Bitcoin Forum

Hello Bitcoiners,
 
I see that people invest in IBB, which stands for Islamic Bitcoin Bank. I think it is the most hypocritical use of bitcoin. Allow me to explain. 
 
Islam, just as any religion (Christianity or Judaism) it is evil at the core of its philosophy. However, Islam is the religion today that takes itself into the government of Iran, which puts guns in the hands of these religious people. If they didn't have guns, their philosophy will only hurt themselves, since it is irrational and has no semblance to reality (example: independence of thinking is bad, sex is bad, etc). So as a person protecting freedom, I'm voting for a war against Iran, to dissolve the religious government. 
 
Bitcoiners talk a lot of free enterprise and freedom, and unrestrained capitalism.  Iran, all the Muslim countries that are sympathetic to Iran, are not for free enterprise. They are today what Soviet Union was before it crashed.
 
Islam is not the only religion that took itself into the government. The most recent example is Shinto religion in Japan. After USA bombed Japan and it capitulated, USA told Japan that they can continue with Shinto, as long as it is separate of government.   
 
I'd hate to see those who are fighting for freedom to be misinformed about the real cost of religion to this civilization. To find out more information about it and form your own opinion about this topic I recommend the following:
 
Milton Friedman's series on Capitalism:
http://www.freetochoose.tv/
 
Interview with Reza Khalili, an ex-CIA spy (Iranian double agent)
http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2011-summer/reza-kahlili.asp
 
“Just War Theory” vs. American Self-Defense
http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2006-spring/just-war-theory.asp
 
Richard Dawkins -- anything
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMqTEfeqvmM
 
Ayn-Rand -- Capitalism the Unknown Ideal
http://www.amazon.com/Capitalism-Unknown-Ideal-Ayn-Rand/dp/0451147952
 
I know what you are going to say, that whole purpose of bitcoin is to let people do with it whatever they want.  That is true, I'm just giving you information that you may not seen.  There is a lot of propaganda on both sides of the issue, and the only way to know who is right is to check your basic premises (knowledge).
 
If you are supporting Palestine, and that is your biggest motivation, here is a debate about it:
http://www.debate.org/debates/Israel-is-justified-in-attacking-gaza/2/
 
Our biggest problem today is not the absence of laissez-faire capitalism in USA and the world.  Govt controls, and taxes is a symptom of the root sickness which is wrong assumptions about philosophy.  It is a lot of work to untangle the mess we are in today, but if you see a hungry child in Africa or Gazza, or in a poor area of USA, and you want to help -- you have to understand the cause of the problem, to solve it.  It is like if you find a bug in your code, you want to understand it, rather than adding a special case "if" at the point where it crashes.
 
I hope that bitcoin will not be used to promote religion, or socialism, or altruism.  If you think I'm crazy for saying that, please make sure that you are familiar with the links I posted.

I know that there people who are very strongly subscribe to the Islamic dogma, and who get just as strongly offeneded if they hear anything against it. I'm sorry to offend you, but this is the truth.
 
Boris
 
 

Your clueless.

Freedom is freedom.  Even the freedom for other "scary people" to do things you disagree with.

If you think religion is bad you convince people of that fact.  If you can't then your freedom doesn't extend to forcing them to stop.  It is a pretty simple concept.  Compelling a change from the barrel of a gun isn't freedom.


LOLZ.   Let me guess it won't be you that goes over there and comes back in a body bag right?  Just someone else.  I was that "someone else" in the US last grand crusade.  Tell you what you enlist, infantry, and THEN advocate for a war with Iran knowing you will be on the front lines and your words may be more than just hypocritical nonsense.

Paragraphed:
"I believe in this strongly enough to get other people killed over it.  Yes people may die but that is a sacrifice I prepared to make." - frisco2


Bitcoin is a currency.  It has no moral compass.  Even if we accept your premise that Islam is evil, Bitcoin has (or eventually will if successful enough) be used to fund/promote just about every evil thing imaginable.  Violence, hate speech, human slavery, racial violence, child prostitution, terrorism, , organized crime, religious wars, drug cartels, hate crimes,illegal weapons sales, ransoms, piracy, etc.  You name it if it is evil Bitcoin will eventually fund it.

Of course so has dollars.


I am not a Muslim and you don't offend me.  You are just an idiot.

Islam is not evil and the IBB rocks big time.  I'm a Pastafarian but the CEO of the IBB is one of the nicest and best people I've met in the bitcoin community.

The OP is completely clueless.

As Senbonzakura from IBB will certainly tell you, the mission of the IBB is to be in line with the principles of Sharia, that means free of usury.
IMO a very noble mission, and I certainly can support that.

As for religion invading the government: Don't make me laugh; just look at the current US presidential race, how some candidates pushing religious beliefs more than anything else? So who's a hypocrite?

OP, your opinions are so misguided... go read a few up from a few un-bias sources :)

Brace for impact.

Sharia law is very similar to Christianity before the renaissance.  The only part I really dislike is woman covering the faces I don't mind them covering the body's and heads just not faces. 

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2272/naughtymemeskidstheseda.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/198/naughtymemeskidstheseda.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Yes, requiring women to do that seems odd to me too.

Then even for the US, I was surprised to hear is that there's a discussion going on whether women should be admitted to the Augusta National Golf Club, and I thought to myself, wow we really need to catch up, it's the 21st century!

