Bitcoin Forum

I see that people are interested in the "bits" unit; however, given that few applications and services actually use it, how many people are actually using "bits" as their default unit now?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=592691.480

I'm interested in helping others use this unit as well, so if you know of any services that use "bits", please mention them here. "µBTC" is kind of unfriendly, as your common person just has no idea what that is.

Bitcoin Core (QT) wallet (Desktop):
Technically this uses "bits", but names them "micro bits". To change to use "bits", go to the client's Preferences section, click the "Display" tab at the top, and select "Unit to show amounts in" to µBTC.

Bread Wallet (iOS):
This wallet *only* uses bits. http://breadwallet.com

Bitcoin Wallet (Android):
Also uses bits -- but calls it the unfriendly term "µBTC".
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.schildbach.wallet&hl=en

MyCelium HD Wallet for Android

You can select BTC, mBTC, uBTC and bits

Why is there no no option?


No.

I challenge you to ask 10 "common people" what a "bit" is.

I also claim that while "µBTC" is somewhat unfriendly, if it is useful it will be softened in a natural way.  People will write "uBTC" often because there is no "µ" on most keyboards.  People may drop pronunciations such as "microbitcoin" or "u-bee-tee-cee" in favour of abbreviations such as "mic" or "ubit".  Someone may invent a currency symbol, probably a "µ" with a bar through it, like ₥ (read: mill) which already exists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mill_%28currency%29) and means a thousandth of a currency unit.  If the unit becomes really popular prices might be typed as "240 u" or "1500 u" where the "u" is pronounced "yew" or "mics".

If "kilograms" is often abbreviated to "kilos", "millilitres" to "mills", and "gigabytes" to "gigs", then why must we plan what people are going to do about "microbitcoins"?  Can't we simply let the decentralised system which is natural language do its job?

So no.  While I can order a takeaway for 34 mills, paying a transaction fee of 200 mics, I have no need or want to adopt extra terms such as "bits".

Agreed.

I use the term microbitcoins (or occasionally shortened to microbits) and write it as µBTC.

I've encountered people that have shortened "bitcoins" to "bits" when talking about whole bitcoins, so it would be confusing to use the word "bits" in place of "microbitcoins" when talking about a millionth of a bitcoin.

Since I've encountered MANY people that have shortened the word "microbitcoins" to "microbits" when talking about a millionth of a bitcoin, it just adds additional confusion to use the word "bits".

I use Bits; it's easy, fast and simpel.

I think it should not be used. Its a µBTC.

Any complaints about breadwallet?

Bits are stupid.

I used to be against the usage of bits, because it already is a measuring unit of information, like everyone is pointing out, but it is a catchy name and isn't that far off - Bitcoin has the term 'bit' in its name, already!

Since “Bitcoin” is the name of the currency, calling a SUBdivision “bit” is confusing as hell. “Bit” should be the abbreviation of “Bitcoin” itself, and terms such as “millibit” and “microbit” as the subdivisions.

Now, it is not necessary at present

it is necessaryi in  the future .

Why not keep calling the base-unit a 'Bitcoin' or simply a 'coin' - that way the smaller denomination could be called a bit. It is a catchy name, after all!

Because you're giving the same name to two different things, and Bitcoin's name won't change since it's already established.

Most computer/internet users have idea what mili and micro means. At least I hope  :)

Also, it's an SI standard, so it would be easier to clarify.

Most that ever went to school does. At least i hope so.

i like it. 1mio bits = 1 btc

actually bits is little confusing, i think satoshi, µBTC, mbtc still fine and clearly.

i personally prefer to just say 100 sats than 1 bit. it can be confusing

I've already asked 20 "common people" what a bit is, what a microbit is, etc. These people were *also* told what these units were. The one that made sense? "Bit" ... they remembered it, and they didn't even remember "microbit" despite the fact that they were basically told it was a "bit". So now.. I challenge YOU to go ask 10 "common people" what a "bit" is, and vice-verse :)

Ah yes, and I just finished reading through these :)


This does make sense.


Agreed. A "coin" would be ambiguous to the core Bitcoin developer (but there are relatively few of those).

If Bitcoin ever needs more significant digits to express it's value (as in 16 digits of 0.0000 0000 0000 0000 rather than 8 digits of 0.0000 0000), the terms "milli bit", "micro bit", and "nano bit" can apply? :) It's still messy. Someone also mentioned Bread Wallet and I've got to say, Bread Wallet is what made me really see the usefulness of using "bits" in a real-world setting, as before it was only "theory" to use bits on a real-world basis.

Besides, if people are even *on* this forum, they're smart enough to figure out what a "bit" is -- as for your common person? We have to make sacrifices to help them and keep Bitcoin moving forward. I know I have made the sacrifice. I look forward to hearing what more people have to say, as I am very interested in this for my own services.

Most people who can do advanced things with computers probably know what mili and micro means however this is not the case for much of the general population. In order for bitcoin's adoption to grow it mus be used by more of the population who do not work in IT/do very advanced things with computers.

