Bitcoin Forum

Economy => Speculation => Topic started by: LakeBTC on October 20, 2014, 04:36:10 AM



Title: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: LakeBTC on October 20, 2014, 04:36:10 AM
https://www.lakebtc.com/assets/bitcoin-69e981da17b5795f9b3fee2c58367769.png (https://www.lakebtc.com/p/7064?locale=en)


Flash Crashes

Bitcoin Markets

On August 14, 2014, bitcoin price dropped sharply on a bitcoin exchange. Four days later, another flash crash happened again on another bitcoin exchange. Bitcoin price fell under $309 and bounced back to $440 in minutes like a roller-coaster. There are quite a few articles and discussions about these two incidences and obviously a lot of people lost a non-trivial amount of money, while a few "lucky" guys brought home piles of cheap coins.

Flash crashes are not something new, even in the cryptocurrency world. For instance, on March 21, litecoin price dived to 1 CNY from 103 CNY in minutes on a Chinese exchange. What it means is virtually ALL users using margin, be it 10% or 2% leverage rate, got busted. Lots of people were forced to liquidate their positions, and many accounts even ended up with negative assets. The exchange in question was also at the brink of insolvency.

Traditional Markets

Similar things happened to the traditional, mature capital markets, too. For example, on August 16, 2013, Shanghai Stock Exchange Composite Index soared 5% in just 2 minutes. Regulators' investigation of the incidence accused Everbright Securities of market manipulation and possible insider trading.

On May 6, 2010, the Dow Jones Industrial Average fell almost one thousand points. More than 90% of the U.S. stocks plummeted.

On Dec 8, 2005, a customer asked a Mizuho Securities broker to sell 1 share of J-Com company at JPY 610,000, but stockbroker mistakenly entered a trade to sell 610,000 shares at a price of JPY 1 per share. This typo triggered a free fall of the J-Com company stock price.

The list can go on and on, including Morgan Stanley in 2004, Lehman Brothers in 2001. The question is, why flash crashes happen and how to avoid them?

Causes of Flash Crashes

There are a number of reasons but the most popular ones are leverage, price manipulation, and trader mistakes. Often these factors stack on each other to further worsen the situation, very quickly.

Leverage

Bitcoin flash crashes we mentioned at the beginning were good (or bad) examples of leverage's role played. Any initial price decline, triggered intentionally by a financial predator or unintentionally by a butterfly flapping its wings, quickly entered into a positive feedback loop and crashed the entire market in minutes or seconds. It's like an avalanche or nuclear chain reaction. Once triggered, it grows extremely fast and almost impossible to stop.

Attacker

For attackers, there are two things that are indispensible: sufficient market information and enough money. With the knowledge of the full market depth (and user margin/short positions). an attacker can easily find out exactly how much money is needed to drag the price to a specific level. Within a millisecond, he can spit out all orders necessary and before anybody else gets a chance to react, the price is already changed wildly. This type of attacks are very lucrative along with margin calls, forced liquidation, and futures positions somewhere else. It's profitable, easy to execute, and hard to resist.

Trader Mistakes

A few incidents in the stock market history turned out to be human or algorithm mistakes. Nevertheless, enormous amount of investors' money vaporized because of these silly errors. It is obviously not acceptable and the exchanges and security firms involved also had to suffer monetary penalties and endless litigations. With modern computers, advanced algorithms, and fiber networks, crashes like these are repeating themselves again and again. There gotta be a better way to monitor and prevent market disasters like this.

Crash Risk Mitigations

Leverage

Many sharp declines in financial markets were largely attributed to the leverage involved, especially for cryptocurrencies.

The entire bitcoin capitalization is still very tiny, the number of bitcoin in circulation is even smaller, and the market is quite illiquid compared to most of other traditional financial assets.

Besides, there are dozens of bitcoin exchanges scattered around the world, and the already limited market depth is further diluted.

