Bitcoin Forum

So I see this great thread today for Live Pura (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=715366.0) and it gets me thinking again about something that I've been deliberating for some time.  I visit the site, add items to my cart...then have the recurring realization that spending BTC (https://coinbase.com/charts) for groceries online, is the equivalent of paying the clerk at my local Publix or Costco with Class-A shares of Google stock! (https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=goog)

Tell me again why it makes sense to risk unlimited upside long-term potential, for the purchase of short-term consumables?  I know this has been a running discussion for several years now...I've studied countless topic threads and online research on the issue, but have yet to hear enough of a well-reasoned argument to justify using BTC as every-day currency, for what could amount to an endless chain of my very own Multi-Million-Dollar BTC Pizza (http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-pizza-day-celebrating-pizza-bought-10000-btc/) stories years down the road.

There is no doubt that the ecosystem is growing.  Bitcoin Venture Capital (http://www.coindesk.com/will-bitcoin-venture-capital-investment-reach-300m-2014/) is soaring at rates not seen since the Internet Angel boom in 1994.  Bitcoin adoption rate (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=655792.0) is skyrocketing, but transaction volume (https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions) remains mostly flat at around 60,000 transactions per day, and may even decline (especially on a per user basis).  Perhaps not yet fair, but for the sake of comparison, Visa processes about 66 million transactions per day, and Paypal about 9.3 million per day.  

Trending BTC user hoarding behavior isn't really much of a surprise...where is the incentive to spend something that has virtually unlimited upside?  Whereas spending BTC could have devastating unknown opportunity costs.  Despite what the IRS thinks (http://www.irs.gov/uac/Newsroom/IRS-Virtual-Currency-Guidance), Bitcoin has endless well-documented benefits for use as a currency: be your own bank, global nature, speed, low-cost, no chargebacks, identify theft resistance, no government dependency, lack of inflation, etc.  But while Bitcoin certainly fulfills the functions of money, the majority of users don't seem to be treating it as such.  Things are evolving quickly...and I'm wondering what the community thinks about where we are and where we're headed?  Is Bitcoin ultimately destined to be treated as an investment or a currency...or could it really be both (and if so, how would this manifest)?

Spending Fiat is easy...no one expects that the Dollar or Euro they spend today might be worth orders of magnitude more down the road.  So the next time you visit Dell, Overstock, NewEgg or Expedia looking to spend your BTC...might as well ask them if they'll take GOOG instead ;)

Here's more info and a great read on the topic: Bitcoin's Failed Coup of Wall Street (https://medium.com/@brettking/bitcoins-failed-coup-of-wall-street-621bd309b18)

If I have nothing else to spend, I'm going to spend Bitcoin.  If I have something else to spend.... why hasn't it been converted to Bitcoin already?

i buy my food with bitcoin,

but i dont touch my hoard, thats locked in cold store. instead with my regular income and profits i make, i split and put some into cold store for savings (increasing my hoard) and i then spend the rest.

if you put something in for investments. you obviously have normal income aswell, so use normal income first, whether paid in bitcoin or fiat, use regular income first not life savings.

A complex fallacy ridden OP answered with a simple truth.

I e-mailed Ocado in the UK about accepting Bitcoin (400,000 customers). They pretty much said they hadn't heard of it although this was just the customer support team.

you could always divide your stash into a long term holding stash and a short term spending stash.
whatever purchasing power you would use to buy products for the short term using fiat currency you could just buy with bitcoin instead.

Care to elaborate?  I take it you are a long-term BTC investor: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=712506.msg8060163#msg8060163

I have basically have made my BTC like a piggy bank that I periodically add to.   I haven't needed to spend any, so I just buy what I need in USD. 

If GOOG was appreciating as much as Bitcoin every year and you could buy things with it, why would you hold fiat?

If you convert every paycheck to bitcoins then that money appreciates before you spend it.

If you do not convert every paycheck then that fiat just loses value until you spend it.

Precisely...by this line of reasoning then, is this perhaps why people seem to be hoarding, rather than spending BTC?

Once fiat is converted to BTC the value of your money appreciates, so why would you spend it?

Why do you currently spend your paycheck on anything, instead of converting it all to appreciating assets?