Also for you Christians and Jews Islam is a religion of the book meaning it follows and believes the old testament highly they even believe Jesus was a prophet.  Although we all know Jesus was the son of god but the Flying Spaghetti Monstor made god so I worship the FSM  :D   

I'm not stopping anyone by force of using IBB.  Go ahead, use IBB. I will make sure my bitcoins will not end up there, and my post is the explanation why.

I disagree with you, therefore I wrote my post. Being able to write what I wrote is one of the meanings of freedom to me.

Sharia, is exactly, the evil merge of religion and govt. It is a conquering theology, that attempts to dominate the whole world by force and majority voting.

But in thruth, no religion was able to contain itself -- it wants to spread by its definition. That is why it is so dangerous.  From Christian crusades, to the Inquisition, to Hugenots, and finally to Sharia.

Saying that financing evil is a necessity of a free currency is orthogonal to my position. I am saying that although it is technically possible, and maybe some people do it, you, the reader, shouldn't do it for the reasons I have outlined.

I am also not saying the the CEO of IBB is a not a nice guy.  Many people are good people, but they do bad things without realizing it. We are born into the world with a baggage of culture that is fed into us by the social system in which we grow.  Read 1984 by George Orwell, about how hard it is to contradict.  Many people grow up with a several conflicting views in their head, that they don't know how to balance. For example, the concept of God and the story in the Holy Books, and science.  They invent a kludge to keep them in their head without conflicitng, rather than choosing the Occam's Razor.

troll thread detected.

I support IBB.

It all depends on your interpretation of Sharia just like some Christians won't eat meat on Good Friday and Roman Catholics won't eat meat every Friday this stems from the tradition you should fast every Friday to show devotion to Jesus.

+1

You will also find real socialists (see this for a definition of socialism - http://www.worldsocialism.org/articles/what_is_socialism.php (http://www.worldsocialism.org/articles/what_is_socialism.php) -[not neo-librel Democrats or (centre)left wing politics]) and most reasonable people are sympathetic to Iran and especially Palestinians.  Also BTW the USSR wasn't socialism that was state capitalism.

you can't argue with OP, he a brainwashed confused child.

Also as a Pastafrian I and the rest of humanity have a LOT to thank Arabs and Islam for!  They kept science alive during the dark ages none of the ancient Greek texts wouldn't have been kept if it wasn't for Arabs/Islam.  Every word that starts with "Al" is an Arabic invention "Algebra, Algorithm, Alcohol"  Also the numbers we use were invented by the Arabs - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_numerals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_numerals) - If it wasn't for them we would still be using Roman Numerals (but we have Hindu's/Indians to thank for the number zero).

Hey, that's almost like Bitcoin! Just if you look closer, religion doesn't allow for the >50% decision (I guess that's where the force part comes in...).

http://www.drsukhi.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/World-Domination-Summit-300x189.jpg

+1 that, although the OP lost me much earlier...

Matthew: USSR was socialism/communism.  USA before creation of the Federal Reserve system was capitalism. Today under Obama it is more socialism. Nazism was socialism. (Hitler's party was the National Worker's Union).  You have many concepts confused.  Socialism is evil as well, but Sharia is militant and Socialism is philosophically evil. Left or right, democrats or republicans -- their title doesn't matter. What matters is what they say, and what they stand for in their actions.

To others -- I have stated my postiion and will not debate further in this forum -- the information is out there in the links I posted, and you can debate there on each of those points. My point of posting it here was pertaining to bitcoin and the hypocrisy of such a use: defending freedom and financing murder is a contradiction.

The sword of truth is certainly sharper than the dagger of ignorance, but how can you be sure which you hold?  Do you want to risk slipping when you cut if your tool is subpar?

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Yet you attack such hypocrisy by supporting war against a populace.  Sure, the government may lose power, but the populace loses lives.  Who are you trying to free here?

Islam is the worlds fastest growing religion the OP is obliviously afraid of that and that's why he is sprouting out Islamaphobia.  No I don't want to live under Sharia law (like my foreskin, beer and bacon butties too much) or see woman walking round in burqa's tho I don't mind the hijab tho food from the Muslim countries from North Africa to India is the best even better than Italian food and they make the best hashish  ;D

First socialism is not equal communism.

Second, I was just waiting when you would call upon Godwin's law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law), and here it is!
Wow on the second page, that was fast!

This is off-topic but if you read this guide on "What is Socialism" - http://www.worldsocialism.org/articles/what_is_socialism.php (http://www.worldsocialism.org/articles/what_is_socialism.php) you will see the USSR was not socialism and the political party who wrote that guide was around before the creation of the USSR.  Yes the Nazi's was "National Socialism" again if you read that guide and Karl Marx's works you will find "National Socialism" is an abomination!

Edit:  The Democrat Party are "Neo-Liberals" very different and far removed from socialism. 

If OP is right, and it is a philosophical blunder, then he should have nothing to fear.  Such things will work themselves out.  It will not take over unless you prove it right by constantly attacking it.  Islam teaches one how to draw strength from such attacks, as many philosophies do.

I should know better than to reply to a post like this, but...

Religion does suck big huge donkey eggs, but please go take a look at the ~actual~ ~actions~ of Senbonzakura and IBB.

They have done nothing even close to harmful to anybody (well except maybe unknowingly being an enabler to rexcoin).

In fact, they have done a lot of good things; they have helped several community projects get off the ground and promoted the actual use of bitcoin.

