How can the consumer save money?

[lihuajkl]

When the bitcoin price I stable, goods and products are directly priced as bitcoin. The bitcoin can be treated as investment or trading currency of daily lives spending. It is still a long way to go.

[1714855372]

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[1714855372]

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[franky1]

If you ACH'd the payment that would probably eliminate the fee charged by a cc.... that is what people do with coinbase.

correct, ACH/wire transfer funds to circle, its the best option.
the only people credit carding to circle are most probably the ones that wait a week for their bank statements and then cry "chargeback" to their providers. why else use a credit card.


and now to make  cafucafucafu happy.
i now declare we are in phase three.. tel all your friends we have skipped stage 2 completely and as from tomorrow these store will over 30% off
walmart
starbuck
mcdonalds
KFC
7-11
target
macy's
subway
burger king

..................
....................
.....................
oh crap sorry folks i know we spent alot of funds on advertising and talked all you average joes into buying bitcoin.. but now you have bitcoin im afraid to tell you that these merchants have not yet adopted bitcoin.... sorry our admin officer known as cafucafucafu will sort out all of your frustrations as it was his plan to skip stage 2. he will explain it all to you.

[blumangroup]

Actually circle charges a 3% fee! So by that account the consumer needs to save 4% at the merchants.

Bitpay and coinbase are not so easy to do.

FREE

You shouldn't have to pay fees to use your own money. We don't charge fees when you convert funds to or from bitcoin with a linked bank account, when you store your bitcoin, or for bitcoin transactions.

Circle doesn't charge fees to go from Fiat to BTC. Coinbase is 1%. Coinbase was easier to setup than paypal. I have setup over 10 coinbase accounts.

You are just being dishonest.

I just went to circle.com and tried it myself. They charge 3% fees. Go try it yourself. What they mean is that they dont add additional fees to what the card company does. TRY IT!

I am not from the USA so I cant comment on coinbase.

I believe that circle is actually only available to US users.

Circle does not charge these fees, it is your credit card company as a "purchase" on circle is actually a cash advance on circle in order to buy a cash like product (bitcoin).

If you were to use your bank account then you could avoid these fees.

[franky1]

When the bitcoin price I stable, goods and products are directly priced as bitcoin. The bitcoin can be treated as investment or trading currency of daily lives spending. It is still a long way to go.

stable?
that means measuring the bitcoin against FIAT..
ever watched the matrix
when bitcoin is ready and you open your mind you will realise... there is no fiat price.

part of the movement is to move to a Cost of Living index.. where for instance not one mention of a fiat price is shown upfront.

imagine bitcoin was measured at 1.5 weeks of cost of living.
knowing that no matter where you lived no matter what country you came from. right now bitcoin was worth 60 hours of minimum wage labour.

yes that means whether you live in california, alaska, belgium or the UK. everyones litestyle was on an equal footing.
take for instance, heres some valid statistics right now
Alaska    C.o.L per week $7.75 minimum wage x40hours=310
Arizona    C.o.L per week$7.90 minimum wage x40hours=316
Arkansas    C.o.L per week$6.25 minimum wage x40hours=250
California    C.o.L per week$9.00 minimum wage x40hours=360

right now someone in california only has to work 42 hours to buy a bitcoin
right now someone in arkansas only has to work 60 hours to buy a bitcoin

all because people are basing bitcoin on the price right now of $378

so scrap the price out of your mind, remove any notion of FIAT..

so lets say right now EVERYONE today has to work 60 hours to get 1btc (40 hour working week x 1.5)
and based on cost of living bread is 1% of C.o.L = 150 loaves of bread per btc ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD

so in the future you wont see
bitcoin: $XXXX

yo will see:
bitcoin 1.5xxx col

that way someone in the UK can work out that IF..IF they had fiat they could convert it to btc based on their minimum wage of £6.50x60
which is a better system than converting from dollar and then to pounds.

ill prove it.
basing bitcoins price on arkansas 60 hour col ($378)
converting $378 into pound the old fashioned way=£233.46 yes bitcoin due to the dollar price is 233.46 pounds (below uk minimum wage)
so if i in the UK working 60 hours and be paid at a dollar rate. i would be screwed.

but if everyone was paid in bitcoin at a c.o.l rate
UK £6.50x60 £390 today
yes id get £390 for my bitcoin. not £233.

so the dollar pricing is preventing innovation and preventing people wanting to be paid in bitcoins for a wage. as the conversion rates places like coinbase or bitpay use to give you pounds or euros (for international employee's) means we get screwed.

so forget the dollar price.. its meaningless. innovation will move away from pricing things in fiat from bitcoin and it will be a simple c.o.l which anyone in any country can convert from based on their own native col values.