I convert a portion of my paycheck into bitcoin and then I spend a portion of that when the merchant accepts Bitcoins.  If I didn't then I would need to convert less of my paycheck into Bitcoin so I had enough "cash" to pay the merchant.   The advantage is that the time between when I receive pay and I spend it (even for the portion I spend) I benefit from appreciation instead of purchasing power depreciation.  I have also found I makes me take a closer look at the purchase. Spending Bitcoin seems a lot more "real" then entering a CC number.

So the flip side of your question would be why do people have "cash" for more than immediate spending needs?  There are trillions of dollars in "cash" (both physical and demand accounts) just seeing their purchasing power decline.

I would rather just use bitcoin as a investment and spend usd for regular expenses.

This is helpful.  Very much agreed on how "real" it feels to spend BTC relative to $...and I'd say part of the reason for this is BTC appreciative nature.  The idea of increased purchasing power has obvious merit, despite the significant increased and inherent current market risks (short-term BTC price decline relative to widely accepted fiat vendor benchmarks).  Immediate spending needs however (like groceries), would still lend themselves to using depreciating fiat then...unless inflation became unbearable.  It would seem that for now at least, fiat should be used for more routine purchases and BTC should be held?   

The ecosystem seems to be dictating this, despite the recent MIT report (http://www.coindesk.com/mit-report-bitcoin-more-likely-spent-hoarded/) regarding NEW Bitcoins being more likely spent than hoarded, the transaction charts (https://blockchain.info/charts) seem to be painting a very different picture regarding existing BTC.

You're still not getting it.  If BTC is GUARANTEED to appreciate compared to fiat, then why hold any fiat at all?  Assume a world where everything you could ever want to purchase is purchasable with Bitcoin.

Assuming Bitcoin appreciation, there is no reason to say that "fiat should be used for more routine purchases".  Why would you say that?  What makes fiat better for routine purposes than Bitcoin?  The fact that Bitcoin can appreciate, so you might be missing out on appreciation because you spent it?  Ok, so why not have all of your money in Bitcoin and just use it as needed?  Then, at least you can enjoy short-term appreciation until the Bitcoin is spent.

Putting all of that aside, the implied argument that you seem to be making is that people won't spend an appreciating currency.  That's easily proven false in two ways:

1)  Computers/technology.  People could wait until next year to get an even better, faster computer with more features for the same price.  Yet they buy computers today.  How can you explain that when their purchasing power is increasing over time?  Obviously, increasing purchasing power does not discourage people from buying pieces of technology.

2)  Investments/stocks.  Anyone can easily increase their purchasing power over time by investing into stocks, mutual funds, real estate, etc.  Yet, many choose not to.  How can you explain the fact that people are buying ANYTHING beyond what is absolutely necessary to survive when they could instead be increasing their purchasing power by investment?

The whole argument that people won't spend an appreciating currency sounds great on the surface, but is really just a complete fallacy.

Why would you hold fiat long enough to spend it if you could instead gain value during that same time?

And the idea of hoarding is losing ground daily. People used to hoard because there was not much else to do with bitcoins. Now there are more and more uses. I funded most of my vacation using bitcoins from the hotel to the air fare.

Once BTC becomes easier to rebuy (I think coinbase has this option), I'd buy everything with BTC; especially if I was greeted with a discount like many merchants are doing.

This is a no-brainer for both merchant and customer. Secure funds, discount, irreversible transaction - ummm yeah!

I buy and sell BTC. The hardest part for me is getting more BTC quickly. The rest is easy. Once it becomes easy for everyday users, we all will wish we had more BTC.

Agreed assuming appreciation...and if Bitcoin depreciates short term (relative to fiat)?  To be clear--I'm not saying people won't spend an appreciating currency...I'm saying that the evidence is suggesting that they're not spending an appreciating currency.  If you haven't already, take a moment to read this article linked in OP: Bitcoin's Failed Coup of Wall Street (https://medium.com/@brettking/bitcoins-failed-coup-of-wall-street-621bd309b18)

Not taking any hard stance here btw.  The point is to spark discussion from experts and everyday users alike to address a very real concern held and raised by many.  We can all agree that it's a new world order...Bitcoin is unlike anything anyone has ever seen, so perspective is important.  I'd like to see evidence, hard evidence suggesting that people are not hoarding their BTC.  SHOW ME, don't tell me that it's a fallacy that people won't spend an appreciating currency...numbers, charts, graphs, maths, trends, facts.  Need more than Bitcoin bias...of which I already have plenty myself.  I'd love nothing more...