While I can't disagree with you about the harm religion causes, IBB is not a religion, it is a small bitcoin community organization that has been a great and active member of this community. I'll also add, I've noticed that while Senbonzakura won't get IBB involved with something he doesn't feel is right, such as interest payments or gambling, he is more tolerant of other folks doing what they will than several other folks here.

+1

A man goes around helping, rather than hurting people, and it's somehow a problem? Because he chooses to do so because he believes it is morally obligatory to act this way?

No...I just don't see it. Senbonzakura's actions speak loudly of the type of person he is. A religion, or lack of one, doesn't make a man good or evil - it is only truly how he acts in life that does this.

When you show me that he is doing wrong, or that the IBB is doing wrong, then I may listen. As soon as you attack his beliefs, I will do as I will now - put you on the iggy list ;D I definitely don't have time to see more of this garbage in life.

There is lots and lots of trolling on this forum its one of the reasons "bitcoin.org" stopped linking to it.

Dude, IBB gives interest free loans.  Investing in it has nothing to do with your beliefs or ideals, its all about rates of return and available funding.  Bitcoin is all about free market capitalism and if IBB wants a religious religious correlation to be draw between their name and a set of ideals, who cares.  Its all about bringing home the bacon.

There is logic in your argument, however, you are missing one thing - restriction of human rights under Sharia.

IBB's money comes from Islamic religion and Sharia -- they promote it openly. Sharia in turn, coupled with government protection, is a totalitarian regime that puts a gun to people's head to force them to do certain things. So the product of their labor is not an output of a free market. And therefore, your argument does not apply.
 
To illustrate this point more dramatically imagine that I trick people to come to an island for a big opportunity. Once they arrive they find out that there is a factory that makes iPhones. I don't let them leave the island and I shoot anyone who tries to escape. I have food and shelter for them, but I will not pay them anything, and they are forced to work for me as slaves.   Suppose food and shelter for these people costs me $1/day, while their labor in a free world would actually cost $100/day.  The cost to make an iPhone would be $10 for me, while perhaps the cost to make an iPhone in regular conditions is 10 times as much. Of course I will be able to make a huge profit on those iPhones, so big that I will be able to give attractive loans.  I will also use excess money to create a philosophy in which the slaves will not think of themselves as slaves, but more as those fighting for a higher cause -- a religion called Xyz, that demands 1 year of forced labor in order to achieve 1 year of bliss after death.  People who will call me a liar I will label as confused souls that need forced guidance. I will advertise this philosophy as a new solace to happiness.
 
This example is not as far fetched as you might think.  You can watch the movie "East-West" about a call to expat Russians to return to Soviet Union, under Stalin. They couldn't leave Russia afterwards, and were forced to work at a tenth of their income they would have in Western Europe, as well as, to live at one tenth the standard of life.

This kind of thing happens all over the place, in history, and even today.  Forced-labour of people who are in jail (because they are against the government), cheap labor in China because of Govt import/export taxes and emmigration restrictions (Red China), tricking girls into prostitution (Zwi Migdal), and your plane old slavery.  In fact, just by going through history, we can find the same kind of conflicts that exist today.
 
It is true that you can leave Iran today, although I imagine the process is not simple. But by the time you grow up to be an adult to make such a decision, you have already been taught about the world through the lens of Islam and Sharia.  Even if you wanted to have an independent opinion during your childhood or teens, you couldn't have -- just try to say openly there something against Islam. You would be be torn to pieces.   
 
The same was happening in Russia. People were afraid to say something in their kitchen that is against the government. The walls had ears. Also, when there was a parade, everyone had to come out -- if you don't, people will report you.  After Stalin was dead, people finally started to speak, still very slowly.
 
In order to have a free market, people must be free to do for work whatever they want, and where they want.  If they want to create a travel agency for American girls in mini-skirts to visit Tehran, they should be free to do so. And citizens of Tehran should be free to look at those girls, at the risk of loosing some friends (but not their heads).
 
This point of view comes naturally if you understand the source of human rights. Why do I think I have a right to start such a travel agency ? The answer is here:
 
http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2011-fall/ayn-rand-theory-rights.asp

So anyhoo, I forgot to tell sen I sent BDK's March donation (.15B) to IBB a few days ago (but I'm sure he'll read this thread). I think I've been telling him this every month since I started donating, but next month (payment for month of May), it'll finally be significant. After reading this thread and the ridiculous thread seeking lendees who have no religious beliefs (less Atheism) nor are socialistic/altruistic, I'd also like to state intent to donate 5BTC extra on top of this month's donation (to be paid on May 1st).


Cheers,

Rabble-rousing ethnically-Jewish "hard" agnostic. (please assume all use of "is" means "imagined to be," and interpret commands as something imagined by an entity which may or may not exist [not that I'm admitting that is a known unknown!])

You people are un fucking real lol wow

A very good article dated two days ago:

http://ruleofreason.blogspot.ca/2012/04/many-appetites-for-cruelty.html

Finally, there is a forum, as active as the bitcoin one, where philosophical ideas are discussed:

http://forum.objectivismonline.com/

Hey, Atlas, it's been some time since you were this active.

Hey OP,

You're an idiot.

I can't believe you don't realize that freedom is NOT conditional, and that's why it's fucking freedom.  You can't fight for freedom or protect it, you evolutionary dead end.  

And that's just one of the absurd assumptions in your post.

