Bitcoin Forum

An Open Letter to the Administrators of Bitcointalk.org,

As everyone is well aware - this particular board has recently become littered with advertisements for 'Ponzi Schemes', which I can't but think is not a positive thing for this forum, the bitcointalk community, or the digital currency industry as a whole.

Bitcointalk.org has certainly established itself as a leading source for the discussion, collaboration, and innovation within the digital currency arena. I have learned a great deal here, and I applaud theymos, ckolivas, malevolent, and the other admins of this site for creating this community and working so hard to keep it running and growing.

With that said; I find it disheartening, yet not surprising, that these posts have begun to spark up like wildfire, very similar to the Alt-coin Rush of 2014. Let's not forget how many of those very Alt-coins which were promoted here turned out to be scams in and of themselves.

While I am all for freedom of speech and expression, and I certainly am not a fan of censorship, I feel that clearly advertising 'Ponzis' on this forum, and this being tolerated, cannot be good for the Bitcointalk community in the long run.

We can all agree - Bitcoin and crytpo-currencies have had enough of bad press, and it is only a matter of time before a spotlight get's thrown on this particular aspect of how bitcoins can be used for nefarious purposes, or at the very least these posts will be used as additional ammunition by the anti-bitcoin groups to further push Bitcoin down.

A Ponzi scheme by definition, is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the operator. Operators of Ponzi schemes usually entice new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent. Taken from Wikipedia.org

So the question I ask is do these advertisements, clearly and openly advertising ponzi schemes, have a place here? If so, where will the line be drawn? Will users openly be able to post ads for narcotics, or other illegal items such as weapons for sale in the Marketplace?

Again, I don't think this comes down to censorship. Users of Bitcoin can use their bitcoins to buy whatever they please as long as it doesn't harm other people. But Ponzi's are designed in nature to harm other people. To steal their money. To defraud investors.

With that said, I am respectfully asking that this issue be considered by the Bitcointalk staff and owners; and for thought to be given as to whether these types of services and programs should really have a home here in the Gambling section of Bitcointalk.org.

I certainly welcome comments and thoughts on this issue.

Strato

A lot of people have raised this issue on bitcointalk. At the end, I think it all comes down to a point when people stop investing in these ponzis and they stop happening because owners get bored now. 

I understand your situation however it they make Ponzi schemes illegal then won't that make gambling illegall all together?

Both situations the person is gambling and might lose money.

You didn't seem to understand his point.
If you look at the altcoins trend, a lot of them were created just as a scam. Thats somewhat the same case with ponzis. When they don't profit enough from the 5%, they resort to just keeping or stealing the biggest deposit that is made, and start over.

The admins suspect people have brain and notibly made gambling section for them ponzis dont know what more u want them to sit and ban each one ? Its a game, sometimes u win sometimes u loose. ! enjoi

you are right
in gambling section now there are more ponzi sites than dice sites
I don't like it

The admins not going to do anything. They used to think ppl here have brains. If they really have then they shoult use it.

I agree ponzi's are a bad investment and people should not send their coins to them.  

But that is true for all gambling situations where the fun should offset the house edge.  The header for this section points out: Gambling and all "investments" that are so risky they might as well be gambling (HYIPs, pyramid schemes, etc.)  Which suggests the ponzi threads are in the right place.

If people would rather have fun risking their coins in a ponzi rather than in a dice site why shouldn't they?  The forum is dedicated to free expression and is not going to try and protect people from their own stupidity.  I don't think anyone can spend any time on here and not know that ponzi's are risky, heck people assert that all of bitcoin is a ponzi!

If you have not already, you may want to check the meta thread where a lot of comments like yours have been posted often drawing admin responses.

Good luck.

Well to address a few points:

1.) Ponzi Schemes are in fact illegal. Typically a business or site however would not advertise however the fact that it is in fact a Ponzi. I don't think however, from a legal standpoint, that calling it a ponzi up front eliminates the crime (which again just going by definition is the "intent" to commit fraud). Fraud is both a criminal offense as well as a civil crime in most if not all countries.

2.) The Alt-coin scam of 2014; which saw it's heyday during the spring and summer months did not openly admit to being just that; a long series of highly orchestrated scams which raked in uncountable amounts of money from unknowing and/or naive investors. Many of the coins advertised themselves as legitimate projects with "road-maps"; "development plans"; and "innovative features". In time what the outsiders learned was that these coins had no plan at all. Many were outright and deliberate fraud, with hidden pre-mines, ninja-code; and or viruses packaged neatly into the provided wallet or mining software.

These coins used this very forum, along with Twitter, Reddit, and Chatrooms as their launch vehicle. At the height of the scam era a new altcoin was appearing on major exchanges nearly every single day. While no direct proof exists- at least not publicly; there is no doubt in many peoples minds that this was not individual scam artists creating coins for a quick buck, but rather a highly planned scam orchestrated between the developers of these coins, a number of exchanges, and certain pool operators.