Groceries for me are typically bought in little spurts, in which case, an average bill is probably $6.
Not enough to justify using Bitcoins, so in the current market, cash makes most sense for buying petty groceries, IMO.

I use USD currently but I'd prefer to use QRK.

The problem with BTC is I like to keep my mobile wallet empty, and load it when I'm planning to use it. So if I'm going to be shopping at more than one store, will the change be confirmed and spendable after the first merchant?

Typically yet, but not always. With QRK - 3 min confirms is extremely rare. So I don't have to worry about strategic partitioning of outputs when filling my phone for shopping to make sure a lengthy block doesn't limit change confirmation, I can send it all as a single output.

Guaranteed by who?

Nobody hence the "if". The OP claim was based around the idea that BTC will increase in value and hence nobody will spend it which is still a flawed assumption.

There is still risk to owning bitcoin, many risks.

DeathAndTaxes...understand your position (and very much respect your perspective btw, have learned much from your past posts), held by many staunch Bitcoin advocates...now can you provide some hard evidence please to help everyone understand how and why this is the case?   OP has several links, data, articles and other evidence that seem to suggest that people are currently hoarding BTC.  Is there a resource of some kind that can fulfill the request I made to SgtSpike below...

What I used to do (while mining was profitable) is put half into my cold storage, and half into my hot wallet where I could buy stuff. Cold storage is still not used, and I will never use it (I want to hold onto it until bitcoin reaches a massive price, then I will sell).

I do spend my coin but I am wiser about spending then with fiat. I guess in the back of my mind I and always thinking the coin could go up and then I have overpaid for this item. For example I would rather spend $5 paypal on fiverr then to send them my bitcoin. I know that fiat will never double so it is a safe way to pay. There is a chance that bitcoin could rise and tomorrow I could have overpaid. I guess you could argue tomorrow bitcoin could be worth nothing and I got a great deal. I'm just optimistic i guess :)

OMG thats exactly what I do! I think of bitcoin as worth 1000$ all the time, because I just know in my gut that it will hit that price again, and I refrain from buying things because it is worth only 60% than it usually is worth. I'd way rather spend my fiat than bitcoin today, because I know that it can't double tomorrow, whereas bitcoin has a chance.

If people are thinking this way today, when 25 BTC is being introduced into the total coin supply every 10 minutes, I wonder how people are going to think about actually using their BTC to buy things when the supply stops increasing in 2140 (or even before then, once successive block reward halvings have made the amount of newly generated coins negligible). :(

I know one person here uses his BTC to buy things and then immediately replaces his spent BTC with newly bought coins so that his total BTC balance remains constant. This could be an option, as you would be using your BTC and helping the BTC economy while also keeping your investment intact at the same time. I would think that fees might make this not worthwhile for some people, however. I buy the majority of my BTC from LocalBitcoins, so this strategy would be infeasible for someone like me.

Buy?

I just steal groceries. Most grocery stores have very poor security. Just shove them apples in your pockets.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_MnI-nl_QHYM/TKYZm1kJv5I/AAAAAAAAACA/WuPC8-WLshg/s1600/aladdin2.JPG

I salute.

cash and cc are already easy to pay for everyday stuff. How could btc improve this ? Not to mention the scalability problem, merchant adoption is not the real utility of BTC. We are just riding on merchant adoption to get bitcoin to mainstream.

Although if you are low in cash, and hoard a lot of BTC, you probably won't mind spending some dust on food and drink right ?

And a good amount of BTC will spill out of hands of hoarders every time the price is on rally, roger ver, eric voorhee will buy private islands, limos and lambos, because we are not getting younger no matter how much rich we are.

I would never buy groceries with BTC, although I could see it happen.

I'd pay hard cold cash only.  ;)

Cool discussion, OP!

I'm the co-founder of LivePura.  I started it for a few reasons:
1).  Bitcoin as a currency has been challenged specifically because you could not eat with it.  I wanted to change that.
2).  BTC is my primary source of income and I didn't want to have to exchange it for fiat.  And I know there are others like me...