And OP,

Despite your jabbering and rambling about violence and supporting violence, IBB has done nothing at all to promote or encourage or perform or support violence. So save your wrath for someone who has crossed that line. It bothers me that you treat him as if he has harmed anyone or coerced or defrauded anyone in any way, when there are ZERO people making such claims other than you.

Tell us what he did and when and to whom. "He gets his money from eeeevil Sharia/Islamic activities" is no where near a concrete allegation. Who did IBB hurt? When? Don't make me drag this thing out but rounding up the the dozens of people and projects IBB has helped and the good that came out of that.

You mention shooting people and slavery and forced prostitution. Come on! That is so ridiculous and you have absolutely nothing that links the actions or attitudes of IBB to anything even close to that. IBB's goal appears to be to provide small interest-free loans to people who can be helped by them, and also to support and provide hosting, capital, and other resources for new bootstrapped bitcoin businesses.

Just stop this nonsense.

frisco, frisco frisco... as if the "let's create a tool to link people to their bitcoin transactions" brain-fart wasn't enough, now you want to put on your Pretty Princess Troll Suit and start throwing a tantrum for attention?

Ok- you are an utter cretin. The only argument worse that citing youtube videos and agit-prop websites is that whole "I don't know fuck-all anything about political theory, so I throw out all the big scary words I read somewhere" premature ejaculation of a post you made 5 or 6 up from here.

A couple of very short lessons for you to suck on for a while before you disgrace yourself again:

The nazi party was the Nationalsozialismus movement (National Socialism) which had nothing to do with unions or workers, they actually killed a lot of union organizers and working class folks.

The USSR was neither socialist nor truly communist, despite their mad labeling skillz- it was more of an autocratic dictatorship of a very limited privileged class (the nomenklatura) who used the trappings of Marxist/Leninist philosophy to justify overthrowing a monarchy, and installing their own gang-rape of an exploitative system. Once we hit Stalin, the whole "workers soviet" concept was tossed in favor of a power structure that responded only to the diseased whims of a syphilitic sociopath.

Wars suck. Wars supported by assholes who want to wrap themselves in the false coat of human rights and goodness as a way to free oppressed people suck even harder. You destroy any hope of credibility your point of view could hope for when you advocate for war, without having seen it from the inside. If you had you would not advocate for it, it is not the answer. You want regime change in Iran, march your happy ass over there with 30 or 40 kilos of Semtex strapped to your belly and give Achmidinijihad an embrace he will remember for the remaining nano-seconds of his life. Don't look for others to take action for you, man up and act.

And, your weird ass example about your slave island? WTF? You should invest in a reason for saying dumb shit, not just saying it. Support your argument, don't just say ridiculous things. We have the original atlas and his many personalities for that if we need existential masturbation, your stuff isn't even legible. How you made the leap from your island of slave-girl Apple employees to the IBB and it's fundamental operating principle of banking under Sharia law is just strange and meaningless.

As much I hate IBB founder and all religions altogether... I don't agree with most of OP.

I wish one could take those good principles of sharia (investment related) and keep the weird religious stuff to where it belong.

One can see the Haram part of Sharia_investments  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_investments)
as an outdated version of PayPal Acceptable Use Policy (https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/AcceptableUse_full)

It's not like we have to limit ourselves due to a prior art / copyright.

Bitcoin is just a tool for trade. There is no built in morality into the tool,just like with all other tools.The interest free loans from IBB is in accordance to the religion's (Islam) idea that you can't make money with money (or words to that effect)

I like Bitcoin as it's a tool that lets me expand and extend my ability to trade to more people beyond the real world like PayPal, GBP,USD,etc.

I pesonally see this as just another tool/currency to do business with. The only time I'd be concerned is, if my money is funding poor practices in factories overseas (poor working conditions) and the like to make my smartphone/tablet,then I'll choose to spend my money elsewhere to a more ethical company. Do remember that Bitcoin itself and all money in general has no moral compass.

I agree.  Its just like cash.  Some snort coke with it, some donate it to the red cross, others buy missles.

What about us Red Cross volunteers who like to snort coke while missile shopping? Can we be evil too?

hahahaha, that put me in a better mood I must admit

IBB is about Islamic banking regulations and practices.. so no interest loans, no usurous paper currency, ect.
If all our banks used the same practice none of our countries would be broke right now from epic subprime speculation fallout. If Raelians offered the same benefits as Islamic Banking Sharia law and had a thousand years history of operating sucessfully I'd use their bank too.

Zer0 -- usury gave us civilization. Look at my comments on the thread titled "usury = not cool".

Variable: yes but I wouldn't invest in a mafia , even if it give back high returns. Tim thinking about the long run -- oppression.

One interesting thing is, that this concept is in the scripture of the Bible too, but has been conveniently left out in our culture.
http://realcurrencies.wordpress.com/2012/04/17/the-scourge-of-usury/ (http://realcurrencies.wordpress.com/2012/04/17/the-scourge-of-usury/)
Instead we cover up any guilt by charity or just going agnostic and rationalize it away.

it was America's own fault, they should not have fucked around in the middle east, and then their buildings would still stand.
im not saying that im happy for 9/11, it was a grusome attack.
but it's just stupid fucking around, and making people angry, and expecting that it doesn't come back to you at some point.

Actually, it was said that the kitchen was the one place where people could speak freely. It was in public where you had to keep your opinions completely quiet.

About religions, it's true that they are the cause of much suffering, but they were often an improvement on what came before. The prophets brought new laws, new ways for humans to regard their relationships to one another. If the people saw that the new laws were better than what they had, they converted.

