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Title: updated Post by: usagi on September 18, 2012, 01:29:47 PM updated
Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: bels on September 18, 2012, 01:45:03 PM If you can share. When do you plan on executing this aggressive buy back?
I ask not because I'm trying to unload my shares in CPA at an unreasonable rate (I already have them for sale for what I think they are worth) but instead because I am more or less studying the GLBSE. I've often talked to my friend who mines about how a mass buy back from a share issuer would affect the price of the shares and would like to see if my predictions are correct. If you can't share the start date I understand, keep up the good work. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Fjordbit on September 18, 2012, 01:55:53 PM Are you doing the buy back with your own funds or with the corporate funds?
Typically when a corporation does a buy back, it undilutes the shares, giving each remaining shareholder a larger dividend. This is the cause of the price rising. Will this be the case in this buy back, or will shareholders just continue to receive a share of the profits as if those shares were still issued? Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Fjordbit on September 18, 2012, 04:23:22 PM Are you doing the buy back with your own funds or with the corporate funds? Typically when a corporation does a buy back, it undilutes the shares, giving each remaining shareholder a larger dividend. This is the cause of the price rising. Will this be the case in this buy back, or will shareholders just continue to receive a share of the profits as if those shares were still issued? Yes, it will be to buy back the shares with the company. I.E. NYAN.C will be buying back it's own shares, CPA will buy back it's own shares, and so on. So then remaining shareholders will each get a larger dividend share? Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: BinaryMage on September 18, 2012, 04:26:59 PM Are you doing the buy back with your own funds or with the corporate funds? Typically when a corporation does a buy back, it undilutes the shares, giving each remaining shareholder a larger dividend. This is the cause of the price rising. Will this be the case in this buy back, or will shareholders just continue to receive a share of the profits as if those shares were still issued? Yes, it will be to buy back the shares with the company. I.E. NYAN.C will be buying back it's own shares, CPA will buy back it's own shares, and so on. NYAN.C is currently trading at about 0.3 BTC - significantly above its NAV. You know much more about finances than I, but it seems to me buying at this price would decrease, not increase, shareholder value. Example with rough numbers: NYAN.C starts with 1.25kBTC in assets and 5k shares outstanding, giving a NAV of 0.25 BTC. You buy back 1000 shares of NYAN.C for 0.3 each, totaling 300 BTC. NYAN.C now has 0.95kBTC in assets and 4k shares outstanding, giving a NAV of 0.2375 BTC. I understand dividends come into play, but dividends are generally proportional to NAV. I just fail to see how buying above NAV increases shareholder value or dividends. Perhaps you can enlighten me, usagi. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: EskimoBob on September 18, 2012, 04:55:38 PM CPA has 52078 shares outstanding, 2012-07-31 you had 46423.
Looks like you sold another 5655 shares. How many % of CPA are you planning to buy back? Looks like you only had 102.96 BTC This will get you about 770 shares or so of CPA or about 1.4% Aggressive buyback? Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Deprived on September 18, 2012, 05:07:19 PM CPA has 52078 shares outstanding, 2012-07-31 you had 46423. Looks like you sold another 5655 shares. How many % of CPA are you planning to buy back? Looks like you only had 102.96 BTC This will get you about 770 shares or so of CPA or about 1.4% Aggressive buyback? They have more cash than that. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110122.0 Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Fjordbit on September 18, 2012, 05:13:21 PM NYAN.C is currently trading at about 0.3 BTC - significantly above its NAV. You know much more about finances than I, but it seems to me buying at this price would decrease, not increase, shareholder value. Example with rough numbers: NYAN.C starts with 1.25kBTC in assets and 5k shares outstanding, giving a NAV of 0.25 BTC. You buy back 1000 shares of NYAN.C for 0.3 each, totaling 300 BTC. NYAN.C now has 0.95kBTC in assets and 4k shares outstanding, giving a NAV of 0.2375 BTC. I understand dividends come into play, but dividends are generally proportional to NAV. I just fail to see how buying above NAV increases shareholder value or dividends. Perhaps you can enlighten me, usagi. Usagi's first point was that future projected cashflow (and thus dividends) and not NAV should determine value, and I agree. This is the standard by which other companies are held. Apple doesn't have 655.35B worth of assets. If anyone cares, I can go into a deeper explanation of how future cashflow is the primary determination of company market capitalization. It's a pretty important concept if you hope to invest in securities. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Deprived on September 18, 2012, 05:28:06 PM NYAN.C is currently trading at about 0.3 BTC - significantly above its NAV. You know much more about finances than I, but it seems to me buying at this price would decrease, not increase, shareholder value. Example with rough numbers: NYAN.C starts with 1.25kBTC in assets and 5k shares outstanding, giving a NAV of 0.25 BTC. You buy back 1000 shares of NYAN.C for 0.3 each, totaling 300 BTC. NYAN.C now has 0.95kBTC in assets and 4k shares outstanding, giving a NAV of 0.2375 BTC. I understand dividends come into play, but dividends are generally proportional to NAV. I just fail to see how buying above NAV increases shareholder value or dividends. Perhaps you can enlighten me, usagi. Usagi's first point was that future projected cashflow (and thus dividends) and not NAV should determine value, and I agree. This is the standard by which other companies are held. Apple doesn't have 655.35B worth of assets. If anyone cares, I can go into a deeper explanation of how future cashflow is the primary determination of company market capitalization. It's a pretty important concept if you hope to invest in securities. Apple also hasn't lost 60-70% of its asset value and isn't having to borrow funds at around 2% per week because of a liquidity crisis. Where the value of assets is relatively stable then yes - valuing just based on those assets is horribly naive. When the assets are mainly investments (with unstable prices and low liquidity) then the valuation of the company has to be much nearer to the value of the assets. If CPA ever reaches a point where it generates steady revenue from its core business of insurance, outweighing any fluctuations in its investments then it would make no sense to continue to value it on nav. But right now that just isn't the case - its track record is one of losing asset value far faster than it generates operational profit: which doesnt tend towards a high valuation by ANY method. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Fjordbit on September 18, 2012, 05:36:26 PM Are you doing the buy back with your own funds or with the corporate funds? Typically when a corporation does a buy back, it undilutes the shares, giving each remaining shareholder a larger dividend. This is the cause of the price rising. Will this be the case in this buy back, or will shareholders just continue to receive a share of the profits as if those shares were still issued? Yes, it will be to buy back the shares with the company. I.E. NYAN.C will be buying back it's own shares, CPA will buy back it's own shares, and so on. So then remaining shareholders will each get a larger dividend share? Usagi, will the remaining shareholder each get a larger dividend share? I've asked this 3 times, but it seems you are missing the question each time. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: markm on September 18, 2012, 05:37:25 PM If anyone cares, I can go into a deeper explanation of how future cashflow is the primary determination of company market capitalization. It's a pretty important concept if you hope to invest in securities. That sounds like the makings of an interesting thread of its own. I am particularly curious whether/how retaining such earnings versus paying dividends would affect that since so far on my server (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53329.0) everything is NAV based, nothing deployed there so far has any current intention of ever paying any dividends. -MarkM- Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: theasian09 on September 18, 2012, 05:56:27 PM who needs sleep!
Curious to see where this goes, sad I have no extra $ to invest but oh well Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: drekk on September 18, 2012, 06:16:14 PM usagi, I salute you for management *and* communication skills. I've followed events in "Economy" for a quite a while and you're one of the few havens of rationality in here.
Should I ever consider putting some notable amounts of cash in the market, I just might knock at your door. ~drekk~ Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Deprived on September 18, 2012, 06:20:55 PM CPA has 52078 shares outstanding, 2012-07-31 you had 46423. Looks like you sold another 5655 shares. How many % of CPA are you planning to buy back? Looks like you only had 102.96 BTC This will get you about 770 shares or so of CPA or about 1.4% Aggressive buyback? Figures are a little off. I don't think you can get there from here. CPA makes money over time, as do it's holdings, which is how we are doing this. NYAN.C is currently trading at about 0.3 BTC - significantly above its NAV. You know much more about finances than I, but it seems to me buying at this price would decrease, not increase, shareholder value. Example with rough numbers: NYAN.C starts with 1.25kBTC in assets and 5k shares outstanding, giving a NAV of 0.25 BTC. You buy back 1000 shares of NYAN.C for 0.3 each, totaling 300 BTC. NYAN.C now has 0.95kBTC in assets and 4k shares outstanding, giving a NAV of 0.2375 BTC. I understand dividends come into play, but dividends are generally proportional to NAV. I just fail to see how buying above NAV increases shareholder value or dividends. Perhaps you can enlighten me, usagi. Usagi's first point was that future projected cashflow (and thus dividends) and not NAV should determine value, and I agree. This is the standard by which other companies are held. Apple doesn't have 655.35B worth of assets. If anyone cares, I can go into a deeper explanation of how future cashflow is the primary determination of company market capitalization. It's a pretty important concept if you hope to invest in securities. Apple also hasn't lost 60-70% of its asset value and isn't having to borrow funds at around 2% per week because of a liquidity crisis. Where the value of assets is relatively stable then yes - valuing just based on those assets is horribly naive. When the assets are mainly investments (with unstable prices and low liquidity) then the valuation of the company has to be much nearer to the value of the assets. If CPA ever reaches a point where it generates steady revenue from its core business of insurance, outweighing any fluctuations in its investments then it would make no sense to continue to value it on nav. But right now that just isn't the case - its track record is one of losing asset value far faster than it generates operational profit: which doesnt tend towards a high valuation by ANY method. Wow you love to embarrass yourself don't you. I *just said* we make money, and you even quoted a thread where I said approx. how much money CPA makes in a month. See, investors like you always think they are the wise guy. It's the classic "I have been scammed before so I know how to spot a scam" mentality. It's so blindingly obvious but they can't see past their own nose. Think: "I have been scammed before" and "I can spot a scam". Here's another one; You quote how much money CPA makes and acknowledge they have loads of cash, while on the other hand you claim that valuing CPA by it's revenue over it's nav is "horribly naieve". Hahahaha. You personify why I am doing this. Investors who have conviction but are fantastically wrong about it. CPA makes A% on it's contracts, it makes B% on it's investments and you can take this to the bank, it makes C% on people just like you, who think they know what they are talking about. I mean how hard is it really? All the information is out there, a digger like you who likes to follow me around and increase his post count any way he can (including by setting himself up for some pretty massive bitchslaps, I have to admit) could do a lot better than this you know. Revenue is not the same thing as profit. You consistently fail to realise that and believe you're doing well even when your nav falls by 60-70%. Quoting a thread where YOU said how much money CPA makes in a month is in no way the same thing as ME saying CPA makes that much money in a month. Becasue our definitions of making money are different. If a company has $1000 of assets at the start of a period, pays out $60 in dividends but ends with only $400 of assets then our interpretations would be entirely different. I'd say the company has done horribly and incurred a loss for its shareholders of $540 - 54% of initial capital. I'd also say that the company didn't "make" ANY profit. Accordingly, at most I'd value it at nav. You'd say it should be valued based on the 6% it paid in dividedns during that period. That's no shock - as that company is basically CPA. Every investor who bought 10 shares at 1 BTC has received around 0.06 BTC in dividends and their 1 BTC has ended up being backed by 0.3-0.4 worth of assets. And the value of assets backing CPA is pretty directly relevant to ability to generate profit - as you have to have assets to back up the insurance policies you write. If you really believe investments should be based only on dividend stream then you should be going all-in on OBSI.HRPT - as it's a real snip when measured in those terms at 1.0. But you won't (nor should you). Why? Because there's a high-risk associated with it. News-flash: There's also a high-risk associated with ANY company where the manager erodes NAV faster than paying out dividends. Why? Well do the math of what happens if it continues - as nav falls, to generate the same dividends per share then earnings have to increase progressively faster as a percentage of capital. But capital keeps falling. So either dividends stop/reduce (meaning valuing it on past dividends was wrong) or the company gos bust. You can repeatedly keep claiming those who disagree with you are wrong. But you're now on what? Your 3rd company to lose asset value? It's hardly surprising you don't want asset-based valuation to be used is it? Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: EskimoBob on September 18, 2012, 06:30:20 PM ... Good idea and please do! Educational materials are always welcome in BTC world. If anyone cares, I can go into a deeper explanation of how future cashflow is the primary determination of company market capitalization. It's a pretty important concept if you hope to invest in securities. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: BinaryMage on September 18, 2012, 06:31:24 PM NYAN.C is currently trading at about 0.3 BTC - significantly above its NAV. You know much more about finances than I, but it seems to me buying at this price would decrease, not increase, shareholder value. Example with rough numbers: NYAN.C starts with 1.25kBTC in assets and 5k shares outstanding, giving a NAV of 0.25 BTC. You buy back 1000 shares of NYAN.C for 0.3 each, totaling 300 BTC. NYAN.C now has 0.95kBTC in assets and 4k shares outstanding, giving a NAV of 0.2375 BTC. I understand dividends come into play, but dividends are generally proportional to NAV. I just fail to see how buying above NAV increases shareholder value or dividends. Perhaps you can enlighten me, usagi. Usagi's first point was that future projected cashflow (and thus dividends) and not NAV should determine value, and I agree. This is the standard by which other companies are held. Apple doesn't have 655.35B worth of assets. If anyone cares, I can go into a deeper explanation of how future cashflow is the primary determination of company market capitalization. It's a pretty important concept if you hope to invest in securities. But cashflow will decrease when assets are used to buy back shares. Usagi may have many admirable qualities, but I don't think she can make capital appear out of thin air or generate cashflow from nothing. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Deprived on September 18, 2012, 06:40:02 PM NYAN.C is currently trading at about 0.3 BTC - significantly above its NAV. You know much more about finances than I, but it seems to me buying at this price would decrease, not increase, shareholder value. Example with rough numbers: NYAN.C starts with 1.25kBTC in assets and 5k shares outstanding, giving a NAV of 0.25 BTC. You buy back 1000 shares of NYAN.C for 0.3 each, totaling 300 BTC. NYAN.C now has 0.95kBTC in assets and 4k shares outstanding, giving a NAV of 0.2375 BTC. I understand dividends come into play, but dividends are generally proportional to NAV. I just fail to see how buying above NAV increases shareholder value or dividends. Perhaps you can enlighten me, usagi. Usagi's first point was that future projected cashflow (and thus dividends) and not NAV should determine value, and I agree. This is the standard by which other companies are held. Apple doesn't have 655.35B worth of assets. If anyone cares, I can go into a deeper explanation of how future cashflow is the primary determination of company market capitalization. It's a pretty important concept if you hope to invest in securities. But cashflow will decrease when assets are used to buy back shares. Usagi may have many admirable qualities, but I don't think she can make capital appear out of thin air or generate cashflow from nothing. You honestly believe she's really going to do an aggressive buy-back of shares? There'll undoubtedly be a small immediate rise in the value of her securities - as people buy to speculate, hoping to be able to sell at a profit when her bid walls appear. When significant bidwalls don't emerge at above nav the price will fall back below to around nav/share - with the usual spikes up when she posts her weekly spin then the falls back down when everyone notices that despite her spin she's still steadily pissing away the funds they invested. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Atlas on September 18, 2012, 07:43:48 PM I just take this as Usagi investing in her own businesses. I wouldn't even call this a stunt. It's good business.
Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: totaleclipseofthebank on September 18, 2012, 07:48:51 PM But cashflow will decrease when assets are used to buy back shares. Usagi may have many admirable qualities, but I don't think she can make capital appear out of thin air or generate cashflow from nothing. You're right, but I will be using revenue to buy back shares while we don't have new contracts to sign (vs. just investing it or holding it). I will be keeping our existing assets on the books to back existing contracts and some room for signing new ones. This is a very common thing to do in business. Shares undervalued? Buy back to reward long-time shareholders. Shares overvalued? Issue new shares to raise capital and grow the business (although usually a tough sell to current investors) Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: BinaryMage on September 18, 2012, 08:19:13 PM But cashflow will decrease when assets are used to buy back shares. Usagi may have many admirable qualities, but I don't think she can make capital appear out of thin air or generate cashflow from nothing. You're right, but I will be using revenue to buy back shares while we don't have new contracts to sign (vs. just investing it or holding it). I will be keeping our existing assets on the books to back existing contracts and some room for signing new ones. I see; makes financial sense as long as no more promising investments are available, which doesn't seem to be the case at the current time. Thanks for explaining! Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Fjordbit on September 19, 2012, 05:06:10 AM Well first I think we should establish that it was actually two times that you asked and I did not answer, since the first time I actually did answer the question. Second I contest that you had actually "asked" me in the second and third case, because I was sleeping. As I was incapacitated from thought at the time, I do not think it is logical to assume I was able to answer you. You did realize I was sleeping, didn't you? :p Anyway no I'm just kidding. As I said tho yeah, it will be the company doing it so naturally dividends will go up. income will remain the same, just, it will be split up among fewer shares. That's how I hope to cause a revaluation. At the time I wrote the sentence, I had asked a 3rd time. It's right there to the left. You hadn't answered that question in your first post, just that you would be buying back with corporate funds, which implies nothing about the response to that question. You say naturally, but we really can't know what you're thinking unless you explain it. Sorry for not realizing you were asleep. I thought that you had made a response between the 2nd and 3rd posting, but it seems not. Title: CPA, NYAN.*, BMF YARR Shares outstandibg, a.o 19.09.2012, UTC ~16.00 Post by: EskimoBob on September 19, 2012, 04:09:55 PM Shares outstandibg, as of 19.09.2012, around UTC 16.03
Quote CPA 52079 BMF 5244 NYAN.A 1611 NYAN.B 2133 NYAN.C 3480 YARR 290 Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: bels on September 19, 2012, 04:50:18 PM Is there any news yet on when CPA expects to start issuing dividends again? I have been looking all over but haven't found an answer.
Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Deprived on September 19, 2012, 05:28:40 PM NYAN.C is currently trading at about 0.3 BTC - significantly above its NAV. You know much more about finances than I, but it seems to me buying at this price would decrease, not increase, shareholder value. Example with rough numbers: NYAN.C starts with 1.25kBTC in assets and 5k shares outstanding, giving a NAV of 0.25 BTC. You buy back 1000 shares of NYAN.C for 0.3 each, totaling 300 BTC. NYAN.C now has 0.95kBTC in assets and 4k shares outstanding, giving a NAV of 0.2375 BTC. I understand dividends come into play, but dividends are generally proportional to NAV. I just fail to see how buying above NAV increases shareholder value or dividends. Perhaps you can enlighten me, usagi. Usagi's first point was that future projected cashflow (and thus dividends) and not NAV should determine value, and I agree. This is the standard by which other companies are held. Apple doesn't have 655.35B worth of assets. If anyone cares, I can go into a deeper explanation of how future cashflow is the primary determination of company market capitalization. It's a pretty important concept if you hope to invest in securities. But cashflow will decrease when assets are used to buy back shares. Usagi may have many admirable qualities, but I don't think she can make capital appear out of thin air or generate cashflow from nothing. You honestly believe she's really going to do an aggressive buy-back of shares? There'll undoubtedly be a small immediate rise in the value of her securities - as people buy to speculate, hoping to be able to sell at a profit when her bid walls appear. When significant bidwalls don't emerge at above nav the price will fall back below to around nav/share - with the usual spikes up when she posts her weekly spin then the falls back down when everyone notices that despite her spin she's still steadily pissing away the funds they invested. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=81993.msg1204123#msg1204123 BMF, my flagship fund, has a real annualized rate of return of over 40% not including dividends. Do you get it yet? You're wrong. Seriously, are you retarded? Every time I correct your gross misunderstandings, you take it personally -- or at least, you pretended to get upset at being wrong to increase your post count. Go ahead, tell the people who have invested in BMF and my other funds how bad they lost out. You sir, are an idiot, and should probably be banned from these forums. Seriously, stop following me around a shitting in all my threads. You're worse than nimda was when I was running YARR. And how does your annualised return of 40% compare to the annualised return of someone who just held bitcoins? The only reason you can claim to given this return is because you're calculating it in US$. And the entirety of that gain is due to changes in the exchange rate. It's truly pathetic that you claim to be doing well just because BTC rose against the US$ at a rate faster than you managed to lose on investing. If people want to gamble on BTC rising then they can just hold BTC - without having to subject their coins to your (mis)management. I believe EskimoBoB posted the list of outstanding shares as a reference to see whether you were actually performing an aggressive buyback - or just using the 'threat' of doing so to try to drive the market up. That said I DO agree with you that you shouldn't buyback whilst the share prices are above nav - but wasn't that my point anyway? That your shares (not all shares) should only be valued at nav or thereabouts - nice to see you practice that even if you preach otherwise. Title: Re: CPA, NYAN.*, BMF YARR Shares outstandibg, a.o 19.09.2012, UTC ~16.00 Post by: EskimoBob on September 19, 2012, 05:31:32 PM Shares outstandibg, as of 19.09.2012, around UTC 16.03 [...] If you're looking for a meaningful stat you would need to keep track of 5 day average price as well. BMF for example has a NAV of ~.5 right now but has a small ask up at .74. I have no problems selling at that price if people want to buy (and apparently they do, we've been selling shares at .74 the last few days). This is about supply and demand. We will force the market to revalue us by our income or dividend. Why give away free shares? Selling shares at NAV now means that people are getting our hard work for free -- for example if we buy hardware or pay a dividend of say 2%, people that buy in during the middle of the week will get an unfair advantage. That's why I am floating the price like this. Of course I would not pay .74 for shares myself, but will have bids up around NAV. ... 1. All standing asks have been canceled. None of my companies (NYAN, BMF or CPA) currently have asks on the market for their own shares. 2. Each company will be aggressively buying back their own shares. ... 5 day average has absolutely nothing to do with reducing the number of shares outstanding. Your regular statements will show at what price you bought the shares. Hopefully. ;) Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: EskimoBob on September 19, 2012, 06:52:58 PM ..valuing BMF by the cost of hardware it holds (directly and through bonds). Usagi and the rest of you, please keep this in mind: Bonds do not give you any "hardware to hold". Bonds are not equity! Bonds are debt. Yes, bonds can be backed by pile of depreciating hardware but this will not make your bonds to be equity. Bonds are like a loan. If you hold fixed Mh/s paying "bonds", you are better off holding your coin as it is - bitcoin in your wallet. Invest only a half of what you "think" you can lose. :) Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Deprived on September 19, 2012, 07:12:54 PM And how does your annualised return of 40% compare to the annualised return of someone who just held bitcoins? About the same. You can calculate that yourself without much effort; just match the outstanding shares of BMF as "bitcoins bought" with the historical mtgoxusd prices (which are freely available) for any date. Just average out what it would have cost to buy BTC at the time vs BMF. Cut out all the rest of your smoke and mirrors. I don't need to mess around with historical mtgoxusd prices. You IPO'd at 1 BTC per share. Now here's some complicated math for you. If they'd kept that 1 BTC what would they have now? (Hint: it's more than 0.9 BTC and less than 1.1 BTC and you don't have to look at mtgoxusd to figure it out). Rest of your post was based on that rather elementary mistake. Total dividends per share to date come in at under 0.1 per share (0.094994 from a quick copy/paste into Excel). So even at 0.74 per share (which is horribly optimistic - and you've already said even YOU wouldn't buy at that price so don't value them that high) where's their profit? Looks like a 16% loss to me. Value the shares at nav and obviously it's a lot worse. All your waffle about valuing hardware in USD is just that - waffle. If gear was bought in USD back then, then it's now second-hand so very little of it will be worth more in USD now. And with BTC having risen vs USD it's rather obviously dropped even more in value when valued in BTC. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Factory on September 19, 2012, 08:07:30 PM Usagi. What is the current NAV of CPA? Thanks.
Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: bitcoinbear on September 19, 2012, 08:30:08 PM Is there any news yet on when CPA expects to start issuing dividends again? I have been looking all over but haven't found an answer. Did you read the FAQ? It says if you need more info, email cpa@tsukino.ca :> Anyway I don't see why we can't pay divs next month. We took a one time loss and the share price dropped, but since then we've been doing ok. I think that was a very rude way to answer a legitimate question. A simple answer of "Next month" would have been better. You spread info over several forum threads, no wonder people have trouble following what is going on with your funds. Title: direction Post by: usagi on September 19, 2012, 08:32:04 PM direction
Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Deprived on September 19, 2012, 08:45:14 PM Usagi. What is the current NAV of CPA? Thanks. It is impossible to answer that question, because it does not apply to CPA. CPA makes around 140 bitcoins a month. Those are our earnings. NAV, or Net Asset Value is not applicable here because CPA is not an investment fund which holds other investments, but a company which performs a service and makes money selling that service. Therefore "net asset value" is meaningless because we don't make money by holding assets. Technically speaking we could have no assets whatsoever as long as we had a sufficient number of accounts and say a 30 or 60 day payment window. Consider; in order to make as much money as CPA does by having money in Starfish Bank at 1% a week, for example, you would need 3,230 bitcoins. So that amount over 52,000 shares implies that people who like to put money in Starfish Bank will enjoy paying 0.062/share for CPA. What about BTC-BOND? That's popular, there's over 17,441 outstanding shares of that, and it only pays 0.5% a week. That would imply CPA is worth 0.124 per share. So what's the NAV of Starfish bank? What's the NAV of BTC-BOND? You see, NAV is not relevant here. What you are probably thinking of is "book value", which in CPA's case would be the value of everything it actually owns at a moment in time. But this is a poor way of valuing an insurance company which takes in more from premiums than it does from investment income (unless one were thinking of firing all the employees and liquidating the assets). So you see, when I say our NAV or book value is around 0.03 or maybe lower, that is a very poor way of looking at CPA. What matters is that we have enough to back all our current contracts, and enough to sign yet more contracts -- and we're making money. We're growing. For a company like CPA, assets under management means almost nothing, only the ability to pay current contracts and sign new ones. We're not an investment fund! Recent P/E data for 2012 (here, for example (http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~adamodar/New_Home_Page/datafile/pedata.html)) puts the average P/E ratio for Insurance companies (on the low end) at about 13. This recent Seeking Alpha article (http://seekingalpha.com/article/256742-8-insurance-stock-bargains-to-consider) gives several bargain Insurance companies with P/E ratios between 7 and 10. Using 7 as a very conservative figure, and assuming CPA signs no contracts for the next year, this puts us at a valuation of 11,760 over 52,000 shares -- about .226/share. In other words, 7 times higher. Right now the bitcoin market is giving us a P/E of 1. I feel that's ridiculous and I refuse to sell my shares that low. I'm sure the market disagrees -- fine, don't buy CPA! If the market wants to sell my shares at 20% of what I think they're worth, I'd be happy to buy them. Don't agree? Fine, sell your shares even lower! Be my guest. I think the real issue here is what P/E we should assign to CPA. I feel 1 is extremely low. I can't possibly see how that is justified. If you look at forward P/E after we sign more and more contracts next year, it's around 0.4 or 0.3. That's insane. Even more smoke and mirrors. What's the P/E ratio for insurance companies that lost 70% of book value in a few months? Oh - there aren't any (except yours). Earnings isn't just your turnover in insurance premiums. You also have to deduct from that (amongst other things) what you paid out on claims. How much did you have to pay out on Yarr? Yes - I know you haven't actually paid it all out yet (though bulk of what's still owed is conveniently owed to your nyan companies who don't seem to want it, unfortunately for their investors). Did you still make 140 BTC per month after deducting that? If so, then that means you actually lost MORE than 'only' 70% of book value but clawed a bit back from operating profit. And do bear in mind 20 of that 140 BTC/month is from BMF - who are paying 550 BTC 'premiums' over 110 weeks for a insurance policy with a maximum payout of 500 BTC and on which it seems to me they should already be claiming. Shuffling funds between your various suffering enterprises isn't making profits. It just allows you to rearrange which set of your shareholders bear which portion of the pain. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: pyrkne on September 19, 2012, 09:15:46 PM How much are my companies worth? I think we are about to find out. I sense just a hint of anger... But I think it's probably well-deserved. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: bitcoinbear on September 19, 2012, 10:01:31 PM Recent P/E data for 2012 puts the average P/E ratio for Insurance companies (on the low end) at about 13. This recent Seeking Alpha article gives several bargain Insurance companies with P/E ratios between 7 and 10. Using 7 as a very conservative figure, and assuming CPA signs no contracts for the next year, this puts us at a valuation of 11,760 over 52,000 shares -- about .226/share. In other words, 7 times higher. Right now the bitcoin market is giving us a P/E of 1. So you are saying the expected profit for CPA for the next year is 0.03 btc per share? In the extremely risky bitcoin environment, an isurance provider is a high risk investment, so a very low P/E makes sense. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Factory on September 20, 2012, 01:17:49 AM Usagi. What is the current NAV of CPA? Thanks. It is impossible to answer that question, because it does not apply to CPA. We're not an investment fund! :)You see, NAV is not relevant here. The term NAV is not limited simply to investment funds. There are multiple definitions. Net Asset Value and Book Value can be synonymous. Even though you should probably know that, I should have been more specific. Sorry. What is the current NAV/BV of CPA? Thanks. What you are probably thinking of is "book value", which in CPA's case would be the value of everything it actually owns at a moment in time. But this is a poor way of valuing an insurance company It is industry standard to use book value and price/book as base metrics to evaluate insurance companies. As a matter of fact, book value and price/book hold more importance for the insurance industry than any other industry when performing analysis. Please share how you came to believe that book value provides little value when analyzing an insurance company. I think the real issue here is what P/E we should assign to CPA. I feel 1 is extremely low. I can't possibly see how that is justified. If you look at forward P/E after we sign more and more contracts next year, it's around 0.4 or 0.3. That's insane. That is not an issue. We don't choose to assign a P/E ratio, the market will do that on it's own. If you manage CPA well, the P/E is more likely to expand. If you manage CPA poorly, the P/E is more likely to contract. That is the natural way of the markets. Regarding the prospects of additional contracts: Any attempt to determine a PEG ratio for an entity that has existed for such a short time will likely lead to an inaccurate assessment. While I have little doubt that there is potential for a growing number of contracts for CPA, a reasonable estimate can not be made. It is probably best if we avoid such attempts, as even those with the most intimate knowledge of CPA (Usagi) would likely not be able to make a proper determination. But you're free to value us at NAV if you wish, and not buy CPA :) The average NAV/BV for the sector is ~1.0 right now. Now consider the following:
With the average book value of major insurance companies in the sector being ~1.0, it would actually not be surprising to see CPA trade at a further discount to book. Regardless of who thinks CPA is undervalued or overvalued, regardless of if the individual heading it is a genius or a complete imbecile; the following are certain: With limited public information regarding the finances of CPA, price realization will be relatively slow and inaccurate. If CPA is drastically undervalued it would make sense for Usagi to release a financial statement. If the financial statement is properly done, comprehensive, and clear, the market will likely begin to head in a path that more appropriately prices the shares of CPA. The numbers should not lie. It would certainly solve some of the issues raised on these forums. [/list] Title: Re: CPA, NYAN.*, BMF YARR Shares outstandibg, a.o 19.09.2012, UTC ~16.00 Post by: EskimoBob on September 20, 2012, 06:25:33 AM Shares outstandig, as of 19.09.2012, around UTC 16.03 Quote CPA 52079 BMF 5244 NYAN.A 1611 NYAN.B 2133 NYAN.C 3480 YARR 290 Code: 2012.09.19 2012.09.20 Change Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Bitcoin Oz on September 20, 2012, 06:43:43 AM usagi is doing the best they can with what is available.
There are real scammers on glbse like bitdaytrade,rebate ,zip.a etc and bmf,cpa and nyan are nothing like them. Anyone who thinks operating a fund in this current market is anything like the normal stock market has rocks in their heads. Ask cytokine from MOVE.TO.FUND what its like to try and navigate it. tl;dr I wish people were doing this sort of due dilligence on actual scammers. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: EskimoBob on September 20, 2012, 07:50:52 AM Deprived and Factory are actually making valid points. Usagi, I have to agree with them that you have close to no experience in this topic. You mentioned, that you have been investing for 20 years (in IRC). So what? Most investors are as clueless when it come to real finances. :) Nothing strange about it and no need to feel insulted.
When talking about finances, proper terminology is everything. If you have hard time understanding, what is the meaning on NAV is the context, you have to read up on the subject or ask. I must say Usagi, your level of communication is good (you mentioned that you are a English teacher?) but lately it's mostly fluff. And this is starting to get a bit irritating. You also attack pole who obviously have a better idea what is going on than you do. How about using some accounting software that helps you generate reports that can tell investors, what's really going on? Kmymoney, GnuCash, Turbo CASH and/or some web based software are good enough for your needs. Spreadsheet of a portfolio in good start, but it shows only a partial picture. Get your books in order by figuring out what is what and let us know, what is really going on. PS! If I invest my BTC to BTC business, I do not want to see any "but... but... we made money if you convert it to USD (or any other fiat)" This is usually a clear sign of major fuck-up and you can be 100% sure, you have lost your invested principal. Do any of you have the IPO prices for the following: CPA BMF NYAN NYAN.A NYAN.B NYAN.C YARR (why not have that info on your website?) Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Factory on September 20, 2012, 08:07:51 AM What is the current NAV/BV of CPA? Thanks. As I said, that's a bad way to look at it. As a result we don't publish those numbers on the forums. What would the point be? We don't sell our company at liquidation value. It's in our contract to maintain 100% backing. So, you can actually calculate our book value if you see all of our contracts, or if you could see our spreadsheet.Book value is quite relevant; so are financial statements. I think it is quite reasonable to want access to such basic information. You would serve yourself better by not totally disregarding these things. It is industry standard to use book value and price/book as base metrics to evaluate insurance companies. No, it's industry standard to use earnings to value insurance companies.Earnings are always calculated in just like all other factors; that is standard. What I said in regards to BV and P/B is they are the fundamentals that are more relied upon when analyzing insurance companies. I encourage you to research varying valuation methods and learn why BV and P/B are important in regards to valuating insurance companies. I think the real issue here is what P/E we should assign to CPA. I feel 1 is extremely low. I can't possibly see how that is justified. If you look at forward P/E after we sign more and more contracts next year, it's around 0.4 or 0.3. That's insane. That is not an issue. We don't choose to assign a P/E ratio, the market will do that on it's own. If you manage CPA well, the P/E is more likely to expand. If you manage CPA poorly, the P/E is more likely to contract. That is the natural way of the markets. Ok lol. So let me get this straight. The market -- everyone but you -- comes up with a P/E to value CPA. But it's industry standard to value insurance companies by BV. Therefore you are interested in the BV of a company -- whose income has nothing to do with it's BV -- in order to assign value.Do I have you straight on this one? I stated that P/B is more applicable than P/E for analyzing insurance companies. I did not say that only one metric can be looked at; I simply said P/B is more pertinent. I am not sure why you focus on the P/E of CPA so much. Like I said before: If you manage CPA well, the P/E is more likely to expand. If you manage CPA poorly, the P/E is more likely to contract. That is the natural way of the markets. It is quite logical that I am interested in the book value of a company to determine value. There are all types of different 'value' that are useful to know- and book value is one of them. The average NAV/BV for the sector is ~1.0 right now. You're showing your stripes. First off, CPA is not in the mining or investment fund sector, so what you have said is just a verification of what I have said; people value it like a mining company, which is a big mistake. And one you seem intent on replicating.Second, CPA is the only insurance company in the land of bitcoin. We're our own sector. And I say, it's worth more than a P/E of 1. Anyone who disagrees is free not to buy CPA. What you quote there expresses nothing of a P/E ratio and there is zero mention of valuating CPA like a mining company. My mention of 'sector' was in regards to insurance. With the average book value of major insurance companies in the sector being ~1.0, it would actually not be surprising to see CPA trade at a further discount to book. Oh my god -- are you suggesting that real-world insurance companies trade at a P/E of ~1?You didn't read my post did you? I mean this is like the 3rd separate issue you got wrong from what I said. *facepalm* Look Factory, just stop arguing with me. It's clear you don't get it. If you think you are so smart, trade against me on CPA. You aren't listening and you don't appear to understand what the CEO of the company is telling you. Major clue time. I stated that major insurance companies were trading around 1.0 to book value. I did not say P/E of ~1. I said I would not be surprised if CPA traded at a p/b ratio of less than 1.0. I recommend avoiding making such statements as "You didn't read my post did you?*" if you are going to read mine so poorly. Again: If you believe CPA shares are grossly undervalued, why not release a financial statement? Surely an accurate depiction of it's balance sheet will clear most concerns. If the financial statement is in-line with your claims the share price will surely grow to reflect such. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Puppet on September 20, 2012, 10:02:12 AM The more I read, the more it seems usagi is smoking the same stuff Diablo is smoking. Neither can distinguish between revenue and profit, both misrepresent (to use a mild term) their numbers, both seem to think obsi's ponzi's are a sound investment. This cant end well.
