank you.
[/quote]

My 271 bonds are now on sale at 0.100 on GLBSE

what the?!? people sold for 0.08? why not wait for goat to buy back?

because i did not want to read a hole thread just for 15 shares?

ok, I can understand that.

Am just pissed I wasn't the buyer ;) Ah, those were the times when one could place as many bids as one liked on GLBSE without actually having the funds for having them all filled ;)

I cannot find a Tygrr-Bank ticker?

Tickers have changed names, see here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=82569.0

https://glbse.com/asset/view/TYGRR.BOND-B
or like this ^^

Hmm... it does not seem to have as consistent, cut-and-dry dividends as the post makes it sound, but I'll try a few shares

goat, can you change thread topic(s) to match glbse name?

Shouldn't the title be TYGRR.BOND-B and not TYGRR.BOND-A?

when you have some time, can you check the order book? If my sell order @0.1 is still there, please buy it back.

I see a lot of people putting up shares for 0.099 or 0.1, why are people getting out? 2% is good, and not reliant on Pirate.

Phil

Goat can buy back the bonds at any time for 0.1. So don't expect the price will go much higher than 0.1, it rather stays below 0.1. The other thing is that Goat is exposed to pirate as well and nobody (except for him) knows how much and what will pirate's default do to his solvency  :D

if you expect to profit from a "bond" with varying dividend payouts by buying low and selling high, you're doing it wrong ;)

PING Goat:
TYGRR.TECH got a dividend payment today, TYGRR.BOND-B didn't.  Oops?

i did not receive any dividend payment too: TYGRR.BOND-P

this was my last payment: 0.272    TYGRR.BOND-P    2012-06-05 10:05:58

edit: sorry wrong bond ;)
but i guess there will be a payment soon

TYGRR.BOND-P has not been paid yet.
This thread is about TYGRR.BOND-B - which has already been paid today. At least to me.. :)

Confirmed, got the dividend, not sure what the hold-up was (I refreshed GLBSE before posting and it wasn't showing).  Enjoy your vacation.

This week I only recieved 1.39%, this is NOT what you promised us  >:(

Going to sell Goat`s crap.

Got it thanks Goat.

He's right - unless its only a part of this week's divs and the rest is coming....

Pay up, man! :)

Got it - cheers! :)

Don't panic people  ;D

I didn't panic - just confirmed the calculation :)
You must admit that it was a bit unusual that the divs came in 2 parts this time.

Just be careful in the future, to not make a math error in the opposite direction - it may be technically impossible for us to behave as honestly, as you just did.

Sounds like fun. :)

Looks like you still owe 0.00000001 per share (0.00139024+0.00060975=0.00199999). In case my math is correct. But nevermind  8)

viewing

...you mean 0.102 and 0.1BTC, right? Otherwise I want to BUY BUY BUY!

Thanks for a nice and steady service.

You mean .3%, right?

lol. you're probably right. 0.3% still adds up to 16.8% p.a. which some would consider to be a decent return in the "real world".

Hello there,

Are there still any plans on offering 1% weekly bonds? Thanks for the info!

Are you still buying these at .102? I haven't been paying much attention lately, did I miss out?

I have 13612 11774 8774 shares of TYGRR.BOND-B, and given that the contract has been changed to lower the interest rate to 0.3%, please buy them back from me ASAP and PM me as a heads up. I have a sell order out at .1 0.0999999 per share.

Thanks mate!
-cyto

Can you refresh the bidwall, please? I'd like to get out today if possible :)
Thank you very much in advance!

Same here, I have 2211 shares remaining out there @ 0.0999999

Thanks again for buying these back so quickly!

Yeah, if they can be bought back today that would be great. Would love to put up a few bid walls in a few hours for an interesting IPO tomorrow.
Thanks again :)

Why not buy into the asks up to and including 0.1? That's where my shares are located, among others.

Edit: Probably because of the fees. Hmmm, so we are actually forcing the price down without you being able to do anything about it. Oh well, it's only 3 Satoshis less per share though, so no big deal :)

Thank you, pleasure doing business :)

This has not been updated in a while, and the opening post is so edited it is confusing. Is the bond still valid or was it closed out?

Are you allowed to just change the interest rate like that?

I already sold my shares a few weeks ago, but I am curious. Doesn't GLBSE have a function to force a buyback now? Seems like there should be a better way to communicate with shareholders than putting up a message at the end of a long forum thread.

So this is ending with a proper closure? So it was not a Ponzi? How is that even possible? I thought it's not?  ???

Then when are you gonna disclose your business model.  :)

If there is a liquidity crunch, doesnt that mean it would be better to have the bitcoins in hand?

Since there is a liquidity crunch, some people are selling off assets at a reduced price. If you had some bitcoins lying around you could pick up some great deals right now.