Bitcoin Forum

People keep attributing the fall to $270 on the 19k coins being dumped on Finex or other exchange(s). This is not the case!! The coins haven't moved out of the address they were sent to  ----- > https://blockchain.info/address/1L2JsXHPMYuAa9ugvHGLwkdstCPUDemNCf

Could the fall have been due to dumping precipitated by insider info..? yes. Were the hacked Bitstamp coins dumped..? no. Can the coins be dumped..? not easily and definitely not in a way that is going to crash the market further.

So just stop... please... thanks already...


*UPDATE: As of  2015-01-07 09:00:48 coins are being moved out of this address.

184.679012 BTC
8328a2ab8d4d22f8a098c8fa5a113a4a77c708c7d2c8fd358dd0cf0633b1edad

45.8785978 BTC
d41cfbc62295217d85a75c17b8860a6ad2e9b8871a6502b5980932a855792191

434.67890123 BTC
e48a2be73401a9daf8e560e2d38702fbefe647dbf08d96c0b532f0d6cb92d7fc

641.40329352 BTC
3b3f41f7ded78c4f2e18f5decc80f311e23dc9456b9cb387f618925c94c910fd2015

577.04332353 BTC
7270d303e58506d7199f9ebf1895fc46d0d0f1111caccb3bda8452974950817a


UPDATE 2: Aaaaaand... they're gone

When have people ever listened to reason and logic in regards to Bitcoin?

No one say the price crash because of the stolen coin.

sure, alot of people on reddit etc.

There are also people on this forum who say that.

Here is an example of someone saying that:

I saw a thread somewhere here saying that but maybe the price dropped because people anticipated that it will drop after the hacker sells and decided to sell maybe. Just speculating.

Ok, I misunderstood the topic.
Still, he is saying it dropped because of the news, and even that is wrong.

Price dropped because all the Bitstamp coins were dumped.

Nope.  The Bitstamp price drop hasn't even happened yet. This looks bad.

if so, the question is:  is the dump over?

I was trying to help OP.

Is this address published by any official announcement of Bitstamp ?

the coins can be dumped incredibly easy

what makes you think they can't ?

They can't be dumped on the open market. It's hard to find a 5M worth buyer or sell this much in fractions off market too. (off market deals do not directly influence the public markets)

In reality, these coins don't worth much.

never say never...or something like that  ;D


@ medialab101: what do you expect? people also invest in Paycoin/Gawminer and believe someone can double their money in 24 hours.  ::)

Moving/mixing this much is very hard. The available mixers are not bulletproof either and usually have relatively low volumes. The comment I replied to stated that dumping is incredibly easy, which is not true.

forget i asked, ill just reiterate they can be dumped incredibly easy and will be

More than half of ppl here cannot think above ejunior highschool level here anyways. So its kinda pointless.
Man these brainless btc ppl wonder how they got in the forst place.
Gonto college or sehing instead get a loan not btc

Mixers don't work well (especially for large amounts) and are being de-annonymized. You need to transfer to an exchange to change to altcoins and those coins can also be marked and tracked. Localbitcoins is an option but will leave a trail and requires meeting in person or bank details. Shady deals are possible but difficult to arrange and now that the whole world knows the Bitstamp coins are out there it would be quite difficult to move big blocks of them in this way without raising red flags. So tell me exactly, how are they going to dump these coins on the market?

 :D truer words never were spoken.

Is it possible to send the coin to exchange and buy some darkcoin. And the use darksend to mixed the coin (very little amount). And the convert to bitcoin again ?

I think this make people very difficult to trace that. (of course not 100% impossible)

He can buy 18K BTC worth of darkcoin, run it through 50 addresses, use it to buy 18k BTC worth of carrots in california, truck them to florida, sell those for oranges, truck those to New York and sell those for doge and we'll STILL know where the funds are.

if Karpeles can launder 750,000 bitcoins, it can be done.

Really! So, bitcoins were stolen starting on 2015-01-04 02:26:20 to most recently 2015-01-06 19:00:13, ~6 hours ago, eh? Excuse me while I go and place another Monarch order over at BFL, for me so gullible. Fuck it! Me goin' hedge my bet and order from EMIC as well just in case one or the other is a day or two late in making their delivery to me.

All those coins were off-blockchain and the database that should match those internal address with the blockchain was tampered with. That's why we haven't been able to follow those coins. Although the 200,000 that were 'found' was due to Karpeles displaying proof of solvency several years back by signing a public address that he controlled. The community saw that those 200,000 coins were linked back to that address. So yeah, on-blockchain transactions are difficult to obfuscate.

As Bitstamp stated on several public channels and in emails to clients, they no longer control the deposit address and they advise people to STOP SENDING BITCOINS THERE!! Some people just haven't gotten that message yet. Also, some mining operations do auto deposit, etc...