I have that same value perception of spending Bitcoin, but there are a whole lot of people that bought or mined Bitcoin when it was worth $50 or less.  I have now purchased a number of items using Bitcoin and I just like the way the transaction feels.  For me, it's fun to support businesses that support Bitcoin. 

And the sci-fi guy within me just thinks "The Spice must flow...."  I'm unsure if crypto can become legitimate currency if everyone just holds it and I want that more than anything.  I say '"Crypto" because I'm unsure if Bitcoin will ever be a day-to-day currency - but I hope some Crypto will be!  Just my thoughts - but I have full understanding of those that just want to hold. 

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JDS1000

Really depend on price.

If price is lower in bitcoin, then I will pay using btc. If not, then cash.

no i would not since i never was meant to use btc for this purpose.. but... if i had millions and i wanted to send them across the world and have it be final within a few hours i would be happy to do so.  ohh yea and the fee would be negligible :-)

I appreciate where you are coming from....

How much of a discount over Cash/CC would you need for you to use bitcoin?

Money's value does not come from transaction, this is a typical statement from today's banking system since their money worth nothing. But bitcoin worth already something when it is created (R&D on chips and electricity), so it does not require to be transacted to keep its value

You never use pension fund/government bond to purchase groceries, but they still holds their value, as long as you can liquidate them at any time

I just use which one is cheaper
BTC / USD is fine for me

I really doubt whether I'll pay for my groceries with BTC, even if the shops accept it. Carrying BTCs around is quite risky, as well as inconvenient. Devices such as smartphones can be hacked and all the coins in them can be stolen.

if someone can get your cell phone (which most carry around anyways so its not like its a special device), then these same pickpockets can get your leather wallet containing your bank notes, credit cards and driving licence.. hmmm now what can i do by replicating your driving licence or using your details on a website to empty your debit card,.... hmmm

now for a pickpocketer to get your bitcoins they would also need to be a hacker and get into your phones pin number and your wallets password...

now which is more risky bank notes and debit cards..... or bitcoin

Yeah, price is going to be a big motivator. Also it depends on whether or not I'm currently being paid in USD or BTC. If I have BTC cashflow and I don't have to convert fiat to USD then all else being equal I would pay with BTC.

USD? Like 100% of the world uses USD for fiat, right?

Ever bought a smart phone, computer, other electronic device that you knew would go down in price soon after you purchased it?

Why didn't you save your money and wait for the price to go down? Why would you ever spend your money on something that loses value? Just hold and you can buy that device 2 years later when you could afford to buy 10, 20 of them with the same amount of currency.

Agreed--this is from the MIT Report (http://www.technologyreview.com/graphiti/524796/show-me-the-bitcoins/) that I referenced in an earlier post...and initially seemed to address new Bitcoins only (this link shows updated language in lower left chart).  This was later amended in the comments section, but still unclear as chart only seems to reference transactions within certain timeframes after initial mining...or after acquisition?  This is the only piece of evidence I could find that points towards trending BTC spending versus hoarding...although even this chart states that a US shutdown sparked hoarding in October 2013, causing a price spike.

Now let's talk about all coins generally...circulated coins if you will.  The Blockchain charts paint a very different picture.  With roughly 5 million BTC users, and transaction volume around 60,000 per day, we're looking at 1 transaction every three months per user...not exactly a vibrant economy.  The total output volume chart down-trending is especially troubling: https://blockchain.info/charts/output-volume  This shows that at the current float, only about 3-4% of all BTC is moving daily...what then, is the other 96% doing...?  And keep in mind, that even of this 3-4%, not all of it is necessarily being spent...much of this volume is likely day-trading, and some transactions are users just moving their own BTC from one wallet to another wallet they own.

Regardless, I suppose the larger question we should be addressing generally is...Why don't more people spend Bitcoin, and what will it take to change current trends?

To clarify assertions made earlier, I've never stated that no one will spend an appreciating currency, but it does seem like Bitcoin's appreciative nature is causing a large portion of the user base to hoard.  Now to address these comments made on a couple of occasions:


You are talking about Moore's Law--the cost of a unit decreases exponentially over time.  People want instant gratification, or moreover...have a need that must be fulfilled near-term, like needing a new computer.  The consumer gratification created by purchasing the product is enough to overcome the potential for increased purchasing power down the road...sometimes, other times people do wait, often for years before buying that new car or computer, until the product/technology reaches maturity and prices bottom out a bit.  Not sure this applies seamlessly to spending or saving BTC.  Perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to trading or holding quickly appreciating stocks.  

