Bitcoin Forum

Now that Rev3 Singles are going out in volume we're announcing the availability of our not so well kept secret, the 25gh/s Mini Rig.

What's a Mini Rig?

The Mini Rig is a half sized Rig Box which is based on technology used in the Singles.  It's a desktop computer sized enclosure with room for up to 24 processor cards.  The cards are identical to the Single's PCB, but they use next generation processors with a greater performance density and half the power consumption per unit of performance.

Here you can see an internal arrangement illustrating the modular nature of the device.

http://www.butterflylabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/iso-desktop-server.Color-Output1.png


How fast is it?

The base configuration of the Mini-Rig runs at 25gh/s while consuming only 1,250w which is less than an average clothes iron.  Speed, temperature and up time are displayed via an enclosure mounted LCD for easy monitoring.


How much do they cost?

The Mini Rig is $15,295 per unit.  That's 61 cents a mh/s which is the best in the industry.


How big is it?

The Mini Rig is proximately 1.4 feet by 10 inches in footprint.  It's 11 inches high.


What's the lead time?

Mini Rigs are custom built with a 12-15 week lead time.  Most of this is for foundry production of the processors and can be less but we have to quote the full time they may take.  We don't stock processors, so the lead time begins on the processing of each order.


Is there a warranty?

Mini Rigs are covered by a six month warranty against manufacture defect or component failure.  These are solid state devices which aren't overclocked or run hot to achieve their performance.  Reliability can be expected to be several orders of magnitude better than hard use GPU.


Orders are being processed now on a first come first serve basis at:
http://www.butterflylabs.com/order-form-bitforce-sha256-mini-rig/

Will upgraded singles be offered with the same lower power consumption as this mini-rig?

Looks like this thing has 32 fans  ::)

Interesting.

Is the warranty from delivery or purchase?

Delivery

interested.

How heavy is this beast? :)

Why aren't you accepting Bitcoin as a valid payment method ?

I assume that these PCBs with the next generation "processor" will make their way into the 'next generation' rev singles once they are available (in 12-15 weeks). It wouldn't make sense otherwise. Having said that, I could just buy 24 next gen singles for $14,376 ($599x24) with the same performance and power consumption, couldn't I? Would save me $900.

Obviously, the downside would be 24 USB cables and a few USB hubs, but if an essential component (central controller?) breaks down on the Mini Rig I would have to send the whole thing back to you guys and wait for another 12-15 weeks to get a new one in worst case. While if one of my 24 singles breaks down, my 23 other ones keep doing their thing and produce Bitcoin on a daily basis.

Is there a non virtual mock up aka a real, working unit?

Thanks for the update Sonny!

Notice the wording - room for 24 - he didn't say 24.  As I understand it will be 18 (since the not so well kept secret is out)  :D

Also - these are modular and could be run off USB if the central controller card went bad.

I am sure BFL will check the thread and confirm...

If i remember rightly, next gen. singles will be more expensive (think about $699)

If it's indeed 18 singles that deliver 25GH/s on the next gen "processor", I don't care. Saves me an additional $2715 compared to buying their Mini Rig.

18 x $699 = $12.582

If it's still 24 units that you need for 25GH/s, we are not THAT far away.

24 x $699 = $16.776

The difference of $1481 might just be worth the redundancy I'd get in return. And don't forget I could only buy a few units and upgrade when I have more cash. No need to fork out over $15k at once. And I don't need to send them money 12-15 weeks up front. I could just wait until the singles are in stock, which I assume will happen sooner or later.

I really don't know if the singles will ever be 'In stock'.  ;D


BFL what kind of power supply will this use?  Can it be located in the chassis?  It doesn't look like it, probably external.  :(

PSU will be included with the unit, and it will be inside the enclosure...

Antirack, just to clarify...  there are 18 cards in the unit as shipped.  The illustration above shows 24 cards in order to demonstrate the arrangement.  We may sell additional upgrade cards at some point but pricing and availability haven't been worked out as all production is being dedicated to the core Mini Rig product itself.

Regarding the future release of a Single based on these cards, that may happen eventually and the pricing would be different but this will not happen in the near or mid term as all of this production is dedicated to the Mini Rig platform.

Is there any chance that these can be reconfigured to do something else than btc mining,  can they at least be used for sha cracking ?

Heh I have 330 grams 24k GOLD bars laying around, which just about equals the price of this rig, I am thinking selling the GOLD and buying the mini rig.

Is anyone else looking to order one ?

Another issue also initiated "BFL" about the same ...
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/538/spamlg.jpg

They say that it will be the same setup as a single so just as they advertise that for the single I imagine it will be the same case here.  Although, I don't think they have release the software yet to use them for something other than mining.

Bitcoin has recently been added as a payment option for purchase of the Singles.  We're currently working to add it as a payment method for the Mini Rig in the next several days.

doing the math i take the 25.2 Ghash/s (from BFL's website on the product page) divided by 18 cards gives 1,400 Ghash/s per card.  something can't be right there.

If releasing a software is all what is needed I'd feel much safer from a algo change.
I guess it depend on the number of pin used and the nature of the new algo.

I'm bothering to ask because your website show these other uses, (linking to self, BTW this is annoying)
Is it realist to think this would possible on current BFL products ? (given softwares are made)

I too find this quite neat. I can 'download' the other drivers, for other uses. It's been like that since before the Singles were out, and are largely why I didn't think BFL was legit.


Sorry for being a bit off topic, back on topic:

25000 / 18 = 1388.88 m/hash a unit.

Even at max capacity (24)

25000 / 24 = 1041 m/hash each.

Back to those crazy numbers again BFL? Honestly, I think that large of a jump in hashing is a bit high, even with a different chip than the current design.

May be they are switching to a Hardcopy solution.

It's much more likely they are quoting the maximum hash rate of the box with all 24 modules installed. Going from 832 MH/s to 1041 is certainly believable if they are changing to a newer chip.

If this is true, unlikely, it would be misleading and anger some people. 

@ BFL.  Can you confirm the performance with standard configuration of 18 boards per Mini Rig?

The base configuration of the Mini Rig has 18 card slots occupied and performs at 25 gh/s.

So the new Single will do approximately 1400 mhash/s using 2 chips so that is 700 mhash/s per chip ?

