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http://pjmedia.com/zombie/2012/04/23/book-review-did-muhammad-exist-by-robert-spencer/

Scholars have for centuries been pursuing clues to “the historical Jesus” — evidence that the religious figure now known as Jesus Christ actually once existed as a real person. There have been hundreds, if not thousands, of popular books, documentaries, television programs, magazine articles, research papers, films and more on the search for the “real” Jesus. While this investigation into the ultimate origins of Christianity may have once long ago been controversial, it is by now quite commonplace and accepted as a standard part of religious studies, even when the researchers conclude (as they often do) that the evidence for the historicity of Jesus is skimpy at best.

But no similar investigations have ever been conducted on the historicity of Muhammad (a.k.a. Mohammed, depending on the Arabic transliteration). Why not?

Most people assume that no one bothers to investigate whether or not Muhammad was a real person for the same reason that no one bothers to investigate the reality of other religious founders such as Joseph Smith or Martin Luther or Anton LaVey — because the evidence for their existence is overwhelming, well-documented and unquestioned. Regardless of whether or not Muhammad’s teachings were moral or useful, everyone, even the most hardened infidels, of course accepts that he must have existed. Right?

Well, actually, no.......

What are you trying to achieve with this topic?

Flame war obviously.

any chance you read the subject line ?

what is a flame war never heard of it ?

I understand the question at hand very well - it is not what I am asking for. Any chance you can read my question?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=What+is+a+flame+war%3F

I can't help you if you can't comprehend a question :(

Oh I thought maybe you would cite me a date and time of the war called "flame war"  . No, asking a question isn't starting a flame war.

You didn't ask a question, you asked a loaded question with a paragraph of your evidence against the question. This is a rhetorical question, in that it was never meant to be answered. That is why anyone with a brain thinks you're trolling. Good day.

:(

http://spencerwatch.com/    

http://spencerwatch.com/2012/04/25/temple-university-philadelphia-protestors-condemn-geller-and-spencers-irrational-hatred/

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/03/the-understanding-jihad-series-is-islam-more-likely-than-other-religions-to-encourage-violence/

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/03/warrior-prophet-moses-or-muhammad/

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/01/spencer-distorts-egyptian-society-spreads-interfaith-bigotry/

http://www.loonwatch.com/2009/11/the-churchs-doctrine-of-perpetual-servitude-was-worse-than-dhimmitude/

http://www.islamophobiatoday.com

http://whatiftheyweremuslim.com/2012/04/20/shaul-spitzer-teen-gets-prison-in-religious-dispute-firebomb/

http://whatiftheyweremuslim.com/2012/04/17/richard-hess-says-god-told-him-to-kill-terrorist-neighbors-believe-it-or-not-the-cops-didnt-buy-that-one/

I named my truck Mohammad, but then I changed it to Mongo.

Doesn't sound so much like a "phobia" as it does a proper bit of research into the history as available. The article appears to lay out many logical conclusions, but I would have to read the book and all its sources before making a profound statement of my own.

I've never understood why people take such offense to things all he posted was protests ?  I'm a islamophobia now I suppose for asking the question and giving some logical statements to back up that thinking.

Clearly a question existed loaded or not it is there. I just threw in what the current thinking is.

so who , what , is mohamed?  defiantly isn't a person ? Is it a carrot ?  what is it  ? why can't anyone explain this ?

The reason this is a problem and issue that needs to be raised is people are dying/being jailed because of a false deity ?

http://news.yahoo.com/egypts-most-popular-comedian-adel-imam-guilty-insulting-152733011--abc-news-topstories.html

You "defiantly" be trollin'.

I will say that, though I am no religious scholar, I can asure you that Mohamed was not an "it", nor was he a carrot.

That is just it you can't claim something if it never existed - moses, adam, jesus, jacob are all well documented as existing  you would think there would be some sort of documentation or mention of this supposed prophet/messenger somewhere? Imagine debating a “Christian” about religion, and he never mentions the Bible, Christianity, or Jesus. You might begin to doubt that he was a Christian at all. Something like 80 years after he was dictating stuff  does he supposedly show up.

"Arabic documents and artifacts, there is no mention of or example of any Qur’anic text until the year 691, a full 80 years after Muhammad supposedly started dictating it"


Christianity isn't at fault for the attack on Americans by Islamic radicals. You realize muslims, jews, hindus you name it where all killed on 9/11 - so does that make it a "crusade" in retaliation ?   You can try to frame it that way but it doesn't hold water. I mean I might as well just make up stuff also right ?

great insight.  ::)

In the Bible? Where else?

that's the point they are actually mentioned we can't say the same about mohammed. You would think there would have been hundreds of articles , research papers around Mohammed?

So your issue is that Muhammad is not in the Bible?

Basically, there is nothing documenting Muhammad actually existed in whatever form you want to make up - prophet/messenger - the mailboy  .

This is provably false, there are many manuscripts in many languages that have mention of these subjects, dating from the time that they existed.
You can go read them yourself in the Vatican City, but you will need (at the very least) a PhD and special permission.