I can't speak to why some people do or don't invest in stocks, real estate et al...we'd have to ask those people.  What I can say is that people buy and do things that don't increase their purchasing power for myriad reasons.  None of which explain the technical trends regarding BTC hoarding that seem to be apparent in the Blockchain charts.  People seem to be viewing Bitcoin as a good long-term speculative investment and hodling (sorry, couldn't help myself), and they are generally choosing to make their purchases by some other means...for now.

If I could I would use BTC for everything I purchase, I find it a much better way to pay for things, if I also had the choice I would get my paycheck in BTC

Umm depends. I really don't know if Bitcoin is easy and fast enough for the day-to-day purchases. For smaller sums cash is still a nice solution. What I don't like about cash is that it's kinda dirty and sticks. Bitcoins are cleaner. Although, I've heard that there are some that smell like Frappuccino for some reason...

I think you might have some unrealistic expectations about the velocity of money.  The velocity of money varies by a number of factors but generally is in a range of 1 to 2 and that is annually.  I can't recall any functional economy having a velocity of >5 in modern history.  If all 3% was economic activity (which it isn't) that would be a velocity of >10.  I am not sure why you would expect the txn volume to be an even higher percentage of the float.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?hires=1&type=image/png&chart_type=line&recession_bars=on&log_scales=&bgcolor=%23e1e9f0&graph_bgcolor=%23ffffff&fo=verdana&ts=12&tts=12&txtcolor=%23444444&show_legend=yes&show_axis_titles=yes&drp=0&cosd=1959-01-01&coed=2014-01-01&width=670&height=445&stacking=&range=Custom&mode=fred&id=M2V&transformation=lin&nd=&ost=-99999&oet=99999&scale=left&line_color=%234572a7&line_style=solid&lw=2&mark_type=none&mw=1&mma=0&fml=a&fgst=lin&fq=Quarterly&fam=avg&vintage_date=&revision_date=

If you break that down daily it would mean right now ~0.3% of the money supply in the US "changes hands" each day and 99.7% doesn't move at all.  This is to be expected.  Most entities (people, business, organizations) don't spend every cent they acquire as soon as they acquire it.  Even people "living paycheck to paycheck" generally spread out consumption over a two week period.  Maybe not perfectly distributed but certainly not spend 100% of paycheck hours after getting it and then consumption is 0 for 13.96 days.  For savers the portion they save will have a velocity of <1, potentially a small fraction of one.  Companies often keep a years worth of operating capital in reserve to ride out bad sales, bad decisions, or an overall bad economy ("yes cash is king").  

It just isn't human nature for money to have some off the charts velocity.  Keeping something in reserve is in our DNA.  You likely are here right now because one of your ancestors did save some resources.  The ones that didn't starved to death.  There are a couple of high profile reports of people buying sports cars with Bitcoins but my guess is they wait until they had exactly enough Bitcoin down to the satoshi and then spent them all.  Sure they may have spent hundreds or thousands or Bitcoins but they only did so because of the reserve they didn't spend.  Deep in that subconcious they felt ok with splurging because of the comfort that remaining reserve gave them.

So based on this analysis, would you say that you are quite comfortable with current BTC circulation velocity?

Perhaps what is most disconcerting from my point of view is the trending decrease in transaction activity, despite the recent meteoric rise in new users.

The fundamentals of saving notwithstanding, the concern would be that given Bitcoin's unique nature...too much hoarding could potentially lead to a spiraling version of Keynesian Paradox of Thrift.

For a currency which has only existed for 5 years and really has only had reasonable choices on where to spend it in the last year?  Sure.


It actually hasn't.  There is a lot of noise in the numbers but lets take a look at what it looks like when we look at a trailing twelve month moving average.