Born merely 5 years ago, bitcoin has yet to develop a robust ecosystem and attract enough sophisticated market players. Most of the bitcoin exchanges do not have enough financial background to run a safe and bullet-proof platform to take good care of customers fund. People have to realize that bitcoin businesses are not just another tech startup. Coding talents and marketing skills are important, but risk management and internal controls are crucial. Any negligence or mistake on the financial side will sink the entire ship with all passengers, either by a storm or an attacker. Mt.Gox was, sadly, a good example.

Therefore, it might not be the right time to introduce leverage trading, be it margin/short trading or P2P lending, to the bitcoin world. Don't get me wrong - leverages, futures, options, plain vanilla or exotic, and all varieties of other derivatives and structured products are useful financial instruments, and LakeBTC will introduce them sooner or later. The thing is, market needs to be ready, and more importantly, the exchange itself needs to be ready. Leverage is a weapon of massive destruction, just like CDO (collateralized debt obligation) and CDS (credit default swap) in the '08 financial tsunami. If not used properly, it's a disaster to everybody onboard.

There are enough bad examples in the traditional capital markets that are supposed to be mature, liquid, and robust. Even the fixed-income and foreign exchange markets, which are well known for their unlimited liquidity and endless depth, are not immune to crashes. Arming bitcoin exchanges run by a bunch of geeks and technologists with financial WMDs? Not a good idea. It is always easy to copy something from the traditional markets. Running it right with appropriate risk management is what really matters here.

It's like a giving a student pilot a high-performance (i.e., over 200 horsepower) or twin-engine airplane to fly, with hundreds of passengers sitting in the back. More horsepower and more engines are always good, as long as you know what you are doing. You have higher rate of climb and can fly thru weather more quickly. There's a reason why high performance endorsement and multi-engine rating exist in aviation. A guy who's good at fixing cars doesn't necessarily mean he's a good pilot automatically. It takes lots of training, experience, and a major change in mindset. When you are ready to handle the machine and weather, a better airplane with more engine power will definitely take you, and your passenger, to a higher altitude safely.

Market Surveillance

To any exchange, an effective market surveillance program is a critical component that ensures the fairness and smoothness of the marketplace. Unusual activities, abnormal positions, sudden price changes, and suspicious trades should raise alarms to exchange operators and if necessary, preventative actions should be taken quickly to mitigate the risk of price manipulations and human errors.

Should a comprehensive market surveillance program be implemented, the flash crashes in Tokyo Stock Exchange and Shanghai Stock Exchange mentioned above could have been avoided.

LakeBTC does have a real time market surveillance program to monitor unusual trading activities and suspicious positions. By comparing with bitcoin index prices from other sources, we try to reduce the risk of market manipulations by individual attackers.

Order Book

Let's say bitcoin is trading at $500 right now, and our orderbook is showing bid/ask orders from $490 - $510. That would be enough for most users, and advanced traders may want to see more market depth, say between $450 and $550. But, who would want to view bid orders at $400 (20% off the current price) or even all the way down to $0.01? Or ask orders at $700 or as high as $1 million per coin? That information is ridiculous and irrelevant to most, if not all, trading strategies. It is not even noise. It is simply something traders ignore.

However, the same information could be useful to marker manipulators. They can easily calculate the ammunition required to ambush innocent investors. If the current price is $500, and an attacker needs to bring the price down to a target price, say $309, to trigger a chain reaction of forced liquidation, it'd be a straightforward math to figure out the money needed. As we mentioned earlier, bitcoin market cap is tiny, and the depth is further diluted. It wouldn't take an enormous amount of money to swing the market. Then he can fire out all the orders in the blink of an eye and the price drops instantly to where it's planned to be.

To reduce the chance of orderbook attacks, LakeBTC decides to make only the most relevant part of our orderbook open to public. Financial predators wouldn't be able to determine the amount of fund needed for a specific attack, and for most "good" traders, their strategies are not affected at all.