I find threads like these incredibly disrespectful.
The logic is shitty, and all the OP tries to do is draw someone out and tell him he's wrong.
"I'm going to puke up a whole bunch of shitty arguments, and then wait for my opponent to slip up. Hilarity ensues."

Smooth moves, GGB. You get 2/10.

If this is true just more creepy shit out of the religious orgs. Once I was out of catholic school they stopped bothering me so whatever.

Senbonzakura, does the average muslim want to tell me what to believe, or just educate me about their beliefs in the hope I will find it worthy?

Wtf you talking about. It's disrespectful to find the truth in something and not lies ?  Just because you don't like it then don't read it.

Unfortuantly, you didn't provide any facts on anything ? You just attacked with a islamaphobia links and wierd sites like looney something ....The links I looked at where protests to Robert Spencer which means nothing just shows people are unwilling to look at the facts because the truth hurts.  You keep referring to wikipedia and  Mohammed being #1  that doesn't mean he existed? Just shows a lot of people have been fooled.  Try to give some real facts.

You pretty much can get your answer by reading his responses. This is typical of most muslims is they immediately get defensive and post irrelevant information and try to tell you what to believe.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

Yep, this is why I try my hardest not to get sucked in to an argument, although it gets difficult at times.

But I do find it... shall we say ...interesting... that nothing has been found to have been written or recorded about Mohammed during his lifetime or within a century thereafter. I dunno, maybe the manuscripts got burnt in a fire.

Alright, OP. Fuck you. Show me proof that you're right, and I'll leave you alone.
And don't come up in here with "I'm just making a discussion, not trying to prove anything,"
because you are doing something quite different.
Prove to all of us that your implied statement of "Mohammed didn't exist and Islam is bullshit," and we'll all go home and give this a rest.

where now?

Jesus specifically, can you please find me some sort of proof he existed as a living human?

I do not believe Jesus Christ existed as man or god, and i am yet to see any evidence to the contrary.

you are missing the point. There are many people who are researching, trying to document and asking questions in regards to Jesus  - thousands of historians to scholars to you name it have written papers around jesus and Christianity.

As for Islam/Mohammed nobody is bothering to do the same because guess what!?? there is NOTHING let me repeat NOTHING to go by or to reference because GUESS what!?? he never existed ??? don't you find this odd  that people find someone so influential and claim he existed but there is nothing in regards to him documented ? I mean when was the last time you heard of some islamic scholar  doing heavy research into Mohammed's existence on the same level of Christianity and jesus? Like NEVER.  Might be because that would be "offensive" to islam if you do so ( good excuse to avoid anyone doing research).  Then when you bring it up you are branded as a racist islomophia (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=78314.msg872204#msg872204) ?? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..............

God, someone who has a total idea of what's going on in muslim countries finally figured it out! Muslims aren't trying to prove their prophet existed! Therefore, he never existed! You heard it here, folks. We have ourselves a genius among us...
http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/genius-rage-face.png

I never thought of this that Muhammad never existed. But I am skeptical that Abraham, Moses, or Jacob existed. For all we know Jews at that time were just a Canaanite tribe, they were never in Egypt as they fantasized.

Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are part of the same family of religions and technically, worship the same god: Allah/Jehovah/YHWH.  Allah/Jehovah/YHWH is a god of war, and this why those three are associated with wars and conquests. (don't take this too seriously) :) But do contrast those three with Buddhism.

There are peaceful offshoots from Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. Such as Gnosticism, Baha'i, Rosicrucianism, and Freemasonry.

Well, then that's fine. I was more asking about the general culture, though, not you in particular. For example there are many christians who don't really care what others believe one way or the other, then there is a subset of evangelicals and brainwashers. In my experience ( mostly in the US midwest), the former far outweigh the latter although the latter have placed themselves in some positions of power.

I have to ask.....

After seeing (or even reading) The DaVinci Code, did you suddenly become an expert (like the rest of the world, strangely enough at the time) and begin to openly debate 'The Holy Grail', Mary Magdalene, The Knights Templar and Tom Hank's hair piece ?

Can you prove that Tom Hank's hair piece in that film actually existed ?

I couldn't agree more that Abraham, Moses, or Jacob existed but at least there is an active search to find out we can't say the same about Mohammed because there is basically 99.9percent certainty he didn't - that is why nobody is actively researching or questioning him like they do of Abraham, Moses, or Jacob that you speak of.  HUGE difference which should allow us to ask the question: Did Muhammad a.k.a Mohammed actually exist ?  And when you do your typically labeled some sort of islam hater or something.

I read that article when you first posted it a while ago, in another thread, IIRC I agree with the article. But I wasn't asking you to compare Muhammad with Moses, but Muhammad or Moses with Buddha.

To me Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are more or less the same thing. Christianity is Judaism 2.0, and Islam si Judaism 3.0. Mormons are Judaism 2.5. :)

You misread me. I think the percentage is higher that Abraham, Moses, or Jacob didn't exist than Muhammad.

When those countries will change, then that impression will change too. If the Vatican or Poland was stoning people to death or burning them at the stake, don't you think that would be added to image of the Catholic Church besides pedophilia?


