[POLL] When Buying Groceries...would you use BTC, GOOG or USD...?

[ducatitalia]

So I see this great thread today for Live Pura and it gets me thinking again about something that I've been deliberating for some time.  I visit the site, add items to my cart...then have the recurring realization that spending BTC for groceries online, is the equivalent of paying the clerk at my local Publix or Costco with Class-A shares of Google stock!

Tell me again why it makes sense to risk unlimited upside long-term potential, for the purchase of short-term consumables?  I know this has been a running discussion for several years now...I've studied countless topic threads and online research on the issue, but have yet to hear enough of a well-reasoned argument to justify using BTC as every-day currency, for what could amount to an endless chain of my very own Multi-Million-Dollar BTC Pizza stories years down the road.

There is no doubt that the ecosystem is growing.  Bitcoin Venture Capital is soaring at rates not seen since the Internet Angel boom in 1994.  Bitcoin adoption rate is skyrocketing, but transaction volume remains mostly flat at around 60,000 transactions per day, and may even decline (especially on a per user basis).  Perhaps not yet fair, but for the sake of comparison, Visa processes about 66 million transactions per day, and Paypal about 9.3 million per day.  

Trending BTC user hoarding behavior isn't really much of a surprise...where is the incentive to spend something that has virtually unlimited upside?  Whereas spending BTC could have devastating unknown opportunity costs.  Despite what the IRS thinks, Bitcoin has endless well-documented benefits for use as a currency: be your own bank, global nature, speed, low-cost, no chargebacks, identify theft resistance, no government dependency, lack of inflation, etc.  But while Bitcoin certainly fulfills the functions of money, the majority of users don't seem to be treating it as such.  Things are evolving quickly...and I'm wondering what the community thinks about where we are and where we're headed?  Is Bitcoin ultimately destined to be treated as an investment or a currency...or could it really be both (and if so, how would this manifest)?

Spending Fiat is easy...no one expects that the Dollar or Euro they spend today might be worth orders of magnitude more down the road.  So the next time you visit Dell, Overstock, NewEgg or Expedia looking to spend your BTC...might as well ask them if they'll take GOOG instead

Here's more info and a great read on the topic: Bitcoin's Failed Coup of Wall Street

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[SgtSpike]

If I have nothing else to spend, I'm going to spend Bitcoin.  If I have something else to spend.... why hasn't it been converted to Bitcoin already?

[franky1]

i buy my food with bitcoin,

but i dont touch my hoard, thats locked in cold store. instead with my regular income and profits i make, i split and put some into cold store for savings (increasing my hoard) and i then spend the rest.

if you put something in for investments. you obviously have normal income aswell, so use normal income first, whether paid in bitcoin or fiat, use regular income first not life savings.

[cbeast]

If I have nothing else to spend, I'm going to spend Bitcoin.  If I have something else to spend.... why hasn't it been converted to Bitcoin already?

A complex fallacy ridden OP answered with a simple truth.

[btbrae]

I e-mailed Ocado in the UK about accepting Bitcoin (400,000 customers). They pretty much said they hadn't heard of it although this was just the customer support team.

[Robert Paulson]

you could always divide your stash into a long term holding stash and a short term spending stash.
whatever purchasing power you would use to buy products for the short term using fiat currency you could just buy with bitcoin instead.

[ducatitalia]

If I have nothing else to spend, I'm going to spend Bitcoin.  If I have something else to spend.... why hasn't it been converted to Bitcoin already?

A complex fallacy ridden OP answered with a simple truth.

Care to elaborate?  I take it you are a long-term BTC investor: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=712506.msg8060163#msg8060163

[keithers]

I have basically have made my BTC like a piggy bank that I periodically add to.   I haven't needed to spend any, so I just buy what I need in USD. 

[Elwar]

If GOOG was appreciating as much as Bitcoin every year and you could buy things with it, why would you hold fiat?

If you convert every paycheck to bitcoins then that money appreciates before you spend it.

If you do not convert every paycheck then that fiat just loses value until you spend it.

[ducatitalia]

If GOOG was appreciating as much as Bitcoin every year and you could buy things with it, why would you hold fiat?

If you convert every paycheck to bitcoins then that money appreciates before you spend it.

If you do not convert every paycheck then that fiat just loses value until you spend it.

Precisely...by this line of reasoning then, is this perhaps why people seem to be hoarding, rather than spending BTC?

Once fiat is converted to BTC the value of your money appreciates, so why would you spend it?

[DeathAndTaxes]

If GOOG was appreciating as much as Bitcoin every year and you could buy things with it, why would you hold fiat?

If you convert every paycheck to bitcoins then that money appreciates before you spend it.

If you do not convert every paycheck then that fiat just loses value until you spend it.

Precisely...by this line of reasoning then, is this perhaps why people seem to be hoarding, rather than spending BTC?

Once fiat is converted to BTC the value of your money appreciates, so why would you spend it?

Why do you currently spend your paycheck on anything, instead of converting it all to appreciating assets?

