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Title: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: dnaleor on August 20, 2015, 01:32:45 PM if the current Block size drama is learning us at least one thing, then it's the fact that we need a hedge for our BTC investments. It's unsafe to keep all our eggs in the same basket, so diversifying is key, but where?
Let's look at what are -in my opinion- the desirable properties of a hedge in the cryptocurrency space: * Not "the same" as bitcoin, so no copycoins with the same codebase. Why? Because these coins have the same problems as BTC, in the long run. Remember: we are looking for a hedge, so something for the long term. We aren't gambling. Riding an LTC pump is fine, but by "investing" in LTC, you aren't hedging, you are speculating. This rules out a lot of coins, for example LTC and DOGE (and 90% of the other altcoins). I know, most of these coins use scrypt, but that is about the only difference. And you should note that there are already ASICs for scrypt, so not much diffrerence between BTC and these scrypt coins. *the hedge needs features that can't be implemented in BTC, in the long run. Why? Because bitcoin has undoubtedly the first mover advantage. If a coin has a good feature, but that feature can be copied and just added to BTC, then it's not a good hedge. I would avoid "appcoins". Also, when bitcoin becomes larger and larger, it will become harder and harder to change the base protocol. people will need to build things on BTC ("bitcoin 2.0") or connect things to BTC (sidechains). If changing a parameter from 1 to 8 is such a drama, then I don't think it is likely that a lot of fundamental changes can still be made to the bitcoin base protocol. bitcoin is ossifying... This rules out a bunch of appcoins like maidsafe, ethereum, bitshares, dash and counterparty and NXT. Counterparty: I never understood why we need the token XCP. I think this can be done on BTC (even without a sidechain I think) Dash: is just a coinjoin implementation, that already exists on BTC. the "incentivized node idea" is decent, but flawed because not anonymous. Besides that, I never understood why a "masternode" needs to hold a certain amount of coins. Why just not reward all the active nodes? Ethereum: I could imagine that a sidechain with ethereum features is perfectly possible. Bitshares: Also possible on sidechains/colored coins Maidsafe: I think a sidechain for storage is also possible. NXT: All features can go on a sidechain, without a doubt, but this coin uses PoS, so I don't rule it out completely. *fair launch, no shenanigans, decent (real) volume and "decentralized nature" why? Crypto land isn't a playground. We need to raise our level a bit. If we want serious money to invest in our crypto scene, we need to be serious ourselves and don't jump on every new shitcoin that is premined and act if it were the new gold and dump it a few weeks later... This rules out coins like Dash (again), Ripple/Stellar and bytecoin Dash: massive instamine in the first 24 hours of the coins existence (2 million coins) Ripple/Stellar: a coin that isn't decentralized at all. The banks will maybe fork it for their own internal ledgers, there is no need for the coin itself. Bytecoin: massive 80% stealth/instamine and fake volume on HitBTC --- So which coins remain that also have a decent volume and market cap? NXT, Peercoin, Namecoin and Monero NXT: I'm was on the fence about this coin, but since I've read this paper by Andrew Poelstra about the flaws in PoS I'm less convinced: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf Peercoin: this is a good hedge against a flaw in PoW because it also has PoS combined with PoW. Seems a more secure solution AND it has the first mover advantage in the PoS space. But it doesn't offer anything else. And theoretically PoS could be implemented in BTC if needed (although unlikely). Namecoin: This is based on the bitcoin codebase, but why do I include it in the "shortlist"? Well, I don't think a new decentralized naming system is fair, because that would render all registered domains on namecoin useless and invalid. However, I don't think it's a good hedge, because it's really a niche currency and has the same codebase as BTC. Monero: this coin offers something that is very unlikely to be implemented in BTC: anonymous transactions and fungible coins through the unique combination of ring signatures and stealth addresses. Anonimity can be reached to a certain degree on the bitcoin network, but not fungibility. A good functioning money system needs to be fungible. I suggest you check out this video for more information about the tech behind this coin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEVm1dMn5Ks Also, this coin has a small perpetual block reward, making this coin a hedge against possible problems in a fee market. I have doubts a fee market can function, so a small perpetual block reward solves this. Also, this makes the coin more fair for people who adopt this coin in the future. In 20 years time people will look at BTC and maybe think it's a scam because most of the coins will be mined. they will need to "buy in" the project of others. Monero won't suffer from this, or at least to a lesser extent. It also has a different cryptographic curve than BTC, so this is an additional hedge And it has a dynamic block size limit. No discussions about hard forking here... --- So, here is my overview of coins. As you can probably see, I lean towards using Monero as a hedge. I think it fits perfectly. Also investing a bit in NMC, PPC and maybe NXT seems reasonable. What are your thoughts? :) edit: willing to change this post with your feedback. Will try to provide some links to document claims. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: canth on August 20, 2015, 01:43:09 PM Ethereum and Monero would be my vote. I hold a small amount of each, so I'm biased but then again why wouldn't I hold what I recommend?