It has been mentioned several times in this thread that these terms are too complicated. Also the fact that satashi is the smallest unit of measure of a bitcoin further complicates things because people do not know what the "base" 0 unit is

Posted this in a different thread concerning 'bits':

Here's the reasoning they shouldn't use 'bit' ------>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit

A bit is the basic unit of information in computing and digital communications.


and 'bit' is an International Electrotechnical Commission's standard unit -------> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60027

This is exactly the thing that bitcoin has been named after. ;)

Satoshi wanted to show the importance of information sciences. Re-defining "bit" would kind-of defeat that purpose.

No, I don't use it and I plan to never use it in future also. I use satoshi, mBtc and Btc.

Wow, i barely got mbtc and ubtc but always makes mistakes with zeros but more with bits now.

No one can mistake this number 1.12345678 BTC. It is as exact as needed, and if you want a buffer, go add the possible transaction fee. When I deal with people, I state all 8 decimal places, just so we have no misunderstanding, even if the least significant digit is zero, unless I am dealing with whole bitcoins.

I like the name Mike for 100 satoshi.

I also do this to prevent the other party from misunderstanding, I don't think I've ever used "bits" or even satoshi when doing business. 1.12345678 is probably the easiest to follow and not much can go wrong as everyone is familar with it.

Dabs you definitely have a point. Here's the problem with units:

* People don't (even though they could) use commas to separate the numbers. This would make 1.12345678 much easier to read: 1.1234,5678 ... or 1.123,456,78

* Notice the "comma" grouping in our number system (arabic) separates every 3 digits: 1,432,235,439. You can read that number out loud because you can "visually" calculate the reading.

* Speaking of "visually" calculating the reading, this is where it becomes important: your average person cannot distinguish any more than a group of 5 items. When you see that 1 pill is on the ground, you calculate this quickly. When you see that 2 keys are on the ground, this is easy for you to mentally put together. When you see 3 lizards on your patio (or 3 bugs), your mind automatically connect with the fact that there are "3".

* Moving forward: if 4 pens are on the table, you can tell "at a glance" that there are 4 pens at the table. This is an important point, because when you group things by 4 or less, it reduces the possibility of human error.

Given these points above, the reason our number system separates numbers by commas is not accidental. You might be a super genius that can determine, at a glance, that an entire bag of M&M candies spilled onto the ground is 524 items, but the reality is your common person cannot do that. And that is what using "bits" is all about: for the common person to use with minimal error, and to understand.

My company is constantly dealing with and analyzing bitcoin transactional amounts. At the moment we're using Armory for business operations. And I'll say...it's a pain in the butt verifying numbers, but as long as we use our fingers to help us compare the accuracy of 0.43343433 being created for a transaction and that same amount listed on a spread sheet or contract, we're fine. It still leaves room for error, because after all we're human...

So to reply to your comment, while no one can mistake 1.12345678, there are surely many people who haven't memorized how many digits are past the decimal point--and cannot know at a glance! And there are many variations of numbers within the digits that many, many common people (even exceptionally talented minds) will and have mistaken.

Nothing in your post explains why "bits" is a better name than microbitcoins, microbits, micros, mikes, micks, you-bee-tee-see, you-bits, mu-bits, mu-bee-tee-see, or mu's.

very interesting

I would be willing to bet that every single person here who objects to 'bits' on the grounds of ambiguity is someone who knows at least one programming language. Remember *you* are not the audience this term is intended to cater to, it's for "normal" humans who are totally comfortable with resolving ambiguity from context. For them, being easy to remember and associate is far more important than being unambiguous. For normals, the word 'bit' has nothing to do with information science. The much, much more common meaning for this term is 'a small amount'.

Even though you think you hate ambiguity, you can determine from context when 'bit' means 1/8 of a byte, or when it means a small amount, or when it's an antiquated term for half a quarter as in 'no good 2-bit town', or when it refers to a piece of equipment that goes in a horse's mouth, or when it's what you put in the end of a drill. Humans are not computers. We effortlessly derive meaning from context. Route memorization of unambiguously unique terms is what requires effort. We don't have a lot of RAM to work with.

No I don't use 'bits' it's 100sat to me.  I don't ever expect to use bits or microbitcoins as I simply don't see the need.

0.001btc = 1btm (anything between 0.001btc-1btc uses bitmill/btm as the unit)

0.306btc = 306btm

Amounts under 0.001btc are satoshis or sat/ksat

0.00095btc = 95ksat

0.000025btc = 2.5ksat

0.000005btc = 500sat

This is simple and makes sense to me - if you don't like it I really don't care and think WAY too much time has been devoted over the years worrying about what people will call the various units of btc.  Let the programmers talk in terms of microbitcoins and people who like their own colloquial terms use them as they please - we'll all be able to figure it out and eventually some set of terms will make it's way into common usage (assuming btc survives long enough.)   Those terms will NOT be determined by silly arguing on this forum however

I'm thinking of using it.will be very interesting if we all use it.