I convert a portion of my paycheck into bitcoin and then I spend a portion of that when the merchant accepts Bitcoins.  If I didn't then I would need to convert less of my paycheck into Bitcoin so I had enough "cash" to pay the merchant.   The advantage is that the time between when I receive pay and I spend it (even for the portion I spend) I benefit from appreciation instead of purchasing power depreciation.  I have also found I makes me take a closer look at the purchase. Spending Bitcoin seems a lot more "real" then entering a CC number.

So the flip side of your question would be why do people have "cash" for more than immediate spending needs?  There are trillions of dollars in "cash" (both physical and demand accounts) just seeing their purchasing power decline.

[Matze]

I would rather just use bitcoin as a investment and spend usd for regular expenses.

[ducatitalia]

If GOOG was appreciating as much as Bitcoin every year and you could buy things with it, why would you hold fiat?

If you convert every paycheck to bitcoins then that money appreciates before you spend it.

If you do not convert every paycheck then that fiat just loses value until you spend it.

Precisely...by this line of reasoning then, is this perhaps why people seem to be hoarding, rather than spending BTC?

Once fiat is converted to BTC the value of your money appreciates, so why would you spend it?

Why do you currently spend your paycheck of anything instead of converting it all to appreciating assets?

I convert a portion of my paycheck into bitcoin and then I spend a portion of that when the merchant accepts Bitcoins.  If I didn't then I would need to convert less of my paycheck into Bitcoin so I had enough "cash" to pay the merchant.   The advantage is that the time between when I receive pay and I spend it (even for the portion I spend) I benefit from appreciation instead of purchasing power depreciation.  I have also found I makes me take a closer look at the purchase. Spending Bitcoin seems a lot more "real" then entering a CC number.

So the flip side of your question would be why do people have "cash" for more than immediate spending needs?  There are trillions of dollars in "cash" (both physical and demand accounts) just seeing their purchasing power decline.

This is helpful.  Very much agreed on how "real" it feels to spend BTC relative to $...and I'd say part of the reason for this is BTC appreciative nature.  The idea of increased purchasing power has obvious merit, despite the significant increased and inherent current market risks (short-term BTC price decline relative to widely accepted fiat vendor benchmarks).  Immediate spending needs however (like groceries), would still lend themselves to using depreciating fiat then...unless inflation became unbearable.  It would seem that for now at least, fiat should be used for more routine purchases and BTC should be held?   

The ecosystem seems to be dictating this, despite the recent MIT report regarding NEW Bitcoins being more likely spent than hoarded, the transaction charts seem to be painting a very different picture regarding existing BTC.

[SgtSpike]

If GOOG was appreciating as much as Bitcoin every year and you could buy things with it, why would you hold fiat?

If you convert every paycheck to bitcoins then that money appreciates before you spend it.

If you do not convert every paycheck then that fiat just loses value until you spend it.

Precisely...by this line of reasoning then, is this perhaps why people seem to be hoarding, rather than spending BTC?

Once fiat is converted to BTC the value of your money appreciates, so why would you spend it?

Why do you currently spend your paycheck of anything instead of converting it all to appreciating assets?

I convert a portion of my paycheck into bitcoin and then I spend a portion of that when the merchant accepts Bitcoins.  If I didn't then I would need to convert less of my paycheck into Bitcoin so I had enough "cash" to pay the merchant.   The advantage is that the time between when I receive pay and I spend it (even for the portion I spend) I benefit from appreciation instead of purchasing power depreciation.  I have also found I makes me take a closer look at the purchase. Spending Bitcoin seems a lot more "real" then entering a CC number.

So the flip side of your question would be why do people have "cash" for more than immediate spending needs?  There are trillions of dollars in "cash" (both physical and demand accounts) just seeing their purchasing power decline.

This is helpful.  Very much agreed on how "real" it feels to spend BTC relative to $...and I'd say part of the reason for this is BTC appreciative nature.  The idea of increased purchasing power has obvious merit, despite the significant increased and inherent current market risks (short-term BTC price decline relative to widely accepted fiat vendor benchmarks).  Immediate spending needs however (like groceries), would still lend themselves to using depreciating fiat then...unless inflation became unbearable.  It would seem that for now at least, fiat should be used for more routine purchases and BTC should be held?   

The ecosystem seems to be dictating this, despite the recent MIT report regarding NEW Bitcoins being more likely spent than hoarded, the transaction charts seem to be painting a very different picture regarding existing BTC.

You're still not getting it.  If BTC is GUARANTEED to appreciate compared to fiat, then why hold any fiat at all?  Assume a world where everything you could ever want to purchase is purchasable with Bitcoin.

Assuming Bitcoin appreciation, there is no reason to say that "fiat should be used for more routine purchases".  Why would you say that?  What makes fiat better for routine purposes than Bitcoin?  The fact that Bitcoin can appreciate, so you might be missing out on appreciation because you spent it?  Ok, so why not have all of your money in Bitcoin and just use it as needed?  Then, at least you can enjoy short-term appreciation until the Bitcoin is spent.

