Bitcoin Forum

The fee for each trade at BTCChina is 0.3%.

AND, for the more astute amongst you.

btcchina price spike has blown up and THROUGH the top of the identically forming flat top ascending triangle that has been forming the last several months.  that's bullish.

all seemed to start from memorydealers recent presentation in China, this new 10 times previous normal volumes is probably the second wave of awareness & opportunity interest spreading out from that, exponentially hopefully

Has anyone run the analysis to figure out if BTC moving through this market participant has an average level of taint?  I mean, another thing which happened fairly recently is that a decent size haul was made at the expense of Bitcoinica after all.

The implication being that... someone stole a bunch of coins and then bought more coins on a chinese exchange?

The implication being that... someone stole a bunch of coins and then bought more coins on a chinese exchange?

I'm guessing it would be hard to arbitrage this because the chinese currency cannot easily be moved to gox?

weird: can't seem to find "btcchina.com" exchange on bitcoincharts.com. where is it?

Could we be seeing tremors of BTC being used to route around the pegged USDCNY?

I'm guessing it would be hard to arbitrage this because the chinese currency cannot easily be moved to gox?

So in essence, this wont pull the other markets up much, right?

Well, umm, ya.  Most market theories assume due to the definition of a 'transaction', there is a buyer for every seller, and a seller for every buyer. FWIW.  I'm not up-to-speed on the Libertarian economic theories so they may differ.  Not sure.

Also, an utterly swell way to avoid potential taint problem is to mix things up in an exchange where there are a lot of honest actors.  Or at least that is what I would be my line of thinking were I a thief.  I happened to be quite active on Tradehill when there was a pretty strong suspicion that the former 'allinvain' coin was tossing around.  I expect that my cold-store wallets are somewhat more warm with these.  People who took BTC straight from Tradehill to Mt. Gox at around the time I was a heavy buyer got harassed until they explained to Mark the situation.  The cool thing was that whoever was unloading the coin was willing to do so at a noticeable loss...which also rung a bell when I read this thread about the BTCChina goings on.

This seems like a very big deal. I wonder if it is direct interest in Bitcoin or someone figuring out how to get a different flavor of funny money for their ChinaBux.

Hmmm.

Now the volume is over 10700 btc.
Seems like a freak spike to me. Does anyone have actual insight on what is going on here? Seems strange that china - out of nowhere - becomes comparable to mtgox from one day to the next...

On the other hand, IIRC, there is a law that forbids the use of virtual currencies for anything other than purchases of virtual goods.

we don't know if this activity will remain sustained.
and don't forget that mtgox's volume is relatively low today...

If you are determined enough I guess you could fly over to HK or Russia (or any other jurisdiction where banks open accounts in CNY), open a CNY and USD accounts at a bank there and convert CNY<->USD as needed ;)
Not sure if any exchange restrictions apply but certainly CNY bank accounts are available in at least two jurisdictions mentioned above.

“Oh sure, absolutely, WTF security - security we have an incident at counter number 2, taze this terrorist, take down - take down.”

Atm the only option is finding a Chinese Alipay to whatever exchange you trust and make use of their services.

LR direct is in the works but still a while off.

You subbers can just click the 'notify' link to subscribe and it doesn't muck up the thread (and notify the rest of us that you're subscribing)

Most of us do not check our e-mail for thread updates. We just click on "Show new replies to your posts.
"

Nice to meet you, "Most Of Us" :D

Seriously, what makes you think that you know what most of us do? I for one check my email for notifications.

I don't even understand how you get notified by clicking"show new replies"without using email.

Most of us do not check our e-mail for thread updates. We just click on "Show new replies to your posts.

That's fine, but "notify" allows for the same functionality for you but without the disappointment for the rest of us of "great! more good stuff to read... aw shit, just a subber".

In the streets of Beijing you can get Bittcoins for half the price, and you almost can't tell the difference….

In the streets of Beijing you can get Bittcoins for half the price, and you almost can't tell the difference….

+1
(I would get an e-mail every 2 mins!)

You don't get "notified" you just see the threads you have posted to that have new replies (and although I don't like to put in a nothing message I do sometimes just make a post so I can keep up with a thread this way).

You subbers can just click the 'notify' link to subscribe and it doesn't muck up the thread (and notify the rest of us that you're subscribing)

I know I should just try it out but since everyone else is yakking about this, what exactly do you mean when you say you "just see the threads you've just posted to"?

I think if you click on "Show new replies to your posts" a few times and enjoy the experience then you might well find yourself becoming another "subber". ;)

Gox is only at 20k volume today... it is theoretically possible that BTCChina would surpass Gox at some point here temporarily. THAT would be the first time any exchange has surpassed Gox's daily volume. I've never seen it. And for it to be CNY doing it?!?

