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Other => Politics & Society => Topic started by: Nyaaan on May 07, 2012, 02:31:58 PM



Title: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: Nyaaan on May 07, 2012, 02:31:58 PM
I need to find one ASAP


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: Foxpup on May 07, 2012, 07:19:18 PM
Right here. It's called the Internet. It seems to work pretty well all things considered.


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: terrytibbs on May 07, 2012, 07:24:26 PM
Right here. It's called the Internet. It seems to work pretty well all things considered.
brb calling the internet police
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BhGNDtyuug#t=18s


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: Sultan on May 07, 2012, 07:54:54 PM
I need to find one ASAP

Have you tried Somalia?


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: Hawker on May 07, 2012, 09:26:04 PM
I need to find one ASAP

You can't - humans always gang up and appoint leaders.  There never had been nor will there every be a society without a publicly enforced government or violently enforced political authority.

to the guy saying the Internet is anarchy, stop being silly.  The Internet is a government creation and if the government wanted, the Internet as we know it can be turned off by ICANN, a body whose members are government appointed and whose very existence depends on the government.


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: Foxpup on May 08, 2012, 08:53:45 AM
to the guy saying the Internet is anarchy, stop being silly.  The Internet is a government creation and if the government wanted, the Internet as we know it can be turned off by ICANN, a body whose members are government appointed and whose very existence depends on the government.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah, ICANN has this big red button with key switches on either side of it, which has the magical ability to force arbitrary network operators (even those outside the US) to do whatever ICANN wants (most are already doing what ICANN wants, but only because ICANN doesn't want to "turn off" the Internet). Though it was never fully explained to me just how it works exactly... ::)

Seriously though, the power that ICANN and other governing bodies have over the Internet is purely voluntary. If their decisions prove unpopular, network operators can and will simply ignore them, except where required by local laws (and sometimes even then).


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: JoelKatz on May 08, 2012, 09:12:01 AM
I need to find one ASAP

Have you tried Somalia?
And, strangely, they are getting the benefits of anarchy along with the, umm, slight inconveniences.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12278628


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: Hawker on May 08, 2012, 09:30:45 AM
to the guy saying the Internet is anarchy, stop being silly.  The Internet is a government creation and if the government wanted, the Internet as we know it can be turned off by ICANN, a body whose members are government appointed and whose very existence depends on the government.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah, ICANN has this big red button with key switches on either side of it, which has the magical ability to force arbitrary network operators (even those outside the US) to do whatever ICANN wants (most are already doing what ICANN wants, but only because ICANN doesn't want to "turn off" the Internet). Though it was never fully explained to me just how it works exactly... ::)

Seriously though, the power that ICANN and other governing bodies have over the Internet is purely voluntary. If their decisions prove unpopular, network operators can and will simply ignore them, except where required by local laws (and sometimes even then).

Exactly.  ICANN can told to stop DNS working and local ISPs can be told to close down.  The Internet is not in a state of anarchy - its regulated.


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: asdf on May 08, 2012, 09:25:54 PM
I need to find one ASAP

Have you tried Somalia?
And, strangely, they are getting the benefits of anarchy along with the, umm, slight inconveniences.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12278628


Yep, business is thriving in Somalia, but they still "need" a government for "stability". Though the article never mentions what the instability is. Perhaps stability is just a synonym for government? Never mind that the previous Government destroyed the country. Lots of opinion, no sources or justification.

I hope Somalia continues it's course toward a free society and rejects the attempts by the UN to install a democracy.


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: check_status on May 09, 2012, 03:12:22 AM
If it is anarchy you want, then join the CIA. It is their stock in trade. They will teach you marketing skills, weapons and bomb making, interrogation,  and any other skill that can be used to be disruptive and overthrow governments (including in the US). Their goal is hell on earth.


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: faidsaid on May 09, 2012, 03:18:36 AM
I need to find one ASAP
Somalia, the Libertarian wet dream. Please go there.


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: MarketNeutral on May 09, 2012, 03:19:07 AM
In your mind.


