Bitcoin Forum

To buy btc on circle.com you need to pay the bank fees. You can then use that btc to buy goods. The merchant wont pay fees but the consumer will. In a way, it's a longer route to the same price. So how can such systems make things cheaper for consumers?

I know that we are hoping for a time when btc will replace fiat, but for now that isn't happening. Customers need incentives and that incentive would be lower prices.

Merchants can lower prices since they don't have to pay credit card fees and are not exposed to chargeback fraud.

But those fees will be paid by customers when buying the btc with their cards. Same result - more effort.

Oh and the btc providers (e.g. circle) will have to deal with card fraud.

1) You are talking about the initial onramp fee of 1%. Once you have BTC you don't have this.

2) You can accept Bitcoin directly for goods and services and never need to go from Fiat to BTC as well.

3) It isn't an either, or decision as well. If you are a smart consumer you can use BTC's volatility to work for you:

       1) Buy BTC at 400 USD = 1% onramp fee = 404usd

        2) Later, If Price of BTC is more that 404 use BTC to purchase product, otherwise go to 3

         3) Later, If price of BTC is less than 404 use debit card, otherwise go to 2

          4) Using this method all products will be cheaper for consumers.

4) Merchants sometimes give discounts to consumers who pay in BTC because they don't pay merchant processing fees and can get BTC without paying the on ramp fee with bitpay.

Well, eventually it will be silly to buy BTC with a credit card.

Also, don't forget the cost of fraud and security. Home Depot and Target will suffer from the cost of their security lapses.

You are both missing the point. Before we get to that stage people need an incentive to obtain BTC.


Do you think the average joe will even do this????!!!


Again you missed the point!! This is about circle.com. Yes with bank transfers and exchanges its all cool but people don't want to do that. They would however use cards to pay for the coins. Bitpay doesn't given you that.


YES that fee isn't meaningless. It is still money that you pay.

We are just answering your question which which is one incentive amongst many.


I am an average joe and do it all the time... it comes second nature to us Bitcoin people, when the price is up spend BTC , when its down spend with fiat and buy BTC, it isn't complicated.

Were you disingenuous with your question and not want an answer?

Here is another way to instantly save money. Buy Giftcards (including amazon) with BTC and instantly save 3%
http://www.gyft.com/bitcoin/

This means that you can save 3% on basically every product available with Bitcoin.

Is that a good thing?

if your american no one on earth will tell you to go buy some euro's simply because your local store as started accepting euro's along side dollar.. and then to go spend your euro's.

no one on earth will demand the retailer to give discounts to try and tempt people to buy euros either!!

YOUR MISSING THE POINT OF BITCOIN

its not about going from fiat to bitcoin to then instantly spend.

please go research what bitcoins benefits really are

I know what you are referring to but I am not the average dude in the street who we are trying to get into bitcoin. They NEED INCENTIVES. No ideology is going to make them want to get into BTC. No scaremongering about inflation and debt will convince them. I think bitcoin is a great idea as a world currency but the average broke guy wants incentives. He wants discounts. Right now the ONLY incentive is international money transfer. That is all we have and that is for very few people.

Bottom line ----

Their are many reasons to invest and use Bitcoin. You asked a question about consumers saving money which is only one reason amongst many to use Bitcoin. Will most people start using bitcoin to save 3% or more on everything? Some thrifty people may, but most will not. Most people start using bitcoin for a combination of reasons.

What is also great about bitcoin is there are some things you can only buy Bitcoin with and here is one of them -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwRtll3jjU4

https://ghostgunner.net/

Selling like hotcakes and only BTC accepted. Another reason why people will buy and use Bitcoin: Porn, drugs, guns, gambling, money laundering, prostitutes.... you know the backbone of society just like how USD cash is great at as well, but now you can get those things from the safety of your home and with greater competition brings in better quality due to reputation being more important.

There is a very long list of incentives. What were you expecting us to say? Bitcoin will magically make everything 30% cheaper? Come on....

Perhaps, Bitcoin isn't intended for the rich white kid who could care less about saving 3%. Perhaps, it is a tool for other people to keep their savings. I just met a cattle farmer who owns a large ranch in Argentina. Guess how he is going to keep his profits from losing 30-50% in value this year due to inflation?

Bitcoin is still around 4 times higher than last years average. It has grown in value every year. The USD/Euro has lost 99.998% in value against Bitcoin.