28nm FPGA ?

At less than 34.7 Watt per chip (1250/18/2), or 69.44 Watt per single (minus power consumption of fans and LCD).

>So the new Single will do approximately 1400 mhash/s using 2 chips so that is 700 mhash/s per chip ?


There is no new single.  All production of these processors will be dedicated to our Mini Rig product exclusively.

I hope BFL gives the new Single a new name like the "Double" or something. You can't tell when you order which version you will get currently.

LOL  :) do people ever read what is replied ? Just above it says There is no new single.  All production of these processors will be dedicated to our Mini Rig product exclusively.
And now you ask what the new Single will be called ?  ???

Vapor? - Do you realize I wrote this message before BFL posted that message?

Why? I'd sure buy a couple of those new tech singles. I've already sent you $17k once.

Why not ?

Because it makes no business sense to sell an outdated product while you already have a better one that does exactly the same but, uhm, better?

And at the cost of manufacturing two different products while you could manufacture only one?

And the need to source two different "processors" while you could source only one?

Do I need to go on?

Why would they?

A Mini-rig is simply 18 "new singles" (yeah BFL doesn't like that term but regardless it is 18 new boards).  They obviously have limits on production (has anyone yet gotten an order in 4-6 weeks? anyone?).  Given that they can sell everything they can make (and then some) why would they want to sell single units when they can sell them in batches of 18.  Fewer, larger orders are easier to handle especially when production constrained.

IF you makes it easier don't think of it as a mini-rig.  Think of 1 order as 18 boards.  You can get as many as you want with the caveat that you must buy at least 18 and all orders must be in increments of 18 units.  My guess is that if there is enough demand someone could buy a mini-rig and split it out to 18 individual boards. :)

The biggest difference is lead time.  We've ramped up production of the Single and are now shipping in volume.  The Mini Rig platform has a longer lead time because of it's processor manufacture constraints.  If you're making a longer term investment on a larger scale, the Mini Rig may make much more sense because of the long term value of it's cost efficiency.  If you're looking to make a more casual investment and get started more quickly, the single may be more attractive.  It's up to the consumer of course, but our reason for keeping the products separate is in production streamlining.

Well, if BFL can make a faster "single", then other companies could also. BFL will eventually be forced to sell their faster unit to stay competitive.

I envy the people that can afford the mini rig and have the guts to invest that much.

I am placing an order for one next week. I can afford one only because it should break even in under a year, and I calculate that even at $1 per Bitcoin it should still be profitable.

Regarding guts :) I have lost $10000 on Forex trading once, so $15000 doesn't really scare me anymore.

Great, yet another BFL thread to watch  ;D

I don't anticipate them selling us at least 18 new 28 nm FPGAs that perform better than the single.

Current speculation is that the single uses two $7000 chips or something like that, the reason they are cheap is because of age. If they were to use new chips, we'd be looking at a large fortune for the box.


Edit: The weird thing is that said the lead time is longer because the chips are made to order.

I'm not really sure how BFL works its magic, but I really like the speculation around it.

18, not 16.

Fixed.

If they get the chips produced,  how are they getting such a good deal on them?  I would think if they were not readily stocked items they would come at a premium.  ???

In business it's called having an edge :) if everyone knew their secret then they would not be as competitive anymore.

Hmm, difficult to decide now.

Mini Rig US$ 15k 1250Watt 25GH 12-15 weeks (real weeks or BFL weeks?)
LargeCoin US$ 15k 100Watt 20GH 12-15 weeks (July)

What speaks for BFL is that they have a product shipping, although it looks like they'd need a lot of luck to actually deliver what they promise and in the promised time frame.

What speaks for LargeCoin is the persons behind it are known with job history and they don't seem to be total nut jobs (although I have claimed at one point in time that they are clowns, when they dropped the price from $30k to $15k within a few days after announcing the product, lol).

Don't understand this wrong BFL. I love your single and it's doing a great job for all the people that have one.




At $1/BTC it would take 7.2 years to break even with electricity of $0.07/kWh. At $0 electricity it would take 5.3 years. At $5/BTC it would still take a bit more than a year at $0 electricity cost.

(assuming difficulty at 1600000 and 25 BTC/block)

Am I missing something here or do I need a coffee first (I just woke up)?

If you calculate with 4-5 months (Aug, Sep, Oct, Nov) at 50 BTC/block you are really gambling on BFL being able to pull this off in the next 3 months and ship them out the door, aren't you?

You would be, but thats the gamble that they would be going for. Or betting on the value of the bitcoin to increase once the block reward is halved.

Watching this thread.

I'd like to know more about the production ramp up of the Singles if possible.

Since everybody is speculating, let me jump on the bandwagon.

If I am not wrong then ice_chill is in the UK and his electricity cost is probably 3 or 4 times more than the quoted $0.07 (and indefinitely more than $0.00).  

He'd have to pay a few hundred US$ shipping cost to the UK for his Mini Rig.

He'd have to smuggle the Mini Rig to the UK in order to avoid a $3202 (21% VAT) charge of import duties.

A $3202 crime (smuggling/undervaluing shipment etc) is not just a slap on the finger if caught, so he is probably going to do the right thing and support the queen.

He is selling his 24K gold in order to buy a Mini Rig and pay the shipping/taxes.

His strategy" depends on many IFs

- if the price of BTC goes up
- if BFL delivers before August
- if the Mini Rig does what was promised and just works
- if the gold wouldn't have done better
- if the BTC goes up after block reward is halved

He legitimates this purchase with the fact that he lost $10k on the Forex market and hence it's no big deal. I am wondering if he didn't lose his $10k because it his "business strategy" looked somewhat like his new master plan to increase his wealth by using a BFL Mini Rig.

If this is true, then wouldn't it make more sense for ice_chill to just buy BTC for his gold and lean back and enjoy the show if he is already betting on so many IFs?

Your probably right in the risk of all the ifs, but where is the fun without the risk and the shiny 15k box to play with.

Is this based on a simulation of the new chip, or on an actual real board?

That, right there, is the only thing that makes sense to me. I'd love to have a shiny $15k box that pushes 25GH!!