3.) As far as the admins not taking any sort of action or at the least giving their position on this issue; justifying these posts based on the statement: "people have brains" is simply not the point. The admins have a responsibility to at least state their policy regarding these posts. Ponzi's are-- Acts of Fraud. The admins have created a number of policies in the past; the most recent to come to mind is banning pool advertisements within ANN threads.

I am quite certain that if users began advertising drugs, weapons, or worse in the marketplace - the admins would stamp that out quickly by banning accounts.

In closing; my post was not meant to question whether or not people are intelligent or savvy enough to differentiate a good investment from a bad investment. It was simply to ask the question do Ponzi Schemes; and the advertising of such; have a place here on the Bitcointalk forum.

Strato

I also hate ponzis but it is truly up to the individual if they want to play or not. If there wasn't any money going into the ponzis then they would close.

Ponzi's are not gambling. These programs that are being advertised are as simple as this:

Send your coins here. You will get paid when the next person pays in.

Gaming sites, at least the legitimate and well known ones; use provably fair systems and other measures of control to create at least an umbrella of protection in terms of fairness to the player.

These sites are advertising "130% Returns Fast" Send Money Now! - I am sorry, but people ARE in fact going to fall for this.

There are already more Ponzi posts than traditional gaming posts (at least new posts).  With that said - are we to assume it's time to create a sub board under Marketplace called "Ponzi Schemes".  

Strato

I agree. I personally think that this is just a ponzi hype, and it will die down soon. (Hopefully)

It's up to people if they want to invest, they have brains, they know they are going to lose money. Just don't invest!

As explained in the "Unofficial list of (official) Bitcointalk.org rules, guidelines, FAQ (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=703657.0)"-thread, the staff doesn't moderate that section.

Even though Ponzi's are illegal in most parts of the world, we won't touch them because of this.

This is what I say to anyone who keeps trying to advocate regulation and censorship on anything that happens by accident or happens because other people are stupid: You can't regulate stupidity and incompetence

Some of the gambling sites at least try to follow the law. For example Satoshi Dice does not allow people with a US IP address to get their gambling addresses from their website and Prime Dice does not allow people with Australian IP addresses to gamble there. There are obviously very easy ways to get around these very loose restrictions, however they at least make an attempt.
I do not think any of the recent ponzi's have actually turned out to operate legitimately. AFAIK they all have ended up running away with their "players'" money
This is obviously a bad idea. The forum is very different from the miners as a whole. The forum is privately owned while the network represents bitcoin. If you owned a large mining farm then you could do this if you wanted to however it would not make any sense to do so because chances are, the miner that finds the next block will just confirm the transaction anyway.
IMO this is a different argument then simply free trade/market. This is the fact that we are seeing a rise in entities that, in the past have all ended up scamming.
AFAIK none of the ponzi games are employing instant TX scripts. Additionally the casino does not control the outcome of a poker game or a sporting event. A ponzi game can potentially manipulate the outcome. 
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=750507.msg10250009#msg10250009
Argument #5: Ponzi's arent entertainment
People have different opinions on what entertainment is. It may not be entertaining for you, but I'm sure its entertaining for others.[/quote]Agreed
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=750507.msg10250009#msg10250009
Argument #6: Ponzi's are scams because people will lose money
There will always be people who lose money on any gambling website. Otherwise the website would be losing money.
[/quote]It is not that people lose money in ponzis it is that people get scammed in ponzis. There is a big difference

Its the end users, issue not the forums. its gambling and people know it, it is not fraud because every single person that uses them knows whats going on. if people stop suing them then they will all die.  Again you cant babysit every one that ends up being scammed or complains later.

While your point is valid, you need to see the opposing side. Ponzi's are in a way gambling. Can they be profitable? Yes, ran by moral people, which is the only reason they are allowed. However, most all ponzi operators now a days scamming any investors which is a problem. So in my opinion, they need to be banned and disallowed.

I think all ponzis should be banned. The 'Games and rounds' board is messed up with ponzis. :(

@OP : Are you trying to advertise your Twitter account? Isn't advertising in posts agains forum rule unless approved?

   ~~MZ~~

A ponzi cant be run by moral people u little kid .... do you tie your shoes alone ?

Agreed; Ponzi's by their very nature leave the last man hanging - or last group of people. There is no incentive to keep it running whatsoever once payments have been placed into the site... The owner of the site can simply say sorry; you were last!

Ponzi's are not gambling by any definition I can find. They are a form of fraud. It's as simple as that.

Strato

A ponzi cant be run by moral people u little kid .... do you tie your shoes alone ?

I don't believe that is the case. Your signature has an advertisement for Bitmixer.io

And secondly placing my twitter account as a contact method is not an advertisement - at least not for any type of commerce - I don't sell anything on my Twitter Account.

Strato

Ponzi schemes should be removed due to the fact that newbs will fall trap to them(Including myself) and will lost a lot of money.. I lost over $500 on cryptodouble

Sorry for going off-topic: Advertising in signature is allowed as per the rules but advertising in posts aren't allowed. You don't want to sell anything on your Twitter account to call this as "ADVERTISEMENT".