If people saved even 1% of every bitcoin purchase then that is good enough incentive. But right now you lose money buying the btc with your card.


If it is legal then most people don't care if they use cards. You reckon the illegal stuff will be enough for btc??


No you are not. You are overestimating the average person.

Of course, lets discuss a worst case scenario. If no one used BTC for the white market, and every country made it illegal worldwide, and many competing cryptocurrencies caught up to BTC where BTC only had a fraction of the black market share , than BTC would still grow to being worth over 10k per coin because of the limited supply and the size of the blackmarket.



I just showed you how you can save 3% on every product imaginable with BTC so this means that 3 % savings - 1% fee for coinbase or circle = 2% savings on everything amazon sells or almost any gift card imaginable.

Actually circle charges a 3% fee! So by that account the consumer needs to save 4% at the merchants.

Bitpay and coinbase are not so easy to do.

again you are thinking of people buying bitcoin to instantly spend

YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT!!!

please go have a cup of coffee, sit back relax, watch some TV and open your mind to what bitcoin is truly about. stop thinking we need to advertise to average joe who wants instant spend.. that is like phase 3 mindset, we are still at phase 1

phase one: innovators (coders & investment & merchants)
phase two: early adopters (investment & merchants)
phase three: main adopters (average joe just wanting to turn their wages into food, clothing and toilet paper)
phase four: late adopters

we are still in phase 1, stop skipping to phase 3 simply because you want your friend down the road to buy in so that you can sell out at profit

My friend, I do know the fundamentals. All I see from you guys is rhetoric and no good answers. The fundamentals are good but we wont get there until there is greater adoption. We wont get that adoption until the average dude has incentives.

You got it backwards! What you describe as phases wont come. First we need the adoption then comes the lower volatility, reduction of fiat conversion etc ...

Without greater adoption we will never get the other benefits. All I see from you guys is defensiveness and fanboyism. You can't face the criticism because you hold too much BTC.

Circle doesn't charge fees to go from Fiat to BTC(yes, all exchanges have a spread just like all banks). Coinbase is 1%. Coinbase was easier to setup than paypal. I have setup over 10 coinbase accounts.

You are just being dishonest.

I just went to circle.com and tried it myself. They charge 3% fees. Go try it yourself. What they mean is that they dont add additional fees to what the card company does. TRY IT!

I am not from the USA so I cant comment on coinbase.

again your thinking of the bitcoin price by even mentioning volatility..

please clear your mind of the price completely. do not worry about the price tomorrow. the price next week or next month.. completely clear your mind of all that worry.

merchants do not actually care one bit about volatility.. as merchants if you did not realise when they type in $10 into a coinbase/bitpay API. are given a QR code, customers pay it and the merchant gets $10 in their bank account. to a merchant it does not matter if bitcoin is $1000 each or $300 each..
that is the mindset of phases 1-2.

the price my friend, is going to continue to rise and fall many times. so dont worry about volatility..

i professionally dont even look at the price. its meaningless, not due to the amount of coins i have still netting me a nice income at whatever price. but because the point of bitcoin is not about measuring bitcoin against FIAT. i personally measure bitcoin against how many loavesof bread i can buy without fiat converting.. last year 1btc got me roughly 50 loaves, now i can get atleast 200 loaves of bread.

but at this point in time we should be pushing for investment, and merchant adoption. basically increase the usability of it.

as you also keep harping on about discounts.. why mention discounts if customer cant even use bitcoin in the 7-11 in the first place.. we need to get places like walmart and 7-11 onboard first. (phase 2) before walmart/7-11 decides to offer discounts because payment processing is cheaper and they are getting free publicity from bitcoin.

the whole "user adoption" for everyday joe bloggs is not the point we are at. so be patient. have a cup of coffee and realise that bitcoin is not a fully grown up currency it is still a toddler, yes its volatile, having temper tantrums as toddlers do but its still crawling around and learning to walk. not yet ready to run.

your mindset is stuck on a very narrow vein of what bitcoins potential is, a vein pumping money around. bitcoin is far bigger, it has muscles it needs to flex and needs to show more movements of these muscles and not only the movements of money through its veins.

im not sure i can make it any clearer. but you seem to think that bitcoin is a 100metre sprint and you want to be the one running home back to your comfort zone.

bitcoin my friend is a triathlon.