Since the beginning of 2011 US citizens can open RMB accounts in person at the Bank of China, 2 in NY & 1 in LA, minimum of $500 - but you can't actually use it for anything except a savings account to then convert back in to US$ unfortunately

“Can I write checks in Chinese currency?” I asked.

“No, you cannot.”

“Can I withdraw Chinese currency?”

“No.”

“Can I go to Beijing and withdraw currency from my account there?”

“No.”

“Can I have a debit card and use it in Shanghai?”

“No.”

“Can I deposit currency in my account at the airport in Hong Kong on my way back to the states?”

“No.”

“Can I write checks in dollars?”

“No.”

“Can I send Yuan to the btcchina.com exchange & buy bitcoins with it & vice versa?”

“Oh sure, absolutely, WTF security - security we have an incident at counter number 2, taze this terrorist, take down - take down.”

“So what can I do?”

“You can deposit at minimum of $500 and it will be converted to RMB. If the value of the Chinese currency rises, your dollar account will increase in value. Then you can withdraw dollars. And it is insured by the FDIC.”

“Why would I want to open an account that I can’t really use?”

“Well, if the rate on your savings or money market account is barely zero percent and if the Chinese currency appreciates between 3% and 5% a year as it is expected to, then you can have a savings account at the Bank of China that yields you much more than any equivalent domestic American savings account with the same FDIC protection.”

Still going... over 13,000 volume past 24 hrs.

BTC price in USD at that exchange is now $5.64, and almost 4,000btc in bid orders are still there above $5.00 (I'm converting from yuan, obviously).

Gox is only at 20k volume today... it is theoretically possible that BTCChina would surpass Gox at some point here temporarily. THAT would be the first time any exchange has surpassed Gox's daily volume. I've never seen it. And for it to be CNY doing it?!?

That's fine, but "notify" allows for the same functionality for you but without the disappointment for the rest of us of "great! more good stuff to read... aw shit, just a subber".

In the streets of Beijing you can get Bittcoins for half the price, and you almost can't tell the difference….

According to BoC UK you can - Transfer Your own RMB account with a Bank of China Limited branch in China and Bank of China offers an RMB Current Account in the UK. You can easily deposit or withdraw RMB cash from the account and transfer funds. You can also get a VISA debit card linked to your RMB account - http://www.bankofchina.com/uk/pbservice/pb3/201109/t20110926_1576346.html (http://www.bankofchina.com/uk/pbservice/pb3/201109/t20110926_1576346.html) - http://www.bankofchina.com/uk/pbservice/pb1/201109/t20110926_1576339.html (http://www.bankofchina.com/uk/pbservice/pb1/201109/t20110926_1576339.html)

gnah! This forum sux big time. If I want to quickly see where I have to read up, /sub is the best way I know of. Complaining about a /sub, causing a big meta-discussion is pure trolling. Anybody who does /sub, please keep doing it. If there is a 100% replacement for that, please mods enforce its usage by forbidding /subbers pointing them to how to do it silently. ... enough troll feeding for today ...

so lets try and game theory this a bit more as to why this buying is occurring.

options:

1.  chinese are buying btc's so they can move their yuan out of china into a different fiat currency.
2.  chinese are enthusiastic about btc and are buying as an investment.

knowns:

1.  Chinese students laugh at Geithner (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2AEiYEei3o)
2.  world stock markets have had record volatility this month with more consecutive days of stock selling, 12 out of 13, since 1974.  it appears we're repeating 2008 all over again.
3.  Chinese economy is rolling over-numerous reports on Zerohedge about electricity consumption decreasing, loan growth slumping, commodity buying waning.
4.  gold is down 19% from the top. silver is down 43%. miners are down 56%.

i think the balance of evidence points to #2.  chinese students have understood and mocked the USD for years now.  they would be the first to understand and favor btc.  even the average chinese citizen has a better understanding of tech and money than the average American.  sorry guys, but true.

its possible #1 could be happening as buying a rising USD might make sense.  i know i've moved alot to USD cash but also alot to Bitcoin.  but given the chinese skepticism about the USD in that article by students, it seems less likely.

even if they are buying btc's for #1, its still bullish for Bitcoin b/c it is being used as a remittance vehicle.  this is what we've been saying all along.