From the same link:

I will solve this whole debate/argument.

All religious movements at the end of the day can and eventually will (if it gains enough traction) turn into a social outcast demolarization hate machine. Any of the 3 main abrahamic religions dominating the world today all have a centric holier than thou sheep movement by their followers, some wont directly show it, but its very clear that given the chance they will think they are superior because of their religious choice(indoctrination) and not by what they add to the world in terms of compassion, intellect, productivity or any other common non-religious decent thing every human should strive to.

I cant wait for the day, more than likely in my lifetime, that we can all look back at the people with the silly hats and the crazy eyes and know we all became equals atleast on the front of  thinking for ourself and not some ghost buster goon.

This is where it really helps to know what you talk about. The Qur’an refer directly to Jesus, Moses, Abraham,Jacob , its afterall one of the 3 abrahamic religions o_0

Muhammed refers to these characters aswell so its easy to defunc right there because if you have any "believe" that these characters didnt exist then we solved the mysterday of Mohammed not existing either or an absolute liar ;)

Btw there is 100% good reason to dispute any existance of god unless you can finally get some religious nutter to take a photo of their godly interactions ;D

I don't care about islam... at all... you said there is proof of jesus and i would like to see it.

Muhammad and his family are all buried in KSA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_places_of_founders_of_world_religions#Islam

Jesus unfortunately was supposed to have reanimated from the grave and his body disappeared according to myth so you won't find a dead Jesus it would kind of invalidate everything. Did he really exist? Probably. Just like David Koresh, L Ron Hubbard, Joseph Smith and the founder of the Raelians exist or existed. Was Jesus actually a messenger of God or supernatural being? Uhhh was L Ron Hubbard? Can the leader of the Falun Dafa actually fly through walls? Did Marshall Applewhite aka Do of the Heaven's Gate cult actually hitch a ride on an invisible spaceship comet? Depends on your analytical thinking.

hmm you didn't answer my question. Is the average muslim person more interested in telling me what to believe or, conversely, educating me about their beliefs in the hope I will think they make sense?

There is no point to it other than to get an answer from a muslim. In my own experience, the everyday christian doesn't really care much whether you believe or not at all. I personally think they are all scams because... who is this asshole that is telling me he knows what happens after I die?

Actually, fundamental muslim and christian laws are the same, convert the non-believers. Sure christianity might seem to alot in western society as "more civil" today however the core fundamentals is allmost identical, just replace mohammed with jesus or vica versa.

The one thing about muslims is that they tend to be more fundamental still, perhaps that is due to them being a younger religion and at the pace the world moves today they might catch up to how christians cherrypick everything that they want to follow in the bible nowadays.

Eitherway, they are both great fiction, special the old testaments where one could seriously write some great horror shows from.

There are countries where suggesting or debating that the Koran was a creative work by this guy instead of the pure unadultered word of Allah as passed by his vessel will get you a death sentence (just like leaving the faith will get you a death sentence, or getting raped). That is why you have the fervor about Muhammad being just a man, and the ban on idolizing or drawing images of him and such, since the origin story of the Koran must be downplayed; anyone could have presumably been chosen by god to record his laws.

@girlsgonebitcoin  You should watch this History Channel special about Muhhamad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4EL8RVDD_c

Proof for the existence of Muhammad is available from the Orthodox Church he took refuge in when the Arabs tried to kill him at the beginning of his ministry.

Personally, I believe that Muhammad was possessed by an evil spirit during his meditation while in a cave.

Muhammad is the tree and Islam is the fruit of Muhammads labor. You can tell a tree by it's fruit. Good and evil are the fruits of the tree.

Proof that Jesus lived, died and was resurrected exists via the Garden Tomb and Golgotha. Roman inscriptions in a cave ,dated to the 1st century, mocking Jesus on the cross by showing him having a horse head.
(Does that mean MNW is the second coming in the flesh?)
Proof that Moses did exist, though their dating is incorrect, is available at the Red Sea crossing and the mountain onto which God descended as fire in Midian (Saudi Arabia).
Proof that Noah did exist, his boat was discovered in Turkey, there's a visitor center and everything. http://www.arkdiscovery.com/noah's_ark.htm
Proof that Lot did exist and the proof of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah exists.

More proof of Biblical events taking place await your research @ http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/biblehistorydaily/

You obviously don't understand how possession works. Invalid logic is not valid.

Obviously he did.  :-\

It is an incomplete comment. My dog was bugging the crap out of me to feed it and i sent it prematurely.

That's from a clip of "Ancient Aliens", another of my favorite History channel shows. ;D

Garden tomb... just no

the alexamenos graffito is interesting, but jesus was not the only person crucified and that may not even be depicting a crucifixion... If it is proof of jesus, it is proof he was an ass lol

thats some early arse toilet wall art though

The Garden Tomb and surrounding area matches 99.99% of the text description in the New Testament as to the location of crucifiction and burial of Jesus the Christ.
To review the evidence supporting this, see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYIwjYN4JVo