Well you certainly did make a comment about coinbase before.... now you are admitting to making up facts?


WTF do your bank fees have to do with circle! You said that circle charges 3% , now are claiming that your bank is charging it. Newsflash.... there are many different banks with different fee structures!

Perhaps you are referring about the Interchange fee that is a minimum of 2% with Visa /Mastercard?

What does that have to do with circle? This is the reason why people want to use Bitcoin and stop using credit cards. Just because you don't always see the merchant processing fees they do effect you with at minimum raising prices on goods and services you buy.

If you ACH'd the payment that would probably eliminate the fee charged by a cc.... that is what people do with coinbase and yes, if you are in the US you can ACH to circle and the banks don't charge fees.

So perhaps you should say " Damn, I hate my bank, they are charging me fees for every fucking transaction, or they hide the fees they charge me by charging the business I deal with 3-5% which makes everything I buy more expensive."

Why are you fretting about 3% anyways? Bitcoin has grown in value far more than that over the years regardless. You are missing the point if you need to constantly jump in and out of Fiat.

When the bitcoin price I stable, goods and products are directly priced as bitcoin. The bitcoin can be treated as investment or trading currency of daily lives spending. It is still a long way to go.

correct, ACH/wire transfer funds to circle, its the best option.
the only people credit carding to circle are most probably the ones that wait a week for their bank statements and then cry "chargeback" to their providers. why else use a credit card.


and now to make  cafucafucafu happy.
i now declare we are in phase three.. tel all your friends we have skipped stage 2 completely and as from tomorrow these store will over 30% off
walmart
starbuck
mcdonalds
KFC
7-11
target
macy's
subway
burger king

..................
....................
.....................
oh crap sorry folks i know we spent alot of funds on advertising and talked all you average joes into buying bitcoin.. but now you have bitcoin im afraid to tell you that these merchants have not yet adopted bitcoin.... sorry our admin officer known as cafucafucafu will sort out all of your frustrations as it was his plan to skip stage 2. he will explain it all to you.

I believe that circle is actually only available to US users.

Circle does not charge these fees, it is your credit card company as a "purchase" on circle is actually a cash advance on circle in order to buy a cash like product (bitcoin).

If you were to use your bank account then you could avoid these fees.

stable?
that means measuring the bitcoin against FIAT..
ever watched the matrix
when bitcoin is ready and you open your mind you will realise... there is no fiat price.

part of the movement is to move to a Cost of Living index.. where for instance not one mention of a fiat price is shown upfront.

imagine bitcoin was measured at 1.5 weeks of cost of living.
knowing that no matter where you lived no matter what country you came from. right now bitcoin was worth 60 hours of minimum wage labour.

yes that means whether you live in california, alaska, belgium or the UK. everyones litestyle was on an equal footing.
take for instance, heres some valid statistics right now
Alaska    C.o.L per week $7.75 minimum wage x40hours=310
Arizona    C.o.L per week$7.90 minimum wage x40hours=316
Arkansas    C.o.L per week$6.25 minimum wage x40hours=250
California    C.o.L per week$9.00 minimum wage x40hours=360

right now someone in california only has to work 42 hours to buy a bitcoin
right now someone in arkansas only has to work 60 hours to buy a bitcoin

all because people are basing bitcoin on the price right now of $378

so scrap the price out of your mind, remove any notion of FIAT..

so lets say right now EVERYONE today has to work 60 hours to get 1btc (40 hour working week x 1.5)
and based on cost of living bread is 1% of C.o.L = 150 loaves of bread per btc ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD

so in the future you wont see
bitcoin: $XXXX

yo will see:
bitcoin 1.5xxx col

that way someone in the UK can work out that IF..IF they had fiat they could convert it to btc based on their minimum wage of £6.50x60
which is a better system than converting from dollar and then to pounds.

ill prove it.
basing bitcoins price on arkansas 60 hour col ($378)
converting $378 into pound the old fashioned way=£233.46 yes bitcoin due to the dollar price is 233.46 pounds (below uk minimum wage)
so if i in the UK working 60 hours and be paid at a dollar rate. i would be screwed.

but if everyone was paid in bitcoin at a c.o.l rate
UK £6.50x60 £390 today
yes id get £390 for my bitcoin. not £233.

so the dollar pricing is preventing innovation and preventing people wanting to be paid in bitcoins for a wage. as the conversion rates places like coinbase or bitpay use to give you pounds or euros (for international employee's) means we get screwed.

so forget the dollar price.. its meaningless. innovation will move away from pricing things in fiat from bitcoin and it will be a simple c.o.l which anyone in any country can convert from based on their own native col values.