Chinese citizens tend to save much more than Americans.  as we know, CB's worldwide have been cruel to savers in terms of miniscule interest rates.  they may think it makes sense to diversify out of fiat.  since the yuan is pegged to the USD, it too is rising as the USD rises.  this will decrease exports and i would argue the whole growth story has been a function of primarily Fed easing leading to a torrent of foreign debt based investment into yuan related investments.  this is now going into reverse.

why not buy gold/silver instead?  in general, the last 6 months btc has gone up relative to gold which has gone down. look at the dramatic statistics i've provided.

if the miracle China growth bubble is waning or in fact over, it would make much more sense that chinese would want to move their yuan out of China.  the easiest way to do this is via btc rather than buy metal which has to stay local and could be confiscated by a communist regime.

Chinese also love to gamble.  Bitcoin has much more potential than other investments.

as i said earlier, the lockstep movements of the gox and china charts suggest that the connection of btcchina to the outside world is relatively seamless w/o huge arbitrage opportunities having existed.  one might "expect" the goxusd price to move up in lockstep as well altho this is certainly not guaranteed.  in fact, a great arbitrage opportunity does now exist; and if #2 is true, means that chinese will somehow find a way to exchange yuan for usd's and buy the "cheap" btc at gox.

stock markets declining in May is a big warning sign that the trend has changed from reflation to deflation.  yuan is a peripheral currency to the world reserve USD and if you believe the primary trend has changed, as i do, then diversification of one's money is a logical move.

feel free to disagree or add anything i've missed.

so lets try and game theory this a bit more as to why this buying is occurring.

options:

1.  chinese are buying btc's so they can move their yuan out of china into a different fiat currency.

generally agree although everyone laughs at Geithner except perhaps Obama! everyone knows (secretly) that we are in a deflationary spiral (1930's style) but no one can utter the words or know when it will hit exactly. The Chinese know a good thing when they see it and so do I. BTC is what I have been waiting for and its implications for personal freedom go far beyond the raw economics (important that they are). They are doing exactly what I am buying as many as they can while they are cheap. However we will all be looking over our shoulders now at the FBI and the china fiewall to see what the "authorities "can do to stop this- because it is death to them. reg.

Yep, I believe there are controls in China/HK where you can only move $5,000 per day out of the country without a bunch of paperwork and business invoices. India is the same, btcindia.com would also be a major exchange should it ever be created

The sudden explosion in volume makes be believe that this is at most a handful of people buying bitcoin at btcchina. I wouldn't get too excited unless they can maintain this trading volume for at least a week.

I just wanted to encourage people to do their homework before they go participating in any sort of frenzy.

this theory makes no sense whatsoever.

1.  your own theory assumes that the ultimate goal of the thief is to "sell" btc's.
2.  "mixing" them with untainted coins is nonsensical.  
3.  first, odds are the hacker is not Chinese thus he would have to get a hold of CNY to do the buying.  that's hard and involves exchange fees.  even if he was Chinese it still makes no sense to buy up nontainted coins since it essentially triples the work.
4.  second, btcchina is less liquid than gox so the large rapid buying that has been done is highly inefficient in obtaining a good buy price and would only serve to erode his eventual selling profits.
5.  this theory also assumes that the hacker is wealthy enough to buy the almost 11,000 extra btc's that have gone off for mixing purposes only.  that is also highly unlikely.
6.  now he has to sell an even bigger load of btc's to cash out
7.  it would be better and easier to break them up into alot of smaller chunks and move them out several addresses down the line before selling them slowly at exchanges around the world which is what i understand he has already done.
8.  Mark is the only one i am aware of who has held up supposed "tainted" coins only one address away from the Bitcoinica stolen addresses.  and even these he has let thru eventually.  thus, if anything, the hacker should've "sold" those coins on btcchina or a different exchange driving down the price just like they did at Tradehill.
9.  therefore, the simplest explanation is the one that usually wins out; that of the Memory Dealers presentation stimulating the buying spree from pent up demand from existing btc holders who already had CNY at btcchina.

You subbers can just click the 'notify' link to subscribe and it doesn't muck up the thread (and notify the rest of us that you're subscribing)

This is what I do.

I don't even understand how you get notified by clicking"show new replies"without using email.

that notify-thingy sends a friggin email, man. Do you think I want 100 email per day in my inbox from bitcointalk???

The mere fact that the two  charts I put up already comparing gox to china are moving in lockstep is evidence enough that there should be no arbitrage barriers between the two.

Goxusd "should" move up in lockstep and soon.

Any idea how alipay / tenpay works for withdrawals ? I went to alipay but it seems to be only for registered business and not actually for clients so its strange that its offered as withdrawal method on btcchina.

Well, umm, ya.  Most market theories assume due to the definition of a 'transaction', there is a buyer for every seller, and a seller for every buyer. FWIW.  I'm not up-to-speed on the Libertarian economic theories so they may differ.  Not sure.