Dark Pool

To further mitigate the orderbook attack risk, LakeBTC provides dark pool (https://www.lakebtc.com/p/2472?locale=en) (or invisible) orders to our users. Basically any user can place dark pool orders for free, as long as the order size is 50 BTC or more. All dark pool orders are not shown in public orderbook, and invisible to everybody, including financial predators. Without accurate and complete market depth information, it'll further reduce the willingness of aforementioned market manipulation activities. As a matter of fact, such dark pool order type is quite mature and popular in traditional equity exchanges worldwide.

LakeBTC's version of dark pool is designed to protect the interests of all investors, not the other way around. Unlike some other exchanges, we do not sell this information to anybody so it's fair to all traders. Contrary to many people's intuition, full transparency sometimes implies unfairness and hurt average users in one way or another. Nowadays in Wall Street (plus New Jersey and Chicago), predators, with the assistance of exchanges, can take advantages of other investors by co-lo (co-location) and so-called latency arbitrage. They consume and react to the same public information a few milliseconds earlier than the rest of the world, and by doing that everybody else is robbed without even knowing it. These professional attackers are always equipped with better network, better computers and better algorithms. The public information, such as full orderbook, is not the same to everybody as before.

Security, liquidity, and service are three strengths that make LakeBTC stand out of the crowd. We take the safety of users assets and personal information very seriously. Additionally, creating a fair and efficient marketplace is also important to protect investors' interests. We do everything in our power to minimize market manipulations and unfairness. Market surveillance program, carefully designed products, comprehensive risk management, and strict internal controls are all meant to make sure this young and energetic market is fair and safe to every participant.

A bitcoin exchange is not just another technology company, but more importantly, also a financial one. There's no denying that SSL encryptions, cold storage, 2-factor authentication, and SMS confirmations are important, but risk management and internal controls are really what matters to financial institutions in the long run. When the black swan comes, people may appreciate all these experience and measures better.


https://www.lakebtc.com/p/7064?locale=en


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: lihuajkl on October 20, 2014, 07:13:28 AM
so the price movement is like the traditional markets. Any crash happens at any unexpected time. So the price will never become stable. Am I correct?


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: turvarya on October 20, 2014, 07:21:55 AM
I like the idea of someone just messing around with all the trade bots.


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: EsaEzekiel on October 20, 2014, 07:33:20 AM
 :o
TL;DR

I still do not understand what is the effect on dark pool exactly? What's the relationship with the flashcrash?


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: GreenCoin22 on October 20, 2014, 09:30:31 AM
I have no idea about it, but what difference between Bitcoin Markets and Traditional Markets actually?


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: Endgame on October 20, 2014, 12:02:39 PM
Excellent post. For those wondering, the exchanges mentioned by OP that experienced flash crashes were Bitfinex (August 14), Btc-e (August 18) and Huobi (March 21).



Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: Q7 on October 20, 2014, 12:03:32 PM
I believe the problem here is that some people buy with margin and hedge their position using money that they don't actually own. So it is a margin call or forced sell by the traders to protect their position.
Another potential scenario is that people might be rushing to sell to mitigate substantial loss. It's like panic selling.


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: lilin321 on October 20, 2014, 12:08:08 PM
on  some  Chinese exchanges,Leverage is allowed,This is one of the main reasons for  the prices falling . so many participants, bitcoin fans expected these trading platforms to stop leveraged trading, but the trading platforms dind't care  for their own interests.


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: TinaK on October 20, 2014, 01:22:05 PM
Excellent post. For those wondering, the exchanges mentioned by OP that experienced flash crashes were Bitfinex (August 14), Btc-e (August 18) and Huobi (March 21).