Now most of the coins in the hands of the few, if this situation does not change, the popularity that the comprehensive popularization of bitcoin it is difficult to achieve.

bitcoins are changing hands EVERYDAY

Smart guy you missed the point again! Now assume ALL these merchants adopted btc and all the infrastructure was in place, again where is the incentive for the customer????? Customer don't give a dam if every shop takes btc if there is no incentive!

Why do you keep ignoring the many ways I save money with BTC as a consumer? I save on average of 3-10% with BTC all the time with the methods I discussed. Consumers are just unaware of this because people like you are spreading misinformation.

I hate to tell you, but your average consumer isn't going to go through hoops of buying things through Gyft and elsewhere just to purchase items. Most people like convenience and are willing to pay to extra 2-3% for it.

Also why would a merchant ever offer discounts of 10%+ using Bitcoin? They're losing 2-5% tops using Credit Cards, and contrary to public opinion in this forum, chargebacks only account for a tiny fraction of transactions merchants have annually, not enough to justify such a steep discount for using Bitcoin.

I'm all for Bitcoin discounts but lets be realistic about what a merchant could really offer in terms of savings.

2-5% discount  can be obtained directly with merchants or with Gyft.

More can be found within bitcoins volatility :



 And no I don't expect the average person to care much about a few % discount:

your never going to learn and you are continuously pushing for phase three. your obsessed with phase three. you are probably watering at the mouth of the potential profits you can make at phase three..

well i wont spoon feed you any more hints or tips. ill just leave you to cry and wait in the corner until your beloved phase three approaches. .. but it aint yet, so either think about phase 1 and 2 and be part of bitcoins growth, or go away live your life and come back at phase three.

lets say a laptop on dells website is $400 (expectant discount = total price $360)

easy enough
BTC-e price is 1btc=$375
laptop=0.96btc

so dell show a QR code for 0.96btc quoting that its valued at btc-e's exchange price.
customer is happy as btc-e is a valid exchange that many people sheep follow, so a customer see's it as a deal.
...
transaction is done,
...
dell then sell the 0.96btc not to btc-e, but to vircurex at their price of $420
dell receives $403

now wasn't that easy..and everyone is happy.

Yes, I forgot about using arbitrage to add additional savings... wow, so many ways to save with BTC with a little know how.

And how many companies will be able to make use of arbitrage before the gap is closed?

I am not a fud spreader or a troll - look at my other posts in other threads. I am just genuinely concerned about this. It would be nice to hear solutions from you guys but this is not helping. I hope this problem isn't a white elephant that kills bitcoin.

Is there any other member here who can tell me a decent reason why the average consumer will adopt bitcoin? Imagine if all the infrastructure is in place and all the merchants accept bitcoin - why then will the consumer adopt it if there is no incentive?

I recently purchased a VPN service using Bitcoin and they gave me a very nice discount that would have more than covered any costs associated with procuring the BTC.

Imagine if Amazon starts accepting Bitcoin and offers a mere 10% discount  :)

Well, Bitcoin needs to go mobile and it needs to dominate in mobile ASAP. Transactions under $100 should be instant (no confirmation needed) and we need more places to pay.

I highly doubt someone is going to attempt a double spend to buy dinner or a new pair of shoes at retail, and the easy way around this is to simply

1) Ask for ID when you pay like a CC

2) Just take a photo/video of the person

3) Wait for 1 confirmation (10mins)

But if Bitcoin doesnt dominate in mobile, it wont have a chance going forward as people use paper currency less and less.

Those discounts are promotions. They are for publicity and to get people to use bitcoin on the sites. They are not permanent discounts which come about from accepting bitcoin. The merchant will save about 3% from card fees but the customer will pay that to buy the btc.

I just want to see a solution for this problem. I know it wouldn't exist if we were all using bitcoin but to get there we need to remove volatility and to remove volatility we need to more adoption. Catch 22.