Exactly! That's why every satoshi of the 25K BTC stolen from allinvain was returned to him thanks to a similar tracking system you just described: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=16457.0

Rumor has it that the BTC that Tom Williams stole four years ago is going to be found and returned next week.

The Mt Gox stolen coins is a different story. Investigators are combing through Mark Karpele's apple pie recipe books to see if he stored the passwords in its margins.

http://www.lovefromtheoven.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/pie-and-apple-pie-cookbooks1-700x466.jpg

is it a blockchain.info wallet? if so could blockchain confiscate it and give it back to bitstamp?

Could hacking be the new money laundering? Hell, it's even a tax right off. One doesn't even have to bother with paying insurance premiums, for that would only bring in another set of eyes to look over the books if/when such were/is implemented.

Hopefully for sanity's sake, it is not and the are doing Bitcoin the hard way. It is an interesting question though if the Bitcoin core team could develop a "Banned list" that is issued to the accepting nodes and refuses to transfer coins from banned accounts though.

How do you get/create/buy/sell coins off-blockchain?

No multisig?

Every time you send Bitcoins to an exchange you in effect no longer have any Bitcoin. What you have are numbers in a database and a promise that Bitcoin will be returned to you when you request them. Those numbers in the database are off-blockchain transactions of 'Bitcoin'

Why? That is a big security flaw. A ledger is a ledger is a ledger. Is this true for all cryptos?

Yes, this is true of all cryptos. There are only a few online services that actually let you control your own coins. Blockchain.info is the most well-know and I think maybe Coinkite and Greenaddress? That's why you see people in the forums always telling people to keep their coins offline in cold storage and not on exchanges.

Well any exchange that allows off-blockchain, IMO, is a scamhive. Exchanges need to be eliminated from the swap process.

Lol.

FUD seems to rule short term, but as the fiat price has born out, not over the long term.

Come on, wise up.  If they have other coins they can sell those and still be long coins...  No need to sell these ones yet.

I am sorry I don't understand how the tracking system work.

Let say the thief send 5 BTC to a new address , then use shapeshift convert the coin to darkcoin. Assume he hide his IP during the whole process
How to trace to the thief diectly??
just a curious noob question

Hey, have you guys heard the news? The price is tanking because of all those dumped Bitstamp coins. lol

I guess people see that coins are stolen and sell in anticipation of a dump by the thief.

True..the price was already falling b4 this incident happened.!! lol only after it BTC became stable.! :P

Omg what did I miss now :/

Not much. The price is dropping like a rock because some thief is selling all the Bitstamp coins. ROFL

I thought it was because of all those BFL Monarch bitcoin miners that are about to go online, thus increasing the difficulty.

The price crash could be because people think the coins might get dumped.

Everybody is talking about the price crash of Bitcoin because of the Bitstamp hack, and I am just sitting here mastur ... ahm ... looking at the price going up again ...

No, it's actually going down. Your screen just isn't refreshing fast enough.  :D

Magicman420?

Wait... Magic. + man, and men are know to wear Tuxedo's. + 420.... $4.20... the price of a Frappuccino!!!

MagicalTux... is that you!!

OK... here they go...

Being moved out of the address they were sent to...

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140927224455/disney/images/9/98/Popcorn.gif

https://blockchain.info/address/1L2JsXHPMYuAa9ugvHGLwkdstCPUDemNCf

Epic!

Wondering who'll follow them all ;D

That's hacker address ???
Still confuse about the impact bit stamp hacked to bit coin price ???

That is the address the coins were consolidated in after the hack.

The practical implications of this are that there are now 18,000+ BTC that the market has to absorb which could bring down price.

However, these coins can't be sold on an exchange because they are marked and that would identify the hacker.

Also, Bitstamp is now short 18,000+ coins which they may need to buy on the open market which could cause the price to increase.

And finally, Coinbase and others were using Bitstamp to place their orders. Now that Bitstamp is down their volume will be shifted onto other exchanges temporarily increasing the price (This is what probably caused the rise 12 hours ago).

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nkFz6I1Lh2g/hqdefault.jpg
"I will follow them, wherever they may go..."

Bitstamp won't have to buy bitcoins on the open or any other market. Their reserves are well-stocked. In fact, probably the latest bitcoin wallet address belongs to them, if not 5 of the top 10.

Yeah, the loss only represents 10% of their total and they could just carry on the way they are with no problems... However, if they don't have 5 mil+ of surplus coins laying around then they will be running a fractional reserve which means no one is going to trust them again. Their last audit was about a year ago so after they are back up and running there are going to be calls for them to prove their reserves and to give details of the hack.

I very much doubt it. We are talking about $5 mil worth of BTC here. The whole DarkCoin market is about $8.