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: steelhouse on May 09, 2012, 08:51:57 PM

I hope Somalia continues it's course toward a free society and rejects the attempts by the UN to install a democracy.

So true.  Somalia does not need to make the mistake of the Europe or the United States again.  Governments start out protecting the people, in the end they steal from the people.  I did notice there is still law in Somalia.  If you lived in a gated community and your business had guards Somalia would be better off without any government. 


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: Hawker on May 09, 2012, 10:00:09 PM

I hope Somalia continues it's course toward a free society and rejects the attempts by the UN to install a democracy.

So true.  Somalia does not need to make the mistake of the Europe or the United States again.  Governments start out protecting the people, in the end they steal from the people.  I did notice there is still law in Somalia.  If you lived in a gated community and your business had guards Somalia would be better off without any government. 

In the article you guys are basing all the Somali optimism on, it clearly says that Somalia is living off remittances.  Its people are having to go abroad to work in countries that have governments and send money home.

That is not something they are happy with.  It explains why there is a large Somali population in London - they like having a state.


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: asdf on May 10, 2012, 10:06:15 PM

I hope Somalia continues it's course toward a free society and rejects the attempts by the UN to install a democracy.

So true.  Somalia does not need to make the mistake of the Europe or the United States again.  Governments start out protecting the people, in the end they steal from the people.  I did notice there is still law in Somalia.  If you lived in a gated community and your business had guards Somalia would be better off without any government. 

In the article you guys are basing all the Somali optimism on, it clearly says that Somalia is living off remittances.  Its people are having to go abroad to work in countries that have governments and send money home.

That is not something they are happy with.  It explains why there is a large Somali population in London - they like having a state.

Yes, Hawker. A free society is impossible. We get it.


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: kangasbros on May 11, 2012, 09:41:17 AM
LOL. I hope some libertarian goes to Somalia, and makes documentary about how great the somalian society is.


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: TECSHARE on May 12, 2012, 02:18:27 AM
Watch MESA:Living off The Grid - you can become one of those faggy vegan communists "Nowhere Kids" robbing broke people that bleed for everything they have and then tell them they are "hoarding".


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: check_status on May 12, 2012, 04:11:20 AM
LOL. I hope some libertarian goes to Somalia, and makes documentary about how great the somalian society is.
Didn't Dr. Danger already do that?


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: malevolent on May 28, 2012, 05:25:39 PM
So true.  Somalia does not need to make the mistake of the Europe or the United States again.  Governments start out protecting the people, in the end they steal from the people.  I did notice there is still law in Somalia.  If you lived in a gated community and your business had guards Somalia would be better off without any government. 
In the article you guys are basing all the Somali optimism on, it clearly says that Somalia is living off remittances.  Its people are having to go abroad to work in countries that have governments and send money home.
That is not something they are happy with.  It explains why there is a large Somali population in London - they like having a state.
[/quote]

Read this:
http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1880
http://www.independent.org/pdf/working_papers/64_somalia.pdf


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: Hawker on May 29, 2012, 07:15:58 AM
So true.  Somalia does not need to make the mistake of the Europe or the United States again.  Governments start out protecting the people, in the end they steal from the people.  I did notice there is still law in Somalia.  If you lived in a gated community and your business had guards Somalia would be better off without any government.  
In the article you guys are basing all the Somali optimism on, it clearly says that Somalia is living off remittances.  Its people are having to go abroad to work in countries that have governments and send money home.
That is not something they are happy with.  It explains why there is a large Somali population in London - they like having a state.

Read this:
http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1880
http://www.independent.org/pdf/working_papers/64_somalia.pdf
[/quote]

Yes.  It says that the Xeer legal system worked fine for a short while and then "In 2004, the Transitional Federal Government (TFG) was created in exile with U.N. backing. In February 2006 it entered Somalia, and so far, controls only the town of Baidoa."

The result was war and famine which continues to this day.