But I am not going to send BFL $15k for 12-15 weeks up front based on a 3D image and a couple of numbers. I've already sent them $5k down payment once for a product that will never see the light of day (the big brother of the Mini Rig). And they still haven't shipped their January orders of the single as far as I can tell.

Who knows if they won't pull the same stunt with the mini rig and cancel it once they realize it's not possible just like with the Rig Box? Or who knows if this whole thing is not just here to mess with LargeCoin or others? Who knows Sonny's real name and place of business? And their competition is certainly not sleeping.

Spending $599 via PayPal alright, but now we are at $15 bank payment upfront or Bitcoin only and their track record isn't really the best when it comes to keeping promises and releasing new products.

Again, the only thing that speaks for BFL is that they have a product shipping. But if you take the single release as reference you just have to expect trouble down the road going from a 3D image to a real product.

Sorry, but that's the way I see it.


My guess, it's based on computations based on 5 fingers and a tip calculator. Correct me if I am wrong  ;D

Maybe offer to pay a non-refundable 7500$ per minirig to secure parts and the rest when product is near ready ?

Leaving 15k$ sleeping for months is hard to live with for us opportunist Bitcoiners.

Your power and USB cables are going to run into the far side fans.

- Need excitement, holding bars of Gold is boring.
- Bitcoin profit calculator shows very promising results
- I trust BFL more than Largecoin as BFL already has working products, and LargeCoin's 25Ghash@100watt is hard to believe.
- Once the box breaks even, at worst case I can ship it to a friend in Ukraine with electricity cost of $0.05, with current level it would cost $0.01 to produce a Bitcoin, so even at $0.05/BTC it should be profitable.
- Import tax is payable and unavoidable anyway, if you buy from abroad you pay it, if you buy from local shops then it is already paid and added to the price.

My other option is to spend $15k and build a mining rig with HD7970s or HD7990s, but with electricity prices I would have to leave UK and do it in Ukraine, which I don't really want.

I gotta say, looking at that picture, I cant believe how poorly you thought out airflow.  There is not nearly enough clearance for the fans and no clear in/out stream of air, its just going in all directions, and the fans are mostly blocked... by other fans.  This is really just a case of "lets slap more fans on it and it will work". Its almost as bad as the single where you added fan blowing to the back of the PCB.

How hard could it have been to arrange those boards facing each other, rather than just stacked,  and create  wind tunnels front to back between them? Im pretty sure a decent design would allow lower temps with less than half that amount of fans.

Classic rule of three, any scheme that requires more than 3 different things to happen will never work in real life.

That said, kudos for considering it anyway. I'd probably take a shot if I had that sort of cash lying around.

The good news is that everything indicates 1 RigBox = 18 independent "super singles".  So custom cases and cooling would be possible.  With mounting holes on the boards finally (yes this applies to all FPGA designers releasing a board w/ no mounting holes is asinine) even watercooling would be possible. 

Still I agree the airflow seems .... inefficient (I am trying to be more nice).

I wouldn't see why immersion cooling wouldn't also be an option. :)

Hi D&T,

Can you arrange the boards within the enclosure to make the airflow more efficient and share it with BFL?

Thanks,
gigavps

I believe I could. Much larger heatsinks, (perhaps the height of where the individual fan would be if removed) and toss the individual fan on top of each "super single" (I like that term ;D). Same cross-ways fan arrangement, but less turbulence and localized heating. The case fans may need to be a little higher velocity.

I went and looked at the dimensions in the first post, and it looks like in its current form it will take up 7U of rack height, but it is 10 inches wide which would make it a tight squeeze to get 2 of them beside each other in a standard 19" rack. Perhaps it would be best to ignore potential improvements here though, because I don't want to delay anything by causing a redesign halfway through. However, for the future SuperComputer, if it isn't watercooled, the best thing to do would be to make it fit in a rack as best as possible. That could mean specially ducted airflow, offset processors (to prevent waste heat from cooking another processor), standard width, (no shelf needed), and no more than 4U height.

Take for example a 2U server with quad 90 watt processors: They have fairly large heatsinks, and none of them are in line with each other. Although these might have to be stacked several deep, an offset arrangement would prevent the heat from travelling linearly as it does now, cooking the rear devices.

rjk, thanks for your input. I know BFL is eager to get feedback from the community and I appreciate you taking the time to write this up. Hopefully the current heatpipe for the rev3 can work to remove enough heat from the super single chips.

We have already seen evidence that BFL is listening to the community (mini rigs instead of rig boxes, off-the-shelf PSUs to power them) so the more constructive feedback we can get to them, the faster they can assimilate these ideas into the products.

I do have a question though. Can the current heat pipes be linked together to better dissipate heat? I'm by no means a technical expert in this area, just wondering if there is a way to use the heatpipes currently produced to better achieve "larger heatsinks".

No, not really, and it wouldnt serve a purpose, unless you mean a new "shared cooler" that uses one large radiator and links all the individual chips with heatpipes. Probably a bit cumbersome and expensive, and pretty much out of the question for DIY. I mean, it can be done, if you are a good plumber, but.. I wouldnt :). Watercooling is probably easier and more efficient.

 What would be useful, but depends on the design of the heatsink, is creating a shroud that covers the heatsinks and forces air through all of them. Thats how most high density servers are cooled, there is a row of fans at the front and the air is guided over and through the cpu heatsinks with a simple plastic shroud. Not all that different from gpus actually.

So just remove the individual fans, beef up the back and front fans and force the air through the individual heatsinks. That does require the fins are properly aligned to allow that.

Without access to the boards and some testing it is hard to say for sure.  Maybe their design is optimal but it would seem to be.  Even non-optimal maybe the design has enough airflow to keep everything coo.

If I purchase a mini-rig the first thing I would do it open it up. :)  I actually had little interest in the rig or mini-rig until finding out it looks like the boards are independent.  Hopefully BFL can confirm that.  BFL can the boards function removed from the rig box and connected to a host PC via USB just like the single's do?  If they boards can operate independently and they allowed pre-ordering with a deposit (say $2K) I would order today but I don't like locking up $15K on a product which hasn't even been built yet and some questions remain.

The first though I had when looking at the CAD is the 18 individual fans are counter productive to the airflow going across the boards.  I would experiment by turning all the board on their sides and using pusher and puller fans to try and force airflow front to back.  Maybe my time in datacenters is causing tunnel vision but that type of design allows multicore database servers to remain cool under higher load.  Cold air in the front, hot air out the back.