[liu405]

Now most of the coins in the hands of the few, if this situation does not change, the popularity that the comprehensive popularization of bitcoin it is difficult to achieve.

[franky1]

Now most of the coins in the hands of the few, if this situation does not change, the popularity that the comprehensive popularization of bitcoin it is difficult to achieve.

bitcoins are changing hands EVERYDAY

[cafucafucafu]

If you ACH'd the payment that would probably eliminate the fee charged by a cc.... that is what people do with coinbase.

correct, ACH/wire transfer funds to circle, its the best option.
the only people credit carding to circle are most probably the ones that wait a week for their bank statements and then cry "chargeback" to their providers. why else use a credit card.


and now to make  cafucafucafu happy.
i now declare we are in phase three.. tel all your friends we have skipped stage 2 completely and as from tomorrow these store will over 30% off
walmart
starbuck
mcdonalds
KFC
7-11
target
macy's
subway
burger king

..................
....................
.....................
oh crap sorry folks i know we spent alot of funds on advertising and talked all you average joes into buying bitcoin.. but now you have bitcoin im afraid to tell you that these merchants have not yet adopted bitcoin.... sorry our admin officer known as cafucafucafu will sort out all of your frustrations as it was his plan to skip stage 2. he will explain it all to you.

Smart guy you missed the point again! Now assume ALL these merchants adopted btc and all the infrastructure was in place, again where is the incentive for the customer?? Customer don't give a dam if every shop takes btc if there is no incentive!

[inBitweTrust]

Smart guy you missed the point again! Now assume ALL these merchants adopted btc and all the infrastructure was in place, again where is the incentive for the customer?? Customer don't give a dam if every shop takes btc if there is no incentive!

Why do you keep ignoring the many ways I save money with BTC as a consumer? I save on average of 3-10% with BTC all the time with the methods I discussed. Consumers are just unaware of this because people like you are spreading misinformation.

[redhawk979]

Smart guy you missed the point again! Now assume ALL these merchants adopted btc and all the infrastructure was in place, again where is the incentive for the customer?? Customer don't give a dam if every shop takes btc if there is no incentive!

Why do you keep ignoring the many ways I save money with BTC as a consumer? I save on average of 3-10% with BTC all the time with the methods I discussed. Consumers are just unaware of this because people like you are spreading misinformation.

I hate to tell you, but your average consumer isn't going to go through hoops of buying things through Gyft and elsewhere just to purchase items. Most people like convenience and are willing to pay to extra 2-3% for it.

Also why would a merchant ever offer discounts of 10%+ using Bitcoin? They're losing 2-5% tops using Credit Cards, and contrary to public opinion in this forum, chargebacks only account for a tiny fraction of transactions merchants have annually, not enough to justify such a steep discount for using Bitcoin.

I'm all for Bitcoin discounts but lets be realistic about what a merchant could really offer in terms of savings.

[inBitweTrust]

I hate to tell you, but your average consumer isn't going to go through hoops of buying things through Gyft and elsewhere just to purchase items. Most people like convenience and are willing to pay to extra 2-3% for it.

Also why would a merchant ever offer discounts of 10%+ using Bitcoin? They're losing 2-5% tops using Credit Cards, and contrary to public opinion in this forum, chargebacks only account for a tiny fraction of transactions merchants have annually, not enough to justify such a steep discount for using Bitcoin.

I'm all for Bitcoin discounts but lets be realistic about what a merchant could really offer in terms of savings.

2-5% discount  can be obtained directly with merchants or with Gyft.

