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Ok, I'm hoping I don't get hate or neg trust this, but all scams start with something similar to this. I've been a member of PD for 1.5 years and as all old players know, Stunna is a sketchy and shady administrator. It's not just a feeling that because I lose it's a scam. Hell, I've played on PD for 1.5 years nearly every day. This is a trend I have been seeing. I play on other sites such as JD, PRC, SafeDice, BitDice, etc. and PD is something...special. I mean a small little page of some numbers (verification page) doesn't prove much. Dicebitco.in proved that statement to be true. I am taking a community initiative to do this, since I strongly believe there is something Stunna is hiding from us.

I decided to finally do this because since the launch of PD3, the site seems even more rigged. Not heavily, but rather sneakily. Proof isn't easy to get, so I'd rather just take the community involved and see what they have to say. Here is just one of my many screenshots to come of me losing. Remember I'm not butthurt, but rather am trying to do the community a favor:

http://i.gyazo.com/c934f6d25d9ad8f1920a4be0f4cf2283.png

http://prntscr.com/6i699l

http://prntscr.com/6jzutm

http://gyazo.com/948d0bfefe3921ff6812a21c4c202c7f

http://prntscr.com/6hylyy

https://i.imgur.com/zSR7bdy.png

http://prntscr.com/6i3cb6

http://prntscr.com/6i69lq

^^ The above was collected within 24 hours

If you think Stunna has something sneaky going on in the back, please post your opinions! Oh, and please do not post if you aren't a long-time member of Primedice, or play there only occasionally. I'm looking for players who have spent 100+ hours on the site and know it full well.

I think it's about time the community's feedback proves something.

EDIT 2: I am not saying that that loss streak is proof. I am saying it's an example to the scams that are going on.

Nothing wrong with the bets, just someone getting butthurt and can't take the loss.

Honestly who knows if its rigged or not. The problem is its impossible to get enough evidence to prove if its rigged or not because the chances are you can usually go on a huge losing streak as below.

Who knows? Maybe the sites use some algorithm that detects martingale players to clean them out. Either way its very difficult to prove.

Don't martingale, and if you do. Just do it across multiple dice sites and then you will know for sure if its a legit losing streak or you were being cheated.

all these bets you had made on 2.5X so that is normal thing in any gambling, sometime you win and sometime you lose,
PD has provably fair system so you can verify with system each bet status, so if you had bad day and losing streak it does not mean that site is scam and not fair. at other dice site once i had 19 losing streak with 2X but these are cheating.

You can verify every single bet to ensure that Primedice is not skipping nonce and the server seed checks out. The house pretty much have no chance to cheat if you do it this way. The problem here is you don't realised the house edge makes a difference, I have seen more than 20 lose streak at various dice sites and none of them is cheating. You are going to lose your bankroll eventually with martingale due to varience.

agreed with you i had 16 winning streak on Primedice, gambling is all about good and bad luck,
Primedice has provably fair system and every single bet can be verified with that verification.
so that behavior is strange after losing streak.

Tossing out accusations like that without having a shred of evidence is a really but thing to do...
If you had something to show for ok but this? Just a bad streak.

Do you notice any change in your server seed or client seed?
Do you notice any skipping of nonce?
Do you notice any mismatch of the hashes and the rolled numbers?

If the answers are all "no", then you were just having a bad luck.

If PD is rigged, there won't be so much 100 Bitcoins club members on PD, It's always a question of PD's fairness, but PD is still the most popular and accepted dice site in the community.

Wrong, most people wouldn't bother to verify the bet since the page for verification method is very confusing and no tool exist to easily do it. A simple google would give you this. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=948965.0. Primedice, however, is pretty open about their fairness and there are lots of script to verify the bets.

To be honest, this isn't true. Provably fair mechanisms and their verifiers prove everything if you understand how to use them. (https://thebitcoinstrip.com/blog/what-does-provably-fair-mean.html) With a legitimate provably fair system implemented, it is impossible for the casino to cheat.

What you are likely seeing is just variance. With a tiny 1% house edge, massive swings are far from uncommon. Make enough bets, and you will eventually have a massive losing streak. Remember that there are absolutely no patters whatsoever in randomness -- every single bet is independent of the last, and this is why many betting systems are flawed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy).