Putting all of that aside, the implied argument that you seem to be making is that people won't spend an appreciating currency.  That's easily proven false in two ways:

1)  Computers/technology.  People could wait until next year to get an even better, faster computer with more features for the same price.  Yet they buy computers today.  How can you explain that when their purchasing power is increasing over time?  Obviously, increasing purchasing power does not discourage people from buying pieces of technology.

2)  Investments/stocks.  Anyone can easily increase their purchasing power over time by investing into stocks, mutual funds, real estate, etc.  Yet, many choose not to.  How can you explain the fact that people are buying ANYTHING beyond what is absolutely necessary to survive when they could instead be increasing their purchasing power by investment?

The whole argument that people won't spend an appreciating currency sounds great on the surface, but is really just a complete fallacy.

[Elwar]

If GOOG was appreciating as much as Bitcoin every year and you could buy things with it, why would you hold fiat?

If you convert every paycheck to bitcoins then that money appreciates before you spend it.

If you do not convert every paycheck then that fiat just loses value until you spend it.

Precisely...by this line of reasoning then, is this perhaps why people seem to be hoarding, rather than spending BTC?

Once fiat is converted to BTC the value of your money appreciates, so why would you spend it?

Why would you hold fiat long enough to spend it if you could instead gain value during that same time?

And the idea of hoarding is losing ground daily. People used to hoard because there was not much else to do with bitcoins. Now there are more and more uses. I funded most of my vacation using bitcoins from the hotel to the air fare.

[pirsquared]

Once BTC becomes easier to rebuy (I think coinbase has this option), I'd buy everything with BTC; especially if I was greeted with a discount like many merchants are doing.

This is a no-brainer for both merchant and customer. Secure funds, discount, irreversible transaction - ummm yeah!

I buy and sell BTC. The hardest part for me is getting more BTC quickly. The rest is easy. Once it becomes easy for everyday users, we all will wish we had more BTC.

[ducatitalia]

You're still not getting it.  If BTC is GUARANTEED to appreciate compared to fiat, then why hold any fiat at all?  Assume a world where everything you could ever want to purchase is purchasable with Bitcoin.

Assuming Bitcoin appreciation, there is no reason to say that "fiat should be used for more routine purchases".  Why would you say that?  What makes fiat better for routine purposes than Bitcoin?  The fact that Bitcoin can appreciate, so you might be missing out on appreciation because you spent it?  Ok, so why not have all of your money in Bitcoin and just use it as needed?  Then, at least you can enjoy short-term appreciation until the Bitcoin is spent.

Putting all of that aside, the implied argument that you seem to be making is that people won't spend an appreciating currency.  That's easily proven false in two ways:

1)  Computers/technology.  People could wait until next year to get an even better, faster computer with more features for the same price.  Yet they buy computers today.  How can you explain that when their purchasing power is increasing over time?  Obviously, increasing purchasing power does not discourage people from buying pieces of technology.

2)  Investments/stocks.  Anyone can easily increase their purchasing power over time by investing into stocks, mutual funds, real estate, etc.  Yet, many choose not to.  How can you explain the fact that people are buying ANYTHING beyond what is absolutely necessary to survive when they could instead be increasing their purchasing power by investment?

The whole argument that people won't spend an appreciating currency sounds great on the surface, but is really just a complete fallacy.

Agreed assuming appreciation...and if Bitcoin depreciates short term (relative to fiat)?  To be clear--I'm not saying people won't spend an appreciating currency...I'm saying that the evidence is suggesting that they're not spending an appreciating currency.  If you haven't already, take a moment to read this article linked in OP: Bitcoin's Failed Coup of Wall Street

Not taking any hard stance here btw.  The point is to spark discussion from experts and everyday users alike to address a very real concern held and raised by many.  We can all agree that it's a new world order...Bitcoin is unlike anything anyone has ever seen, so perspective is important.  I'd like to see evidence, hard evidence suggesting that people are not hoarding their BTC.  SHOW ME, don't tell me that it's a fallacy that people won't spend an appreciating currency...numbers, charts, graphs, maths, trends, facts.  Need more than Bitcoin bias...of which I already have plenty myself.  I'd love nothing more...

[harles9]

Groceries for me are typically bought in little spurts, in which case, an average bill is probably $6.
Not enough to justify using Bitcoins, so in the current market, cash makes most sense for buying petty groceries, IMO.

[AliceWonder]

I use USD currently but I'd prefer to use QRK.

The problem with BTC is I like to keep my mobile wallet empty, and load it when I'm planning to use it. So if I'm going to be shopping at more than one store, will the change be confirmed and spendable after the first merchant?

Typically yet, but not always. With QRK - 3 min confirms is extremely rare. So I don't have to worry about strategic partitioning of outputs when filling my phone for shopping to make sure a lengthy block doesn't limit change confirmation, I can send it all as a single output.

[AliceWonder]

You're still not getting it.  If BTC is GUARANTEED to appreciate compared to fiat

Guaranteed by who?