More can be found within bitcoins volatility :

3) It isn't an either, or decision as well. If you are a smart consumer you can use BTC's volatility to work for you:

       1) Buy BTC at 400 USD = 1% onramp fee = 404usd

        2) Later, If Price of BTC is more that 404 use BTC to purchase product, otherwise go to 3

         3) Later, If price of BTC is less than 404 use debit card, otherwise go to 2

          4) Using this method all products will be cheaper for consumers.

 And no I don't expect the average person to care much about a few % discount:

There are many reasons to invest and use Bitcoin. You asked a question about consumers saving money which is only one reason amongst many to use Bitcoin. Will most people start using bitcoin to save 3% or more on everything? Some thrifty people may, but most will not. Most people start using bitcoin for a combination of reasons.

[franky1]

Smart guy you missed the point again! Now assume ALL these merchants adopted btc and all the infrastructure was in place, again where is the incentive for the customer?? Customer don't give a dam if every shop takes btc if there is no incentive!

your never going to learn and you are continuously pushing for phase three. your obsessed with phase three. you are probably watering at the mouth of the potential profits you can make at phase three..

well i wont spoon feed you any more hints or tips. ill just leave you to cry and wait in the corner until your beloved phase three approaches. .. but it aint yet, so either think about phase 1 and 2 and be part of bitcoins growth, or go away live your life and come back at phase three.

[franky1]

Also why would a merchant ever offer discounts of 10%+ using Bitcoin? They're losing 2-5% tops using Credit Cards, and contrary to public opinion in this forum, chargebacks only account for a tiny fraction of transactions merchants have annually, not enough to justify such a steep discount for using Bitcoin.

I'm all for Bitcoin discounts but lets be realistic about what a merchant could really offer in terms of savings.

lets say a laptop on dells website is $400 (expectant discount = total price $360)

easy enough
BTC-e price is 1btc=$375
laptop=0.96btc

so dell show a QR code for 0.96btc quoting that its valued at btc-e's exchange price.
customer is happy as btc-e is a valid exchange that many people sheep follow, so a customer see's it as a deal.
...
transaction is done,
...
dell then sell the 0.96btc not to btc-e, but to vircurex at their price of $420
dell receives $403

now wasn't that easy..and everyone is happy.

[inBitweTrust]

now wasn't that easy..and everyone is happy.

Yes, I forgot about using arbitrage to add additional savings... wow, so many ways to save with BTC with a little know how.

[cafucafucafu]

Also why would a merchant ever offer discounts of 10%+ using Bitcoin? They're losing 2-5% tops using Credit Cards, and contrary to public opinion in this forum, chargebacks only account for a tiny fraction of transactions merchants have annually, not enough to justify such a steep discount for using Bitcoin.

I'm all for Bitcoin discounts but lets be realistic about what a merchant could really offer in terms of savings.

lets say a laptop on dells website is $400 (expectant discount = total price $360)

easy enough
BTC-e price is 1btc=$375
laptop=0.96btc

so dell show a QR code for 0.96btc quoting that its valued at btc-e's exchange price.
customer is happy as btc-e is a valid exchange that many people sheep follow, so a customer see's it as a deal.
...
transaction is done,
...
dell then sell the 0.96btc not to btc-e, but to vircurex at their price of $420
dell receives $403

now wasn't that easy..and everyone is happy.

And how many companies will be able to make use of arbitrage before the gap is closed?

I am not a fud spreader or a troll - look at my other posts in other threads. I am just genuinely concerned about this. It would be nice to hear solutions from you guys but this is not helping. I hope this problem isn't a white elephant that kills bitcoin.

Is there any other member here who can tell me a decent reason why the average consumer will adopt bitcoin? Imagine if all the infrastructure is in place and all the merchants accept bitcoin - why then will the consumer adopt it if there is no incentive?

[bababooey]

I recently purchased a VPN service using Bitcoin and they gave me a very nice discount that would have more than covered any costs associated with procuring the BTC.

Imagine if Amazon starts accepting Bitcoin and offers a mere 10% discount 

[cdog]

Well, Bitcoin needs to go mobile and it needs to dominate in mobile ASAP. Transactions under $100 should be instant (no confirmation needed) and we need more places to pay.