The only point of the OP also seems to be to boost share price, and so far there is no evidence of any buyback; if EskimoBob numbers are right, its rather the contrary. Pump and dump? Title: Re: CPA, NYAN.*, BMF YARR Shares outstandibg, a.o 19.09.2012, UTC ~16.00 Post by: bitcoinbear on September 20, 2012, 02:17:30 PM Eskimobob, this keeping track of shares as if you are trying to catch me in a lie is a bit of a joke. Really, don't worry about it that much. And please, the last thing you want to do is start supporting puppet/deprived and factory ^^ I think you're a little smarter than that. Eskimobob is doing nothing but posting accurate facts, something your posts seem to lack. The only reason you would think he is trying to catch a lie is if there is a lie to catch. EskimoBob: this informaiton is useful, please keep it updated periodically (if Usagi does not post the information themself). Title: Re: CPA, NYAN.*, BMF YARR Shares outstandibg, a.o 19.09.2012, UTC ~16.00 Post by: btharper on September 20, 2012, 03:19:32 PM Eskimobob, this keeping track of shares as if you are trying to catch me in a lie is a bit of a joke. Really, don't worry about it that much. And please, the last thing you want to do is start supporting puppet/deprived and factory ^^ I think you're a little smarter than that. Eskimobob is doing nothing but posting accurate facts, something your posts seem to lack. The only reason you would think he is trying to catch a lie is if there is a lie to catch. EskimoBob: this informaiton is useful, please keep it updated periodically (if Usagi does not post the information themself). Go ahead, i'm just saying it's kind of stupid. You do realize the entire point of this thread, don't you, bitcoinbear? It's to point out the extreme amount of folly around here. Oh please, don't catch me in a lie mr. eskimobob! LOL... you people, seriously, you have no clue how to run a business, you do nothing, except sit around the forums and berate people who are obviously doing a good job. It's so obvious. You are trolls, or here to increase your post count. It's really pathetic. Tell me more about how my posts lack truth lol. You're the new guy bro. Keep that in mind. EskimoBob's numbers show that not only have you not bought any shares (which again, makes sense) but you've released shares of BMF. (You have also bought back shares of YARR, but that's an insured security which should in theory hit zero eventually anyway.) Usagi, you run several services that all make a lot of sense in the bitcoin world, and I personally think that insurance is something that bitcoin needs on occasion. There are a lot of people here that will give you a hard time, some of that's due diligence and you will on frequent occasions get a troll, but please don't let the folly pointed out in this thread be your own. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: guruvan on September 20, 2012, 04:39:31 PM Well.....I think this is an interesting experiment. I'm not sure I disagree with the logic that suggests an agressive buyback is in order. I'm not sure I agree that the named companies are in fact worth more than the current NAV (but that's a matter of opinion, not fact - and one can easily state one's true opinion in the orderbooks ;)
One thing I'd like to make clear - I (and many other investors) don't give one rat's ass about any USD valuation of BTC or any asset. I just don't care. I do not value my wealth in USD, and only buy USD with my BTC when I need it. So, to suggest that the value of a company (anyone, suggesting any company's value) has increased because it's value in USD has grown, when it's value in BTC has fallen is simply incorrect. The asset is valued and denominated in BTC. If its value in BTC goes down, its value has gone down. There's just no other way to see this - anything else is smoke and mirror bullshit (this is not specificall directed at you, usagi, but many issuers in general) Consider a major NYSE company suggesting their value had gone up in EUR while the stock price went down in USD, based on the EUR/USD exchange rate. It's ridiculous. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: markm on September 20, 2012, 04:53:22 PM One thing I'd like to make clear - I (and many other investors) don't give one rat's ass about any USD valuation of BTC or any asset. I just don't care. I do not value my wealth in USD, and only buy USD with my BTC when I need it. So, to suggest that the value of a company (anyone, suggesting any company's value) has increased because it's value in USD has grown, when it's value in BTC has fallen is simply incorrect. The asset is valued and denominated in BTC. If its value in BTC goes down, its value has gone down. There's just no other way to see this - anything else is smoke and mirror bullshit (this is not specificall directed at you, usagi, but many issuers in general) Consider a major NYSE company suggesting their value had gone up in EUR while the stock price went down in USD, based on the EUR/USD exchange rate. It's ridiculous. That is silly though, the value of a day's nutrition remains the same, one day of staying alive, regardless of whether bitcoins skyrocket to millions of dollars each or drop to a penny each. You are looking at the price in some specially volatile unit of measure, not the value. If bitcoins go up in value faster than stocks or bonds, invest in bitcoins instead of stocks or bonds. But don't claim e.g. a pound of gold has gone down in value just because you have changed the yardstick you are using to measure the value. You might just as well measure it in kilograms and complain that it was worth one (measured in pounds) yesterday but only worth a fraction (measured in kilograms) today. This so called bitcoin you are using to measure with has changed, it was a pound yesterday and a kilo today, good for you if you hold bitcoins, why waste your bitcoins buying something that is not getting heavier as fast as they are? -MarkM- Title: Re: CPA, NYAN.*, BMF YARR Shares outstandibg, a.o 19.09.2012, UTC ~16.00 Post by: EskimoBob on September 21, 2012, 07:44:49 AM Code: 2012.09.19 2012.09.20 Change Eskimobob, this keeping track of shares as if you are trying to catch me in a lie is a bit of a joke. Really, don't worry about it that much. And please, the last thing you want to do is start supporting puppet/deprived and factory ^^ I think you're a little smarter than that. [/quote] Why do yo think that? I have no reason to think you are a liar. Are you a liar? Are you announcing "news" just to manipulate withe the market? I hope not. I am writing those numbers down for myself and I do not mind sharing the results with others. Code: 2012.09.19 2012.09.20 2012.09.21 Change Title: Re: CPA, NYAN.*, BMF YARR Shares outstandibg, a.o 19.09.2012, UTC ~16.00 Post by: bitcoinbear on September 21, 2012, 02:43:16 PM Eskimobob, this keeping track of shares as if you are trying to catch me in a lie is a bit of a joke. Really, don't worry about it that much. And please, the last thing you want to do is start supporting puppet/deprived and factory ^^ I think you're a little smarter than that. Why do yo think that? I have no reason to think you are a liar. Are you a liar? Are you announcing "news" just to manipulate withe the market? I hope not. I am writing those numbers down for myself and I do not mind sharing the results with others. Because what you are doing makes zero sense. Why on earth are you keeping track of the outstanding shares? There seems to be no logical reason. It makes you look a little nuts to be honest. But fine, lol, just could you do it somewhere else? Like make your own thread for it? Thanks... Actually, what he is doing makes perfect sense. In your OP you said you would be doing an "agressive buyback". By showing the actual change in outstanding shares, he is illuminating what an "agressive buyback" means to you. Title: Re: CPA, NYAN.*, BMF YARR Shares outstandibg, a.o 19.09.2012, UTC ~16.00 Post by: btharper on September 21, 2012, 06:19:50 PM Eskimobob, this keeping track of shares as if you are trying to catch me in a lie is a bit of a joke. Really, don't worry about it that much. And please, the last thing you want to do is start supporting puppet/deprived and factory ^^ I think you're a little smarter than that. Why do yo think that? I have no reason to think you are a liar. Are you a liar? Are you announcing "news" just to manipulate withe the market? I hope not. I am writing those numbers down for myself and I do not mind sharing the results with others. Because what you are doing makes zero sense. Why on earth are you keeping track of the outstanding shares? There seems to be no logical reason. It makes you look a little nuts to be honest. But fine, lol, just could you do it somewhere else? Like make your own thread for it? Thanks... Actually, what he is doing makes perfect sense. In your OP you said you would be doing an "agressive buyback". By showing the actual change in outstanding shares, he is illuminating what an "agressive buyback" means to you. No, he's not... lol, you can't seriously believe that Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: EskimoBob on September 21, 2012, 06:36:03 PM Your latest posts are quite strange, I must say. Not sure, why are you trying to make me look like an idiot.
If you do not know what you promised on page 1, let me refresh your memory: There's a saying, be careful what you wish for. Well I am getting really sick of the trolls attacking me and I've decided to shut the door on them for good. I've been watching this market for 3 or 4 months now, and I believe it is time to shake the foundations. I've been stretching my wings so to speak via ASICMINER and OBSI.HRPT, and I believe now is the right time to announce PHASE TWO for me and my businesses. What is PHASE TWO? Simple. All my my businesses are hereby OUT OF IPO. 1. All standing asks have been canceled. None of my companies (NYAN, BMF or CPA) currently have asks on the market for their own shares. 2. Each company will be aggressively buying back their own shares. Why? This market is a market of people who know very little about actual investing in that everything is priced by it's net asset value. This is not how things are priced in the real world. The net asset value, or book value (as I use the term) is a consideration, yes, but what is more important than that are earnings. And, as we have seen, a strong cash position and good management are also key, especially in tough times. I believe that the market has severely undervalued some companies (like Starfish bank) while at the same time completely overvaluing others (i.e. certain "loans" which have recently defaulted). Basically, if a company does not earn money it is not a good investment. By stopping sales of shares and doing buybacks (in addition to paying regular dividends as per our contract) I realize some people will be greedy and offer their shares for a higher price than they are worth. Oddly enough, it's true, that me performing this action will actually strengthen the market for my shares. People are always looking for a deal. But I am willing to bet that even so, the people who are doing so do not really understand the value I am offering with my management strategies. If you have recently bought into my companies, or manage to swing a deal with someone and get in at the current NAV, consider yourself lucky. My strategy here is to force a revaluation based on the earnings of my companies. When it happens I am betting the share price will revalue sharply upwards. Time will tell if I am correct or not, but come hell or high water I will not have my elite, well-run companies valued at just below their NAV simply because there's no liquidity in the market. My advice to my investors? Think about how much you've invested into my companies and how much they pay each week. Know that I am thinking about this as well, perhaps obsessively. Know that real-world elite managed index funds usually return 1% a month average. Not 1% a week (or 2% or 3%+ for that matter). How much are my companies worth? I think we are about to find out. Only indication of your actions or lack of, are the number of outstanding shares in: CPA BMF NYAN.A NYAN.B NYAN.C NYAN YARR And this is also why I posted a request to GLBSE thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=74049.msg1033952#msg1033952 (if you like the idea, please quote it in the "GLBSE - request for next features" thread. For some reason, this simple feature request is still not implemented, while it adds huge value to investors and bring more transparency to the market and issuers actions. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: EskimoBob on September 22, 2012, 08:24:07 AM Quote 2012-09-21 17:46:13 usagi Too late. :p That is why companies do buybacks *(thank you for answering what EB could not). Because their company is undervalued. Now I would go back full circle to 45 min ago and point out that is the reason why I am doing share buybacks. As I stated in the OP, I feel my companies are undervalued 2012-09-21 17:46:19 usagi And so 2012-09-21 17:46:30 usagi Therefore..... if the company is no longer undervalued 2012-09-21 17:46:33 usagi I won't be buying back shares 2012-09-21 17:46:35 usagi Voila 2012-09-21 17:46:52 usagi Now hopefully my comments to you make more sense EB. I told you. Keep track of share price in addition to share count. Share count is really meaningless 2012-09-21 17:47:28 usagi Just removing my asks and buying 10 shares in the opposite direction spooked the market into doubling the value of CPA... 2012-09-21 17:47:36 usagi If I am wrong where are the sales into my bids? add you favorite "facepalm" picture right here Title: Re: CPA, NYAN.*, BMF YARR Shares outstandibg, a.o 19.09.2012, UTC ~16.00 Post by: EskimoBob on September 22, 2012, 08:42:47 AM Code: 2012.09.19 2012.09.20 2012.09.21 Change Code: Symbol 2012.09.19 2012.09.20 2012.09.21 2012.09.22 Change Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Puppet on September 22, 2012, 10:31:09 AM Quote 2012-09-21 17:46:13 usagi Too late. :p That is why companies do buybacks *(thank you for answering what EB could not). Because their company is undervalued. Now I would go back full circle to 45 min ago and point out that is the reason why I am doing share buybacks. As I stated in the OP, I feel my companies are undervalued 2012-09-21 17:46:19 usagi And so 2012-09-21 17:46:30 usagi Therefore..... if the company is no longer undervalued 2012-09-21 17:46:33 usagi I won't be buying back shares 2012-09-21 17:46:35 usagi Voila 2012-09-21 17:46:52 usagi Now hopefully my comments to you make more sense EB. I told you. Keep track of share price in addition to share count. Share count is really meaningless 2012-09-21 17:47:28 usagi Just removing my asks and buying 10 shares in the opposite direction spooked the market into doubling the value of CPA... 2012-09-21 17:47:36 usagi If I am wrong where are the sales into my bids? add you favorite "facepalm" picture right here usagi clearly doesnt understand market depth. Only an idiot would think that buying 10 shares for 1 BTC could double a company's value. Maybe he is learning though, the hard way: I went to try and sell out some of my HRPT before the weekend, and I noticed that someone was trying to sell over 10,000 shares at or below 0.1. o_O I placed some asks but wow, no one is buying. I would have thought people would step in like mad and buy a few shares but I guess someone knows something I don't :/ facepalm indeed. Here is a hint usagi, thats what happens when you buy ponzi bonds; for some weird reason no one wants to buy them when the ponzi begins collapsing and multiplying your bonds by the ask price is almost as accurate a reflection of your asset value as BurtWs BTCST account info. Ouf of curiosity, how much exposure do you have to this ponzi? I think your shareholders might want to know. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: EskimoBob on September 23, 2012, 09:36:06 AM Let me fix that for you If you post logs, poste them like they are and not edit to make yourself look like a victim of a imaginary attack. facepalm indeed. Here is a hint usagi, thats what happens when you buy ponzi bonds; for some weird reason no one wants to buy them when the ponzi begins collapsing and multiplying your bonds by the ask price is almost as accurate a reflection of your asset value as BurtWs BTCST account info. Ouf of curiosity, how much exposure do you have to this ponzi? I think your shareholders might want to know. Lol you guys are a fucking joke. Now it's EskimoBob. Talking shit on IRC. <EskimoBob> usagi: over the last few days you have lost most of you credibility usagi Well guess what <EskimoBob> so climb down form your high horse and have a fkn reality check usagi I'm an insider to all of this, and when I speak, you should listen. usagi Your schtick about credibility is a joke dude,. <EskimoBob> usagi: LOL fuck off girl_boy usagi You know zip and you probably aren't even a shareholder. usagi No you fuck off lol usagi You talk a lot of shit about stuff you do not know. usagi You really know nothing. usagi You have a sore ass because looking back.. you should have gotten insured with CPA usagi One way or another usagi Either a pirate contract or shorting mining usagi And you didn't usagi Now you want to blame everything on the people who could have saved you. (edit: I have no idea where this is comig from) EskimoBob wtf are you talking about now? <EskimoBob> dude, you really need to change your medication usagi We even paid out on matthew debt :> usagi You wanna talk about credibility.. Lol.. You have no right to talk to me that way and it makes you look like an idiot. usagi Go ahead usagi Post the share count numbers for today usagi LOL usagi LOL usagi You dont know when to quit <EskimoBob> I honestly thought you are one of the few sane people around here but looks like I was wrong usagi Come on usagi Post the numbrs usagi I'm waiting usagi Even you have to admit. I am trustworthy (Edit: I can not believe what I am seeing on the screen) usagi I keep my word and I work for my shareholders. So cut the crap. EskimoBob usagi: I can talk to how ever I want. Write that down and memorize it. You are a nobody. Just another stupid nicname in IRC. Nothing usagi Bzzzt usagi I do what I say I am going to do and I don't talk shit about businesses usagi You otoh have no conception of what it takes to run a business <EskimoBob> most of your talk is shit, usagi usagi I'm really going to enjoy your explanation of the share count numbers when you post them usagi I'm goign to enjoy watchnig you apologize for being wrong. <EskimoBob> you do not run business. You run some "make believe" bull shit usagi Or usagi Will you come up with some kind of an excuse usagi Lol you will probably come up with some kind of excuse like "we need to wait a month and see what really happens to the share count numbers" <EskimoBob> usagi: just shut up, no need to make your self in to a even bigger joke you are .. LOL And so on and so on. Well EskimoBob, post the share count numbers if you think it means something. All it will prove is one thing -- I do what I say I am going to do, and you talk a lot of BS. Here's a hint fuckface. Pick a security I run and I'll put up a vote on who should run it -- ME or YOU. If you think you have the balls and want to talk about issues like credibility and ability but like most people you have no actual balls or capacity to do anything other than talk shit. Come on, let's do it. Let's see if you have what it takes or if you're just a shit talker. So now you resort to shit slinging? Title: CPA, NYAN.