The heatsink chosen is non-optimal for that kind of airflow but it still may work depending on heat load.  Preferably one would want a heat sink with has large number of fins aligned with the direction of airflow so cooling is achieved by pushing airflow across the finds.

Something like (top view)

B = one board placed perpendicular.  View is top view so you are looking at the sides of the boards.
B

3 ranks of 6 boards = 18 boards (although no room for expansion).
You would want a baffle or shroud to force the air past the heatsinks.  So the exact layout would require some testing, experimentation.


I would imagine you could fit it in a standard 19" rack chassis.  Maybe 4U?.  I wouldn't put 10 in a datacenter rack but maybe 8 with 1U between servers.  200GH/s per rack?  

Anyways that was my first thought.

I hope it has dust filters, high amount of airflow will turn it into a mini vacuum cleaner.

and with the dust filters it becomes an air purifier :p And like D&T said a reasonable deposit would be much nicer than coughing up and locking up 15 grand for 3-6+ months, ~2K down and remainder when ready to ship is totally fair deal, BFL loses nothing by doing it since they don't ship until getting the rest of it and you don't get all that money locked away on someone else's bank account. Even at lousy 0.74% 6 month CD is a much better deal than to lock 15K at 0% interest for around that much time or longer depending on if it they actually get the Mini out in the 3-4 months like advertised.

This is a sore subject.  BFL's response to partial payment until delivery is that they use the entire funds to support production.  Whether this is true...who knows.

Seems they are very risk averse to fronting capital to run their operation.

I would think that BFL knows bitcoin mining is a rather risky venture. If they from $200k to build a bunch of mini rigs and the network goes south, all they have is deposits. They are putting the risk in the right place.

and if bitcoin went south today every single person without exception(except those that paid in BTC) would pull their funds from them by charging back their cards since unless you shipped(with tracking) the item the transaction charge back is very easy to win...

Don't know which country you're from(I know I am just being sarcastic) but here in america the only business that pushes all the risk of all their crap ventures to the consumer without any arguing and whom doesn't have to deal with any of the consequences is the the government since they print all the money and have most of the guns.

This is true. Any other industry the company would have to assume some of the risk to be able to compete in price. Once again though, its a matter of needing a competitor thats hungry.

There's no credit card option for a mini rig. Also, this type of transaction would be considered a business venture and it would be unlikely you'd win your charge back, especially after 15 weeks (6 months?). Same goes for the singles. If you started a 600 charge back within 60 days you'd be ok. But if you spent 15k, you'd have a lot of trouble and would probably lose. Recovering bank wire funds after 15+ weeks isn't going to happen.

it's not called business venture no matter which way you look at it... it's a hardware purchase. BFL isn't selling you a franchise. If you run a business from the hardware you buy from them it's your problem but that isn't what they deal in or what they are advertising.

What you really should be considering is resale value and downtime. If you factor resale cost in your your M/Hash cost your cost will be around .50 per M/Hash if you sell within the first two years. It's almost what BFL is selling their rig at. The only difference is that you your money will be tied up for almost 4 months based on BFL's performance to date. That's a loss of $8,000 in productivity for downtime on currently exchange rates and difficulty. You are paying 10 cents per M/Hash and getting a significantly lower power cost.  You also are investing the entire 15k betting that the market will be favorable.  If you pay a lot for electricity and don't care about the risk in BTC then the 15k won't seem unreasonable. If you have low electricity costs and want to mitigate your risk by being able to resale the GPUs if you shutdown your rig then it's not a good choice for you.

I personally am investing only 20% of my budget in FPGA hardware. I'm doing that on the assumption that FPGA will eventually be significantly lower cost then GPUs but we are not quite there yet.

Hope that helps...

Resale value is the biggest unknown with dedicated hardware. A GPU will always have resale value, even an FPGA development board adapted as miner certainly will have some resale value. However the resale value of a dedicated FPGA bitcoin miner depends completely on the value of bitcoin. So it's most straightforward to consider no resale value for a BFL miner: if the bitcoin value is high enough I won't sell my BFL miner but use it for making profit; if I don't make profit with it anymore, it's just luck if anyone will buy it (at a meaningful price), I'd be better off looking for another crypo-currency application to use it for.

The individual boards are fitted with functional USB & 5.5mm barrel Power jack.  However, the in box connectivity & power are provided by a proprietary link system connecting to the Motherboard.  If you remove a card, you can run it on it's own like a Single.  Singles can also be run inside the Mini Rig enclosure, but only via USB.  

This hasn't been mentioned yet but the Mini Rig comes with a Raspberry Pi mounting rack for self hosting capability.  This would also be used for running non Mini-Rig link enabled PCB's.  

Regarding the airflow, I appreciate your thoughts.  I think it's a good idea.  We came to a somewhat similar conclusion.  The arrangement illustration isn't an accurate representation of the final design, it's just an an illustration of the modular design.  The key difference is inverted trays with baffles to trap 2 levels of hot air in 2 powered air exhaust  channels.  

My electricity is $0.00 and I have no VAT. Let's work out a rev share. I'm happy to host. I'd have immediate openings for ~Mini Rig Boxes

So will a linuxcoin or bamt run on a ras pi(or does it need to be ported for arm arch.) and then we can run the mini rig off that?  Is BFL going to release their own os for this including easy miner? This sounds awesome but i am curious.

For how long?

I think it's time somebody gave BFL a pat on the back. It's impressive that they put together a complete package for $600. Custom processors, custom enclosure, custom heatsink... that's a lot of engineering work. It sounds like everybody else is gonna have a very hard time matching the new BFL processors.

The only thing required to run cgminer/ufasoft is a linux kernel and some third-partie libraries installed.
Since they are console applications, no special UI is needed. One can access it through SSH remotely.

Should anyone be interested in BAMT or other linux distros, then they must be recompiled for ARM architecture.
We haven't look into any of that yet, but we will at certain point in the future...


Good Luck,

True, true.  I'm just spoiled.

Id bet this had been asked before but...

Would this hardware be useful for anything else if the bitcoin network disappeared tomorrow?

Curious, are there any individuals going in as a group to purchase one of these?

