Bitcoin Forum

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What doesn't make sense about what you say is that the valuation would be determined by Bitstamp. I would think that the valuation is determined by wherever the largest volume of trades is occurring. If that's happening OTC, fine, then OTC is setting the price. Why would large volume bitcoin traders care what some "small time" exchange has to say on the matter?

he's right. it's stupid but correct. i've seen this in action.

Well I don't think its stupid, it also means the reference price is from where it is the hardest (or most expensive) to be manipulated, so fair.

But I'm wondering if you have any data regarding the OTC market volume?

all OTC prices should be based on one of the blended indices out there.  not Stamp.  they're clearly into bullshit.

anyone who does not recognize the fact that bitcoin prices now are manipulated to be way below production cost and not take the opportunity now to hoard up, they're missing out big time. My only problem is that my fiat don't come in fast enough to convert to bitcoins  :(

yep, they are on sale. 

Most services needing a price (like if you were running an ATM) either use the price of the exchange they will be executing an instantaneous trade on, or they will use a exchange rate weighted by volume across many exchanges and averaging a recent period, perhaps even using a forumula anticipating the trend to stay ahead of the average.

http://we.lovebitco.in/img/cal.php

This is technically true, however the OTC market does influence the bitstamp market as well. If someone buys bitcoin on the OTC market form someone that would have otherwise sold on bitstamp then there would be a little bit less selling pressure on bitstamp.

It is also not possible to effectively control the price on an exchange

it is, put up a 30,000 btc wall where you want your price to stop.

There's sites like: https://bitcoinaverage.com/#USD

If you "a lot of big trading" and don't know about those, well, I don't know what to say.

That there are arbitrage bots and that the market has shallow volume in general is a given. You make no new points here really.

You said people are looking at bitstamp only, so right now that deal would be at 300. If an OTC trader looks at bitcoinaverage the trade would be at 306.

My point exactly. Nothing new here since MtGox started to get competitors.

He's right.

For some stupid reason, it is my impression that Stampfuck is more trusted and keyed off of than other exchanges, especially by coinbase. Maybe because it's non Chinese, backed by Pantera, who knows.

I was alseep when the wall got eaten.  What happened?

Yes,  If i had for example 30.000 coins and I wanted to buy another 30.000 ( 10%-20% below current price level) , i would deposit 20.000 btc to bitstamp and manipulate the market causing a panic selling  (other exchanges will follow bitstamp)
I would sell 20.000 btc at 350 (everybody could see my selling order in the order book, sell pressure) while the panic sellers would push the price lower and lower with me for example to $300 ,  at this point i would buy 30.000 on OTC at $300 (they follow the exchange rate) , nobody will see my huge buying order (no buy pressure, exchange rate wont move), and after it i would buy back my 20.000 btc at lower prices on the exchanges

i can repeat it until the market found its bottom  (from 680- 280 ?  or lower)

i know i am a noob and perhaps this theory is bullshit,   but some early adopters are noob too and perhaps one of them will try it

well it got eaten down to around 15,000 by many (participated) when there was a nice single 11,000+ buy and then the lines started jumping around :)

 :D you must be new

Well, Stamp is the go-to exchange, and it is also used by Coinbase and other services as a source and a reference value, thus it dictates the price, almost like Mt.Gox back in the days, although they only were the go-to exchange, because they were first.

Well that's exactly how I figured it would play out. Well done everybody. A true group collective take down.  Let the little guys clear the way for a whale to come in and finish it off. I hope we can all learn from this and harden our trading skills.

This has to change. Stampfuck is not to be trusted. 

Really? I keep on seeing some people complaining about Bitstamp, but fail to see how they really are evil. I get that BTC-e is shady as hell, but Bitstamp seems rather safe and legit. Do you have any serious proof or indicators suggesting otherwise?

The recent bitstamp $300 wall proved that you can't really control global BTC price as OP suggests.


Here's a brief rundown...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=812616.msg9102870#msg9102870

All exchanges "want to go up", but until bitstamp does not move they cant go upper than $6-12 , so who is your daddy?
(yeah i know one reason is arbitrage and there is some other )

This. I have traded over at localbitcoins from time to time and this is so true, many buyers and sellers peg the prices on stamp. When I first started trading there, I got laughed at when I tried to negotiate the price with what gox had LOL.

You are wrong! You can't control the market but you can influence it. A market is about buyers and sellers so if you put up a massive wall then that price will stick until the wall is broken through.

Yes this will have an effect regarding other exchanges but then it opens the door to Arbritage.

Last night a 30,000 wall at around 3.00 am. The price stopped for about 4 hours and then bounced 50 points when it fell.

How, exactly did that deal control the market?

Bingo.

Sometimes that's enough though.

Actually on localbitcoins the price was not following bitstamp lately, because the sudden price drop attracted huge amount of buyers, and sellers are all running out of coins, and it takes time for funds to reach exchanges who have cheap coins. Some local dealer's price has been raised by as much as 20% by the time I'm writing this, and they are still the cheapest one on the local market

It's only arbitrage that links exchange prices. By the time you notice a price disparity across an exchange arbitrage bots will be on the case buying cheap and selling dear relieving the pressure until they can't cover fees.

In this case the "daddies" were the big bank arbitragers.

The wall builder made a nice "donation" to them and lost control of ~15k bitcoin in the process.

There's no mysterious voodoo control exerted by such behaviour other than establishing strong support at $300 thus increasing the chance that you will never be able to buy your coins back at the price you let them go for.

any exchange u control price u control all.