I am not saying that bitcoin wont have any value. It will be a store of value like gold is. It will be better to hold bitcoin over fiat for the future because of inflation.

International transfers, some black market stuff and a store of value seems to be where BTC will be in the future. It wont be very common unless there are real incentives. And right now no one has provided any. So BTC is Gold 2.0 and not a common currency.

It's a joke to think you depend on Bitcoin going up to justify the fee thing. People don't care to buy a currency paying an extra fee to buy the same things they can buy with FIAT without fee, this is the problem.

again bitcoins use is NOT meant to simply start with a fiat wage, convert to bitcoin to then instantly spend the same day for discounts.
bitcoin is NOT a loyalty store/card which you can top-up.

get passed the mindset of buy bitcoin in the morning to spend in the afternoon.

your logic and mindset is like saying why would americans buy euros simply because a 7-11 in america starts accepting euro's.

PLEASE learn what bitcoin is about, learn all the benefits. there are atleast 20 of them, there is reason a 7-11 store would discount a product simply because they accept euro.

once you get passed the mindset of that. and learn all the other possibilities of bitcoins you will see it.

it seems to me you just want to tempt others to buy coin from you under some pretense that you can con others with promises of discounts.. without truly explaining what bitcoin is and explain all the intricacies and benefits.

That my friend is not what bitcoin is about. please please please take some time and look at what other benefits bitcoin is, starting with why you are even on this forum. what benefits of bitcoin tempted you and made you think bitcoin was worth looking into, as i know it was not promises of discounts, as there are none,. and never should be. so look deep into yourself and come to the true desire of bitcoin, by remembering what brought you here in the first place.

then learn the other true benefits

a) Help people convince their employers to begin paying them in BTC, and ensure streamlined processes are in place to do so.

b) Show people where they can spend their BTC, and also help them convince merchants in their area (provide promo materials, etc.) to accept BTC.  Help them to convince their landlord to accept BTC, etc.

Once people are getting paid in BTC, and paying say 30%+ of their living expenses in BTC meaning no tax on that money, they will generally have a good 20%+ more money (depending on country), which is more than enough incentive for most people.

Leave the average dude on the street alone. What makes Bitcoin look like a scam to him is the fact that you want to shove it down his throat. If the average dude on the street doesn't want BTC, leave him be. It's not for everybody.

+1  your getting the idea
not to mention that the growth of bitcoin(populatrity and deflationary) means this weeks 150 loaf of bread wage means that when paid in bitcoin will get you more then 150 loaves of bread later, without the merchant discounting a dime, purely because bitcoin in itself is worth more.

even while people are crying that bitcoin is low now.. my 2013 bitcoin wage (yes i get paid in bitcoins) buys me atleast 3 times more stuff now than it would have last year thus discounting my purchases is not needed. and this years wage (doing the maths while i write this) is also not in bad shape either.

yes i am living off bitcoin and i am not worried about hunger or losing the roof off my head, and it has nothing to do with having enough bitcoins to compensate for volatility.

Merchants generally will need to pay ~3% to accept a credit card transaction, however this is not their only cost associated with accepting a credit card. Anytime that a merchant ships/delivers a product and later faces a chargeback claim, will have costs fighting the chargeback regardless if it is successful or not. If the transaction is actually chargedback then they will have provided a good/service and received nothing in return.

Also who is to say that a merchant wouldn't offer a similar discount to what it costs them in CC fees? Even a 3% discount would likely be sought after by consumers as few people are willing to pass up a deal when they otherwise would be purchasing something

Merchants don't offer discounts for cash payments, which is just as safe.  :)

The OP is on point... it's great that there are reasons for using btc... still the real issue is we're not reaching the mass with the message... or enough value to change their ways.
IMO the marketing side is seriously lacking... the average Joe believes it's a scam or see no reason to make the effort to buy in.
How many mainstream rags have any kind of ads... today we see more about the downside than positive reasons to endorse it... put yourself in the position of folks that are clueless about bitcoin... and I'm not talking about tech savvy individuals... there needs to be a joint effort by all members to invest in advertising ( invest in the future)... I'm thinking some type of incentive program where it's not all "pay to promote" but a program that will give back to the community on a random basis.. ie. drawings, lotto, reward for best idea etc... we don't all read forbes and bloomberg

Maybe invest it on something? Or loan it? Hmmmm....

It depends.