Daily Transaction Volume:
https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions?timespan=all&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=365&show_header=true&scale=0&address=

Compared to a year ago txn volume on a TTM basis is about 20% higher.  Now one might say "only 20% growth" but the prior year we saw txn volume increase 7000%.  That wasn't due to rational increase in economic activity.  It was due to a lot of spam, waste, and bloat.  Like Satoshi Dice having each two txns on the blockchain for every bet and some betters making hundreds of bets per hour.  Even the losses were "paid" out as spammy 1 satoshi txns.   Miners were just as bad.  Many would set auto payout to the absolute minimum and instead of taking one payment per day from the mining pool they could get 30 or 40.  Today txn fees are low but not zero and that has caused a change in behavior.  

Estimated USD Daily Transaction Volume:
https://blockchain.info/charts/estimated-transaction-volume-usd?showDataPoints=false&timespan=all&show_header=true&daysAverageString=365&scale=0&address=

Now keep in mind this is just an estimate.  It is impossible to verify for sure exactly how much the user intended to transfer but some reasonable guestimates can be made.  For example if a user spends 0.37285783 in multiple inputs and creates two outputs one is exactly 0.25 and the other is 0.12285783 it is more likely the 0.25 was the intended amount.  Now the point of these numbers is not the exact amount but the change over time.  May 2012 on a TTM basis it was $6M per day and in May 2013 it was $60M per day.  More users, more merchants, only 20% more transactions but 10x the volume being transfered.  Why?  Well it is hard to safe for sure but it kind of hard to say users are just hoarding coins or that they are hoarding more coins then they did in 2012.  With an average price this year of $600 the miners collect ~$2M but the volume of txns is closer to $60M.  Hard to fathom a scenario where miners liquidate $2M in new coins a day, speculators buy those $2M in new coins and it somehow requires funds to change "hands" 15x each day to make it all work. 



That assumes that you believe in Keynesian anything.  Still even if true the paradox of thrift would only apply if Bitcoin was the sole currency in the world (global commerce could absolutely not occur unless Bitcoins were spent) or would be limited to sectors that used Bitcoins exclusively (i.e. SilkRoad).  Otherwise it is like saying "Gold will become worthless because it will become too valuable".

The longer term view is most helpful in this discussion.  Not sure I completely agree with the last point, given that micro-ecosystems can suffer from their own devices, regardless of surrounding environments.  But the information you provide is exactly the kind of factual offset I've been looking for...things are not always what they seem and it's important to keep perspective in a Bitcoin world where people measure years of progress in weeks or months. 

Despite the spam and mining reasoning you provided...I find the 7000% to 20% year-over-year volume growth statistic fascinating...this seems to lend itself to the possibility of increased quality versus quantity transactions.

That's why you don't keep a lot on cellphone wallet. All the main stash should be kept cold, ideally with multisig. Then another wallet on laptop for a few BTCs to refill the cellphone wallet.

Bitcoin all the way.

Yeah, everyone should just keep as much BTC on their phone or whatever as they would in their real wallet that they put fiat in.

Also interesting about this, beyond what D&T has already mentioned is that this volume seems to have at least some correlation with the price over the same period of time.  http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/bitstampUSD#rg360ztgSzm1g10zm2g25zv

In other words, as Bitcoin appreciates, people are more likely to spend it.

I feel like no one should spend their BTC until we know how high its really gonna go.

I agree, everyone hold your bitcoins and do not do anything until we are told what the price will be. Hopefully some government authority will tell us what to do like they do with the rest of our lives.

OK--it's time for a poll.  Just added...let's get scientific...

Just saying, all it takes is someone behind your back to catch your login identifier and password if that's what it would be like. Bitcoin credit card's are just something I can't see happening at all. Why would the world need to use bitcoin to buy groceries anyways?

It is far from a guarantee that BTC will appreciate, however IMO the chances are great that it will over the long run.

Bitcoin is much more secure than debit and credit cards.

Nobody with any sense puts more bitcoins on their phone than they would put cash in their wallet.

Another good (long) discussion on the topic (http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1rzo2w/why_spend_bitcoin_if_itll_be_worth_more_tomorrow/).

All the bitcoins I have at this moment in time are safely stored away. I tend to use money away from bitcoin for groceries and such at the moment but I would not ever rule out me using bitcoin at some point to buy groceries.