See 'gigamining' on GLBSE.

Yup, seen gigavps' operation. I want singles for myself though to add to my own farm. This is a hobby for me and I enjoy watching the machines hum away, blink lights at me and update charts.

Once I can cash in my Gold I am ready to order.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh89/dan_2285/ggg.jpg

1 BTC for the small one. It's a great offer.

Has anyone gotten a Rev3 unit yet? BFL said they would be shipping out and the end of March.

Rev3 units are shipping.

How many rev3 units do you have giga?   ;) :P ;D



EDIT:  VVV  Officially off my chair laughing! bastard.  VVV

Over 9000

You know me, I'll post more pics when the time is right.  ;)

Good luck and pray that you will not find this inside : http://silverdoctors.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/tungsten-filled-1-kilo-gold-bar.html :D

Also, why not buy BTC directly using gold or after converting gold to USD if you believe in the cause of BTC and willing to invest $25k in something that is a paperweight outside of BTC ?

I think people are fooling themselves with these boxes in terms of ROI. I am quite sure that when all these 25 ghash/s rigs come online we will quickly get to difficulty above 2 million very quickly.

Quite true. At 2 million difficulty these rigs are still exceptionally profitable. And when the block reward drops to 25 btc/block, they're still very profitable. If my btc wallet was bigger I would totally order one.

I view mining as an escalating war. Right now GPUs are the method of choice for scratching out a few BTC/day. Soon however the big boys will be playing with massive FPGA setups and relegate GPUs to hobbyists and individuals who can't secure the capital to invest in FPGA. Luckily GPUs still have a competitive MH/$ but the profits earned are a fraction of FPGAs. In the end the mining market will stabilize with the new default platform of FPGA. I also don't doubt that the difficulty will spike with the introduction of more FPGAs. It'll get to the point where a number of GPU miners drop out due to negative income and things stabilize with a fraction of GPU miners on cheap/free power and a majority of FPGA miners.

Well currently the network is up to 15 Thash, most are probably GPUs, to replace it with Mini Rigs@25Ghash each it will take only 600 units. 600*15k = $9 000 000.

Not quite 15 yet  ;)

http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-10k.png

I don't believe in BTC, only in mining it while it is worth something.

If I spend $15k on BTC and then it drops to $1/BTC then I have forever lost money. BUt with the mini rig at $1/BTC it will still bring $4000 USD per year. So it's a no brainer.

Funnily enough it is exactly this profiteer nature that I think will be the death of BTC come block reward halving and December 2012.

What we need right now is people buying BTC because it has a value ( SR for example ) not people leeching and jumping on the "get rich" train and giving nothing back.

Have it your way :D

Well why giving nothing back ? the more people mine the quicker the transactions will get done and less room for 51% hashing power attack.

Without miners investing into hardware to support the network the BTC will die. I see BTC more suitable for tax/fee avoidance transactions, not investment currency.

Why do you think so ?

1) TX times will always be 10 minutes.  The network adjusts to ensure that.
2) 51% attack isn't economical at 10TH/s.  A non-economical attack is just as viable at 20 TH/s as it is at 10 TH/s.  Now 100TH/s or 1000 TH/s that is a different story but the network won't grow that large without a vibrant economy behind it.

3) Why would Bitcoin die if miners stopped expanding the network?  That doesn't even make sense.

Your funds, your risk but please don't pretend like you are saving Bitcoin.

I would have though someone dropping 15 large on hashing hardware would have at least a rudimentary knowledge of how the network works and the economics behind it.  .... I guess not.

Quick question, I don't know if this has been answered before but I've read that the mini rig is modular and can be upgraded? Does this mean BFL will be selling individual upgrade modules? At what cost? and what will the max hasrate and power consumption be?

So who will be the first to buy one of these with Bitcoins?

Problem is that if the company goes bankrupt or disappears then a Bitcoin payment is not traceable and not proof able. And $15k in Bitcoins is too much risk.

A bank transfer can be traced, or if the company is seized then the bank transfer can just be reversed to the original owner.

If they make their address public and you have your address, then this transaction is in the block publicly available to anyone. That's how I understand it anyway.

So no details about modules?

It IS funny, given that it's probably exactly the other way around: this profiteer nature is BTC's only chance to swim. Everything else sinks.

Bitcoin works because there is a demand for this currency. currency users don't give a crap how much less you'll be earning as far as the system works. And it will work, because even after halving in December it will be profitable to mine.

So how many people have ordered and on what dates ?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67887.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67887.0)

I've ordered the rest. There are no more left...........  ;D  ;D  ;D 

You have 17 now, is that right?  If your wife has any towels to dry, she can just hang them in the "hashing" room.

Only 15.  ;)

So far.....

No way you ordered 15x $15,000 mini rigs. I don't believe it.

15 singles.....

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-IZDz8j4NLIw/T4iEOru0xzI/AAAAAAAAA4Q/0-uSLXdKGHY/s720/IMG_0237%255B1%255D.JPG

Is the $15,000 required up front, or can a down payment be applied when placing the order, the remaining balance being paid once the unit is completed and ready to ship?

Also, how are repairs handled outside the warranty period? Are extended warranties available?

Down payment of $2 (two dollars) should be fine.  :)

$15 000 required up front. They will put you in production line when they have received your payment. No refunds.

Considering the cost, this being a start-up company, the 3 month waiting period, the volatility of Bitcoin, and possibility of delays, there must be some protection available for the client.

Given the modularity of the Mini Rig internal components, a down-payment is not unreasonable. It could include only the cost of parts unique to the Mini Rig, or what have you.

And how will the workforce stay in employment for 3 months to build the minirig if you pay for parts only ?

That is called overhead.  The extra profit from the singles should take care of that.

I would whole heartily support a down payment plan on this as I can't front the total cost upfront or lose my investment capital for 3 months (or more).

Other companies offer downpayment plans or one can pay right before the delivery. I think it's weird that buyer has to pay 3-4 (could be five or more) months in advance. If I invest that 15k$, it makes 180$ for me in four months.

Well they are already hardly coping with full upfront cost orders, if they offered down payment they could get an order log that would take years to clear.

Hence they should hire more people or have the boards fully populated in china where volume is easier.

