Bitcoin Forum

Part 1: [Google Video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8137185398743302029)][YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTKh9aP7kyI)]
Part 2: [Google Video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8903112019958738510)][YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESlB6yz1p2U)]
Part 3: [Google Video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3160326442882912356)][YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKS3353D0-U)]

No transcript ?

haven't watched it yet, but it seems it's about the old lie again that only some kind of eco-dictatorship can save us. Nothing can be further from the truth. Liberty and sustainability are not opposites. Quite the contrary.

Our modern lifestyle is a creation of the central control of money supply and our dependency on oil through the military-industrial complex. They're the ones who created today's environmental problems in the first place. Our lives would look quite different without these powers. Much more decentralized, much freer, much "greener".

Local complementary currencies and P2P credit systems are almost by definition "more liberty" and automatically lead to more decentralized, resilient, regional economic circles (http://www.scribd.com/doc/26248658/Is-Our-Monetary-Structure-a-Systemic-Cause-for-Financial-Instability-Bernard-Lietaer).

Hemp can be grown locally, is of extremely high biological value, is a great substitute for fossil oils and plastic, and prevents deforestation (http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/ncnu02/v5-284.html).

The videos are against sustainable development (Agenda 21) and pro Liberty.

Sustainable development has absolutely nothing to do with sustainability.

 no

Yeah, this is really more like three choices.

Individualism or collectivism
Development or non-development
Sustainability or consumerism

That's your indoctrination talking.

It's soft totalitarianism... for now, but its getting harder and harder each day.

Its about the mob telling you what you can and cannot do with your own personal property.

It has nothing to do with sustainability.

It's about wealth stealing, redistribution of wealth, control, and the end of personal property.

It's about elites regaining all the worlds property and total control of the mob  through NGO's, treasonous treaty ratification, compromised governments and representatives, public private partnerships, and the end of liberty and property rights ... its about controlling you.

Go read the UN Charter and the Agenda 21 UNCED Action Plan.

Oh I understand what they think it is.  But in reality, it's easy to live sustainably while ignoring them and their fearmongering.

the problem is you can not ignore them.

they are everywhere, right down to your local municipalities and city council, all the way up to the state, feds, and international orgs.

maybe you should watch the videos.

theres a new movie coming out called http://beholdapalehorse.tv/

So you have this massive conspiracy and not a word written down ?  Seems a tad far fetched don't you think?

It's clear Hawker, You are a communist and an agitator who attacks American Constitutional ideals. You are an enemy of the Republic for which I stand. God have mercy on your soul.

You sound indoctrinated, brainwashed, and like someone who is letting their political agenda get in the way of clear thinking. You might get past it some day. Think harder. Put aside your pet ideology for a change, make a clean slate, and think.

Go read the UN Charter.

Go Read the Agenda 21 UNCED Action Plan.

Go Read the 10 Planks of the Communist Manifesto.

Then go research the people, families, businesses, and tax-exempt foundations that created, supported, and funded them,a nd who continues to support and fund them.

Go read your municipal zoning ordinance  legislation.

Go read enviromental legislation.

Go read up on sustainable development in your area. Its everywhere.

Then compare them all to whats happening in the world today from the international agencies right down to your local municipal and city councils, and all spots in between.

Thats enough "written down" info to last you a while.

and please stop attacking the messenger with your ad-hominem attacks, and try debating the message... if you can.

You are delusional.  Making silly ad hominem comments doesn't get around facts.

i agree:

The problem with all the "go read this law" or "go watch that video" stuff is that it rests on a fallacy.  Just because you can show that there is a match between some of what someone said and what actually happened doesn't mean there is causation.  

I can show that the development of banking has followed the pattern set out in the Prototcols of the Elders of Zion.  But that does not prove that the book was real or that there is a causation relationship.  It only proves that there are a certain amount of hours in the day to spare for conspiracy theories and that I chose this book for mine.  You seem to have chosen the Communist Manifesto for your hours that you can spare for conspiracy theories.  There used be a very active group on these forums who chose David Icke for their conspiracy theories.  The important thing here is that no-one can read all the books with their vague mumbo jumbo.  You need to be able to focus on proximate causes, like we can believe George W Bush planned to invade Iraq because of his actions and words but not that he planned 911.

In this thread, you don't seem to have any such link.  Its all exhortation to "go waste weeks reading and watching youtube" which I either can answer "go waste weeks reading and watching youtube" or ask you to provide something concrete.

Look buddy, dont try to pidgeon-hole me with your pseudo-intellectual plausible deniability hogwash mental meanderings.

I dont need to have a PHD to know that when my kid is always sick on wednesdays, and the teacher always has a pop quiz on wednesdays, that she doesnt want to take a pop quiz or has not prepared for it. I can add.