If the casino has a legitimate provably fair mechanism, it is unfair to say it is rigged. I haven't actually had a look at the system used myself, but I assume someone else would have by now. If that maths is right, then it's probably not a scam (in telling outcome of bets, at least -- the site could still run with your deposits).

If Primedice were rigged, the exploit Hufflepuff used wouldn't have worked. The seeds are exactly the same as they should be. I recommend you to check and confirm the seeds. It was most likely your own fault for losses inflicted.

999Dice is a unique case because of the odd way that the provably fair system worked. You had to make a manual request before your bet in order to see the seed; if you didn't, then you'll just have to believe the casino. No other sites that I'm aware of do this.

I can agree or disagree with you because I have no evidence to back it up. However, I remember having a big loss streak on 66% a few minutes after I deposited which ended resulting in a -0.56 profit. My account is still saying at -0.56 loss which is sad. I started using other dice sites like dadice because of their faucet levels. My primedice faucet is at 2.7k right now after 2 months and my dadice faucet is at 4k after a few days! I recommend you trying out new dice sites and then compare it to primedice to see which one you like better. Cheers!

Pretty much this to be honest. Before the invention of bitcoin, i dont recall anywhere online where i could gamble and verify i haven't been cheated. Bitcoin gambling is by no means perfect, but a massive improvement on what we've been used to as gamblers.

Thats true. Here is the thing, real life casinos have been existing for a long time where you can play roulette and watch it spin, you knew it wasnt rigged even some players abused the roulettes because they werent perfect but in the end the casinos would still win, thats the thing the casinos always win, its a fact they dont need to be rigged to win because all the casinos are rigged in a way, the house edge. Honestly if you wanted to prove they are rigged that pic you posted is definitely not enough, if you posted a pic of like a 50 lose streak on 50% it would have been a strong proof.

First, the loss streak doesn't show the site is rigged.
Plus, it is not rare to lose 11 2.5x bets in a row. I have personally had a 14 2x bets streak and a few more 11 or 12 2x streak.

BTW, on JD, the longest winning streak at 49.5% is 30 and the longest losing streak is 32.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=610339.msg7060900#msg7060900

EDIT: fixed a stupid typo.

Another thing that happens if one casino is rigged is that you may be able to exploit it. Like for example if they are predicting your patterns, change them outpredict their predictions?

i dont think PrimeDice got some magic hidden in the back.. there are so many 100BTC club members (100BTC+ in profit) and ofcourse the famous HufflePuff winning 2000BTC+, so i think PD is fair on their players..

This whole topic seems pointless to me. I wonder how many replies it would have gotten if signature campaigns didn't exist...

It has been said thousands of times already, HufflePuff was using an exploit, cheating, he wasnt lucky.

You call scam to the oldest bitcoin dice site after a year and a half of playing there everyday lol Why so soon?

Firstly sorry you have had a run of bad luck but i am afraid when gambling this is what happens and there is only one thing you can do about it and that is obviously stop playing.

There is no need for this thread if it was truly rigged it would not be one on the biggest and longest standing dice games would it people would just not play it that is fact you are actually the first hate i have seen towards it if i am honest.

If i was you i would stop playing all sites.

i dont know much about gambling but by any chance.......... can they fake the verification process?

There are some easy-to-use external verifiers such as http://dicesites.com/primedice/verifier and http://rgbkey.github.io/verify/PrimeDice/.
Or you can calculator the sha512 yourself according to the scheme in https://primedice.com/verify.

That's true, I don't verify every one of my roll either but PD is fair and I trust this site, I haven't been too lucky there but that doesn't mean that the site is rigged.

Btw ranochigo Nice signature. :)

For primedice, not possible as they gives you the formula for the calculation of results. If they don't match up, people would definitely suspect. Most verifiers are open sourced therefore, the manipulation of results cannot happen unless everyone don't check the code of the verifier.
Hehe thanks. Muhammed Zakir helped me with it.

I see. Nice :)

provably fair verifier cant be faked and you can always win on a dice sites, someone will win alot and someone may bust all of their earnings, it is common, no one will be making a gambling sites if the house couldnt get profit, and stunna is not sketchy or shady because he always answer his customer well when they needed help

Only 11 losses in a row? I've seen people with 20+, who also came here and started the same conversation about it being rigged. I played there and lost just like you, but I have no proof of scam, so I keep my mouth shut. You could learn something from me. ;)

It's hard to lose so much money, I know that feelings. But that is nothing with the PD, you should stop blaming others instead of your bad luck. Opening fire to a most popular and well trusted site is nothing but wasting your times.