There is an old Chinese saying "Lessons learned from the past can guide one in the future"


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: bitllionaire on October 20, 2014, 06:31:14 PM
Most reasons of flash crashes are bots and misclicks of whales
btce last flash crash was because of the bots


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: odolvlobo on October 20, 2014, 07:12:07 PM
The primary cause of a flash crash is lack of liquidity. None of the other causes listed above will result in a flash crash if the market is liquid enough to support the volume, though margin calls and stop loss orders can exacerbate the situation.


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: cozk on October 20, 2014, 08:06:39 PM
tl;dr

life's too short to read every idiot's theory on something as unpredictable as BTC.


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: Balkhole on October 20, 2014, 11:38:29 PM
The primary cause of a flash crash is lack of liquidity. None of the other causes listed above will result in a flash crash if the market is liquid enough to support the volume, though margin calls and stop loss orders can exacerbate the situation.

Stop loss orders are not new to the bitcoin world.

I think the flash crashes are due to the advent of margin trading with bitcoin as many people do not fully understand the risks of doing so and will use "full margin" so the majority of sites that allow margin will have most of their users having very little "wiggle room" when prices decline only a little bit


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: allthingsluxury on October 21, 2014, 12:19:25 AM
Bitcoin, as with many markets, is very unpredictable. Regardless the long term fundamentals of BTC remain strong.


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: GreenCoin22 on October 21, 2014, 02:23:16 AM
Were it mean the new one flash crash coming?


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: GÜNther.Danish on October 21, 2014, 04:05:36 AM
tl;dr

 could you predict when and where is the next flash crashes coming?   ;)


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: Fioraver on October 21, 2014, 05:31:49 AM
Is this the reason that you do not launch leverage?


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: Mieehayii on October 21, 2014, 06:40:32 AM
the price is as low as $309 in last flash crashes, but now, the dream come true finally without flash crashes


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: Cassie.Jill on October 21, 2014, 08:28:47 AM
a-ah, flash crash

I am really curious what the price will be like that, I can't imagine the price will stay this low after this month, I know many people are trying to pool fiat to make purchases at monent price.

next week is payday for alot of people, maybe we see some sort of rebound  :P


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: CUNÉGONDE on October 22, 2014, 02:28:26 AM
Do not care these flash crash, hold your bitcoin in the storm comes, tomorrow the price would to the mars.


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: SanMerryDro on October 22, 2014, 03:14:40 AM
Do not care these flash crash, hold your bitcoin in the storm comes, tomorrow the price would to the mars.
The more experienced flash crashes, the price will be more stable. This is one reason for long-term holding Bitcoin


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: 1echo on October 22, 2014, 03:17:36 AM
we need to live with those


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: deluxeCITY on October 22, 2014, 04:13:08 AM
Bitcoin, as with many markets, is very unpredictable. Regardless the long term fundamentals of BTC remain strong.
The bitcoin markets have tended to be more unpredictable then most capital markets that people are used to being. 


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: Valeey on October 22, 2014, 05:14:43 AM
Bitcoin, as with many markets, is very unpredictable. Regardless the long term fundamentals of BTC remain strong.
The bitcoin markets have tended to be more unpredictable then most capital markets that people are used to being. 

MIT computer scientists can predict the price of Bitcoin https://newsoffice.mit.edu/2014/mit-computer-scientists-can-predict-price-bitcoin

how it works??   ???


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: Brmaster on October 22, 2014, 07:56:08 AM
a-ah, flash crash

I am really curious what the price will be like that, I can't imagine the price will stay this low after this month, I know many people are trying to pool fiat to make purchases at monent price.

next week is payday for alot of people, maybe we see some sort of rebound  :P

There are one week from the end of this month, many things may happen, we can't predict in advance


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: arbitrage001 on October 22, 2014, 10:12:23 AM
Most reasons of flash crashes are bots and misclicks of whales
btce last flash crash was because of the bots

Seem that every time there is a flash crash on btce, everyone blame it on bot.



Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: teukon on October 22, 2014, 11:04:57 AM
The list can go on and on, including Morgan Stanley in 2004, Lehman Brothers in 2001. The question is, why flash crashes happen and how to avoid them?

This stuff seems interesting to me but I lack background, background that is not so easy to find.  Do you have good links for more basic questions: "What precisely is a flash crash?", "Why are they considered bad?", "Are they actually bad?".


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: bitcoinpiece on October 22, 2014, 12:19:01 PM
Reject those thoughts. Dont pay attention with it. Carry on with your enthusiasm with bitcoin and wait for the next rise.


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: pitham1 on October 23, 2014, 12:31:59 AM
The list can go on and on, including Morgan Stanley in 2004, Lehman Brothers in 2001. The question is, why flash crashes happen and how to avoid them?

This stuff seems interesting to me but I lack background, background that is not so easy to find.  Do you have good links for more basic questions: "What precisely is a flash crash?", "Why are they considered bad?", "Are they actually bad?".

If you have an outstanding buy order at ridiculously low levels and it gets filled in a flash crash, you wouldn't think that these crashes are bad, right?


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: Sophie.Greek on October 23, 2014, 03:44:57 AM
a-ah, flash crash

I am really curious what the price will be like that, I can't imagine the price will stay this low after this month, I know many people are trying to pool fiat to make purchases at monent price.

next week is payday for alot of people, maybe we see some sort of rebound  :P
Do you think what happens if the ETF launches and isn't the savior what next?


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: CUNÉGONDE on October 23, 2014, 07:50:49 AM
Do not care these flash crash, hold your bitcoin in the storm comes, tomorrow the price would to the mars.
The more experienced flash crashes, the price will be more stable. This is one reason for long-term holding Bitcoin

wish you are right, but the key is how to avoid flash crashes


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: Mieehayii on October 24, 2014, 02:23:05 AM
Do not care these flash crash, hold your bitcoin in the storm comes, tomorrow the price would to the mars.
The more experienced flash crashes, the price will be more stable. This is one reason for long-term holding Bitcoin

wish you are right, but the key is how to avoid flash crashes
the price is going to fall $350. when does it flash jump?


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: btceuropen on October 24, 2014, 03:55:23 AM
could ddos attack cause flash crashes?


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: desticy on October 24, 2014, 05:27:18 AM
tl;dr
flash crashes only a moment, but bitcoin is always


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: Cassie.Jill on October 24, 2014, 08:17:22 AM
Excellent post. For those wondering, the exchanges mentioned by OP that experienced flash crashes were Bitfinex (August 14), Btc-e (August 18) and Huobi (March 21).


Thanks for infor


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: Skoupi on October 24, 2014, 08:34:51 AM
Contrary to many people's intuition, full transparency sometimes implies unfairness and hurt average users in one way or another.

 ??? :o Dark pools give an unfair advantage to hf/algorithmic traders... Transparency never hurt anyone. I wonder how you come to that conclusion  ::)


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: bounst on October 27, 2014, 04:22:19 AM
Contrary to many people's intuition, full transparency sometimes implies unfairness and hurt average users in one way or another.

 ??? :o Dark pools give an unfair advantage to hf/algorithmic traders... Transparency never hurt anyone. I wonder how you come to that conclusion  ::)
maybe the answer is "Things are always two sides...",  lol


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: Francesca on October 27, 2014, 05:27:38 AM
tl;dr
flash crashes only a moment, but bitcoin is always
You are too optimistic


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: Pkuwag on October 27, 2014, 07:11:58 AM
when is the next flash crashes?
what is the bottom of bitcoin price?
how should we make profit from it?


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: BTCjust on October 27, 2014, 10:09:01 AM
when is the next flash crashes?
what is the bottom of bitcoin price?
how should we make profit from it?
maybe god knows
0
how do I make money if I share it to you?