Haha :P

And then on the count of three we all unload them at the same time, right? ;)

I would disagree. A credit card has a maximum liability of $50 (generally, but most credit card issuers have $0 liability), while you have the potential of loosing all of your bitcoin when your private keys are compromised.

well at my country, Bitcoin transaction is still unauthorized.
So i spend it all if i have some.
The other point is bitcoin market is fragile, so i'm afraid the price will drop out without notice

Soon as people can goto woolworths, coles or aldi and start buying there weekly food or groceries this is when much MUCH more spending will occur

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A new question for the OP - what makes you think a Bitcoin has a future comparable to Google's past performance?

Using Bitcoin as purely an investment undermines the original purpose of Bitcoin, no? It's a currency to be spent for goods and services. As this spending increases the price volatility should settle and as more coins are mined (and supply goes up) the price to USD should go down, right?

Can you cite any sources to support your claim that VC interest is "soaring at rates not seen since 1994"?

What about the last year? BTC is down over 50% (to USD) from it's high mark within the last 12 months. When you change the size of the frame the picture looks a bit different.

Well I want to buy them with BTC but sadly it is just not accepted nearby.
I am however on vacation and feel the urge to try paying with BTC here.

Are you sure? The suspense is killing me...what's it going to be? BTC, GOOG, or USD?

i am saving my BTC, because it will go up in value. BUT if all the stores around me took BTC, then i would be converting my pay checks to BTC and spending them that way. I would use it as my main currency if i could.

You could use the Xapo debit card.

They did lie about the whole no fees thing though.

why not just pay with bitcoin and if you, for any reason, have some dollars left, than rebuy your bitcoin with those dollars?

I'm happy to buy anything with Bitcoin. I just immediately buy more whenever I spend any. If I spend $50 in BTC, I buy $50 in BTC.

Don't believe I ever said it did...I indicated that the values were comparable at that moment in time...and I linked their current valuations.  As the ol' investing disclaimer suggests; past performance is no indicator of future results.


It would seem to me that the "purpose of Bitcoin" (and perhaps more importantly the Blockchain) is far from established...and is in fact just beginning to reveal and manifest itself.  No need to preempt possibilities...which at the moment are rather exponential.   


Got about 100 more sources where these came from...not the least of which are Angels I work with around the world...

http://moneymorning.com/2014/06/16/venture-capitalists-are-investing-in-bitcoin-at-the-fastest-pace-to-date/ (http://moneymorning.com/2014/06/16/venture-capitalists-are-investing-in-bitcoin-at-the-fastest-pace-to-date/)

http://www.coindesk.com/marc-andreessen-balaji-srinivasan-discuss-bitcoin/ (http://www.coindesk.com/marc-andreessen-balaji-srinivasan-discuss-bitcoin/)

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-venture-capital/ (http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-venture-capital/)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9qJO2tNL3s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9qJO2tNL3s)


Near-term risk is indeed very real, with markets established as they are right now.  I know of quite a few people that have lost quite a bit of fiat on paper since jumping into Bitcoin late last year...much current VC interest is in infrastructure and building the ecosystem and support structures and not in BTC-direct purchases.  The position held by some folks appears to be that Bitcoin appreciates, therefore there is no point in holding fiat, but that is of course...not a guarantee at the moment.  Depreciation of fiat on the other hand...does seem to be a spiraling guarantee.  I recall a time...barely...when dollars would actually buy more overseas from time to time...rather than ever-less.

DeathAndTaxes provided nice bigger-picture perspective on BTC valuation trending...
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=716258.msg8106799#msg8106799

Based on various recent polls...very scientific I know...it looks as though roughly 80% of users on this forum are either saving all or most of their BTC, while the other 20% are spending most of their BTC.

Take from this what you will...

I would reiterate a version of an initial question posed:  Is Bitcoin ultimately destined to be treated as more of an investment, a currency or something else...?

Seems that the steady 2014 exchange rate declines have caused up to 70% of coins to lay largely dormant this year:

http://www.coindesk.com/analysis-around-70-bitcoins-dormant-least-six-months/

Will be interesting to see what happens next...

I'd use Bitcoin. I've actually told store owners that accepting Bitcoin can be as easy as taking credit cards with none of the transaction fees they have to put up with when using credit cards. It would be sweet to buy groceries with BTC.

True, though I would like to convince retailers to pay their employees in Bitcoin too.

That wouldn't hurt my feelings much.