Ethereum: Sure, it's possible to incorporate smart contracts and other features on top of bitcoin via counterparty and the like. However, since ETH has such a smaller user base and very centralized development process, speed of development will be much quicker over the next 1-2 years while it matures. Anything more than 1-2 years out is too far, but I think that is a reasonable time frame to look at. Monero: Similar to the above, Monero has a very targeted approach to privacy, fungibility and secrecy. It does a good job of covering all needs whether that of dark/grey markets or that of a law abiding storefronts since transactions can easily be revealed with view keys. I don't see Bitcoin gaining these features in any sort of useable fashion for at least 2 years since they'd need to be built into a sidechain first. Sidechains won't be fully trusted until the federated model can be removed and this may take even longer than 2 years, although I rather hope that it won't take this long. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: KhalDrago on August 20, 2015, 01:48:48 PM perfect hedge is fiat, you can make btc anonymous already without using monero, dash or other 'anon' coins.
Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: canth on August 20, 2015, 02:00:26 PM perfect hedge is fiat, you can make btc anonymous already without using monero, dash or other 'anon' coins. I don't agree with this at all. While mined coins are pretty damned anon, everything else really isn't. You'd have to buy and sell with cash, use VPN for all of your traffic, make sure to not reuse addresses or join addresses for large spends, etc. The average user isn't going to do that - they need an out of the box toolset that utilizes coinjoin/stealth addresses/etc. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: dnaleor on August 20, 2015, 02:09:55 PM Ethereum and Monero would be my vote. I hold a small amount of each, so I'm biased but then again why wouldn't I hold what I recommend? Ethereum: Sure, it's possible to incorporate smart contracts and other features on top of bitcoin via counterparty and the like. However, since ETH has such a smaller user base and very centralized development process, speed of development will be much quicker over the next 1-2 years while it matures. Anything more than 1-2 years out is too far, but I think that is a reasonable time frame to look at. Monero: Similar to the above, Monero has a very targeted approach to privacy, fungibility and secrecy. It does a good job of covering all needs whether that of dark/grey markets or that of a law abiding storefronts since transactions can easily be revealed with view keys. I don't see Bitcoin gaining these features in any sort of useable fashion for at least 2 years since they'd need to be built into a sidechain first. Sidechains won't be fully trusted until the federated model can be removed and this may take even longer than 2 years, although I rather hope that it won't take this long. thanks for your input. Yes, maybe you are right about ethereum and I need to revisit my position. It has a different codebase, so that's a plus also :) About XMR and sidechains, that won't work because you will only have the anonimity, but not the fungibility. I posted about this a few months ago: Gregory Maxwell is working on something called "Confidential Transactions" which will add privacy to bitcoin using "Pederson commitments" (proposed by Adam Back in 2013). https://people.xiph.org/~greg/confidential_values.txt Everyone should keep an eye on this. I don't know all the technical details of his proposal, but just think theoretically here: A sidechain which works perfectly like Monero is introduced, what are the consequences? (1) people who send BTC in the "ring signature sidechain" (RSSC), taint their BTC who are not entering the RSSC. If their identity is matched with the same identity as who put BTC in the RSSC, this person can become "flagged". (2) people can transact within the RSSC anonymously. This has value. (The same value as transacting in XMR). (3) people who want to get their BTC out of the RSSC, immediately taint those BTC. It's even easier to taint these BTC than BTC put through a mixer or using coinjoin because you don't need to do extensive chainalysis. If/when regulation starts to come down on payment processors and/or miners (see my reddit post about fungibility (http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/374ss5/the_problem_with_bitcoin_that_everyone_seems_to/) for more info on the risks of tainting your BTC), these BTC's will be hard to spend in the 'regular economy' or even transact with. People probably want to avoid (3) happening, so they keep their BTC in the RSSC. But this has disadvantages too, your BTC are locked in this particular sidechain! If another (better) sidechain comes out, you can't migrate them (or maybe you can, don't know if the sidechain proposal allows settlement directly on another sidechain or not). Also, if miners and/or nodes stop supporting the 'obfuscation sidechains' like RSSC (assuming they even wanted to touch them in the first place), you can't even use the transaction system (2) and your BTC became worthless in an unsupported sidechain. Why risk all that and not just buy XMR? you can always dump them if the market is starting to switch towards another (better) anon cryptocoin? Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: canth on August 20, 2015, 08:08:21 PM Ethereum and Monero would be my vote. I hold a small amount of each, so I'm biased but then again why wouldn't I hold what I recommend? Ethereum: Sure, it's possible to incorporate smart contracts and other features on top of bitcoin via counterparty and the like. However, since ETH has such a smaller user base and very centralized development process, speed of development will be much quicker over the next 1-2 years while it matures. Anything more than 1-2 years out is too far, but I think that is a reasonable time frame to look at. Monero: Similar to the above, Monero has a very targeted approach to privacy, fungibility and secrecy. It does a good job of covering all needs whether that of dark/grey markets or that of a law abiding storefronts since transactions can easily be revealed with view keys. I don't see Bitcoin gaining these features in any sort of useable fashion for at least 2 years since they'd need to be built into a sidechain first. Sidechains won't be fully trusted until the federated model can be removed and this may take even longer than 2 years, although I rather hope that it won't take this long. thanks for your input. Yes, maybe you are right about ethereum and I need to revisit my position. It has a different codebase, so that's a plus also :) About XMR and sidechains, that won't work because you will only have the anonimity, but not the fungibility. I posted about this a few months ago: Gregory Maxwell is working on something called "Confidential Transactions" which will add privacy to bitcoin using "Pederson commitments" (proposed by Adam Back in 2013). https://people.xiph.org/~greg/confidential_values.txt Everyone should keep an eye on this. I don't know all the technical details of his proposal, but just think theoretically here: A sidechain which works perfectly like Monero is introduced, what are the consequences? (1) people who send BTC in the "ring signature sidechain" (RSSC), taint their BTC who are not entering the RSSC. If their identity is matched with the same identity as who put BTC in the RSSC, this person can become "flagged". (2) people can transact within the RSSC anonymously. This has value. (The same value as transacting in XMR). (3) people who want to get their BTC out of the RSSC, immediately taint those BTC. It's even easier to taint these BTC than BTC put through a mixer or using coinjoin because you don't need to do extensive chainalysis. If/when regulation starts to come down on payment processors and/or miners (see my reddit post about fungibility (http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/374ss5/the_problem_with_bitcoin_that_everyone_seems_to/) for more info on the risks of tainting your BTC), these BTC's will be hard to spend in the 'regular economy' or even transact with. People probably want to avoid (3) happening, so they keep their BTC in the RSSC. But this has disadvantages too, your BTC are locked in this particular sidechain! If another (better) sidechain comes out, you can't migrate them (or maybe you can, don't know if the sidechain proposal allows settlement directly on another sidechain or not). Also, if miners and/or nodes stop supporting the 'obfuscation sidechains' like RSSC (assuming they even wanted to touch them in the first place), you can't even use the transaction system (2) and your BTC became worthless in an unsupported sidechain. Why risk all that and not just buy XMR? you can always dump them if the market is starting to switch towards another (better) anon cryptocoin? I agree with this analysis. I'd say that the only way that the sidechains anon/privacy features end up being useful is if the value stays in the sidechain as you've suggested. Perhaps there will be shapeshift style services that allow for spends between BTC and RSSC. Either way, I'm not terribly concerned since I don't see sidechains as anything besides a technology proving ground the forseeable future. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: stoat on August 20, 2015, 08:18:51 PM Probably ethereum. It's the only major crypto that didn't nosedive when Btc had a flash crash the other day.
Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: dnaleor on August 20, 2015, 09:49:55 PM Probably ethereum. It's the only major crypto that didn't nosedive when Btc had a flash crash the other day. monero is also up ;) Quote I agree with this analysis. I'd say that the only way that the sidechains anon/privacy features end up being useful is if the value stays in the sidechain as you've suggested. Perhaps there will be shapeshift style services that allow for spends between BTC and RSSC. Either way, I'm not terribly concerned since I don't see sidechains as anything besides a technology proving ground the forseeable future. Those services will be suject to money laundering laws. Ok, still possible of the owners are anonymous, but the coins will be flagged on the BTC network... It is an interesting situation, no doubt about that also, consider if miners will run a RSSC-node. I think if that is made illegal, a lot of miners won't run an node that enables anonymizing. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: stoat on August 20, 2015, 10:14:35 PM But Monero doesn't have a future
Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: NextGenCrypto on August 20, 2015, 10:19:12 PM I think this is nothing but another Monero fanboy post cluttering up this forum.