*, BMF YARR Shares outstandibg, a.o 23.09.2012, UTC ~09.45 Post by: EskimoBob on September 23, 2012, 09:46:06 AM Code: Symbol 2012.09.19 2012.09.20 2012.09.21 2012.09.22 2012.09.23 Change Good job Usagi. Title: Re: CPA, NYAN.*, BMF YARR Shares outstandibg, a.o 23.09.2012, UTC ~09.45 Post by: btharper on September 23, 2012, 03:19:38 PM Code: Symbol 2012.09.19 2012.09.20 2012.09.21 2012.09.22 2012.09.23 Change % Bought Good job Usagi. The one exception is NYAN.A, but as that is guaranteed in terms of value and return AND feeds into the other NYAN operations, it makes a lot of sense not to buy back much of that. I added a % Bought column with truncated percentages. (To be clear, these numbers are not rounded to the nearest 0.1) Just a bit easier to compare funds with over 50k shares issued like CPA against 5k shares like BMF; that order of magnitude makes the buy backs on CPA look bigger than that on BMF to me, but the reverse is true by percentage (as I don't know what current share price is, I can't comment). Title: Re: CPA, NYAN.*, BMF YARR Shares outstandibg, a.o 19.09.2012, UTC ~16.00 Post by: MPOE-PR on September 23, 2012, 05:57:46 PM Quote Eskimobob, this keeping track of shares as if you are trying to catch me in a lie is a bit of a joke. Really, don't worry about it that much. And please, the last thing you want to do is start supporting puppet/deprived and factory ^^ I think you're a little smarter than that. Why do yo think that? I have no reason to think you are a liar. Are you a liar? Are you announcing "news" just to manipulate withe the market? I hope not. I am writing those numbers down for myself and I do not mind sharing the results with others. Because what you are doing makes zero sense. Why on earth are you keeping track of the outstanding shares? There seems to be no logical reason. It makes you look a little nuts to be honest. But fine, lol, just could you do it somewhere else? Like make your own thread for it? Thanks... Actually, what he is doing makes perfect sense. In your OP you said you would be doing an "agressive buyback". By showing the actual change in outstanding shares, he is illuminating what an "agressive buyback" means to you. No, he's not... lol, you can't seriously believe that Actually, bitcoinbear is right on this score. Title: Re: CPA, NYAN.*, BMF YARR Shares outstandibg, a.o 23.09.2012, UTC ~09.45 Post by: Puppet on September 23, 2012, 08:04:58 PM Code: Symbol 2012.09.19 2012.09.20 2012.09.21 2012.09.22 2012.09.23 Change Good job Usagi. Excellent job indeed, anyone who got to sell their shares to usagi should be grateful for the opportunity. The whole point of the buyback was pushing up share price to where usagi thought it should be, no ? He bought CPA shares up to 0.1 BTC. Now have a look at the price today. 0.03 BTC with a pretty significant ask wall at 0.034. Mission accomplished ? lol. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: puffn on September 23, 2012, 08:28:08 PM Code: Symbol 2012.09.19 2012.09.20 2012.09.21 2012.09.22 2012.09.23 Change Good job Usagi. Excellent job indeed, anyone who got to sell their shares to usagi should be grateful for the opportunity. The whole point of the buyback was pushing up share price to where usagi thought it should be, no ? He bought CPA shares up to 0.1 BTC. Now have a look at the price today. 0.03 BTC with a pretty significant ask wall at 0.034. Mission accomplished ? lol. You guys are awful. First, when Usagi takes the time to buy back at market prices, you guys shit all over the place about nothing being done. Then, when investor confidence has been fully eroded by your claims, and Usagi is forced to act quickly, and buy at higher prices(was it even Usagi? could have been a momentum investor) to show that it wasn't all talk, you shit all over the place about the price that was paid. Just mind your own business. Please. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Puppet on September 23, 2012, 08:53:40 PM You guys are awful. First, when Usagi takes the time to buy back at market prices, you guys shit all over the place about nothing being done. I dont think I or anyone else ever claimed it was a good idea to go against the market. Lets not pretend we somehow pushed him to do it, he is the one who made the OP and we just wanted to see if he was stupid enough to put his money where is mouth was. He did q.e.d.. But it wasnt entirely innocent or pointless. Market depth was nil a few days ago, so with only 10 BTC usagi could and did double the price of CPA. If the price had stayed there, it would have allowed him to put twice the asset value in all his other books and claim healthy NAV figures. Which of course is bollocks. And that is the real issue. You cant create 5000 BTC of asset value to put in your books by buying 10 BTC worth of shares. Quote Then, when investor confidence has been fully eroded by your claims , If I helped wake up any sleeping investors, then I think thats good. Its not my business to talk up already inflated share prices, I will leave that to usagi. Quote and Usagi is forced to act quickly, and buy at higher prices(was it even Usagi? could have been a momentum investor) to show that it wasn't all talk, you shit all over the place about the price that was paid. That he overpaid for those shares isnt the joke here. We are talking about just a handful of coins. Its how disingenuous he is when totally ignoring market depth when valuing his assets. He is still doing that, he calculates his NAV, even for his ponzi bonds based purely on ask, even though there are virtually zero bids or they start 50% lower. All his low volume assets are seriously overvalued because of this, and since he owns much of his own companies through other companies of his own, and most of them have close to zero market depth its very misleading. Of course it goes both ways, as I suspect we will soon find out when the snowball starts rolling downhill instead of usagi trying to push it uphill. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: puffn on September 23, 2012, 09:10:54 PM I don't have a problem with the assets incestuous ownership. It is pretty standard to have to look a few layers deep past the big 3 accounting sheets in order to determine the value of a company. I think NYAN was a little redundant in that respect, but I think that was made in order to provide a balanced risk portfolio for lazy investors.
As far as your claim of waking up sleeping investors goes, there is a term known as FUD. I don't know if you have heard of it, but the central idea is that if you create Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt, you can manipulate markets into behaving irrationally. Looks like 600 coins of stock bought back. 7k USD isn't something I would sneeze at. I suspect that had you guys not tried to create panic, the stock price would have risen and stayed, but that is neither here nor there. I believe Usagi when he says that CPA earns 150 coins per month in insurance related revenue. I also agree that CPA should only be partially valued based upon NAV. This sort of metric works really well when looking at stock portfolios such as YABIF, but not so well when it comes to actual businesses. Assets with minimal liquidity are pretty standard for this exchange. This is particularly true since the pirate induced credit shift and the faltering of mining with the ASIC switch. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Deprived on September 23, 2012, 09:17:39 PM I don't have a problem with the assets incestuous ownership. It is pretty standard to have to look a few layers deep past the big 3 accounting sheets in order to determine the value of a company. I think NYAN was a little redundant in that respect, but I think that was made in order to provide a balanced risk portfolio for lazy investors. As far as your claim of waking up sleeping investors goes, there is a term known as FUD. I don't know if you have heard of it, but the central idea is that if you create Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt, you can manipulate markets into behaving irrationally. Looks like 600 coins of stock bought back. 7k USD isn't something I would sneeze at. I suspect that had you guys not tried to create panic, the stock price would have risen and stayed, but that is neither here nor there. I believe Usagi when he says that CPA earns 150 coins per month in insurance related revenue. I also agree that CPA should only be partially valued based upon NAV. This sort of metric works really well when looking at stock portfolios such as YABIF, but not so well when it comes to actual businesses. Assets with minimal liquidity are pretty standard for this exchange. This is particularly true since the pirate induced credit shift and the faltering of mining with the ASIC switch. I'd be most worried that having lost a ton on Pirate she's now trying to go double or bust on Obsi. And her companies have more exposure to Obsi than she seems to realise (some of which, in fairness, wasn't her doing and is now unavoidable). She seems to have confidence in OBSI.HRPT at a time when nearly everyone else in the market believes it's a Ponzi about to crash. This smacks more of desperation to make a profit (for once), than of planned exposure to a properly assessed risk. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Puppet on September 23, 2012, 09:34:44 PM I don't have a problem with the assets incestuous ownership. It is pretty standard to have to look a few layers deep past the big 3 accounting sheets in order to determine the value of a company. I think NYAN was a little redundant in that respect, but I think that was made in order to provide a balanced risk portfolio for lazy investors. I dont think there is anything balanced about it. They are all knee deep in obsiponzi and other ponzi schemes. And because of the "incestuous ownership", it will have serious ramifications in all his other companies which either own or insure those bonds. Quote As far as your claim of waking up sleeping investors goes, there is a term known as FUD. I don't know if you have heard of it, but the central idea is that if you create Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt, you can manipulate markets into behaving irrationally. A little FUD is certainly warranted if you go over the books. There is every reason to have fear, uncertainty and doubt about what will happen if/when obsiponzi collapses. Quote I suspect that had you guys not tried to create panic, the stock price would have risen and stayed. And you think it should have? If you do, then thank us for the opportunity to buy some more shares cheaply. Quote I believe Usagi when he says that CPA earns 150 coins per month in insurance related revenue. I have no idea, but it would be interesting to find out how much of that is from other usagi companies and even more what sort of liability those 150BTC cause. If he (she?) insured other bonds that have direct or indirect obsiponzi exposure, this could become very very ugly very fast. No one pays for insurance if its not to insure some significant liability. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: EskimoBob on September 25, 2012, 12:28:35 PM Code: Symbol 2012.09.19 2012.09.20 2012.09.21 2012.09.22 2012.09.23 2012.09.25 Change 7 days Gain/loss from first day of trading (provided by assbot) Code: CPA [1@0.1BTC] paid: 0.00569688 BTC. Last price: 0.01 BTC. Capital gain: -0.09 BTC. Total: -0.08430312 BTC. (-84.3%) Total gain, if you invested equal amount of coin to every "fond": -26.2% Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Bitcoin Oz on September 25, 2012, 12:36:51 PM Now it looks like OBSI-HRPT is shutting down :/
Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: bitcoinbear on September 25, 2012, 01:30:25 PM Now it looks like OBSI-HRPT is shutting down :/ How much of these funds were invested in OBSI.HRPT? Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Puppet on September 25, 2012, 02:00:28 PM Now it looks like OBSI-HRPT is shutting down :/ How much of these funds were invested in OBSI.HRPT? looks like about 8000 shares direct exposure and.at least a few thousand indirectly through other holdings like bmf. www.tsukino.ca/cpa/nyan/ that's only obsi hrpt. don't be shocked if the other obsi junk goes too. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: EskimoBob on September 25, 2012, 02:02:18 PM Now it looks like OBSI-HRPT is shutting down :/ How much of these funds were invested in OBSI.HRPT? http://www.tsukino.ca/cpa/nyan/ NYAN.A OBSI.1MHS 400 (price not updated) NYAN.B OBSI.HRPT 5,367 (price not updated) NYAN.C OBSI.HRPT 500 (price not updated) Looks like it has not been updated for 9 days. This is obviously really convenient excuse to play dumb and shuffle that crap around. Fact is, even A and B owners are exposed to "ponzy" grade junk. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Bitcoin Oz on September 25, 2012, 02:05:01 PM Now it looks like OBSI-HRPT is shutting down :/ How much of these funds were invested in OBSI.HRPT? http://www.tsukino.ca/cpa/nyan/ NYAN.A OBSI.1MHS 400 (price not updated) NYAN.B OBSI.HRPT 5,367 (price not updated) NYAN.C OBSI.HRPT 500 (price not updated) Looks like it has not been updated for 9 days. This is obviously really convenient excuse to play dumb and shuffle that crap around. Fact is, even A and B owners are exposed to "ponzy" grade junk. There is also 2200 HRPT in NYAN.A which I complained about before as they shouldnt qualify as a low risk fund security. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Francesco on September 25, 2012, 09:31:50 PM I don't have a problem with the assets incestuous ownership. It is pretty standard to have to look a few layers deep past the big 3 accounting sheets in order to determine the value of a company. I think NYAN was a little redundant in that respect, but I think that was made in order to provide a balanced risk portfolio for lazy investors. As far as your claim of waking up sleeping investors goes, there is a term known as FUD. I don't know if you have heard of it, but the central idea is that if you create Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt, you can manipulate markets into behaving irrationally. Looks like 600 coins of stock bought back. 7k USD isn't something I would sneeze at. I suspect that had you guys not tried to create panic, the stock price would have risen and stayed, but that is neither here nor there. I believe Usagi when he says that CPA earns 150 coins per month in insurance related revenue. I also agree that CPA should only be partially valued based upon NAV. This sort of metric works really well when looking at stock portfolios such as YABIF, but not so well when it comes to actual businesses. Assets with minimal liquidity are pretty standard for this exchange. This is particularly true since the pirate induced credit shift and the faltering of mining with the ASIC switch. I'd be most worried that having lost a ton on Pirate she's now trying to go double or bust on Obsi. And her companies have more exposure to Obsi than she seems to realise (some of which, in fairness, wasn't her doing and is now unavoidable). She seems to have confidence in OBSI.HRPT at a time when nearly everyone else in the market believes it's a Ponzi about to crash. This smacks more of desperation to make a profit (for once), than of planned exposure to a properly assessed risk. It's not desperation! The point is NYAN.C has right in its contact it will blindly "invest" in anything giving immediate profit, regardless of the worries it might be all gone tomorrow. So he/she wasn't having a special confidence in OBSI.HRPT, but buying them was the only way to truly follow the contract. The problem with this is when A and B have losses too, and to make up for that, toxic assets make their way out of C to funds that should be clean of that junk. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: guruvan on September 25, 2012, 11:59:51 PM Now we're back to just insulting those who question your dubious accounting & definition of risk. No. That's not really how it works.