You are a Marxist plain and simple. This is not an ad-hominem attack but my opinion from reading much of your litany. We get it. You dont want to work and have everything provided for you paid for by people who do work. We get it ... and you think the overthrow of nation states by lies, manipulation, propaganda, indoctrination and global governance would give that to you if it ever were to ocurr, but it would be the end of you, son. The end of us all. You and those like you are our mortal enemy, and we would destroy you and those like you if ever given the opportunity if you dont change your ways. You have been manipulated and indoctrinated. If not, then you are just plain evil that needs to be destroyed.

Your no causation bullshit and plausible deniability innuendo might be a hinge-pin in deciding guilt or innocence in a corrupted court of law, but thats not the issue here.

While I do care about the history and who, what, when, where, why and how, those are the least important aspects that we can do nothing about, except to use them as evidence that this usurpation can happen and is happening before our eyes, so we can educate and awaken others so that we might be able to come together to combat them.

The facts that need to be taken away from here are that they are doing it and need to be stopped before we have nothing left to defend.

Yeah right - all of us Marxists vote conservative.  

/sarcasm.

I repeat my point and question.  Just because your favourite conspiracy theory "works" describing your world does not make it valid.  Everyone who has a conspiracy theory believes theirs "works."  You happen to like the Marxist theory.  Others prefer the lizard men theory.  But that only tells us about you...it says nothing about what is happening in the world.

Talking your sick kid example, she may get sick every Wednesday because there is a pop quiz.  Or there may be a supply teacher who she only has on Wednesdays who she is afraid of.  Or the Wednesday bus driver may be doing things that make her want to stay at home.  Your theory "works" but that doesn't mean its proven true.  I suggest you ask her and her teacher and get some real facts before jumping to conclusions.

In this case, you have a conspiracy theory with nothing to show by way real facts.  Can you not show something factual that suggests an underlying conspiracy as opposed to a natural disagreement about degree of liberty as opposed to degree of sustainability?

No. What you need to do is, for a temporary period of time, discard your pet ideology and beliefs from your mind, make the slate blank, and then start evaluating the dynamics of the system.

Forget about policies, laws, and institutions. Go back to first principles. Those are human greed, the net energy available on Earth per unit time, the inter dynamic symbiosis of the Earth's natural systems, and lastly, the trajectory of the Earth's natural capital over time.

If you don't have a solid grasp of those four concepts, then just put a zipper on your mouth until you do. I suspect that all of your rhetoric is the result of absorbing material from gas bags who derive solutions based on their beliefs in certain pet ideologies. Utterly useless.

Learn about the four concepts I enumerated, and then apply intelligent analysis. Demonstrate to me that you have knowledge with regard to that, or just stop posting.

I don't agree with the idea of private land ownership.  Are the San Bushman of Africa that own no land free?  How can you say that aren't free? They can build a house anywhere they want without permits.  Government laws are necessary on land to protect the native flora and fauna due to human overpopulation.  The Tule Elk of California, were save by a rich private landowner because he puts rules on his land before government.

Renting land to put your home or business on for free makes you free.

The choice is a false choice. It is a classic logical fallacy. Sustainable development and liberty do not have to be exclusive. The problem is the consumption patterns and planned obsolescence. The current system rewards wastefulness. Don't destroy liberty to get sustainability, build a BETTER more sustainable system and people will use it because it works! As people in America get more and more broke and as our currency devalues people will be BEGGING for sustainable alternatives because the grid system will no longer be affordable. The key is education, not removal of rights.

Just to nitpick, Hawker is not a Marxist.  He is a right-wing welfare-queen aka "soldier".

Consider that desiring private land ownership, desiring zero regulations, and desiring no taxes are wants, i.e. desires. Basing decisions on desires, and then working backwards to show that those desires are justified is just that, backwards.

A forward analysis is necessary instead.

Steelhouse, as an aside, you should read the book Rewilding North America, by Dave Foreman.

Um, what?

I agree with what you're saying here. But it's necessary to not presume that the desires of libertarians are compatible with conservation, efficiency and preservation.

Everyone should read Progress and Poverty by Henry George.

Here's a question (actually two questions) for you:

What was the limiting factor of the annual global fish haul in 1800?

What is the limiting factor of the annual global fish haul today?

You should be able to get a land lease for free in rural areas.  In cities you should pay a tax based on size of lot, not value of property. 

Won't the owners of the land object to that?  You will compel them to give their land for free to others and to pay property taxes.  That sounds like expropriation to me.

Nobody should own land except government.  The government would tax the land at the fair rental value of existing landowners. 

Okay, so "theoretically".  The problem is that this doesn't work in theory.  Let's say the government or whoever leases you some rural land for free.  Even though most rural land is pretty cheap, it still has value.  And it's not too difficult for you to destroy much of that value, by burning down all the vegetation or dumping trash or tilling it up and ruining the topsoil.  Furthermore, without ownership there is zero incentive to make improvements.  It's not that other systems are perfect, of course.  But under your system, by definition, the land loses value and everyone is worse off except for the moocher who gets a free land lease of course.  Are you not in the least bit familiar with the communal farming failures of the Soviet Union and Mao's China?  Hell, the American dust bowl even?

Neither this nor unregulated private land ownership are solutions for sustainability.