That is the essential problem with anarchy.  You might have a working system within your small community and you might be able to live off remittances.  But you won't be left alone.  In Somalia's case, the US, Ethiopia and Eritrea all have armed proxies operating in the country.  In Afghanistan's case, you have the US and NATO on the ground along with proxy armies of India and Pakistan.  If you don't have your own state, this is what happens.


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: fergalish on June 04, 2012, 09:41:53 AM
LOL. I hope some libertarian goes to Somalia, and makes documentary about how great the somalian society is.
We should organise a reward for any libertarian on the forum (with many pro-libertarian posts) who is willing to travel to Somalia, provably live like a peasant in the city for 12 months, documenting their lives as they go with photos etc, then come back and tell us if it was great or not.  I'd offer $100 for that.

Secondly, the article talks about, for example, how great telecomms is in Somalia - 9 networks offering services from texting to mobile internet.  I wonder how easy it would be for a new small operator to break into that market - would the existing operators welcome the new competition?  Or would the new operator find his telecomms masts sabotaged?  Or high pricing for rental space on existing masts?  Or maybe his staff threatened?  No law = mafia-esque regulation of the market.  Now don't go telling me the current (western) situation is not much better (e.g. oil, telecomms, agri, industries lobbying to legally protect their market share).  I know.


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: RodeoX on June 05, 2012, 02:13:01 PM
Everybody loves anarchy until I shoot them in the gut, leave them for dead and take their wife as a slave. Then they are all like "Help! Police!".


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: terrytibbs on June 05, 2012, 02:58:54 PM
Everybody loves anarchy until I shoot them in the gut, leave them for dead and take their wife as a slave. Then they are all like "Help! Police!".
Because there are no law enforcement agencies in a stateless society!


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: Hawker on June 05, 2012, 03:22:32 PM
Everybody loves anarchy until I shoot them in the gut, leave them for dead and take their wife as a slave. Then they are all like "Help! Police!".
Because there are no law enforcement agencies in a stateless society!

Correct.  There is no law so no law enforcement.


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: terrytibbs on June 05, 2012, 03:24:43 PM
There is no law
This is where I stopped reading


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: Hawker on June 05, 2012, 03:32:13 PM
There is no law
This is where I stopped reading

Good.  You have now answered your own question about whether law enforcement officers are needed in an anarchy. 

Tomorrow we will get on to more advanced topics like what religion is the Pope and what is that bear doing in the woods.


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: EhVedadoOAnonimato on June 05, 2012, 03:37:32 PM
You can't - humans always gang up and appoint leaders.  There never had been nor will there every be a society without a publicly enforced government or violently enforced political authority.

If that is your reason not to support freedom, then I can only conclude you must support murder. After all, there never had been nor will there ever be a society without murders.


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: Hawker on June 05, 2012, 03:39:41 PM
You can't - humans always gang up and appoint leaders.  There never had been nor will there every be a society without a publicly enforced government or violently enforced political authority.

If that is your reason not to support freedom, then I can only conclude you must support murder. After all, there never had been nor will there ever be a society without murders.

I support freedom.  Anarchy is not freedom - its a prelude to slavery.


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: FirstAscent on June 05, 2012, 04:15:22 PM
You can't - humans always gang up and appoint leaders.  There never had been nor will there every be a society without a publicly enforced government or violently enforced political authority.

If that is your reason not to support freedom, then I can only conclude you must support murder. After all, there never had been nor will there ever be a society without murders.

I support freedom.  Anarchy is not freedom - its a prelude to slavery.

It's a prelude to slavery or organized government, possibly taking the route of slavery first. Either way, it either doesn't remain pleasant, or it becomes governed.


Title: Re: Where can I find an anarchy?
Post by: Kettenmonster on June 07, 2012, 11:35:28 AM
You wont find it in real live, as humans tend to fail. Fail to follow a great plan whilst they see a chance to gather some jewels on their own behalf.
On the other hand, how would you communicate or interact with other people in an anarchy? Communication without rules is pointless.

p.s.
Maybe we should tell Anomie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anomie) and Anarchy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy) apart.