Anyway, let's see if Stunna would response to this.

I trust Primedice, but i seem to have more luck on other sites :)
Don't know if primedice is rigged, but it is definetely possible, nothing is 100% proof

Someone knows what is up. I'm not saying it's 100% rigged. I'm saying, there is even a smarter system going on there in the back. I've been playing here longer than most of you have and it's a trend I've been seeing. The stuff you guys are saying doesn't prove a thing. Stunna isn't trusted and that's a fact. If you trust him you either only played there a couple times, or give out trust too easily. You can tell the type of person someone is just by how they talk.

aren't they all rigged. I prefer gambling on a live event like sports or btc price as software games can be easily rigged.

"The I lost ten times in a row so this website is rigged thread"

But seriously, this type of accusation is 100% baseless and disrespectful. Provably fair exists for a reason, I strongly recommend cease stop gambling forever if you cannot handle variance. You do realize Primedice paid out a single individual 2400-2500 coins which he won over a period of months, if we had intentions to rig bets wouldn't we have gone after him not your bitcent bets? Recently a user turned 0.05 to 175 coins (seriously) and after losing 20-30 coins or so he claimed the website was rigged for a brief period of time. If these claims aren't unfair I don't know what is. Primedice is currently taking in around 90% week over week of all dicing volume, there is simply no incentive for us to cheat when we have a house edge. You would be hard-pressed to find a more trustworthy gaming option in all of bitcoin.

Learn how provable fairness works and verify your bets. I'm not going to waste more time in the future defending against these types of accusations, we've proven our trustworthiness and have put in as perfect of a system as possible to let users verify fairness.

There are just so many points to attack your argument from and I simply don't have the time. With all due respect, you need to look at the facts, verify your bets, and lock this blind accusation thread.

----------------

Instead of reading my redundant argument, mathematically prove the bets were fair:

http://dicesites.com/provably-fair

http://primedice.com/verify


Thanks

Hey Stunna,

I'm doing my best to stay professional here. We know the facts: there's a house edge, you get alot of volume, but also all players hit weird streaks much more and weirdly often than other websites. That's a fact. As Ryan said, the provably fair system doesn't "100%" prove it to be fair.

Another weird suspicion is how Primedice 3 took almost half year to come out with. I remember PD3 being talked about in early January 2014 actually. Nothing changed except tips and the layout. The rolls also got slower. I think that's it. So, what took you guys so long? Just making the new layout? I don't think so, I think you kept delaying and delaying because of my accusation. Something's changed and I know it.

I told you, I lose on Primedice almost everyday. I'll keep uploading screenshots day after day to prove something. I'm still waiting for someone to prove this right, but you're smart enough to hide it well.

Don't get me wrong, I've seen tons of threads like the "lost 1 btc, PD is rigged". This is something I'm seeing overtime.

If I could prove that PD is a scam the same way that DiceBit got caught, then PD would be shutdown already. But you made it sneakier so there's no valid way to prove me right besides the crazy amount of loss streaks.

You've clearly completely ignored my post and have absolutely no understanding of provable fairness. I'm done arguing here.

I think primedice is 100 percent legit from my experience. Its a gambling site I don't understand why people get mad when they loose its going to happen that's why they call it gambling.

You sound like a crazy conspiracist. I'm sure if PD did something sketch, you'd have found something by now since it seems like you have invested a lot of time into proving Stunna is a operating a cheat website.

You probably have seen a lot of pd threads with people complaining that they've lost 1 BTC and it's rigged because they lost 12 in a row. That's because negative events tend to be remembered in a more accurate fashion than positive events. Also the majority of the big winners on PD rarely post a thread on bitcointalk because they don't feel the need to boast and probably don't want a bunch of people begging them for money. I could be bias on that though, since I'm up a few coins on PD and very few people know for those exact reasons.

Just another idiot that doesnt understand provably fair and how it works.