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: SanMerryDro on October 28, 2014, 01:48:49 AM
Do not care these flash crash, hold your bitcoin in the storm comes, tomorrow the price would to the mars.
The more experienced flash crashes, the price will be more stable. This is one reason for long-term holding Bitcoin

wish you are right, but the key is how to avoid flash crashes
the price is going to fall $350. when does it flash jump?

At least you can say the price is stable now. Try to comfort yourself under any circumstances


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: opossum on October 28, 2014, 05:09:17 AM
The list can go on and on, including Morgan Stanley in 2004, Lehman Brothers in 2001. The question is, why flash crashes happen and how to avoid them?

This stuff seems interesting to me but I lack background, background that is not so easy to find.  Do you have good links for more basic questions: "What precisely is a flash crash?", "Why are they considered bad?", "Are they actually bad?".
The US government seems to believe that 'flash crashes' are 'bad' as after the dow dropped ~1,000 points in only a few minutes the SEC instituted new trading rules that were designed to prevent future flash crashes.

I am not entirely sure why many people consider them to be bad, as I would argue that they are simply the market allowing to "discover" the price of a security on it's own


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: Gine.Unnta on October 29, 2014, 08:00:19 AM
The list can go on and on, including Morgan Stanley in 2004, Lehman Brothers in 2001. The question is, why flash crashes happen and how to avoid them?

This stuff seems interesting to me but I lack background, background that is not so easy to find.  Do you have good links for more basic questions: "What precisely is a flash crash?", "Why are they considered bad?", "Are they actually bad?".
The US government seems to believe that 'flash crashes' are 'bad' as after the dow dropped ~1,000 points in only a few minutes the SEC instituted new trading rules that were designed to prevent future flash crashes.

I am not entirely sure why many people consider them to be bad, as I would argue that they are simply the market allowing to "discover" the price of a security on it's own
Market pricing is illusory

Whether Marx or Adam Smith, the market needs to be forced managed by government in the back


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: bornil267645 on October 29, 2014, 08:32:12 AM
Flash Crash.... Interesting theory.... Is there any way to manipulate this crashes... In that case it would be pretty obvious.


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: Skoupi on October 29, 2014, 10:44:26 AM
Flash Crash.... Interesting theory.... Is there any way to manipulate this crashes... In that case it would be pretty obvious.

Crashes are the effect of manipulation (some times at least). I guess you mean to take some advantage of a crash by selling high and rebuying at a lower price which is how everyone in the speculation sub forum loses money  ;D :P


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: TwaiteTokyo on October 30, 2014, 01:52:35 AM
Flash Crash.... Interesting theory.... Is there any way to manipulate this crashes... In that case it would be pretty obvious.

Crashes are the effect of manipulation (some times at least). I guess you mean to take some advantage of a crash by selling high and rebuying at a lower price which is how everyone in the speculation sub forum loses money  ;D :P
Do you want to be a prophet?


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: CUNÉGONDE on November 03, 2014, 07:23:50 AM
Do not care these flash crash, hold your bitcoin in the storm comes, tomorrow the price would to the mars.
The more experienced flash crashes, the price will be more stable. This is one reason for long-term holding Bitcoin

wish you are right, but the key is how to avoid flash crashes
the price is going to fall $350. when does it flash jump?

At least you can say the price is stable now. Try to comfort yourself under any circumstances
what you mean? the price is below $330, and broken $300 soon


Title: Re: Random thoughts on flash crashes
Post by: SanMerryDro on November 17, 2014, 06:26:42 AM
Do not care these flash crash, hold your bitcoin in the storm comes, tomorrow the price would to the mars.
The more experienced flash crashes, the price will be more stable. This is one reason for long-term holding Bitcoin

wish you are right, but the key is how to avoid flash crashes
the price is going to fall $350. when does it flash jump?

At least you can say the price is stable now. Try to comfort yourself under any circumstances
what you mean? the price is below $330, and broken $300 soon

huh, it should broken $400 soon  ::)