At APMEX, the cash price for a 1 oz gold eagle is $1,276.19, while the price using a credit card is $1,320.86 (3.5% more).

However,

the reason average joe is not adopting by their millions, is because bitcoin is still in innovation stage, thus not ready for mass adoption.

so advertising bitcoin as purely a "discount payment method" will make people view it as more of a scam than ever.

stop thinking of the 3month plan of quick spikes to make profit.
forget the price,
dont even worry about the price.
IGNORE THE PRICE!!!!
get the price out of your head,
pretend the price is an object.... now throw it away.
pretend the price is a liquid, now pour it down the drain.

now, i hope by the point you are reading this your mind is now open.
think about bitcoin from the infrastructure point. the physical, social and usability of bitcoin.

once you people see the benefits from the possible future bitcoin infrastructure, you will see what bitcoin is about and see what you should really be talking to the masses about.

now thats been said, realise we are still in the innovator stage and that the mass adoption WILL happen. but we shouldnt push people to run towards bitcoin until all the paths are lined up to ensure people dont get lost.

If what you are buying is on Amazon it's 33% cheaper.

Average Joe can stick with his fiat. We have what we need now, price does not matter. Quit worrying about average Joe.

When I ran my own business I gave a 5% discount for cash payments.

This is what we call a straw man argument. When did I ever say that BTC is supposed to be a like a store card? I know that BTC is supposed to replace fiat. But it will not happen if there are no incentives. You can't keep saying "let us get to phase 3 first" etc etc. Even in phase 3 you need incentives. You cant just hope and pray that phase 3 will have the right incentives appear from magic. We need to start thinking about how to make these incentives. I am not a troll, I am looking for solutions.  You never answer my questions directly.

Really!!?? You think most people will accept BTC as wages even with all the volatility and no incentives? First give them the incentives then they will start asking for BTC wages. Don't put the cart before the horse. The effect before the cause.

This is a nice answer. Finally someone answers with something sensible and not just empty rhetoric.

You have a good plan. Promote BTC so that it gets a good image and slowly get people to adopt it. The promotion would be the key here. We would have to state the benefits such as no inflation. In this way the users go into it thinking that it is for the future. This wont get many average guys to adopt it, but some of the more wealthy would. I.e. promote btc as an investment.

Why not?  It's what I do.  I haven't been paid in anything except BTC for about 2 years now.

Of course I don't enjoy the current price decrease, but nor am I worried about it, as historically the price has always increased long-term, and I have every reason to believe that will continue in the long-term.  I charge in USD, make more than I need each month to cover living expenses, and the rest stays in BTC.  When an invoice payment comes in, I pay as many bills in BTC as I can with it, transfer out what I need in fiat to cover living, and the rest sits there in savings.

I don't know, but works great.

Because not everyone is like you. They struggle with money and they are not so smart. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0RH0cYs4lw

Ummm, ok...  first...  that's from CNNN (notice the extra N).  It's an Australian Comedy Show called The Chasers.

Anyway, why not?  Get paid in BTC, pay 30% of your bills off right away, and pull the rest out in fiat.  That means 30% of your income is now essentially tax free.  You can't tell me your average person can't handle that.

im 100% bitcoin income too.

cafucafucafu the loyalty card reference i mentions was a least waffly explanation of your obsession with discounts for spending in retail (essentially what a loyalty card does)

the 401k analogy is of buybitcoinscanada, is a incentive thats already built into bitcoin (scarcity/deflationary)
please take this the right way(politely), dont think about retail discounts, its not a good incentive, its not a long term incentive, its not a helpful incentive.

bitcoin has benefits of stabilizing humanity by measuring bitcoin directy to human labour. EG no matter where you live if bitcoin was measured against x hours of minimum wage labour. every country would easily trad bitcoins. because 60 hours of sweat in africa was worth 60 hours of sweat in california. thus equalling the worlds indifference's.

when dollar crashes and a loaf of bread spikes to $1000 a loaf. bitcoin will be the safe bet that people can still afford a loaf of bread for 1% of their weeks labour.

then theirs the stuff how chase banks got hacked, banks are doing "heir(hair) cuts"
no daily limits or cross border limits.
and 50 other "incentives"

so what tempted you to start thinking/accepting/hoarding/mining bitcoin. what "incentives" got you excited? think more about those incentives and not discounts