It is more about who is more impatient and active, buyer or seller i.e. who jumps the spread and hit ask or bid respectively.

china's secret rocket is going places

likes secret rocket pic

nice spike in ppl searching Wiki for Bitcoin in Chinese language
http://stats.grok.se/zh/201205/Bitcoin

interesting, just behind the UK but with a population a ninth of the size of only about 7M compared to over 63M for the UK

You mean withdraw from Alipay? You can withdraw to Chinese banks, no fee.

Although the site has been running for quite a while you should probably bear in mind the following (from a whois search):

Administrative Contact:
Huang, Xiaoyu
Fake Address,
Fake, Jiangsu 100000
China
+86.8160000

Technical Contact:
Huang, Xiaoyu
Fake Address,
Fake, Jiangsu 100000
China
+86.8160000

I somehow doubt that Huang, Xiaoyu is a real name. Huang means yellow (although a common family name) while "xiaoyu" quite likely means "small fish".

Hmm... I don't think I'd put too much money into something run by a small yellow fish from the area of "Fake" in Jiangsu province. :)

It's even worse than that: It's run by a small yellow fish who is a Big Pig on this forum lol
A pig that swims? ;D

Hmm... I don't think I'd want to risk too much money with a small yellow fish swimming around in the "Fake" part of Jiangsu province. :)

As someone who has lived in China, this is not an unusual name.

Although the site has been running for quite a while you should probably bear in mind the following (from a whois search):

Administrative Contact:
Huang, Xiaoyu
Fake Address,
Fake, Jiangsu 100000
China
+86.8160000

Technical Contact:
Huang, Xiaoyu
Fake Address,
Fake, Jiangsu 100000
China
+86.8160000

I somehow doubt that Huang, Xiaoyu is a real name. Huang means yellow (although a common family name) while "xiaoyu" quite likely means "small fish".

Hmm... I don't think I'd want to risk too much money with a small yellow fish swimming around in the "Fake" part of Jiangsu province. :)

You're over worried.

http://www.adminexe.com/beian-search-13625-1.html

And they have set up a lot of QQ group in China. And QQ cooperate with the Government a lot.

They use Alipay, which take great efforts to identify the real identity of its users. They have the ID information behind the Btcchina.

The ID card information is based on a controlling system which is called "Hukou", every chinese citizen except the soldier have a sigal number which can and should be checked with a central database, where the photo of the citizen can be find.

Nothing to identify anyone in that page.


Sure - am well aware of Hukou's etc. - guess if they really do know who the guy is he better just hope they don't ever find out what Bitcoin is (or he'd better hope to have left PRC before they do).

Maybe so - but running a site that allows you to change any sort of "virtual currency" into RMB is strictly illegal in China.

So if the guy is really so easy to find then I guess he is the one who should actually be more worried. :)

In Chinese, the law that governs this area is not so important. As long as the btcchina.com is small, the owner of btcchina should not be worried.

However, this is not a business which could be last.

Agreed entirely - my point is that the more publicity and injection of large amounts of money into the exchange the quicker it will simply end up gone (and the more that people will lose when it happens).

I just pump RMB on the Btcchina, and buy bitcoin, and withdraw all the bitcoin. Leave no bitcoin on btcchina.com.  If government decided to shut down btcchina, the officer will have to give the RMB back to the users. Bitcoin? not likely.

A good strategy and again agreed.

Just trying to give a "heads up" to foreigners who are talking about wanting to open up RMB accounts.

Umm what exactly is wrong with rmb accounts?

And if you've been in China for any length of time you should be completely aware of why whois etc are the way they are.

Making any claims that "in China bla bla bla" an idiotic fallacy.

And there is a ICP on the BTCchina.com.

And if a successful hacking attack similar to Bitcoinica were to occur with btcchina then I expect it would probably just disappear.

If there is no legal issues and you guys can be so well trusted then can you please just tell us the legal company name, address and phone number of btcchina so we can do our "due dilligence" ourselves then rather than relying on your "expertise in all matters Chinese".

I do hope that the "grey areas" of the law/regulations/etc. will become more "black and white" in the future to help this to succeed.

Although the site has been running for quite a while you should probably bear in mind the following (from a whois search):

Administrative Contact:
Huang, Xiaoyu
Fake Address,
Fake, Jiangsu 100000
China
+86.8160000

Technical Contact:
Huang, Xiaoyu
Fake Address,
Fake, Jiangsu 100000
China
+86.8160000

I somehow doubt that Huang, Xiaoyu is a real name. Huang means yellow (although a common family name) while "xiaoyu" quite likely means "small fish".

Hmm... I don't think I'd want to risk too much money with a small yellow fish swimming around in the "Fake" part of Jiangsu province. :)