Sometimes conversions were forced, but those were not genuine conversions; the victims just pretended to convert to keep the threatening maniacs happy. Religions can only spread far and wide if there are many genuine converts, who really do see something better than what they had before.

And the prophets who brought the new laws marked significant points in human development. The transitions from human sacrifice to no human sacrifice and from eye-for-an-eye to forgiveness of sin and love-thy-neighbor, as well as the prohibitions of slavery and usury were religious developments that improved humanity.

You might say that it was religion which put the human sacrifice, eye-for-an-eye and slavery there to begin with. True, but there was nothing else available. Early modern humans who had to find a way to understand what was happening did the best they could, and produced the religions to represent their understanding of humanity and its relationship to consciousness, death and the material world. If you took away their religion, there wouldn't be a better alternative for them to default to. There wasn't a better law that came before. The state of humanity before was worse; humans were more lawless and cruel.

I'm an atheist but I can see that religion isn't just an evil monstrosity which humanity would be better off without. It's a part of human culture, a process through which humans consider their relationship to the cosmos and conceive of moral and legal principles which can elevate them above their failings as selfish and finite beings.

Why Iran? Its one of the few countries in the region where women actually have rights, where there is at least  some limited form of democracy and freedom of press and expression. And yes, Im quite aware of how limited those are, but if you are insane enough to start a war because you dont like how other people run their own country, at least start with Saudi Arabia or Qatar. Compared to those, Iran is almost a secular model democracy.

Saudi Arabia and Qatar accept dollars for oil. No need for regime change there.

It doesn't make any sense to say that religion is evil, does it?  I mean, if you don't believe in God, then you don't believe in the devil either.

Anyway, I am atheist and I think religion sucks indeed.  Mainly because it is pretty much not compatible with scientific knowledge.  It's obvious when talking about biology and evolution with a religious person, and particularly with a muslim.  But if you don't want everyone to fight one another, you gotta learn tolerance.

About this islamic bitcoin bank, I don't know much about it and maybe it rocks.  Yet I would propbably not do business with these people unless they get rid of the "islamic" reference in the name.  I don't know what's the point anyway, since I guess this word just mean that they don't lend money with interest, which is fine but doesn't need to be refered to "islamic" to exist.

On the 9/11 thing, the attacks had nothing to do with religion but the american government has wrapped it up and presented it to you in such a way that it seems to be all about a hateful religion. The official story they sold was that the "moslems" attacked america because they hate your freedom, what a load of bullshit that is. America was attacked because of its oppressive foreign policy, you can't keep poking a lion and expect not to get bit. I'm not trying to justify the attacks, the act was wrong but america isn't totally innocent. Most Americans were gullible enough to fall for the"Muslims hate our freedom" propaganda that they went ahead and invaded a country that had nothing to do with anything and killed allot more innocent civilians than "terrorists" have.


Now about your post, you mention Iran quite allot. Let me make it clear right now that Iran is not a Muslim country!

Good post, 9/11 is really hard to discuss, while it was a terrible act of terrorism, it's almost like invoking Godwin's law when brought up in a discussion. Personally I think it was a unforgivable act of American officials to attack a country as a whole for a terrorist act.  Just think about it, if there's say a group of fundamental terrorists in another western country attacking a target in the USA, the US would most certainly not start a religious war against that country but try to persuade the government of said country to assist in finding those responsible of the acts of terrorism.

But how is Iran not an Islamic country?


I understand the subtle difference between Islam as a religion and Muslim as a follower of said religion, but what specifically are you referring to that makes Iran not an Islamic country?

And how is this all related to IBB anyways?

I said it before, I support non-usurious financial practices, so I think senbonzakura deserves our encouragement, and I also said it before, even the Bible has these elements in it verbatim, but that's the part that Christianity never took that serious, I guess.

Yeah, they have their share in human progress.  Yet, I wonder why we keep calling these civilisation "islamic", because islam is very much less about science than about stoning adulterous women, cuting hands and raising your bottom five times a day.

And yes, islam has a probem with science:  evolution.  You may not think the world is 6000 years, yet you still refuse to admit that the human species is one species amongst many others, and that it evolves with other mammals from a common ancestor.   Every time I talked with a muslim, they always confirmed me this impression.

Why don't you talk about "arabic" civilisation instead of "islamic" ??

To me, keeping talking about islamic science is just as silly as talking about christian science when talking about Galileo, Newton, electromagnetism, electronics, thermodynamics, quantum mechanics, relativity, and so on.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt there is any sourate in the Coran encouraging young people to learn science and to understand nature.  Coran just want them to learn Coran.  And if there is something in science that contradicts Coran, then Coran says that Coran is right.  Because it is the book of God so it is true and you just can't discuss it.  How silly is this, seriously?

Sience has nothing to do with religion.  Without islam, people who invented algebra would probably have invented it anyway.  There is no reason why schools and libraries you are talking about could not have been built in a non-islamic arabic world.

What do you mean by we are taking over all of bitcoin ?

senbonzakura has a good point, while the arab world created math, science etcetc, the christian world was busy burning witches and launching crusades and slaughtering thousands of people. All in name of god of course.

Yeah but were they really all muslims at this time ??

I mean, it's not like all the arab population, including greatest minds, became muslim as soon as the prophet appeared.

Another good question. I suppose not, it was just an arab territory, of course not everyone was a religious person.