It's a huge red flag. Defensiveness always is....especially when it's so aggressive. I will personally continue to state my opinions about your behavior and practices so that others might be aware, and do their own due diligence on the subjects. If at some time you change your accounting, or behavior, I will change my tune. I have no personal problem with you, but I see massive risk for investors in your accounting. You may think it's bullshit, and overstated, but usually company owners do. But hey...I've had these concerns since I first met you, before you built any companies. What you've built has only shown me that my concerns were valid and are being realized. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: nimda on September 26, 2012, 12:25:40 AM lol
Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Bitcoin Oz on September 26, 2012, 02:04:52 AM I don't have a problem with the assets incestuous ownership. It is pretty standard to have to look a few layers deep past the big 3 accounting sheets in order to determine the value of a company. I think NYAN was a little redundant in that respect, but I think that was made in order to provide a balanced risk portfolio for lazy investors. As far as your claim of waking up sleeping investors goes, there is a term known as FUD. I don't know if you have heard of it, but the central idea is that if you create Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt, you can manipulate markets into behaving irrationally. Looks like 600 coins of stock bought back. 7k USD isn't something I would sneeze at. I suspect that had you guys not tried to create panic, the stock price would have risen and stayed, but that is neither here nor there. I believe Usagi when he says that CPA earns 150 coins per month in insurance related revenue. I also agree that CPA should only be partially valued based upon NAV. This sort of metric works really well when looking at stock portfolios such as YABIF, but not so well when it comes to actual businesses. Assets with minimal liquidity are pretty standard for this exchange. This is particularly true since the pirate induced credit shift and the faltering of mining with the ASIC switch. I'd be most worried that having lost a ton on Pirate she's now trying to go double or bust on Obsi. And her companies have more exposure to Obsi than she seems to realise (some of which, in fairness, wasn't her doing and is now unavoidable). She seems to have confidence in OBSI.HRPT at a time when nearly everyone else in the market believes it's a Ponzi about to crash. This smacks more of desperation to make a profit (for once), than of planned exposure to a properly assessed risk. It's not desperation! The point is NYAN.C has right in its contact it will blindly "invest" in anything giving immediate profit, regardless of the worries it might be all gone tomorrow. So he/she wasn't having a special confidence in OBSI.HRPT, but buying them was the only way to truly follow the contract. The problem with this is when A and B have losses too, and to make up for that, toxic assets make their way out of C to funds that should be clean of that junk. If HRPT doesn't collapse , the assets will be moved out before bitcoins are. So the assets will find themselves back in .C in short order, or sold if they can't be. Nefario has confirmed that asset thread's OP are valid and binding in terms of the contract in his comments on Goat's delisting. Therefore I can do what I want (i.e. what I said I was going to do) wrt OBSI.HRPT and the NYANS. Stop whining. If you guys don't like it, don't invest. The contracts have all been there and been the same from day 1. THIS IS NOT A MANAGED FUND. IT IS A DERIVATIVE. Everything we do is disclosed. There is nothing underhanded going on here. DO NOT INVEST IN WHAT YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND.. and if you do.. don't whine about it. Thanks. and if you do whine about it.. at least try to be a shareholder. People like Deprived and Puppet are just wastes of human brain cells. I am a shareholder and bought NYAN.A mainly because it was sold as low risk and now it contains 2000 ponzi shares meaning I need to realise a loss to get out of it. In what world is HRPT low risk ??? Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Deprived on September 26, 2012, 02:12:17 AM I am a shareholder and bought NYAN.A mainly because it was sold as low risk and now it contains 2000 ponzi shares meaning I need to realise a loss to get out of it. In what world is HRPT low risk ??? Contract includes a bidwall @ .99 do not sell for an immense loss. Yup - nyan.a shareholders aren't facing any sort of disaster (unless you believe usagi will actually default). It's nyan.b that are really getting screwed - their safe(er) investments will get handed to nyan.a because nyan.a chose to invest in HRPT. Doubt many nyan.b investors read the contract and expected their assets to end up being given to nyan.a because nyan.a invested in a high-risk non-mining security. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Bitcoin Oz on September 26, 2012, 02:18:09 AM I am a shareholder and bought NYAN.A mainly because it was sold as low risk and now it contains 2000 ponzi shares meaning I need to realise a loss to get out of it. In what world is HRPT low risk ??? Contract includes a bidwall @ .99 do not sell for an immense loss. There is no bidwall at .99 so yet again the contract is not being honored. Its called a "bidwall" for a reason. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Deprived on September 26, 2012, 02:36:50 AM I am a shareholder and bought NYAN.A mainly because it was sold as low risk and now it contains 2000 ponzi shares meaning I need to realise a loss to get out of it. In what world is HRPT low risk ??? Contract includes a bidwall @ .99 do not sell for an immense loss. There is no bidwall at .99 so yet again the contract is not being honored. Its called a "bidwall" for a reason. Meh - contract only says it'll be maintained in a reasonably timely manner. If it's been cleared with sells then just put shares up for sale at .99 and wait for usagi to come online and replace the wall. If he/she doesn't do it then, then you have a complaint - but short of using all the funds on a bidwall there's no way to guarantee a wall will always be there when someone wants to sell. I'd seriously suggest putting up a sell order rather than waiting for the bidwall btw - usagi's idea of a wall may be rather more modest than what you or I would consider to be a wall. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: Puppet on September 26, 2012, 07:01:42 AM Congratulations!
..to the shareholders that got out. In about one week, CPA market valuation just went from 52500 x 0.1 = 5250 to 36160 x 0.034 =1229 http://www.capsulecomputers.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Ouya-Kickstarter-02.jpg Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: Bitcoin Oz on September 26, 2012, 07:09:47 AM Congratulations! ..to the shareholders that got out. In about one week, CPA market valuation just went from 52500 x 0.1 = 5250 to 36160 x 0.034 =1229 To be fair it should make the dividends increase by a lot since the same revenue now gets split amongst less shares. That over time might increase the share price for people who want dividend income stream. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: Puppet on September 26, 2012, 07:21:42 AM To be fair it should make the dividends increase by a lot since the same revenue now gets split amongst less shares. That over time might increase the share price for people who want dividend income stream. Thats of course true if you believe there will be (non trivial) dividends to be paid. Without a public record of CPA's assets and liabilities, I wouldnt count on that, not when it indirectly holds at least 1000s of obsiponzi bonds (through its ownership of NYAN) and has to insure Nyan.A (and who knows what else) against obsi.ponzi losses. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: Bitcoin Oz on September 26, 2012, 07:25:37 AM To be fair it should make the dividends increase by a lot since the same revenue now gets split amongst less shares. That over time might increase the share price for people who want dividend income stream. Thats of course true if you believe there will be (non trivial) dividends to be paid. Without a public record of CPA's assets and liabilities, I wouldnt count on that, not when it indirectly holds at least 1000s of obsiponzi bonds (through its ownership of NYAN) and has to insure Nyan.A (and who knows what else) against obsi.ponzi losses. Im just saying thats the reasoning behind it. Im as annoyed as anyone that OBSI.HRPT is held by both NYAN.A and B when in reality it should be solely in NYAN.C which is the HIGH RISK FUND. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: pyrkne on September 26, 2012, 07:27:17 AM Fact is, even A and B owners are exposed to "ponzy" grade junk. You sir, are a fraud. And when I say fraud, I mean you are issuing a type of malicious criminal libel for financial gain. Trust me this is a well-known type of crime. Actually don't trust me. Look it up yourself. You're being paid to discredit be. I'd be really careful with facts and figures if I were you. It's now become obvious that you are trying to depress the price of BMF and other companies for whatever reason. You have outstanding scammer accusations against you with multiple supporting witnesses against you, including forum mods. I will be honestly surprised if you escape a scammer tag. Scammer tag or not for him, do you honestly think this is a flattering tone to take? You seem most defensive when accused of lacking professionalism. And yet lacking professionalism on this forum looks to the casual observer like your day job. ~pyotr Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: EskimoBob on September 26, 2012, 08:07:14 AM Fact is, even A and B owners are exposed to "ponzy" grade junk. You sir, are a fraud. And when I say fraud, I mean you are issuing a type of malicious criminal libel for financial gain. Trust me this is a well-known type of crime. Actually don't trust me. Look it up yourself. You're being paid to discredit be. I'd be really careful with facts and figures if I were you. It's now become obvious that you are trying to depress the price of BMF and other companies for whatever reason. You have outstanding scammer accusations against you with multiple supporting witnesses against you, including forum mods. I will be honestly surprised if you escape a scammer tag. Scammer tag or not for him, do you honestly think this is a flattering tone to take? You seem most defensive when accused of lacking professionalism. And yet lacking professionalism on this forum looks to the casual observer like your day job. ~pyotr Usagi, you are the scammer here. Why do you call me a scammer is still unclear. I have never scammed anyone. If "scamm = having a opinion based on known facts about some fucked up portfolios or imaginary Co's" then you need to see a professional and get another prescription. Usagi, you have broken your contract with your investors (including me), I am surprised you do not have a scammer tag. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: Puppet on September 26, 2012, 08:15:06 AM Im just saying thats the reasoning behind it. Dividends isnt the reason. When usagi requested a loan, saying it was needed to grow CPA business and get more insurance contracts ("We have contracts on the table that we can't sign because we can't back the assets yet."), I predicted (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110122.msg1216124#msg1216124) the coins would instead be used for this: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uidDGT1iHXY/T7p_Fx05yUI/AAAAAAAAALc/UzqXW26CEng/s1600/pushing-boulder.jpg Q.E.D. The reasoning is as simple as it is flawed; because of the circular ownership of usagi's companies, any loss (or gain) in NAV in any of them has a leveraged effect on all of them. For instance, Nyan B holds a large amount of CPA shares. If CPA price goes down, it hurts Nyans NAV, which in turn costs CPA because it both owns and insures NYAN. And so you get a downward spiral, since a further lowering of CPA value again hurts Nyan. The same is true for BMF <> Nyan <> CPA. So rather than let the market decide what the assets are worth, usagi discovered that with such low market depth, you can easily manipulate prices - at least briefly. He proudly announced he doubled CPA market valuation by buying 1 BTC worth of shares. That sounded like a plan, but of course it, didnt last very long. So he decided to get a loan to have more ammo to really push the rock uphill. He spent at least 500 BTC (most of it loaned at 100+% APR) with no real effect on share price. It only showed the emperor has no clothes. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: Puppet on September 26, 2012, 08:53:01 AM You've really got to stop lying. Whats the lie? Are you denying CPA traded at .1 BTC about a week ago when there were >50K shares? Are you denying its trading at 0.034 now that there are 36160 ? Quote This guy is a liar and he's attempting to manipulate the stock price. I have it on good authority he is being paid to do so. Back that up, I dare you. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: Puppet on September 26, 2012, 09:04:07 AM Dividends isnt the reason. When usagi requested a loan, saying it was needed to grow CPA business and get more insurance contracts ("We have contracts on the table that we can't sign because we can't back the assets yet."), Verifiable fact. Its a direct quote. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110122.msg1216124 Quote I predicted (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110122.msg1216124#msg1216124) the coins would instead be used for this: Verifiable fact. I just linked the evidence. Quote The reasoning is as simple as it is flawed; because of the circular ownership of usagi's companies, any loss (or gain) in NAV in any of them has a leveraged effect on all of them. Simple fact Quote For instance, Nyan B holds a large amount of CPA shares. If CPA price goes down, it hurts Nyans NAV, which in turn costs CPA because it both owns and insures NYAN. And so you get a downward spiral, since a further lowering of CPA value again hurts Nyan. Verifiable fact. Evidence in your own financial reports. Quote The same is true for BMF <> Nyan <> CPA. Verifiable fact. Evidence in your own financial reports. Quote So rather than let the market decide what the assets are worth, usagi discovered that with such low market depth, you can easily manipulate prices - at least briefly. He proudly announced he doubled CPA market valuation by buying 1 BTC worth of shares. Verifiable fact. Need the link? Quote That sounded like a plan, but of course it, didnt last very long. Verifiable fact https://glbse.com/asset/view/CPA Quote He spent at least 500 BTC (most of it loaned at 100+% APR) with no real effect on share price. Verifiable fact https://glbse.com/asset/view/CPA Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: EskimoBob on September 26, 2012, 11:20:33 AM I will be honestly surprised if you (eskimobob) escape a scammer tag. Scammer tag or not for him, do you honestly think this is a flattering tone to take? You seem most defensive when accused of lacking professionalism. And yet lacking professionalism on this forum looks to the casual observer like your day job. ~pyotr You're about as pro as I am, thanks. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112443.msg1221985#msg1221985 Your question and tone is fair. His is not. There is a BIG difference between the sort of misrepresentation EskimoBob/puppet does, and stating one's opinion. EskimoBob/puppet have now gone off the deep end, completely fabricating information about my companies. Please see the above link. EskimoBob needs a ban. Let me introduce you to a real Usagi, guy who looks for people to attack other securities IRC 2012.09.25 Quote EskimoBob usagi: do you recall when you asked me to help you set up 20 sock puppet accounts and help you to find flaws in other securities? guruvan- that will come usagi EskimoBob you even wanted to pay me and I told you NO! usagi Nope. EskimoBob do you want me to post the log? guruvan- oh lolz usagi You THINK it will come, guruvan. Mayube you even want it to come. But it won't EskimoBob trust me, you do not want that guruvan- aw...c'mon EskimoBob usagi EskimoBob go ahead. You're a scammer. You lie about my companies and me, I am not suprised you would sink to making up fake logs guruvan- I'd love to see more scammy bullshit today usagi Post em right now, let me see :) EskimoBob LOL usagi usagi Come on EB usagi Post the logs. right now. EskimoBob really? usagi What's that.. no logs? EskimoBob are you sure? And this is what I posted to show what a scumbag Usagi actually is: Code: 2012-08-05 16:29:46 usagi We need someone to go attack competitors on bitcointalk.org Code: 2012-08-05 16:31:05 EskimoBob hand over your list of targets and what is in it for me ? So, your honest Usagi is actually a scumbag who is willing to pay for users to troll hes competition, while he wastes your hard earned coin on questionable "investments" Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: Puppet on September 26, 2012, 11:52:59 AM ROFL. So its usagi thats paying trolls. Nice. I guess that explains why there are one or two posters here defending the indefensible.