Does the irony of this statement completely elude you?  Private ownership isn't the problem.  Overpopulation is the problem.  And overpopulation is caused by incompetent governments that encourage population growth by forcibly re-distributing property to the irresponsible.

In 1800 it was the number of boats, and today it is the number of fish farms.

Malthus made a big mistake and George stated it clearly, more people more chickens.  Agriculture also increases geometrically.

But, eventually you will hit the end of land with agriculture and genetically modified foods.  Then that is the limit of population, when every blade of grass is used for food production.

I think it is very necessary to presume that they are aligned if properly implemented. If introduced properly large scale sustainability wins every time. The better system ALWAYS wins.  It is a more profitable and efficient solution - the goal of every libertarian along with preserving individual freedom. The problem is a small group control a cluster of industrial monopolies and are suppressing TONS of efficient, inexpensive, sustainable technologies legally and illegally. By saying it is necessary to not presume, you are also saying by default you should presume they are exclusive. My exact point is they are not exclusive. Education of the masses is key.

The scarcity problem is an ILLUSION created by the SLASH AND BURN planned obsolescence economy. An OBSOLETE dying system. Proper technology put to use could solve ALL of these problems. Don't destroy the freedom of the individual destroy the machine that destroys the most resources (ie monopolies & cartels). This is a classical cognitive dissonance pattern designed to get you to agree to give up your rights in a time of artificially enhanced chaos.

 Also I feel I must state here that I don't think corporations should have all the same protections as "a man on the land" or a living being (a "person" is a legal fiction by definition).  The law needs more common law enforcement and less maritime contract law where the real theft resources from nature occurs. As an American with a birth certificate I am chattel property of the federal reserve as a bond on the federal debt. Look it up. This is all contract law, not common law as the country used to be more reliant upon. The key is resurgence and support of common law, especially at local, county, and state level.

To summarize don't worry about tearing down the current system - it is destroying itself. Worry about building the better system to displace it.

I have yet to see a proper working implementation. I'm open to suggestions though.


The problem is when everyone deploys their own solution with regard to what they do with their own land. Mostly, I see unregulated private land ownership resulting in decimation.


Freedom is a concept independent of sustainability.


I am in agreement that our economy encourages waste. I am in disagreement that scarcity is an illusion.

No it won't.  The limiting factor will be some obscure micronutrient like Flerovium that you didn't even know existed.  And by the time you learn about it, it will be too late.  There are already issues with the nutritional content (or lack thereof) of GM foods.  It doesn't matter how big or how cheap your grapefruits are if they don't provide the same nutrition as the organic version.  You will end up obese and unhealthy trying to eat enough to be satiated.

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/9181#comment-892265

There already is a limiting factor with regard to the global annual fish haul, and it serves as an accurate barometer for natural capital in general. The limiting factor is the number of fish.

I thought Alex Jones was scary until I watched these videos. He was only scratching the surface of the true depth of the crime. The Beast is already active and his law is about to come into effect. Since the Constitution was based upon principles in the Bible it appears the first thing to be attacked by the UN was the Constitution. "A Declaration of world Citizenship", WTF.
We are in some deep doodoo.

Give me liberty or give me.... sustainable development!

Sustainable development requires regulation. So you're correct, one or the other, but not both. A perfectly free market will not yield a steady state economy. What it will yield is a very efficient exploitation of the lowest hanging fruit. Just look at both history and in the contemporary economy for numerous examples.

Your first statement is complete horse shit. Put the word "sustainable" into YouTube and see how many people are taking action thru education and implementing local sustainable development BECAUSE IT WORKS not because some jackboot forced them to!

Examples of entities engaging in implementing sustainable development is not evidence of a lack of entities developing super efficient methods to exploit dwindling resources, nor evidence of the lack of entities taking advantage of harvesting the lowest hanging fruit. It's really important to understand that.

It is more important to understand reality, than semantics. Your narrow view of reality is in fact SUPPORTING the very thing you think you are fighting. There have been many publicly documented plans for decades to use green initiatives and "sustainable development" as a mechanism for implementing world government, and more importantly international global taxes. Look into what the IMF and The World bank are doing lately?

You are fighting for an illusion, and you are the vehicle of delivery of this plan running around spouting lots of indirect and obfuscating rhetoric to which you provide no substance, directly serving these corrupt cartels you claim to have distaste for. These are not stupid people. They have a method to sell to everyone, anything they want. An abuse for every belief system. I suggest you type less and read more.

There is nothing obfuscating or indirect about my posts. One needs to only look at humanity and observe. Of course it helps if you're willing to commit yourself to actually learn and research facts, rather than insist that some particular political ideology will magically make the nature of greed disappear.

You are applying some perceived ideological prejudice you have upon me and not listening to the words I am speaking, but instead being refractory. My very point from the beginning is that committing to education, and facts is what will dismantle the problem, because sustainable systems ARE BETTER and more efficient. Bottom line, the current system is BOUND to fail, and can not continue in a physical sense. Political ideology has nothing to do with it.