Why do you all support "bits", being good only for "normal people" when you could support something like "mikes" which is good for both "normal people" and the technically minded.  Why outright try to alienate a good chunk of the existing Bitcoin community for no gain whatsoever.

"easy to remember and associate" or "unambiguous" is a false dichotomy.  Why choose between them when we can have both for free?

Why would you use bits
1 bit only equal as $0.0003905

Most people only use BTC / mBTC  when buy / sell something
But, most people will use it when bitcoin price is very high


Because it's easier to say

I wouldn't use bits it confuses people. Sticking to satoshi and bitcoin and maybe mbtc is the best thing. Simple.

+1

I think many are missing the point about 'bits'. Its not so much about the name 'bits' but rather about how the amount is expressed in order to make it more readable but also to make it more familiar in that there is only two decimal places just as with most currencies in use today.

Same. I have become so used to seeing a bunch of 0's. 0.00005222 and whatnot. I just say 5222 sat, whatever. I only speak in terms of BTC or sat if its less than BTC. Im too dumb to think in terms of uBTC and whatnot.

Everyone who uses bitcoin to date, are the geeks. That's just the way the world works. The early adopters are the ones who understand. It's the "normal" human beings who can't read 8 decimal places that have difficulty with this.

I think we all started as "normal" and through use, eventually became accustomed to 8 decimal places. Particularly if you have experienced playing with dice. (as in, those game sites that accept and bet fractions of a bitcoin.)

I don't know what the convention will be in the future, when we reach mass adoption. It will be easy for us to adjust, but for me, and many others, as well as the core developers, it started with 8 decimal places, and that's what we will be using for some time.

I'd debate that.  I don't see that "bits" is objectively easier to say than "mikes".  In fact, I've noticed that people of various different cultural backgrounds, with different natural languages, have a bit of a problem with "b" and "v" when it comes to English.

I'm not saying that "bits" is bad because it's hard to say, far from it.  I simply reject your claim that it's easier to say than "mikes" and that's why "mikes" should be rejected from consideration.


The name "mikes" existed long before (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=10595.0) "bits" was ever coined, and for precisely the same reasons.  The only new thing the Reddit "it's bits" (http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1rmto3/its_bits/) post gave to the community was a new name for an old idea.  This in itself is not such a bad thing, but the newly proposed name created an ambiguity, one the poster was well aware of (they reference milli-bits and micro-bits in the post).  The whole "bits" movement has only ever been about the name.

If the "bits" crowd really cared about readability, familiarity, and accessibility for new users, the last thing they should have done was intentionally start a name flamewar for the unit.  Fortunately, the same attack against "satoshi" (http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bzwep/can_we_throw_out_the_word_satoshi_and_use_bit/) never picked up steam.

Im no geek and I understand most of the way bitcoin works haha.

We already have Satoshi... so who needs "bits"? It only adds confusion, because everybody has to figure out how many Satoshies (the smallest unit) constitute one bit.

You can use Bitcents for the bigger fractions of a Bitcoin. For the smaller fractions you can use Satoshies - if there are a lot of them just add a "K" for thousands... e.g. 10 K Sat.. Everybody understands that, because the reference point is the smallest unit and it is convenient to write as well.

We don't need to define new units, because two units have already evolved naturally: Bitcoin and Satoshi.

ya.ya.yo!

I believe the game "Money Pot" uses bits. https://www.moneypot.com/ (https://www.moneypot.com/)

Use Btc or satoshi, no mBtc and no bits.

Mikes have no intuitive association with bitcoin, and it's almost as ambiguous since its already a first name. (Ambiguity is obviously not a problem for either)

Also just using satoshis isn't an option. It needs to have two decimals like nearly every other currency on the planet. For those worried a bit isn't worth enough, give it a second! 20months ago a bitcoin was $13

Why? Is there an ISO standard that states that all currencies must be specified as having 2 and only 2 decimal places?

Figured i'd just let ya know what the future holds :D

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=813167.msg9257385#msg9257385

Who needs S.I. units   ::) ::)

http://i.lvme.me/uwrlrz5.jpg

You link to another thread I'm also active in. Nobody talked about ISO there. What's your point?

I'm assuming the goal here is to increase adoption. In that case 2 decimal places is what the majority of the world is comfortable with, not to mention all existing financial software.

LOL.. That is what we are all wishing to happen.

now, the currency price about  is still low,' bits'  and uBTC don't need.

HAH!

Who cares, we'll be old as fuck by then :(

By then, planet earth already destroyed, and robots are running the galaxy government  :D :D

...and then one day you see "BTC: 0.0005321" and mistake it for "5321 Sats" when it is not.

...would've easily seen that correctly if it were as "Bits: 532.1"

Milli-bitcoins and Micro-bitcoins are good enough units for me.  :)