They ran into supply chain management issues the last time that happened. TRANSLATION: Delivery dates got fucked up again because of the Chinese new year. Although I'm pretty sure most of the board-populating work is now being done in China since the new year is over.

IMO that statement doesn't make sense to me.
With paying full cost upfront, there's no incentive for them to speed up production, it actually makes them money by delaying orders (notwithstanding the reputation issue with that). Paying only a down-payment would give them an incentive to streamline and speed up the process to recoup their investment faster.

And yes the Chinese New Year  ;)

Actually, it's $15,510 within the U.S., including shipping.

could 18 people buy one unit and split the cards up and just plug into usb ?

Oh, thanks for the info. You forgot to mention the VAT that private customers have to pay, at least in EU. That $510 changes the whole thing. I need to make some new calculations.

(dumbassfanboy)

Always willing to educate where education is needed.

P.S.: Why do you call yourself dumbassfanboy?

Yes, the board has USB on it. I also had that thought a while ago, it's probably the cheapest method to get a board with their new chip.

Yup. Full payment up front, and in 6 months you may get a Mini Rig.

Don't judge me. I would buy a whole pile of singles or two MiniRigs if they could deliver them faster. Correcting me about some $510 is just dumb especially when I was answering to someone else. When BFL gets their shipping schedule in order I while buy some(~20) singles.

Well, I happen to know the exact number because I wired the $15,510 just yesterday - no need for you to get so defensive about it when someone posts the correct number. Yes, it costs more than the Largecoin mining rig, which I have
also ordered. So, in case you tried to call me a BFL fanboy, that's not only juvenile, but also inaccurate: I have a ZTEX board, a double digit number of Radeon cards, [currently] four Singles mining and some more Singles on order, along with a Mini Rig Box and a Largecoin box.

Take a look at the wait list.  Everyone who gets one is going to be screwed.  Right now it pays for itself in 6.6 months not counting electricity.  When that many people have one, the difficulty will go up like 5x and they'll all be getting next to nothing.  I wouldn't get one if they were free because it won't even pay for electricity as soon as too many people have one.  He should have just built one and kept it :P

Most uneducated and uninformed post I have ever encountered on this forum.

Yeah right. The guy is stating the obvious but you all BFL fanboys are failing to see it.

Good luck with your big boxes !

Is the Raspberry Pi included with the Mini rigs ?

Any news on that EU VAT avoidance plan you guys had ? EU reseller ?

"like 5x difficulty increase" -- assuming over 6-9 months (he doesn't say).

I'll take that bet all day long

He is talking about difficulty increasing ? at some point in Bitcoin history the difficulty was so low that you could profitably mine with 200Kilohash (0.2Mhash) since then the difficulty has increased exponentially, much more than 5 times! but it's still profitable. That guy is stupid and ignorant as he does not understand basic maths.
I don't even know why I bothered replying to this.

IC...

I am taking to absolute numbers.  I do not foresee the difficulty being > 7.5M by years end.  Agreed it has increased a huge amount since inception but is about unchanged since last May...

I thought that was the rule of two?

- If you need oxygen to breathe
- If you need food to feed yourself
- If you need clothes to not freeze
- If you need shelter to not be eaten by wild animals

Nah it will never work, better be just dead :)

That would be last June/July for the diff being this high right after the price explosion to ~$30 when the diff changes were coming at a 4x increase every 4 days, this time last year the difficulty was well under a million. In fact it was at 157k on May 9, 2011 I just threw a few block numbers in the block explorer and block number 123,000 has that for a difficulty on that day.

http://blockexplorer.com/block/00000000000069b73594b10aaa38beaeadc6d3f28cab8d76c4a6ac182694fd41

We can see difficulty drop considerably when block reward halves as GPU miners exit the game.

Quite right dilligaf- I was off by several weeks...

If bitcoins completely disappeared would these machines have any resale value? I don't understand why everyone argues that they will not pay off even if it takes 2 years to break even, you still have the machine, say it is worth $5k after two years thats a 16% return. I may not completely understand the risks but sounds solid to me.

Well they do SHA256 processing, so anything else that uses SHA256 can probably be run on these if BFL released the development tool kit.

I'm wondering about the noise this will make. Considering all the power and heat it will take/produce, I'd want to place one in each room of the house/office during the winter at least. Would lower the natural gas usage considerably. Problem is if it sounds like a jet taking off, it would prevent one from having the fringe benefits of the heat.

People don't buy this based on it's heating capacity, and people don't run it in the winter, they run it 24/7.

I dunno, I know people who are running GPUs even though they're now losing money just because winter fuel costs more per BTU adjusted for mining profit.

Well, its a massive increase in profits for those of us in the north. (Alaska for me) If I had 6 mini rigs for instance @ 7200 watts I could save a LOT on heating costs while also mining. Put one in each area of the house.

Summers here never get over about 72° F so as long as I can keep the air exchanging from inside to outside I could keep things cool enough in the summer too.

This is all even more beneficial because power costs here are about $0.14 a kilowatt.

Just saying, its a nice fringe benefit for some of us.

Yeah, see, this is the argument I had with Diablo Mining Company haters.

Them: MOVE TO ARIZONA/TEXAS/BUMFUCKED EGYPT, MORE SUN
Me: More power and money wasted for active cooling.
Them: BUT BUT BUT MAINE IS COLD
Me: Thats the idea.

Seriously, I will never understand some people.

We would like to let all our clients know that, in case of Bitcoin failure, we will make all our units OpenSource,
and thus making it possible for the clients to sell their units to various industries at almost certainly higher price
than they purchased it in the first place.


Regards,
BF Labs Inc.

This makes no sense. Why would you not open-source now and make more money (according to you)?

Lol I knew this would be the first question to come up. Anyway the fact that they are willing to open source it and we know now the chip is an FPGA are both very good news.

Also it is more likely the hashing power of the Single or Mini-rig will not be profitable long before Bitcoin goes down, remember you used to be able to mine with "KILOhashes"

Why would these "various industries" buy our molested units at a higher price when you could sell them "new" units cheaper and keep making money?