At least in the US, ppl are getting dumber.

Makes me want to go live on a deserted island.

The Twelver shia sect has actually introduced so many new practices and has deviated from the original practices to the extent that it is not really Islam, It's kind of like a separate religion.

Long live free society, viva la bitcoin. Give the money/power to the people.

I think the Zoroastrian Religion is the oldest and Sexagesimal pre-dates arabic-indo numbering system.

Oldest practised recorded religion.   Sexagesimal base60 (1-60) arabic-indo base10 ( 1 - 10)

http://www3.sympatico.ca/zoroastrian/zoroas.jpg

I <3 IBB

That makes no sense. Theories is just about the only thing science has to offer. Maybe you meant to say hypothesis instead?
In science once a hypothesis is tested and validated, it becomes a theory. It doesnt get much better than a theory. Gravity is a theory, not a scientific fact. Scientific facts dont attempt to explain anything, a fact is little more than a repeatable observation. Believing only in scientific facts, is like only believing what you see, but not trying to understand what it is you see. You need theories to explain that.

Indeed, scientific "fact" according to who? If they call it fact they are either a crappy scientist, bad/lazy at explaining things, or not a scientist. That's the whole point...

Yeah right.  When someone shows you a book supposedly written by a prophet of God you just accept it without discussion.  And yet when someone gives you a materialist explanation of why life is so diverse and how it evolves, you just reject it and ask for "facts" because you think a weird explanation such as "it's just that God made it so" is better (although it doesn't explain anything: it just gives a name "God" to the explanation).

Science is full of theories about how things work and I'm pretty sure you accept them without so-called "facts", because you know they make sense and do not hurt your religious belief:  you may accept plate tectonics and yet you will never ever in your life see a continent move with you own eyes.  But I guess plate tectonics does not hurt your feelings.

Then call those civilisations persian when they are persian and arab when they are arabs.  Western cultures come from roman and greek civlisations but usually we call them just romans even if we're talking about people who where living very far from Rome.  Anyway we do not use the roman religion to name them.  We don't say that the western culture comes from the civilisation of Zeus.


Just get rid of this stupid book and you'll do even better in learning nature.  It's a waste of time for the mind to read and accept a book just because it is "revelated".  It is contrary to scientific method to accept an ad-hoc idea just per se, as a dogma.  This is the main reason why religion is very little compatible with science: it diffuses the idea that it is acceptable to use autorithy and blind faith to determin whether something is true or false.

You can talk however long you want about how great were some muslim scientists.  There is no point as I will not deny that some of them made great discoveries indeed.  Yet I may ask why then your great God didn't gave more hints about science to your prophet and put them in the Coran.  Why didn't he write the equations of Maxwell, the list of the elements and the axioms of quantum mechanics for instance?  All this could have been written on one or two pages.  Yet it seems your God wanted all this to be discovered by non-muslims, and he wanted the people he chose to be quite limited to maths, astronomy and medecine, and still to be over-powered by non muslims in these fields anyway.  Go figure!
 
This is BS, seriously.  I've seen some documentaries about madrassas, islamic schools, where young chidren were spending their all day long learning the Coran by heart during years.  How on earth do you want such kids to learn anything about nature?

In the arabic world, in the persian world or whatever makes what we currently call the "islamic" world, there were great scientific discoveries that were made.   Yes, but it is true also before that in the greeko-roman world (which arabs transmitted the legacy to us, thanks for that!), and also in India and probably in other civilisations I do not know about.  Those civilisations had religions two, damned it!  And yet we never insist on using the name of these religions to qualify them, as you keep on trying to do.

+1 grondilu

Those scientists that were religious, be it Islam or Christianity (Newton, Pascal, Leibniz), were so because of their time and culture around them. Moreover, I bet they believed in God = nature, like Spinoza, rather than faith into teachings of a particular book.

For the record, Omar Khayam, a great arab poet and mathematician, whose work in both fields is still popular today, was speaking against religion.

http://www.nndb.com/people/043/000031947/

IBB is not going to have significant influence nor power for very basic reasons.

I don't see what we should worry about.

why are you using fancy colors? it hurts my eyes!

The Semitic religions are a curse on all humanity. The use of supernaturalism to manipulate and control people is the world's oldest confidence scheme, it relies on the ritual abuse of children at their most impressionable stage by adults who have themselves been made childish for life by these artifacts of the primitive mind.

Subsidize this sickness? Better to cut off its air supply completely.

You're the fisrt muslim I ever encounter who supports evolution.

Maybe I'm wrong about muslims and they are not as obscurantists as I thought.  I still whish you were not refering to islam with everything you do, though.  Including banking and bitcoins.

Two days ago in Italy they arrested a person who converted to Islam and was planning an attack on the synagogue of Milan
Then they found a group of people recently converted to Islam that were contacting Al Quaeda and other terrorist organizations and organizing trainings in places like Iraq, Pakistan or Afghanistan
http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/04/23/209705.html
http://www.myfoxny.com/story/17656009/italian-police-arrest-muslim-convert-over-terror-plot

While Breivik was a catholic fundamentalist.

I love 3 of those links you posted, but it's amazing that I don't share your views at all. Not even a little bit.

To paraphrase Ayn Rand: "There are no contradictions in reality, only bad premises".  Either you are not thinking logically, or we have different premises.  My premise that a man has a basic right to act as he wishes, as long as doesn't interfere with property rights of others. In the case of Sharia prohibiting a girl to wear skirt (at the punishment of death), it is an infringement on basic rights, because she

- doesn't interfere with property rights of others
- acts according to her idea.