Every ponzis are traps. You should be careful when investing, remeber "Don't invest more than you can afford to lose". While forums *should* remove these type of threads but it isn't forum's job to protect *you* from investing.

   ~~MZ~~

Yes you are correct. Your post is off topic and has nothing to do with the topic being discussed here.

Strato

Just bumping this post as there is still a lot of discussion regarding this topic within threads.

This post was originally in the Gambling Thread.  However it was moved to Meta- which is fine, but when it was moved it literally died instantly.

Hope the bump is not considered inappropriate.

Best,
 
Strato

I think all ponzis in the gambling section should be locked or deleted.

I actually think ponzis make the gambling section more exciting

And dangerous!

  -MZ

And they add too, and support the "scam" factor for Bitcoin.

Strato

This is just my personal opinion, but if a site tells you that its a ponzi, who cares? If you decide to gamble in a ponzi, knowing that its a ponzi, that is on you. In ponzi schemes, there is always a loser. Isn't that also true of any gambling games? The house/someone always has an edge, you put your money in hoping to win more, or you lose it. I see Ponzis as a strategy based game of chance. Now if its a company feigning legitimacy, and its actually a ponzi, thats a different story. But if a new site comes out called LukEPawnZ and it says its a ponzi scheme, if you don't like it, avoid it. Ponzis are no more risky than sending strangers online an unreversable currency.

SaltySpitoon, you are right! But I an afraid we might get into problems like this (http://rapsinews.com/news/20140211/270688354.html).

   -MZ

Technically isn't all online gambling illegal in the U.S/Russia/Others, so why not remove the gambling section all together?

Theres is a sliding scale of legal involvement in hosting content online. Bitcointalk has very minimal involvement in classified/service listings. It could probably get in trouble for accepting advertising payments from Ponzi sites, but if we aren't promoting the sites, and not collecting a fee on the listings, we have very different levels of legal involvements. (Think Ebay vs Craigslist) if you sell Crack on Ebay, Ebay gets in trouble, if you sell Crack on Craigslist, the authorities might subpoena information from Craigslist to go after the individuals, but Craigslist isn't on the hot seat. I dont recall if Ponzis have ever been advertised by the forum, but I believe there is a general disclaimer to check your jurisdiction before participating. Theymos is all over the legal stuff, and I in no way speak for him or the forums, this is just my interpretation on the matter.

I couldn't disagree.


I have quoted whole post, both links maybe helpful.


   -MZ

In the US, there is no federal law which expressly prohibits online gambling. However there are laws which deal with wire fraud and money laundering, etc.

Online gambling is legal in some states. Online sports betting as well in others.

Louisiana is one such state which has no laws regarding any types of online casinos. NJ allows poker and other games.

My point to this post was simply Ponzis by their very name alone are "Bad for Business".

GAMBLING

1. play games of chance for money; bet.
"she was fond of gambling on cards and horses"
synonyms:   bet, place/lay a bet on something, stake money on something, back the horses, game; informalplay the ponies
"he started to gamble more often"
bet (a sum of money) on a game of chance.
"he was gambling every penny he had on the spin of a wheel"

PONZI

Scam in which gullible public is enticed with the promise of very high returns in a very short time, but is based on paying off the early 'investors' from the cash from (hopefully ever increasing number of) new 'investors.' The whole structure collapses when the cash outflow exceeds the cash inflow. The originators of the scheme, however, usually disappear with large sums a few days before the crash. Named after Charles Ponzi (1882-1949), an Italian immigrant to the US who, during 1919-20 collected more than fifteen million dollars from some 40,000 eager people by promising to double their investment in 90 days. See also pyramid scheme.

Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/Ponzi-scheme.html#ixzz3QwcqN4M9

Strato

If you use your brqin, you won't fall for it. If you do then you are greedy and it's your fault. Anybody can adiverse anything as long as it's not against forum rules

He(we) is(are) trying to change the forum's rule as it maybe against other general rules.

   -MZ

Yeah I know the online gambling laws are vague and when drafted in 2006 I believe, they werent meant to ban online gaming, but court justices have cited those laws to prosecute online gambling sites. Satoshi dice bans US IPs for that reason. That said, I agree with you, Ponzi scams are no good, the problem is ponzi scams don't advertise that they are ponzi schemes, think Pirate@40.  The Ponzi schemes that come out and say they are ponzi schemes are a known gamble, but instead of a house that always wins like a poker/dice site, the first people in a ponzi are the house. In my opinion people should be able to gamble and lose their money however they want, as long as the gamble isnt misrepresented. A ponzi operator that announces the fact that they are a ponzi scheme I think is fair warning.

All of that aside, I highly doubt the forum rules will change in this regard. Bitcoin is about financial freedom, we arent here to protect your money, we are here to let you discuss Bitcoin etc. Try paypal if you want more security.

bitcointalk should not allow any cloudmining or gambling advertisments. Just hardware manufactors/sellers. It's easy as that. Problem solved.

Wrong!
Hardware manufacturers and sellers scammed too. As an example...Have you never heard of BFL?

let's add BFL, some say BA and also Alpha Tech.