Plus, I think the OP's point was that the stolen coins have not moved - not that they cannot be sold. It would be interesting to monitor this address and see when the coins start being spent.

See update, coins are moving now.

This is the key to successful speculation - anticipate the anticipators.

Ok I was wrong that the price was caused by the hacked bitcoin getting dumped but have anybody seen the movement just about 10 minutes ago? It was all green and now going to red with small amounts being transferred out portion by portion.

Nah, that's what makes me see the market as totally irrational, when they were at bitstamp, any or all of them could be sold at the drop of a hat, they might have been whale coins that were about to be dumped, we don't know, but here they are, out on the blockchain, nominally an hour away from being able to be traded again, and everyone is losing their minds that they are "available to dump". They were more freaking available to dump when they were where they were supposed to be.

they on the omve, only 4100 left - https://blockchain.info/address/1L2JsXHPMYuAa9ugvHGLwkdstCPUDemNCf

I tend to agree with your opinion.

*sigh* this is so true.

150 coins left

I think the thief will try to cash out some of the coin (small proportion) through Alt-coin exchange
That's why he/she split the coin.

would you not do the same? who will exchange 19K BTC at once? the hacker will sell parts.

what is somehow funny is that other exchanger will fulfill the transaction.

Stolen funds are processed without any question. This is money laundering which is possible through Bitcoin.

When a criminal activity(hacking in this case) generates substantial profits, the individual or group involved must find a way to control the funds without attracting attention to the underlying activity or the persons involved.

Criminals do this by disguising the sources, changing the form, or moving the funds to a place where they are less likely to attract attention.

secondary address's are now being divided

https://blockchain.info/address/1Gdcsz1tGEzq64aeMPvgAsqftuAt3NyTyc

I know it is possible , but some people still think they can trace that thief.

I think he will start form the smallest amount address 1EtH88P5feywPJE1nyrjggd41JeCuEeKNi

Cash out some of the coin

The funny thing is that the hack happened during a dramatic price fall

The message given by exchange: If you dare to short the bitcoin massively, your coins will be hacked on exchange ;D

And it actually worked. Price is going up since the hack. ;)

They can to a point but I don't know why they would want to. They haven't been able to successfully do anything about a theft here by tracing coins except for the Ozcoin hack and MtCocks confiscation. Ozcoin was the only case where something was done right. You could argue that they shouldn't have done it. When MtGox confiscated stolen coins that's only because Gox was a bigger thief.

Can one of you geniuses tell me why this isn't effecting the market at all. An exchange goes down without so much as a hiccup. No panic selling, no day traders manipulating the market, no people pissed off because their money was frozen and cashing out everywhere else - nothing. Could it be because the market price is phoney and manipulated anyway?

Price went down from 315 to 255 the day before bitstamp went offline and you think this is not related ? Some people knew it, before anyone and dumped hard. The news came after, and market is just waiting bitstamp to be live again.

So, they knew, that Bitstamp was hacked before the coins were moved?
Seems plausible ::)

So your answer is that the price dropped because Bitstamp was hacked. Where have I heard that before?

If the problem was one compromised wallet, why is the hole web shut down?
There must be pro technician working at B.stamp.

Why cant we access our own account at least?

This is suspect.

Hopefully for sanity's sake, you will search more and openly muse less. Here's a concise summary of the conclusion every other time someone floats this idea before thinking it through:

A Bad Idea

If they were honest, they would have allowed you to withdraw your funds from cold wallet and then carry on the investigation. They are locking u in. That means something is fishy.

Not claiming genius, but I can speculate. Perhaps Bitcoin has in the last year shed all those who don't understand its long term prospects, and we are left with a population of those wise enough to see that this event does not affect anything in the long term.

no. that means that they have to investigate for bugs and causes and solve it, avoiding more losses of your bitcoins

I wasn't really thinking about wise people. I was talking more about day traders and speculators.  ;D

What do day traders care? Up, down, doesn't matter to them as long as its changing.

I wouldn't expect them to care but I would expect them to react.

Sure - price goes down, a handful of orders in their 'buying' ladder get filled.
They take the BTC and enter a bunch of new sell orders in their selling ladder.
Price goes up, a handful of orders in their selling ladder get filled.
They take the proceeds, enter a bunch new orders in their buying ladder.
...

What has that got to do with a net change in Bitcoin adoption?

The dip has nothing to do with bitstamp, but it's really Interesting timing on the Bitstamp hack, almost like it was timed to remind investors how sketchy and unsafe Bitcoin is and how there is certainly no escape from tainted markets in crypto.