Keep on dreaming. Nobody will buy your used BFLs :

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79825.0

Hint : nobody wants these chips new in the first place !

thats what I getting at in a slow turtle pace.. jeez man you ruin everything!!! lol

Why are you looking a gift horse in the mouth? You have less faith in Bitcoin surviving than BFL does! And if you think Bitcoin is going to collapse any time soon, why don't you go make it happen, so you can get your beloved SDK?

I don't think Bitcoin will collapse, I have ordered a Single and a Mini-Rig. What I think is the current BFL hardware will be long outdated before anything happens to Bitcoin (if anything ever does happen) so worrying "what if Bitcoin collapses" is pointless.

There have been many complaints that the BFL hardware will be a very expensive paperweight if bitcoin goes bust. Seems to me that BFL was addressing that concern. Although I have NO idea what else they could be used for, I at least have the comfort of knowing now that I will have access to the information needed to retask it should bitcoin fail and something else present itself.

With the number of Singles and Mini-Rigs being sold I wouldn't be surprised if some company releases paid software to use on them.

Will it be able to mine MicroCash once bitcoin collapses ???

 :D

Legitimate question:  Do you know what an FPGA is?  Like, could you describe it and understand what it is you're talking about?

Yes.

Sorry, I should have removed your quote as I meant to direct it to Bulanula.

If they don't provide a bitstream for MicroCash then you won't be able to mine them smartass !

Also, good luck mining things like scrypt on these crappy FPGAs :D

If FPGA is so great then why nobody use it to mine LTC yet ???

Because it's more profitable to mine Bitcoin and use it to buy LTC due to price difference  ;D

True but can it technically be done because I understand scrypt algo needs like 1024KB L1 cache memory or something which only CPU has ...

Has anyone received any progress updates from bfl on their development of the mini-rig or any updates on anticipated delivery dates?

I think gigavps is at the very front of the list (as is Inaba I _think_)

gigavps has said publicly late May...

Yes, if BFL could give us weekly updates on the progress, then it would put everyone's mind at rest and eliminate guessing and worrying as to what they are doing (everyone meaning those who ordered).

Here's a quick photo update for you...

This is one of the modular Mini Rig processor cards.  It's a 1.5 GH/s unit which operates at a board temperature of 36C with a 22C ambient.  

http://www.butterflylabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/MR-BF2_burn.png
http://www.butterflylabs.com/production-update/

That SATA port looks interesting.

Maybe a Highspeed differential link between the boards for future use ?? Sata connectors and cables are cheap.

I was about to post the same thing, but it's labeled "X-LINK" and since a SATA port doesn't make sense (the bandwidth is not that high and the mini rig will have a Raspberry Pi as a controller, not a a PC motherboard with 18 SATA ports), I assume that they just re-purposed the SATA connector and SATA cables for something else. The question is: For what?

Yes, because I don't see a second one that I would assume would exist when used in a daisy chain fashion.

Maybe it's just some simple SPI or [point-to-point] I2C digital I/O that will plug into [an I/O board of] the Raspberry Pi.

18 cards was the original plan as I recall.

I hope the push to 17 and higher output per card (i.e., better yield for BF Labs) wasn't at the expense of lower tolerance for heat since the chips are being pushed further....

All that said, the update is greatly appreciated!  Further, the specs are right as promised!!!

It's to replace the USB headers internallly on a mini-rig.  The USB headers will still be there but unused unless you remove the card from the chasis.

Thank you for the update!

Anyone noticed the voltmeter measurement points at the top right ?

Singles have those too. But I see all kinds of cool goodies on the board, to be honest.

If I could get them sooner without the enclosure and the Raspberry Pi, I'd rather have my 18 boards as-is. OK, heat sinks would be nice.

Speaking of:
I have this theory that at least some of the cooling problems of [few] "problem Singles" originate from a lack of co-planarity between the two FPGAs, leading to a void between heat sink and FPGA at one or even both of the FPGAs. OK, not literally a void, but an area where the thermal paste is very thick, and that's not good.

It also seems common for the heatsinks to slip while shipping.

BFL, what are you doing to accommodate this?

That is a good theory, Inspector, and I agree with you. Cooling performance of the Rev3 units (single heatsink servicing both FPGAs) is dependent to some degree on the co-planarity of the chips, which is difficult to achieve in practice. If the 2 FPGAs each had their own heatsink the cooling performance might be better. It seems to be sufficient, however, to achieve the rated 832Mhps at 22C ambient with the stock fan(s). Perhaps not ideal or optimized, but sufficient. At this point I tend not to complain.

OK. Anyone have an idea of the chips they are using now ?

750 MHash/s for a single chip really is strange and very high.

I am afraid this is the death of GPUs :'( unless 7990 comes out soon.

Any update for EU buyers and VAT avoidance ??? I really want to buy but the VAT kills it.

Can't edit post above but it seems there is this writing on the chips this time around :

NDBAN20242
4PDHATWOA

Can't find anything about these but they look very strange indeed for a FPGA chip.

I think this time it is a structured ASIC.

They handed over some 300 grand to Altera to have a HardCopy chip (structured ASIC) made.
Naturally, without the parasitic capacitance of all the interconnect transistors, the HardCopy is faster and more power efficient.

So the Single is an FPGA so can be reused for a similar task, but mini-rig is a proper ASIC so application specific, no reuse possible ?

It's my best guess - don't take it for a fact just yet.

What I'd like to know is how this is going to interact with the host unit. Since it's "BitForce V 2.0" it seems like it would just work with cgminer, et al. just like the Singles. Does anybody know for sure? I haven't seen BFL make a statement on this as such. Maybe they could (wink wink)? Also, would it be a problem if it was reported to this host as one huge device doing 25,000 mhash? These are things I would wonder about if I were to drop 15.5k on dedicated mining hardware.

cgminer has handled well over 25 Gh/s in one instance - it is ready...

These are valid questions, but with them showing the Raspberry Pi inside I was thinking it was its own host unit.

My understanding was that the Raspberry Pi was optional - that it had the mounting area for it but that it didn't ship with the unit.

That's correct.  Sonny told me yesterday that you can either run the mini-rig with a Raspberry Pi or via USB to a host PC.

These are Altera's Lot Number and Trace Code. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=84651.0

I know I'm late, but the answer is: For that!
http://communityhosting.net/ih/images/camerazoom.jpg

I almost get the feeling they arbitrarily delay postage. like they wanna mine themselves as much as they can before shipping it. Ofcourse they deny this.

