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[Devin Chow]

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[chriswilmer]

What doesn't make sense about what you say is that the valuation would be determined by Bitstamp. I would think that the valuation is determined by wherever the largest volume of trades is occurring. If that's happening OTC, fine, then OTC is setting the price. Why would large volume bitcoin traders care what some "small time" exchange has to say on the matter?

[cypherdoc]

What doesn't make sense about what you say is that the valuation would be determined by Bitstamp. I would think that the valuation is determined by wherever the largest volume of trades is occurring. If that's happening OTC, fine, then OTC is setting the price. Why would large volume bitcoin traders care what some "small time" exchange has to say on the matter?

he's right. it's stupid but correct. i've seen this in action.

[Malte]

Well I don't think its stupid, it also means the reference price is from where it is the hardest (or most expensive) to be manipulated, so fair.

But I'm wondering if you have any data regarding the OTC market volume?

[cypherdoc]

all OTC prices should be based on one of the blended indices out there.  not Stamp.  they're clearly into bullshit.

[nuff]

anyone who does not recognize the fact that bitcoin prices now are manipulated to be way below production cost and not take the opportunity now to hoard up, they're missing out big time. My only problem is that my fiat don't come in fast enough to convert to bitcoins  

[cypherdoc]

anyone who does not recognize the fact that bitcoin prices now are manipulated to be way below production cost and not take the opportunity now to hoard up, they're missing out big time. My only problem is that my fiat don't come in fast enough to convert to bitcoins  

yep, they are on sale. 

[deepceleron]

Most services needing a price (like if you were running an ATM) either use the price of the exchange they will be executing an instantaneous trade on, or they will use a exchange rate weighted by volume across many exchanges and averaging a recent period, perhaps even using a forumula anticipating the trend to stay ahead of the average.

[santaClause]

What doesn't make sense about what you say is that the valuation would be determined by Bitstamp. I would think that the valuation is determined by wherever the largest volume of trades is occurring. If that's happening OTC, fine, then OTC is setting the price. Why would large volume bitcoin traders care what some "small time" exchange has to say on the matter?

Because it's the most well known. Simple.

There is no central "authority" on price for the OTC market. Those trading over-the-counter look to exchanges in determining market value.

Bitstamp is the most recognized.

This is technically true, however the OTC market does influence the bitstamp market as well. If someone buys bitcoin on the OTC market form someone that would have otherwise sold on bitstamp then there would be a little bit less selling pressure on bitstamp.

It is also not possible to effectively control the price on an exchange

[piramida]

It is also not possible to effectively control the price on an exchange

it is, put up a 30,000 btc wall where you want your price to stop.

[Newar]

There's sites like: https://bitcoinaverage.com/#USD

If you "a lot of big trading" and don't know about those, well, I don't know what to say.

[Newar]

That there are arbitrage bots and that the market has shallow volume in general is a given. You make no new points here really.

You said people are looking at bitstamp only, so right now that deal would be at 300. If an OTC trader looks at bitcoinaverage the trade would be at 306.

[Newar]

My point exactly. Nothing new here since MtGox started to get competitors.

[cypherdoc]

He's right.

For some stupid reason, it is my impression that Stampfuck is more trusted and keyed off of than other exchanges, especially by coinbase. Maybe because it's non Chinese, backed by Pantera, who knows.

I was alseep when the wall got eaten.  What happened?

[sbrzol]

The majority of coins are sold OTC. Anybody who does a lot of big trading knows this.

But how are coins valued? You guessed it, most of the time using the price on BITSTAMP.

What does this mean? If you are able to control the price on Bitstamp, you control how much Bitcoin is sold for elsewhere.

Let's say you want to buy a block of coins from an exchanger, OTC. If you are able to manipulate the price on Bitstamp with a sell/buy wall, you directly affect the price you pay from the exchanger.

Bitstamp's volume is tiny in comparison to the OTC market. Their only real function is determining a VALUATION of Bitcoin as a whole. The market depth/volume on Bitstamp is a joke in comparison to how much is traded OTC daily.

Control Bitstamp's price, you more or less control the market price everywhere.

Make sense?

Yes,  If i had for example 30.000 coins and I wanted to buy another 30.000 ( 10%-20% below current price level) , i would deposit 20.000 btc to bitstamp and manipulate the market causing a panic selling  (other exchanges will follow bitstamp)
I would sell 20.000 btc at 350 (everybody could see my selling order in the order book, sell pressure) while the panic sellers would push the price lower and lower with me for example to $300 ,  at this point i would buy 30.000 on OTC at $300 (they follow the exchange rate) , nobody will see my huge buying order (no buy pressure, exchange rate wont move), and after it i would buy back my 20.000 btc at lower prices on the exchanges

i can repeat it until the market found its bottom  (from 680- 280 ?  or lower)

i know i am a noob and perhaps this theory is bullshit,   but some early adopters are noob too and perhaps one of them will try it

[piramida]

He's right.

For some stupid reason, it is my impression that Stampfuck is more trusted and keyed off of than other exchanges, especially by coinbase. Maybe because it's non Chinese, backed by Pantera, who knows.

I was alseep when the wall got eaten.  What happened?

well it got eaten down to around 15,000 by many (participated) when there was a nice single 11,000+ buy and then the lines started jumping around

[maker88]

It is also not possible to effectively control the price on an exchange

  you must be new

[FUR11]

Well, Stamp is the go-to exchange, and it is also used by Coinbase and other services as a source and a reference value, thus it dictates the price, almost like Mt.Gox back in the days, although they only were the go-to exchange, because they were first.

[cypherdoc]

He's right.

For some stupid reason, it is my impression that Stampfuck is more trusted and keyed off of than other exchanges, especially by coinbase. Maybe because it's non Chinese, backed by Pantera, who knows.

I was alseep when the wall got eaten.  What happened?

well it got eaten down to around 15,000 by many (participated) when there was a nice single 11,000+ buy and then the lines started jumping around

Well that's exactly how I figured it would play out. Well done everybody. A true group collective take down.  Let the little guys clear the way for a whale to come in and finish it off. I hope we can all learn from this and harden our trading skills.

[cypherdoc]

Well, Stamp is the go-to exchange, and it is also used by Coinbase and other services as a source and a reference value, thus it dictates the price, almost like Mt.Gox back in the days, although they only were the go-to exchange, because they were first.

This has to change. Stampfuck is not to be trusted.