Unfortunately for usagi, trolls cant change the grim reality. And that reality is, if you calculate Nyan.A nav with latest prices, even when generously assuming the obsiponzi and other delisted ponzis are still worth anything, you get a total of 1075 BTC or 0.71 per share. That means a shortfall of ~426 BTC will have to be ponied up by nyan.B When you calculate nyan,b's current nav, you get 1345 BTC or 0.73 BTC per share, That means its already 496 BTC short of its 1 BTC target. But since it will have to compensate for Nyan.A too, its really 496+426= 922 BTC short. Ouch. Nyan.C's total nav is 495 BTC (on paper at least, in reality most of it is already worthless unsaleable and delisted rubbish). So even if its assets gets transferred entirely, Nyan.B is still 400+ BTC short. TL;DR, Nyan C will be worth zero and optimistically, Nyan.B will still have a NAV of only 0.77. If you think thats bad, if you write off the obsi and V.HRL shit as you probably should, and you mark BMF at nav (~0.3) instead of usagi's manipulated price, it really gets really grim. In this scenario, Nyan.A has only 873 worth of assets or 0.58 per share. A shortfall of 628 BTC. Under the same scenario, Nyan.B has 949 worth of assets, if you deduct the Nyan.A shortfall there is only 321 BTC left, 0.17 BTC per share. Add everything from Nyan.C and it gets to 0.34 BTC/share. Ouch Ouch. OH, and before usagi starts calling me a liar again, do the math and decide who is lying. (oh, and I didnt even factor in any feedback loops. Nyan losing value like that will impact CPA and BMF nav, which will further depress nyan's NAV). Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: Bitcoin Oz on September 26, 2012, 12:36:50 PM Ive had a .99 ask up since early this morning for NYAN.A (about 12 hours)
Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: Bitcoin Oz on September 26, 2012, 02:04:18 PM ROFL. So its usagi thats paying trolls. Nice. I guess that explains why there are one or two posters here defending the indefensible. Tell me more. Please explain to me, where all the trolls are that I hired? Oh i'm sorry, they were actualy hired by someone else to attack me. Nice smokescreen. I wonder how you explain that source of income on a tax form. "Professional troll". Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: Puppet on September 26, 2012, 02:12:12 PM ROFL. So its usagi thats paying trolls. Nice. I guess that explains why there are one or two posters here defending the indefensible. Tell me more. Please explain to me, where all the trolls are that I hired? Oh i'm sorry, they were actualy hired by someone else to attack me. Nice smokescreen. You dont get to make gratuitous accusations about my integrity when all I have posted so far are provable facts and reasonable opinions (which have panned out 100% so far). I stand by each and every one of them, I can back them all up. Can you ? I bet you cant. So point out my lies or apologize. Provide evidence that anyone is paying me to post or apologize. Back up or shut up usagi. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: Puppet on September 26, 2012, 02:56:45 PM First of all, you've been caught in several outright lies recently, Where? Put up or shut up. Quote which is why you are being called out for a scammer tag on the scammer tag forum. LOL. You started that thread, so far no one agrees and everyone agrees that what I posted is 100% factually correct. Considering its first grade arithmetic, that shouldnt come as a suprise. You need to tell your paid sockpuppets to give you some support there, so we know who they are. Quote https://glbse.com/vote/view/148 Thats going to be very convincing, considering how many of those shares are controlled by you. I guess you will vote no? Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: Puppet on September 26, 2012, 03:36:34 PM Nyan:
http://www.tsukino.ca/cpa/nyan/ BMF: http://tsukino.ca/bmf/holdings-nav/ Make sure to adjust prices, they are... somewhat optimistic. CPA is a black box (or black hole) afaik. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: Puppet on September 26, 2012, 03:42:04 PM There is something here:
http://www.tsukino.ca/cpa/accounts/ Dont ask me what it means. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: EskimoBob on September 26, 2012, 03:53:38 PM Code: Symbol 2012.09.19 2012.09.20 2012.09.21 2012.09.22 2012.09.23 2012.09.25 2012.09.26 Change % There is something here: http://www.tsukino.ca/cpa/accounts/ Dont ask me what it means. shhhh don't tell him :) To be honest, showing only what you hold at the moment in your portfolio is a partial picture of what is going on. Why not show income/loss from trading, dividends, fees, share swaps and coin in/out etc. Usagi, do you know how to compile a real P/L statement for a investment portfolio? Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: EskimoBob on September 26, 2012, 04:34:58 PM BTW, for the future NAV calculations for BMF, do not forget to use 0 for the dead duck in BMF portfolio: 1000 shares of UDN.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110613.0 Pufff... Quote 5. The fund is mandated to only invest in bitcoin mining companies listed on the GLBSE and to perform due diligence when investing in securities on the GLBSE. I guess due diligence has no meaning in this contract Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: bitcoinbear on September 26, 2012, 07:15:15 PM So, your honest Usagi is actually a scumbag who is willing to pay for users to troll hes competition, while he wastes your hard earned coin on questionable "investments" Oooh, pick me, pick me! I'll do it! Just send me the list of targets and I will troll the heck out of them for a salary in bitcoins :) Although, now that the plan is out in the open, it might not work so good. But You could still pay me to put up posts. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: bitcoinbear on September 26, 2012, 08:38:52 PM If I offered to do this mr. bear I assure you I have the resources. It is not a problem finding someone to do work like this, I assure you. This goes on in the real world all the time. Paid bashers. All the time. But I ask you; where are my employees? And who are my competitors? I am an insurance company. WTF? I'm the only one! Hot shit. EskimoBob OUTED himself on this one. It's so obvious. Right after "someone" offered to employ eskimobob (and a number of others probably), trolls start appearing and trashing my threads. Isn't it ironic that they would try and lay the blame on me. Only problem is, it doesn't make sense and actually points to them. I was just wondering that myself, who would you even consider a competitor you would need to bash? I suppose MU could be considered a competitor of BMF, but why even bother? I am not really familliar with all the details of IRC, how easy would it be to sign in using another person's name? How easy is it to fake logs, couldn't you just edit them to your hearts content after pasting into the reply, or even fabricate the whole thing from scratch? Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: Deprived on September 26, 2012, 08:40:25 PM 4. Accounts are created in the 2nd and 3rd week of august -- particularly Puppet and Deprived. Can't comment on Puppet - but suggest you have another look at when my account was created then apologise. HINT: the year is relevant lol. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: jborkl on September 26, 2012, 08:56:14 PM Ok I bit and looked at your dates on your account.
Necroaccount much there? Nov 5 2011 Last post really May 31 2012-Came back from the dead and posted once Sept 8 2012- Came back from the dead again and started blowing people up You get lost for a year there? Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: Puppet on September 26, 2012, 09:14:44 PM LOL. I dont even know who Mircea is. Is that MPOE-PR with the fat chick avatar? The one with the porn site?
Anyway, Diablo spewed the same crap you are spewing now. Instead of focusing on his business and taking advice and clarifying things to his investors, he went in total denial and while he was burning DMC to the ground, accused me and everyone else that spoke sense that they were trolling, needed a scammer tag, that I was the same person as some 15 other posters who were all arguing against him. I dont believe anyone posted anything there because anyone paid them to do it, but only because Diablo was screwing up, fucking his investors either through gross incompetence or possibly fraud. It didnt help that at the same time, he was being unbelievably arrogant. Sound familiar? Thats the parallel usagi; you only came to my attention when you flipped 180 degrees on Diablo and for 5BTC agreed to screw over his shareholders and defend his stealing from his investors. Its only then that I started paying any attention to you and your business, and noticed, that while slightly less extreme, you too are screwing up and fucking your investors either through incompetence or possibly fraud, while being incredibly arrogant about it. One might be excused to think you and diablo are one and the same. But whether its you, Diablo, Obsi, PatrickHarnett, Goat, Hasking, Ziggystar, Pirate or anyone else, I will not sit idly while leeches blow hot air to inflate GLSBE bubbles with other people's coins, take a profit for themselves before their bubbles collapse, robbing their investors and killing this economy. Now unlike Diablo, you can keep up the good news show parade for a little longer perhaps, but the numbers dont lie, anyone can do the math. No one needs to pay me to bring stuff like that to light, I will do it for free with pleasure. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: Puppet on September 26, 2012, 09:25:43 PM BTW, Usagi, you are the one thats on record for taking money to spread propaganda, and to be willing to spend money to have others spread propaganda. Ive never taken a dime and would never even consider it. But even IF I was on someone's payroll, so what? How would that make my posts any less factual? If they were lies, whether someone paid for them or not, they should still be just as easy to disprove. But they are not lies, so you cant, and all thats left is ad hominem attacks and hope no one double checks my numbers.
Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: MPOE-PR on September 26, 2012, 11:03:39 PM So, your honest Usagi is actually a scumbag who is willing to pay for users to troll hes competition, while he wastes your hard earned coin on questionable "investments" Oooh, pick me, pick me! I'll do it! Just send me the list of targets and I will troll the heck out of them for a salary in bitcoins :) Although, now that the plan is out in the open, it might not work so good. But You could still pay me to put up posts. This is what I am piecing together: 1. Around the time I put up my letter to shareholders on August 1st, Mircea and I have an argument on #bitcoin-assets where ciuciu and I call him out for not having an education. We did this because he was continuously slandering and berating Nefario for not having a financial education. Well it turns out that Mircea has no education at all (no post secondary education). 2. He puts me on ignore. 3. August 5th. Mircea contacts EskimoBob and possibly others, requesting that people create sock puppet accounts to discredit me on the forums. 4. Accounts are created in the 2nd and 3rd week of august -- particularly Puppet and Deprived. 5. Attacks begin before they're even out of the newbies forum. They literally leave the newbies forum, and head straight to the Securities forum and start trolling in my threads. 6. After a couple weeks I corner EskimoBob on IRC and he agrees to a contract, which he breaks, netting him a scammer tag accusation (currently under review by Maged). 7. In response to this, he posts logs of a conversation he had with SOMEONE, but with my name in place of whomever it was. 8. TWO DAYS LATER.... MPOE-PR announces that people are being awarded 10,000 shares of MPOE.ETF. Among them are trolls who have been attacking me, however noticably absent are Puppet and EskimoBob as they have outstanding scammer threads which are under review. If I offered to do this mr. bear I assure you I have the resources. It is not a problem finding someone to do work like this, I assure you. This goes on in the real world all the time. Paid bashers. All the time. But I ask you; where are my employees? And who are my competitors? I am an insurance company. WTF? I'm the only one! Hot shit. EskimoBob OUTED himself on this one. It's so obvious. Right after "someone" offered to employ eskimobob (and a number of others probably), trolls start appearing and trashing my threads. Isn't it ironic that they would try and lay the blame on me. Only problem is, it doesn't make sense and actually points to them. For the record, this is complete insanity. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: pyrkne on September 27, 2012, 12:47:37 AM BTW, Usagi, you are the one thats on record for taking money to spread propaganda, and to be willing to spend money to have others spread propaganda. Ive never taken a dime and would never even consider it. But even IF I was on someone's payroll, so what? How would that make my posts any less factual? If they were lies, whether someone paid for them or not, they should still be just as easy to disprove. But they are not lies, so you cant, and all thats left is ad hominem attacks and hope no one double checks my numbers. For the record, I don't care even if you're being paid. Because I'm capable of seeing posts as more than a vote for either side. If "trolling" (as if that's what this is) is enough to bring down your company, your company wasn't stable enough. If you honestly think paid shills could convince your investors that your companies aren't worth it, then they aren't worth it enough. Calling people trolls and sockpuppets LEFT AND RIGHT smacks of desperation. Usagi - I'd love to invest with you. But you don't exactly inspire confidence... ever. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] The Wind Changes Direction -- are you prepared? Post by: EskimoBob on September 27, 2012, 08:03:05 AM So, your honest Usagi is actually a scumbag who is willing to pay for users to troll hes competition, while he wastes your hard earned coin on questionable "investments" Oooh, pick me, pick me! I'll do it! Just send me the list of targets and I will troll the heck out of them for a salary in bitcoins :) Although, now that the plan is out in the open, it might not work so good. But You could still pay me to put up posts. This is what I am piecing together: 1. Around the time I put up my letter to shareholders on August 1st, Mircea and I have an argument on #bitcoin-assets where ciuciu and I call him out for not having an education. We did this because he was continuously slandering and berating Nefario for not having a financial education. Well it turns out that Mircea has no education at all (no post secondary education). 2. He puts me on ignore. 3. August 5th. Mircea contacts EskimoBob and possibly others, requesting that people create sock puppet accounts to discredit me on the forums. 4. Accounts are created in the 2nd and 3rd week of august -- particularly Puppet and Deprived. 5. Attacks begin before they're even out of the newbies forum. They literally leave the newbies forum, and head straight to the Securities forum and start trolling in my threads. 6. After a couple weeks I corner EskimoBob on IRC and he agrees to a contract, which he breaks, netting him a scammer tag accusation (currently under review by Maged). 7. In response to this, he posts logs of a conversation he had with SOMEONE, but with my name in place of whomever it was. 8. TWO DAYS LATER.... MPOE-PR announces that people are being awarded 10,000 shares of MPOE.ETF. Among them are trolls who have been attacking me, however noticably absent are Puppet and EskimoBob as they have outstanding scammer threads which are under review. If I offered to do this mr. bear I assure you I have the resources. It is not a problem finding someone to do work like this, I assure you. This goes on in the real world all the time. Paid bashers. All the time. But I ask you; where are my employees? And who are my competitors? I am an insurance company. WTF? I'm the only one! Hot shit. EskimoBob OUTED himself on this one. It's so obvious. Right after "someone" offered to employ eskimobob (and a number of others probably), trolls start appearing and trashing my threads. Isn't it ironic that they would try and lay the blame on me. Only problem is, it doesn't make sense and actually points to them. What a pile of crap that is: Usagi, stop lying. You know that we had this conversation and you offered me that stupid troll job of yours to help you spam your competition. You also know, I told you No! I remembered another related conversation where you actually acknowledged our conversation: This was happening 2012-09-08 around noon UTC: Quote Chaang-Noi okay since i dont know anything im going to have a beer and smoke a cuban, best of luck with selling your secret info usagi EskimoBob usagi: For start I thought you are cool dude but after this priv chat we had and you offered ..., I am having really hard time trusting you. * usagi points out this is now the fourth time goat has been told that I don't have any info to sell and wouldn't sell it anyway :) mircea_popescu cigars and beer ? get out of the sticks. DeaDTerra YOU DON'T KNOW NOTHING MAN, YOUR A GOAT AND I AM SAILOR MOON. seriously guys go get a room, I am running out of funny comments here usagi EskimoBob I'm sorry Chaang-Noi <usagi> I'll sell you the info EskimoBob and this shit you have pulled today with "i have info but I can not tell" is childish and no wonder Chaang-Noi is crawling up your ares because of that :) EskimoBob bad time for jokes like that Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: guruvan on September 27, 2012, 02:25:13 PM This is what I am piecing together: 1. Around the time I put up my letter to shareholders on August 1st, Mircea and I have an argument on #bitcoin-assets where ciuciu and I call him out for not having an education. We did this because he was continuously slandering and berating Nefario for not having a financial education. Well it turns out that Mircea has no education at all (no post secondary education). 2. He puts me on ignore. 3. August 5th. Mircea contacts EskimoBob and possibly others, requesting that people create sock puppet accounts to discredit me on the forums. 4. Accounts are created in the 2nd and 3rd week of august -- particularly Puppet and Deprived. 5. Attacks begin before they're even out of the newbies forum. They literally leave the newbies forum, and head straight to the Securities forum and start trolling in my threads. 6. After a couple weeks I corner EskimoBob on IRC and he agrees to a contract, which he breaks, netting him a scammer tag accusation (currently under review by Maged). 7. In response to this, he posts logs of a conversation he had with SOMEONE, but with my name in place of whomever it was. 8. TWO DAYS LATER.... MPOE-PR announces that people are being awarded 10,000 shares of MPOE.ETF. Among them are trolls who have been attacking me, however noticably absent are Puppet and EskimoBob as they have outstanding scammer threads which are under review. If I offered to do this mr. bear I assure you I have the resources. It is not a problem finding someone to do work like this, I assure you. This goes on in the real world all the time. Paid bashers. All the time. But I ask you; where are my employees? And who are my competitors? I am an insurance company. WTF? I'm the only one! Hot shit. EskimoBob OUTED himself on this one. It's so obvious. Right after "someone" offered to employ eskimobob (and a number of others probably), trolls start appearing and trashing my threads. Isn't it ironic that they would try and lay the blame on me. Only problem is, it doesn't make sense and actually points to them. LOLZ. 1. And yet, he can still do math that works. He doesn't tell everyone they just don't get it after explaining his business in a way that makes sense3 to absolutely no one. He can tell me where the money is without having to resort to calling me names. Wish you could actually show us the money. Amazing how a man lacking formal education can be so much more financially, mathematically, and verbally skilled than 2 well educated people such as yourselves. Amazing 2. I bet he's not the only person who ignores you. It's not easy to ignore you, but it is a good idea. 3. Orly. You got proof that Mircea asked people to create puppet accounts? Mighty bold statement here. 4. Yes. And we're now supposed to expect to believe other facts you dig up. Quite wrong on deprived, so...you really do just print "facts" to support your case, whether they're tru or not...,kinda like your accounting. 5. haha. that's because you're such an inspiring character. 6. this just proves how useless and petty you truly are...in fact, all of your scammer accusations this week are proving this. 7. I's so sure that's not your in the conversation e/ EskimoBob. He has no reason to lie about you, nor do I. AFAICT you're the one with the reason to lie about most of this. 8. No, I'm quite sure not everyone on the list is trolling you. In fact, that list has little to do with you. Why don't you stop thinking that you're the center of the universe, come down to reality, and stop blowing smoke up our asses. That list is of the people on the forum calling bullshit on ALL the scams, not just your scams. Hey usagi - there's a difference between pointing out that your posts and accounting are based on unreality, falsehoods, and fiction, and actaul trolling. The difference is, you're trying to steal from your investors, and we're out here hoping that one or two have the sense to investigate for themselves. I'm not sure what you think your detractors' motivations are, but I can assure you - it's not competition (you're in a class alone, for a reason) - it's not to make money off manipulating stock prices. It's not to troll you mercilessly (though, that is starting to sound fun, but we'd have to dispense with all this financial mumbo jumbo that's so hard for you to understand. You think everyone here is stupid compared to yourself. It's not true. We're seeing through the smoke & mirrors you've put up, and we're calling bullshit on that - accounting cannot equate to smoke & mirrors. The primary use for smoke & mirrors in accounting is theft. This suggests to me that you're a thief that hasn't yet been caught. Mostly because no one has really looked into your finances too much. You try to pay someone to troll for you, then lie about it when you're caught, and then you have the gall to suggest we're trolling YOU? Again, disingenuous, at best....and outright lies at worst. Usagi, I'll say it.....there's not much truth that comes out of you. You're a habitual liar. Everyone is starting to see right through you usagi. Your desperation is obvious, scam accusations every couple days, no one can be right around you, everyone is too stupid to understand what you're saying or doing......HUGE red flags. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: Puppet on September 27, 2012, 02:58:48 PM Dear mods, all of guruvan's posts in this thread are off-topic. Please move them and all responses to them to the Scam Accusations thread. I actively encourage people to speak their minds -- in the right place. And this ain't it. Thank you moderators. Wait, so you think you can make libelous, baseless and off topic accusations in this thread, but the people you falsely accuse have no right to respond? Really? Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: EskimoBob on September 27, 2012, 08:12:20 PM Usagi, stop trolling your own threads.
You are caught pants down over and over.... and over again. Worst thing is, you have learned nothing. Stop lying to your investors and to yourself. Get your act together. It's beyond pathetic! BTW, I recommend you take the Accounting 101 in your local community college. And if they have, take some type of intro course to economics and investing. Make sure they include simple investment portfolio reporting. Or if this is way below you, spend some time with your favorite search engine. Honestly, this is ridiculous! You can not even list your holdings with out some type of bull shit sprinkled all over it. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: flower1024 on September 28, 2012, 06:15:02 AM if you want mods to move offtopic posts you should've said so in the first post (local thread rules).
Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: EskimoBob on September 28, 2012, 08:52:54 AM Usagi, stop trolling your own threads. You are caught pants down over and over.... and over again. Worst thing is, you have learned nothing. Stop lying to your investors and to yourself. Get your act together. It's beyond pathetic! BTW, I recommend you take the Accounting 101 in your local community college. And if they have, take some type of intro course to economics and investing. Make sure they include simple investment portfolio reporting. Or if this is way below you, spend some time with your favorite search engine. Honestly, this is ridiculous! You can not even list your holdings with out some type of bull shit sprinkled all over it. Dear mods, all of EskimoBob's posts in this thread are off-topic. Please move them and all responses to them to the Scam Accusations thread. I actively encourage people to speak their minds -- in the right place. And this ain't it. Thank you moderators. 1) Your statements are outdated and with prices that are incorrect. ("some type of bull shit sprinkled all over it") 2) You add stuff to "assets" like cost of transportation - wow, this is something new :) ( "Accounting 101") 3) You want to ban everyone who is not agreeing with you and has questions/comments about your shady "accounting" methods - ("most of my post") What is off-topic in my post? So, if still think you have something to whine about, please feel free to do it... but direct it to /dev/null Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: MPOE-PR on September 28, 2012, 10:20:07 AM Dear Maged,
All of usagi's posts are also offtopic (strangely enough). Please move the entire bunch in the Twilight Zone. I'll take over this thread and aggressively post bunnies. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: pyrkne on September 28, 2012, 07:42:35 PM Dear Maged, All of usagi's posts are also offtopic (strangely enough). Please move the entire bunch in the Twilight Zone. I'll take over this thread and aggressively post bunnies. Lol bunny derailment. ~pyotr Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: Deprived on September 29, 2012, 04:40:11 AM Motion (https://glbse.com/vote/view/148) passed by 100%. All of my shareholders are happy. Motion ID:148 Ticker symbol: BMF Expires:2012-09-28 Required to pass motion:0% Motion text This is an opinion poll with no actionable result. As a shareholder, are you satisfied with BMF's management style? Please carefully consider the performance of the fund, and the actions I have taken to protect shareholders including weekly letters to shareholders, full disclosure of assets and trading, motions 80 and 124, and the current daily dividends policy before answering. Thank you and have a nice day. Note: If you are at all unsatisfied with the performance of this fund, as a shareholder, please do not hesitate to contact us at bmf@tsukino.ca and maybe we can work together to resolve any problems you are experiencing. Thank you! Voting result % to pass motion: 0 Voted Yea:8148 Voted Nay:0 You control over 8000 shares now? Are there any other shareholders left at all? Joking aside, would assume that anyone who was dissatisifed would have sold out - and though they would't be too happy about losing a large of their investment they no longer have any means to vote. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: Deprived on September 29, 2012, 04:55:05 AM Oh - and how DID you get more yes votes than have EVER been in circulation? You didn't by some chance transfer unsold ones to yourself to vote with (then send them back) did you? I asked nefario about that particular nasty little trick a while back (by PM) but got no answer - so assume it IS possible for a company owner to generate as many yes votes on a motion as they like.
Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: Bitcoin Oz on September 29, 2012, 07:24:31 AM Oh - and how DID you get more yes votes than have EVER been in circulation? You didn't by some chance transfer unsold ones to yourself to vote with (then send them back) did you? I asked nefario about that particular nasty little trick a while back (by PM) but got no answer - so assume it IS possible for a company owner to generate as many yes votes on a motion as they like. Thats quite possible. I guess you wouldnt know without Nefario investigating. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: Puppet on September 29, 2012, 08:39:03 AM So there are 8000 shares, that puts the nav at 0.19.
Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: MPOE-PR on September 29, 2012, 03:49:11 PM So there are 8000 shares, that puts the nav at 0.19. Stop lying and trolling and demonizing usagi. These are voting shares not dividend shares. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: Puppet on September 29, 2012, 04:46:43 PM So there are 8000 shares, that puts the nav at 0.19. Stop lying and trolling and demonizing usagi. These are voting shares not dividend shares. Probably. I guess they also have a negative NAV so that his books make sense. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: Ilikeham on September 29, 2012, 08:26:27 PM Usagi ----- you need to learn to just post the corps business and ignore the trolls, this thread is useless, I am unwilling to wade through pukepets nonsense.
what the hell the is going on? who cares what they think? Money talks, bullshit walks. the trolls walk. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: Puppet on September 29, 2012, 08:32:20 PM what the hell the is going on? who cares what they think? Money talks, bullshit walks. Hows your bitcoinmax account ..talking?? Quote the trolls walk. No the scammers walk. They walk away with your coins. Title: Re: [CPA] [NYAN] [BMF] Aggressive Buyback Plan -- UPDATED Sept. 26th, 2012 Post by: pyrkne on September 30, 2012, 02:06:07 AM you need to learn to just post the corps business and ignore the trolls Definite agree. |