The current wait is because of a lack of cases, apparently the boards are ready to ship but there's nothing to put them in.

Yea that's the Singles, but what about Mini-rig, they demonstrated all the boards, some guy confirmed he saw the Mini-Rig cases at their office. They promised to start shipping end of may.

Yeah. Like the case is somehow connected to mining. Great excuse to delay shipping and mine some coins.

In case you missed it, they have stated that they only hash test data for testing, and it makes a lot of sense too. I don't know why others don't do it - they should have a suite a verifiable hashes that each device must pass in order to be considered accurate.

What is the current lead time on this?

BFL, can you answer honestly?

12-15 weeks.  If the second batch, which my two mini rigs are in, ships by the end of this month, they'll have met that timeframe.  Last week, Sonny told me they're about two weeks behind on the first batch, but on schedule for the second batch.

Regarding current lead times, there was a post by someone at BFL in the last week or two that said most likely the shorter end of 12-15 weeks.

Hi guys, sorry if we've missed forum participation more than usual lately.  We're well focused on Mini Rig initial delivery, but in sum...  I can generally confirm the comments of WP above.

Anyone interested in a road trip to bfl.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=85738

Is it possible to make delivery invoice with low price (smth. around $2000)? this would help to avoid tax in my country.

Does anyone actually own one of these things? I'd love to buy one or two of them if I could actually see what they look like and get a detailed breakdown of whats inside.

They haven't been shipped out yet. They look awesome and are essentially a bunch of next gen Singles in a box :)

None have shipped so far they claim that the reason they have shipped so few of the single units over the last couple of weeks is to work on getting these out the door plus they supposedly have big ASIC announcement due on the 15th of June that makes these machines obsolete.

Dillgaf, nobody ever said such a thing.  Quite the opposite, actually.  We have two distinctly separate production lines.  The singles are shipping in volume again and have been for some time.  

Believe it was BFL-engineer who said that in one of the threads and if by volume you mean next to no one on this board reporting much for shipping of their singles to them then yeah you must be shipping tons of them.

Believe it or not, the world doesn't revolve around the forum, and no reports of shipments doesn't mean squat.

Mr. FUD at it again.

Are the only people who mine BTC registered on the forums? Do they all have to register here before they can install the bitcoin client? Do you have BFL's client list and know that only people registered on the forums buy singles or mini rigs?

You would be wise to moderate yourself. If you need to take your anger out on someone, maybe you should look in the mirror.

Bitter little troll yet again eh? Well it is certainly not FUD that you are not paying your bonds out of a 200gh/s farm which you don't have and I notice did not reply to that question when I asked it, again just another chime in to spread your personal attack on me once more.

If you create an asset and sell X Ymh/s bonds, and don't actually have any mining hardware but still pay out what you should, who cares?

Also,
Double negative, so you're arguing against yourself :P

... Well... based on technicalities alone

A X MH/s Farm SHOULD produce Y Bitcoins a day, and it would probably be acceptable to payout Y Bitcoins a day, but Y is just an estimation of possible output, could be more, could be less...

Well the people who should care are the fools who are paying themselves with their own money/btc until it runs out..

Which it won't, since there is actually hardware. Are you willfully ignorant?
Don't bother answering that, because it is obvious that you aren't comprehending a whole lot here.

As of this moment and for the last two months there has been no hardware, when you are supposed to be paying a bond on 100gh/s (as it was originally) out of that hashing power and you don't have that power working for you then you are not doing what is required of the bond. It is you who are being willfully ignorant your lack of comprehension of that simple fact is stunning in its lack of any reasonable basis to make that claim.

That's called a Ponzi scheme. See how well it turned out for Madoff and Stanford :)

/me chuckles

Talk is cheap.

I love my BFL Singles, but I have to say, I hope they're planning a late night announcement, or at least announce that the announcement is delayed.

I'm glad to hear you're happy with your purchase.  

Yes, we'll be posting more information about the SC products later on tonight.  At the moment we're packing first run Mini Rigs after having completed initialization of the production line.  Here are some photos:

http://www.butterflylabs.com/mini-rig-production-line/

http://www.butterflylabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/IMG_3148-225x300.jpg

WTG on the power - under spec!

No close-up of the LCD display?!?

Sorry...

http://www.butterflylabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/IMG_31461.jpg

Oooh very nice BFL.  Well done.


Edit: Now I just wish I was rich. :'(

Thanks.  I should point out that the screen info is only showing the performance spec as a 'demo screen' when the unit isn't plugged into anything.  However, the good news is that the unit is actually faster than that spec by 1 gh/s and under original spec power by a little over 100w.

I'll help contribute toward your Mini Rig fund ;)

I'd like to buy 10 of your atx Single plugs. (Sending a PM)

BFL, one thing that I noticed in a different thread/pics was that there appeared to be 4 posts (threaded rod?) up the middle, presumably for structural reasons. Is there a handle of some kind on top, that perhaps mounts to those? I can't tell very well from the pictures. Additionally, I believe another user wanted to know the approximate weight.

No handle - just under 50lb

Wow! I wonder what the Rig Box would have weighed. ;D

The enclosure is the same minus an extra PSU...   the top portions are empty cavity....  but weight would have been about 80lb or so.  There's lots and lots of aluminum in there to keep things cool.

Soooo.. about how many mini rigs are you putting out initially?  ;D These things look great.. excellent job all around. And even a bit better than spec.  :o

FWIW, BFGMiner 2.4.3 (https://bitcointalk.org/?topic=78192) has some very basic support for the MiniRig now. Hoping to have completely updated drivers to take advantage of the MiniRig better in the next version (and also in CGMiner), but this should be enough to get miners going for now.

what dimensions?

A very nice piece of hardware. There are things I don't like about the company but the products rock.

MINIRIG BOX ON MARKET?
GPU firestorm sale in 3... 2... 1...

Have these shipped yet and or has anyone got one up and running  - I would like to purchase one if they are truly available. Butterfly, what is your current ship time if I place an order at the end of next week?  - Are you still supporting the self host option with a mounted Raspberry Pi Board mounted inside?

One Final question does the current software configs allow for both solo and pooled mining with this device?


Thanks

David