I don't see anything strange in the games,with  2.5x is not so difficult to have that situation

losing 16 in a row is normal even if you are betting on x2
thats why martinagle sucks

Now I'm really convinced you are butthurt after you lost. DiceBit skipped nonce which was obviously a scam. Primedice didnt skip nonce and everything checks out there are people who checks everything to make sure its fair. There are people who verify every single bet and no problems were found. If you have no evidence, please don't accuse Primedice of doing such things. You ain't gonna see happy faces on everyone when they come out of a real life casino.

You really could as well close this thread, OP. You won't get anywhere without proof and the longer you continue this discussion the more PD supporters will leave their positive opinions, so you'll be indirectly promoting them. I for instance had a bigger losing streak than you, but you can also find people with 10 or more wins in a row.

Haha you know what's funny. Added a dude on Skype and was also complaining about it being rigged. Keep in mind he is positive alot and recently won 2 BTC from 0.05. Never experienced losses but still says:

"cuz we all know its rigged af"

Isn't that funny?

you have to be kidding right? an 11 lose streak at %40.....
http://prntscr.com/6i64nn (http://prntscr.com/6i64nn)
sorry i dont ever count reds but 11 is nothing
that was from faucet btw

Primedice is very legit.
I have had winning streaks on PD that lasted over 7 days.  (~1.25 hours average playing per day)
You need to know how to start slow and control the risk.

No, you have nothing to prove it's legit. Maybe if Primedice was open source or something we could prove it right/wrong but we all know that's not happening.

The rolls are verifiable, so unless you can prove otherwise, there is no point in saying a site is rigged just because you were unlucky and you got huge loss streaks.

Also, if a site is unlucky for you, it's best to not visit it everyday and try something else. I feel lucky when I play at some sites, at others I don't feel too lucky and I lose but that doesn't mean that those sites are rigged.

I am going to keep playing on Primedice to prove my point.

Actually you should use "switch strategy", why did you always bet one side? You should change your luck actually. I used it and made a 40X profits about 6000 USD from that strategy.

Switch strategy: if you win, bet the same side next time, if you lose, bet the other side next time.

BTW, if you think PD is rigged, I have a good site for you, dadice. Just click my signature to play, no registration needed. Wish you have good luck. ;)

You're free to do as you wish. But Gamblers lose money in casinos around the world everyday, the only point it proves is that gambling is risky and should be done with only the money you can afford to lose.

I am afraid that this is the case here. If he would provide proof better than just screen with ten bets lose streak it would be huge. But for now lets settle with 'bad luck' fucked him over.

So you are saying Stunna should make it opensourced so many sites can copy their design and scam people? Primedice is already pretty transparent enough for people to believe that they aren't cheating. What's the use of opensourcing it since people can still be scammed selectively.
You have already proven that you are an ignorant person who don't listen to other explanations.

it is the only evidence if the sites is rigged or not, copy the server seed and yours before the start of the game and roll, after that you can verify it if the roll is actually match with he seed hash , if it doesnt match, the site is rigged, but if it match, the site is not rigged

The way he can't prove it is legit is the same way you can't prove it is rigged, just ask yourself if it was truly rigged would it have been going for all this time?

Would there not be multiple warning threads about it telling people to stay away giving proof how they have lost so much and it has to be rigged?

No there has been little to none of that so you need to chill out and take losses as they come as you would sure take the wins when they come, i see this all the time in poker as well, my advice to them is the same as i will give to you!

Don't gamble more than you can afford to lose and have fun :)

Read up on cryptography.

Read up on probability.

Then come back. This thread is a mess and I feel sorry for some of the degenerative gamblers that don't quite understand.

I dont think its "rigged"

If you continue to play, you will just see more and more unlucky events to happen.
It is not because Primedice is rigged, but it is how probability works. The more bets you play, the more occurrence you should see.

I really missed a thread that says that Primedice is rigged.
Like if there wasn't laying around this forum some random user that claims he had a godstreak until the day before he met Primedice and after that he lost the milion bitcoins he had in his pocket.  ::)

That's a pretty strong opening statement! Stunna is one of the most trusted gambling site operators. I've never heard of him being "sketchy and shady".


Done correctly, the "page of numbers" proves that the rolls are fair. Last I checked, PD was doing it correctly.


What happened at dicebitco.in is that their game was provably fair, which means that if they cheat, it is possible to prove it. They cheated, and because they were provably fair, it was proven that they were cheating. Not because "it feels different", or "I lost 10 in a row", but actual solid proof. That's what the "page of numbers" is for.