Same goes for adultery, sleeping around. It is a personal choice of individual of what they want to do with their body.

As well, Sharia doesn't permit anyone to question it. It prohibits freedom of speech in your own media.  I can't have my own news paper and market it on the street. I would be thrown in jail a disruptor of peace.

Im not religious at all, OP is an ignorant troll..

The Ayn Rand ref's say everything you need to know about OP..   

OP should hook up with Atlas and marry each other...








Sen, keep fighting the good fight my brother! :D

Don't worry I don't force you about anything.  I'm telling you that there are some people who will not consider iyou seriously as long as you put religious references in your economic activities.

Atheists don't like superstitions and would not want to have business with a "astrological bank of bitcoins", "christian bank of bitcoin" or "pastafaric bank of bitcoin".


PS.  I understand though that such a name has probably a good appeal for muslim people.  And there are quite a lot of muslims in this world so I guess from a marketing point of view your name is a good strategy.

I thought the OP's post made an interesting read and I thank him for posting something thought provoking. Although, I don't agree that religion is evil. Evil only exists if there is a God. Otherwise evil is just choices you don't agree with. True evil is a supernatural concept that assumes there is an absolute and objective good.
 

just love your BLACK-OR-WHITE logic.

Good one. The correct answer is the second.

They didn't create math and science, they contributed to math and science. And coined many names, like Algebra. Math has a much older history, inlcluding Egypt, Babylon, and India. But the greatest role was in math and science was played by ancient Greece long before Christianity or Islam.

While Christians were doing all these cruel acts, Muslims were also busy stoning adulterous women to death, and killing the unfaithful. Leaving Islam is punishable by death. As for the crusades, read history, it started as defense against muslim conquests, not the other way around. Sure in their conquests the Muslims didn't kill Christians or Jews, especially the monks/clergy, because they are considered people of the book. But pagans/heathens were killed or taken as slaves. Girls were also kidnapped for harems.

An even today in the Islamic world women are stoned to death for adultery. And people killed for witchcraft, heresy, or atheism.

People should read more history.

I just readed the initial post and I am really angry of what I am reading. You are really one-sided and you are realy taking out of your hat here

Evil is defined not in the context of religion or atheism, but in the context of moral code.  For example, for me, whose moral code is the recognition of basic human rights, which are (a) a right to private property, and (b) the right to purse an objective as long as I don't hurt right (a) of other people --- Sharia is evil, because it does not allow me to do so.

For another person, whose moral code is such that his individual aspirations go second to the ones of the community, obviously, whatever system the community uses will be good.  So if the community decides to hang a bunch of non-believers, that is considered ok.


To me logic is black and white. I don't follow "fuzzy" logic.  For example, what is the answer to the question: "is there a pink teapot floating in Earths orbit" ? The answer is "no".

The topic of this thread is not:  "should I do business with IBB?".    Neither it is "should anyone be forced to do business with them?".

We were discussing about religion and why it sucks, and that lead me to express my opinion about IBB.  Now I can understand you don't like it but it is not because I don't have to use it that I won't express my opinion about it on the dedicated thread.

BLACK-OR-WHITE logic is used in math. you can't use math in the real world(and i love math btw.).
the world is not black and white, it also have the colors green, yellow, and gray.

btw. how did you know about the teapot? have you seen it? have you any conclusive proof that it does not exist? your answer is incorrect, "no" is not the answer. the correct answer is "i don't know".

you see there is "i don't know"-answers in math. yet-to-proven/disproven theorems for example.
In computer science, you can also prove, that its impossible to prove/disprove something(like the halting problem).

conclusion: B-OR-W logic sucks. and can not always be applied to the real world, or even the math/science-world.

There is no tea-pot orbiting around Jupiter.  Neither there are any leprechauns or flying horses.

That's an application of Occam's razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor).

If you don't agree with that, then you just can't affirm anything and you are not religious, you're nihilist.  You might as well say that we don't know for sure if the sun is going to raise tomorow.  And without occam's razor, we don't.

Common sense tells you there is no tea-pot around Jupiter.  So it should tell you there is no omnipotent God anywhere, caring about human beings and violating physical laws from times to times to guide their life.

its only saying some thing about the likelihood for a teapot around Jupiter, you still don't have any conclusive proof.
my personal opinion about the teapot: "lol, there is no teapot"
the strictly logical conclusion about the teapot: "i don't know"
the agnostic view of the teapot: "i don't know, and it doesn't matter"

I don't know exactly what you mean by "strictly logic".  Logic is about applying a succession of axioms to a set of hypothesis in order to arrive to a conlusion.  If you add Occam's razor to the set of axioms, then there is no tea-pot orbiting around Jupiter.

Otherwise, from your "strictly logic" point of view, I don't know if Jupiter even exists as we know it, since I have never seen it through a telescope.  So to me it could just be an ordinary star.  Or a totally different planet.

Occam's razor allows me to affirm that all the photographs, descriptions and scientist studies about Jupiter are not lies, nor a huge international conspiracy against me, aimed at having me believe in a non-existent planet.

correct. but Occams razor, uses fuzzy-logic and use of it is determined by the user/scientist that uses it. -> two different persons could with the same set of facts(if there even exist such thing), come up with two different mutual-exclusive conclusions.
and it's therefor not "strictly" logically.