The ordinary uneducated people will be pointing fingers on how bitcoin is unsecure and dangerous investment

I don't know what it has to do with Bitcoin adoption. I thought we were talking about price shifts?

this is fact!
when  have no instruction,  is natural  condemn what  does not understand

The expectation that day traders would likely have is that once bitstamp opens back up people will want to sell their bitcoin for fiat in mass. This is actually counter-intuitive because they would probably be able to withdraw bitcoin faster then they can withdraw fiat 

I would agree that people with accounts elsewhere will very likely withdraw bitcoins. Those people that don't have an account elsewhere or the ability to get one will need to withdraw fiat. It's going to be fun to watch this unfold.

how can it be done in 4 days as they claim? it is impossible to read all the code's lines, to realize where the bug is and then to fix it +test.
also, they are moving the website to other server. that means setup, firewalls and so on...

Why would it? The total number of bitcoins hasn't increased significantly, so their price would not fall due to inflation. The customers of Bitstamp cannot dump their holdings of bitcoins in a panic, because their accounts are frozen. The hacker cannot cash in in a hurry, because he will be tracked and will crash the market, losing the value of most of what he has stolen.

Yes, the hacker will eventually have to cash in, which would put a downward pressure on the price. (It would also probably cause wild altcoin fluctuations relative to the price of bitcoins.) However, Bitstamp also has to recover the missing coins from their own funds, in order to reimburse their customers, which would put an upward pressure on the price.

All in all, the two would mostly cancel each other in the long run (and would it be irony of Bitstamp ends up buying back the stolen coins from the thief, without realizing it), so the price fluctuations would be caused mostly by speculators and not by the theft.

The hacker will probably sell large amounts of stolen coins via Localbitcoins at a discount, but this will not impact the exchange-quoted price directly and immediately. Plus, it's much riskier for him, so it probably won't happen any time soon.

That's what I'm talking about. I would think speculators could use this as an opportunity.

bistamp eta long way off
still no sign of them opening up

I dont know completely how the wallets and addresses are controlled. But just a thought of me.

If I was using blockchain.info , then I can download my private key to import it to my offline wallet. I dont understand the term - "BitStamp no more controls that address" - Either the attacker stole the bitcoins by inserting malicious code or doing some sql or php query stuffs or getting access to the wallet. Even if he have the private key to that address, still the bitstamp will also have the private key with them unless the hacker gets physical access to their computer or whatever and destroys everything. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You are right. That is why the hackers put in such high transaction fees into the transaction, so miners would process them pretty fast.

if I remember well,
they have talked about reopening on
12 January ...

or I remember wrong?

no one have info about reopening date?

just look here:
https://twitter.com/Bitstamp
They said 24-48 h. But after testing the system they started from anew.

All the while they are holding their clients money hostage. How would you feel if you had rent to pay and your bank told you they had to fix their software before you could withdraw your money? I bet you'd be looking for another bank pretty damn quick. It's funny how people tolerate excuses in Bitcoinland that would never be tolerated in the real world. I guess people don't really see Bitcoin as money.

Bitstamp is not a bank. If their customers didn't use it like a bank they wouldn't have had all those coins in their hot wallet and it would have been a much smaller loss.

AA says is better than me.

http://youtu.be/1DG98FH1qlo?t=35m (http://youtu.be/1DG98FH1qlo?t=35m)

I know it's not a bank but the concept is the same. Call it an investment brokerage if that makes you happy. If the brokerage ever held my money without allowing me access to it and did not get my permission beforehand they would never see another deposit from me.

it doesnt matter one bit ,if they cant secure a hot  wallet properly they should not be in the business of holding hundreds of millions of dollars of btc for their community,the excuse/result would be the exact same if the cold wallet got "hacked" too  and everything was gone .........

this "hacked" bullshit get thrown around way too much and too easily  with no more or less no reprecussions to whoever was in charge and either did it or let it happen ........

That's the kind of reaction I would expect to see in the RL if an entity was holding my money hostage but for some reason in Bitcoinland it's "all good". I don't get that. We sit and brainstorm constantly about furthering mass adoption and can't understand why it's not happening. Ummm, I think I understand why. lol

The first sentence in the Bitcoin white paper.

"Abstract.
A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a
financial institution."

Pretty clear to me.

Straw man

This method has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged emotional issues where a fiery, entertaining "battle" and the defeat of an "enemy" may be more valued than critical thinking or understanding both sides of the issue.

bitstamp got goxxed by the fat-man:

http://www.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/unbenanntjc9qg7pt8i.png (http://www.fotos-hochladen.net)

 :D

I like how he's working in some excuses for when next hauled over the coals about gox.

Time passes, no updates. My faith is starting to wain.

Banks have money stolen from them all the time, granted it is not $5 million worth at a time, however they do get scammed. Their hot wallet was compromised one time over 3 years and they were able to manage their hot wallet in a way that allowed them to have the entire hot wallet stolen and still be able to cover customer deposits.

Compare this to gox who was almost hacked on a regular basis