Luckily, we can do better than strong beliefs. We can do *proof*. Get to know that small page of numbers. It will be Stunna's downfall if he is cheating you. Screenshots of unlucky streaks prove nothing on their own.


You only want people to post if they agree with you? Wouldn't you rather discover the truth than be surrounded by people who agree with you even when you're wrong?


I agree. Proof is essential. Screenshots of losing streaks do not in any way constitute such proof. Get to know the page of numbers. Understand what it tells you. Use it to uncover the cheating. You'll be a hero! Unless there is no cheating, in which case at least you'll stop falsely accusing the innocent.


Or maybe they're just an example of your bad luck. Like you say, let's gather some *proof*!

Not that I read the whole thread, but such a small losing streak is so common that it's far from a proof of rig.

It's not proof. It's an example to maaaany streaks that occur far too often.

So get some proof.

As you said:


The only way to get proof is to play such that you can verify the provably fair rolls, and show that PD is cheating. So what are you waiting for? Why are you wasting your time (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=994876.msg10808172#msg10808172) making screenshots that don't prove anything, and never can prove anything?

I'm like a kid that sees a robber with a gun that nobody else sees. But I am too young to speak so I just do whatever I can to show everybody what's wrong. PD are the scammers and I'm sure of it. You can never be too confident in anything in the Internet, especially gambling, especially Bitcoin, especially with a shady admin. I'm sure that PD is scamming but I've yet to prove or show anything.

Dooglus, thank you for including that link in your post because that just told me who this guy is :P This is Candystripes, the notorious scammer. Candy was talking about the e-book he just wrote in Moneypot chat called "The Marvelous Masturbation". So this thread should be treated as a joke, as the person who started this thread is a scammer himself.

"PD is a scam!"


"I'm going to keep playing at PD to prove they're a scam!"


Thanks for the laugh, dude.  My recommendation though is to get a new hobby, preferably one that doesn't irritate and bewilder people.

It's totally the second one, I'm a king at lucky guessing.

I am not a big user of primedice but the few I have played I can say it is very normal.

If you had bad luck it is a pity but things as that may happen although they are not likely,but possible...

Yes this 100%. People do not realize that it is possible to lose 10 in a row on 1.01x, but it is not likely. Since it is a game of luck and chance no combination of bets will work for forever, they will all eventually fail and you will lose all your coins. People need to either stick with the loses or stop while they are ahead.

Even with statistical tools, it is hard to confidently make a conclusion.
In the second dataset, the sample p is just 0.48948 but the 99% CI is (0.4821, 0.4968) which still covers 0.495.

Exactly. Because something like this is just impossible to prove. They can cheat us and it would be next to impossible to tell or prove.


Just don't gamble then if you can't take the risk.

Yes, with just the outputs given and no details about the underlying algorithm, it is very difficult to prove if it is working as intended.
But, with the exact algorithm given (like in the provably fair sites), it is very easy to prove if it is working as intended.

That is why provable fairness is so important.

It allows us to detect cheating, and prove that we detected cheating.

If Ryan posted the algorithm and seeds that generated the rolls in his data we could immediately tell which of the two sets of rolls was from the rigged site.

dude, i think if PD is rigged, why they can paid someone who won over 2000 BTC? and i think primedice is one of provably fair gambling sites.

Because that player was cheating

You do realize that he had an unhashed server seed, he played over a period of months and won massive over a period of 20+ hours of consistent betting. If were were rigging his bets wouldn't we have instantly realized he was cheating instead of continuing to pay him out thousands of coins over months? Honestly, at this point I'm just convinced you're a troll, if you continue to bump this with nonsense posts I will leave you negative trust.

If a moderator sees this, I firmly believe this thread should be locked/deleted. If you follow along with the conversation it's clear OP is spreading illogical FUD. The entire community has weighed in, if bumbleBee ends up finding any piece of proof other than a screenshot of losing 10x in a row (after placing thousands of bets) he can post a new thread.

Stunna, don't be unprofesssional. My posts aren't nonsense, don't call them that. If you give me negative trust, it would do nothing but make you look bad. You still haven't answered why somehow, on Primedice people hit unbelievable loss streaks extremely often. Literally all my PD friends from 2013 to now can agree. I'm not a troll, if anything you are just posting to try and make PD look legit. This is more of a "community warning" to warn members to just use any other site. So far it's been doing well.