Only maths are strictly logical.   And I'm not the one who brought logic in this thread, anyway.

Occam's razzor is a logical principle.  It's not an axiom of Zermel-Fraenkel theory, for instance.  It doesn't have to be one of them to be widely accepted as logical principle.

If only mathematicians can have an opinion about the universe, then no wonder religion has so much success.

The name of the bank imply that it is somehow related to a religion (and not to the other) and so there is a god (but not zeus or odin or thor) wich is not exactly... convincing
Add to that all the problems that religion always create and then you see why i am not convinced at all by that "bank"

After all no one would trust a flying spaghetti monster bank!

Well if I need a loan I know what interest rate would pull me in.

->Implying a 0% interest bank exist. But oh there are other fees, their name is not interest but you still pay
No interest=you loan, the guy can't repay, you fail.

Just for the record - the concept of 'evil' is supernatural and as irrational as belief in God.
Human behaviour can always be explained, whether it's the behavior of psychopaths or Abu Ghraib guards (see the work of Phillip Zimbardo)

i always claim that im proof otherwise.

Only the owner of this forum can set the rules.   There is no such thing as freedom of speech. Instead, there is freedom to pursue an objective, as long as you don't impose of private property of others. For example, I can not submit an atheist essay to an Islamic newspaper  and expect it published.  The newspaper real estate belongs to the owner of the newspaper, and he sets the rules on his own property.

However, people express their opinions on this forum, saying that don't enjoy their experience (as a customer of the forum), because instead of it being about bitcoin, it is about promotion of  a religious dogma.  IBB makes a statement that zero percent loans are good for you not only financially, but morally, according to Sharia laws. Since the owner of the forum wants to keep his customers satisfied, he can enforce a policy on the site that is going to retain his customers. Also that policy would not go against his own moral convictions.

You are bringing into the mix a different meaning of color than the one we discuss. When we spoke about the world being Black-and-White, we didn't mean a physical color, but a two state property of logic called the "Law of Excluded Middle", meaning that there is no third state between true or false.  


There is a theory that all our knowledge about the world is developed in a black-and-white logic, in an incremental, hierarchical process.  This theory, developed by Ayn Rand, is called "The Objectivist Epistemology".


You don't have to prove any arbitrary statement is false. A person who claims it must prove it to you.  The position "I don't know" in reality is as good as "No".  To continue with the flying teapot example, if you are an engineer designing a satellite, you don't have to account for the teapot in your formulas.

The flying teapot and the concept of god is a fantasy, by definition, since it comes out of a mental construction. God was never observed by anyone.  There is nothing wrong with fantasy, just like there is nothing wrong in a fantastic dream. However, you are supposed to use the fantasy to develop an application to the real world. Not to declare that your fantasy is part of reality just because you have imagined it.  Your argument for the existence of god is: "I imagine it, therefore it exists". Or, "I and 6 billion people imagine it", therefore it exists.

And the worst thing you can do with fantasy, is to bring it into reality in a form of Law. Since fantasy does not require proof, you can think up any Law whatever, even if it contradicts another law. In particular, it could contradict the Laws defined by the objective, observable nature, the ones you can really prove -- the tendency of living beings to try to stay alive and enjoy life to the fullest potential of their biological ability, and do whatever they can to achieve it. Hence, for a tree it is to strive for sun light, for a lion it is a tendency to kill prey, and to a human it is to create. To "Live and Prosper" in the words of Spock.

The logical axiom that is the basis for bringing fantasy into reality is the concept that individual is less than a community. It probably came through observing ant colonies. Our armies model this system very closely.  However, this theory does not account the fact that a human is much more intelligent than an ant, and depending on the task, two humans can achieve more independently than working together.  A historical example is Edison and Tesla. If Tesla would have joined Edison, he would not have developed AC Power Transmission. This not to say that any form of cooperation is bad.  The cooperation of people to create a combined product from different pieces has worked very well, but only in the context of capitalism. This system allows every person to excel in doing of his little piece, since he is motivated to innovate.

yes, so anyway, because religion is bad, we should all boycott IBB.

including any islamic people who happen to use bitcoins.

because all muslims believe in islam.

and islam is a religion.

and religion is bad.

so ALL MUSLIMS ARE BAD.

or not.

yes.

However, to the statement "all muslims are bad" I will say that more precisely, the actions that they make whenever they are motivated through the muslim religion, are bad.  The reality is that many people are not completely evil, because (a) they don't really spend time to understand fully what they are doing, so this is ignorance=bliss situation. And (b) many people have several conflicting morals, thanks to our day and age, that sometimes they do good things too.

LoL  I don't "demand" you anything.  It would be too easy if I could have you forget about your superstitious beliefs by just asking.

I wish you were not using the word "islamic" in your banking business, just as I wish there were no more religion in this world.  This is not a request.  Merely a hope.

senbonzakura: what is the meaning and significance of your userpic ?

اِنَّ  الَّذِیۡنَ یَخۡشَوۡنَ رَبَّہُمۡ بِالۡغَیۡبِ لَہُمۡ مَّغۡفِرَۃٌ  وَّ  اَجۡرٌ  کَبِیۡرٌ ﴿۱۲﴾
 
Verily! Those who fear their Lord unseen (i.e. they do not see Him, nor His Punishment in the Hereafter, etc.), theirs will be forgiveness and a great reward (i.e. Paradise).

Surah : Al- Mulk (67:12)