I highly doubt someone is going to attempt a double spend to buy dinner or a new pair of shoes at retail, and the easy way around this is to simply

1) Ask for ID when you pay like a CC

2) Just take a photo/video of the person

3) Wait for 1 confirmation (10mins)

But if Bitcoin doesnt dominate in mobile, it wont have a chance going forward as people use paper currency less and less.

[cafucafucafu]

I recently purchased a VPN service using Bitcoin and they gave me a very nice discount that would have more than covered any costs associated with procuring the BTC.

Imagine if Amazon starts accepting Bitcoin and offers a mere 10% discount 

Those discounts are promotions. They are for publicity and to get people to use bitcoin on the sites. They are not permanent discounts which come about from accepting bitcoin. The merchant will save about 3% from card fees but the customer will pay that to buy the btc.

I just want to see a solution for this problem. I know it wouldn't exist if we were all using bitcoin but to get there we need to remove volatility and to remove volatility we need to more adoption. Catch 22.

I am not saying that bitcoin wont have any value. It will be a store of value like gold is. It will be better to hold bitcoin over fiat for the future because of inflation.

International transfers, some black market stuff and a store of value seems to be where BTC will be in the future. It wont be very common unless there are real incentives. And right now no one has provided any. So BTC is Gold 2.0 and not a common currency.

[ivanovasmd]

But those fees will be paid by customers when buying the btc with their cards. Same result - more effort.

Oh and the btc providers (e.g. circle) will have to deal with card fraud.

1) You are talking about the initial onramp fee of 1%. Once you have BTC you don't have this.

2) You can accept Bitcoin directly for goods and services and never need to go from Fiat to BTC as well.

3) It isn't an either, or decision as well. If you are a smart consumer you can use BTC's volatility to work for you:

       1) Buy BTC at 400 USD = 1% onramp fee = 404usd

        2) Later, If Price of BTC is more that 404 use BTC to purchase product, otherwise go to 3

         3) Later, If price of BTC is less than 404 use debit card, otherwise go to 2

          4) Using this method all products will be cheaper for consumers.

4) Merchants sometimes give discounts to consumers who pay in BTC because they don't pay merchant processing fees and can get BTC without paying the on ramp fee with bitpay.

It's a joke to think you depend on Bitcoin going up to justify the fee thing. People don't care to buy a currency paying an extra fee to buy the same things they can buy with FIAT without fee, this is the problem.

[franky1]

Is there any other member here who can tell me a decent reason why the average consumer will adopt bitcoin? Imagine if all the infrastructure is in place and all the merchants accept bitcoin - why then will the consumer adopt it if there is no incentive?

again bitcoins use is NOT meant to simply start with a fiat wage, convert to bitcoin to then instantly spend the same day for discounts.
bitcoin is NOT a loyalty store/card which you can top-up.

get passed the mindset of buy bitcoin in the morning to spend in the afternoon.

your logic and mindset is like saying why would americans buy euros simply because a 7-11 in america starts accepting euro's.

PLEASE learn what bitcoin is about, learn all the benefits. there are atleast 20 of them, there is reason a 7-11 store would discount a product simply because they accept euro.

once you get passed the mindset of that. and learn all the other possibilities of bitcoins you will see it.

it seems to me you just want to tempt others to buy coin from you under some pretense that you can con others with promises of discounts.. without truly explaining what bitcoin is and explain all the intricacies and benefits.

That my friend is not what bitcoin is about. please please please take some time and look at what other benefits bitcoin is, starting with why you are even on this forum. what benefits of bitcoin tempted you and made you think bitcoin was worth looking into, as i know it was not promises of discounts, as there are none,. and never should be. so look deep into yourself and come to the true desire of bitcoin, by remembering what brought you here in the first place.

then learn the other true benefits

[Skywolf]

a) Help people convince their employers to begin paying them in BTC, and ensure streamlined processes are in place to do so.

b) Show people where they can spend their BTC, and also help them convince merchants in their area (provide promo materials, etc.) to accept BTC.  Help them to convince their landlord to accept BTC, etc.

Once people are getting paid in BTC, and paying say 30%+ of their living expenses in BTC meaning no tax on that money, they will generally have a good 20%+ more money (depending on country), which is more than enough incentive for most people.