This thread is 100% valid. It's not FUD, or illogical. I'm not a troll, in fact your intelligence and way and handling problems is proving to me you aren't smart either. If one of the hotdog places near your house start pissing in your drinks how will you know? By common sense! You can't prove it, but it's quite obvious it's true.

Don't be unprofessional, deal with this the right way and answer my question. Why do so many users hit unbelievable streaks extremely often? Don't just say luck, I want a real answer. You're going to be caught soon and I know it.

First of all, 10x in a row hardly counts as an "unbelievable streak". And second of all, Primedice has around 4.4 billion bets, individual accounts such as yours were able to place thousands of bets in incredibly short periods of time. When you go to a casino and sit at the roulette table, how often can you place a new wager? The point is you can gamble for years without hitting a large streak as placing 10,000 individual bets at a casino table can take years of betting, meanwhile on primedice you can place over 100,000 bets in a single 24 hour period.

Also, I don't care about being "unprofessional" I care about being trustworthy and reliable. If posting "primedice is rigged" then posting screenshots of 10x loss streaks isn't slander/FUD I don't know what is.

Give this a read and all will be made clear: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Oh and by the way, your account has over 100% luck indicating that you've won more bets than you statistically should have. I recommend carefully reading over your arguments, contrast them with the facts and lock this thread.  I've finally said everything I wanted to say and will use all my will power to not reply beyond this point and grant you additional undeserved attention.

I got long streak once or twice but that's normal right? idk alot about provably fair

Also, the conversation is getting heated. Both of you calm down

First of all I would like to know your identity I.e your username on primedice. I don't know any old member of pd who claims that the site is rigged. The only people who call it rigged are the once who want to deliberately defame pd for the benefit of its competitors. I also have been on pd since last 1.5 years and I reply don't feel that the site is rigged.

The rolls are fine, they can be verified and they get verified correctly. Yes, people get many loosing streaks, but they equally also get winning streaks. I myself am in almost 0.8BTC profit and never had any issues with the site.

I don't know why you feel that the administrative team is sketchy, they are all nice and generous people. I don't think stunna is completely anonymous. He is kind of a pseudo anonymous guy and can be doxed easily.
Haters gonna hate.

People remember their loses, but sadly not all the winnings. I trust primedice 100%.

As i said before if you are going to post as proofs your loosing streaks at least post something incredibly difficult to happen like 40 loses in a row and then other 40 loses in a row in the same day or something like that, it still wouldnt be proof but it is something almost impossible. But posting losing streaks of 10 in a row? Come on man thats just trolling

I don't believe Primedice is rigged.
Primedice is the most popular dice site.
If the site is rigged, people would have found out by now.
I think it is more likely people blame their losses on the site.

I would suggest you to take some time to learn how "provably fair" works and verify all your bets one by one.
You will then either get a concrete proof for your "PD is rigged" argument or you will realize you actually just had some bad luck.

Holy shit dude, how can you be this fucking dense?  Selective hearing much?  The question has been answered multiple times and you keep ignoring it.  CHECK. YOUR. GODDAMN. BETS.  You are provided the opportunity to choose half the seed which is used to determine the roll number that is generated.  The important part that seems to apply here is that each roll is independent of one another which technically means, while improbable, an infinite losing streak can happen.  How are you not getting this?  Do you need it broken down and explained even further?  

Given that we are allowed the opportunity to check each individual roll against a set of strict guidelines on how the roll numbers are generated, I can't even fathom a way that the site could be "rigging" it.  Like there's some group of gnomes sitting behind some computers who selectively chooses who to give a fucking 10 red streak to on the fly?

What is the magic answer that will satisfy you?  Alright fine, I'll play along; Primedice is rigged!  Great, now what?  Do I get to join the club with the .01% of people in the community who actually truly believe this?


By the way, that was a shitty troll you did last night to Poloniex, claiming rather gleefully that you scammed them.  What sane, non-trollish person would go to one website and claim it's rigged, then boast about scamming another?  I'm glad they disproved the double-withdrawal you claimed to achieved since it helped further prove your intentions around these parts.