When are you girls going to give up? Stop kicking the dead horse. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: canth on August 21, 2015, 02:38:40 AM I think this is nothing but another Monero fanboy post cluttering up this forum. When are you girls going to give up? Stop kicking the dead horse. You should short XMR - poloniex is offering this. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: generalizethis on August 21, 2015, 03:05:06 AM I think this is nothing but another Monero fanboy post cluttering up this forum. When are you girls going to give up? Stop kicking the dead horse. Dead horse is testing DB and has a game* releasing next week. Your move, hater. :) *A cyber economy with VR storefronts and property would be a more precise description. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: farl4web on August 21, 2015, 09:00:47 AM I think Nxt is really a big for the longterm future. A lot of great updates are added all the time. The most innovative crypto around. Check nxtforum.org to learn about the features which will be implemented in version 1.6, 1.7 and 1.8. Really exciting times. The rest in crypto is kind of boring.
Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: HCLivess on August 21, 2015, 09:13:30 AM hedge? what do you mean? if you mean USD, you should buy nubits, tether
Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: habraken on August 21, 2015, 09:20:06 AM The succes of a platform like NXT does not depend on the value of its tokens, the 'coins'.
It's silly to compare coins to platforms. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: jabo38 on August 21, 2015, 09:25:48 AM NEM has a lot of really interesting development and isn't plagued by much of the problems you listed above except low market cap and low volume as it is still a young platform.
Features - NEM is built 100% from scratch (not a fork of any existing project) - NEM is built with test-driven development - NEM uses innovative Proof-of-Importance algorithm: first reputation based blockchain algorythm - NEM improves different features of POW and POS coins, being more efficient and environmentally friendly - NEM one minute average block times - NEM is the first crypto with delegated harvesting - NEM is the first with localized spam protection - NEM is the first with Eigentrust++ peer reputation management - NEM is the first editable m-of-n multisig with blockchain based alerts - NEM offers encrypted, unencrypted and hex messaging - NEM is easy to install with a one click installer - NEM zero inflation (fixed supply, all 9 billion coins released at launch). - NEM relatively large egalitarian distribution - NEM will offer a mobile wallet for both iOS and Android (coming soon) http://s25.postimg.org/6hytfe7nz/NEMpoints_v4.png http://s25.postimg.org/n709bb49b/NEMpoivspos_v2.png Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: xchrix on August 21, 2015, 09:29:17 AM NXT is my choice! just because you have to own NXT to use the platform features
Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: HCLivess on August 21, 2015, 09:39:59 AM proof of importance is the biggest bullshit scam ever invented. ¨
also, the Poelstra PoS criticism is deranged Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: sofu on August 21, 2015, 09:49:28 AM I like NXT and still hodl a nice bag but the price is going south only. Why should I buy assets with NXT when I know my assets are less worth in some weeks because of the NXT permdumps?
Unfortunately all altcoins failed in creating a liquid and healthy altcoin/fiat market. I guess if BTC dies, all altcoins will die with it. Best way to hedge is probably holding Fiat and wait for the next BTC flash crash Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: RaginglikeaBoss on August 21, 2015, 10:05:52 AM Fiat is the safest hedge if you're scared of Bitcoin.
Use it to buy some land. Problem solved. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: jabo38 on August 21, 2015, 11:15:44 AM proof of importance is the biggest bullshit scam ever invented. ¨ PoI is one of the most complicated consensus mechanisms in crypto created by real published academics. Stellar also has real academics working on their consensus mechanism, but it works in a completely different way so it is hard to compare. http://s25.postimg.org/a9ihvxxzj/POI_formula.png For an in depth explanation you can read the technical report in chapter 7. http://nem.io/NEM_techRef.pdf Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: Snail2 on August 21, 2015, 11:51:40 AM If it's about hedging then I also vote for fiat (namely USD). A BTC collapse most likely will drag down all cryptoes to rock bottom. So USD is far from perfect (or even from good), but USD is still the most stable alternative. One more thing. At the bottom with USD I can buy back shitloads of all sorts of coins...
Damn! I never thought that I'll pump USD, but here we go :D. I hope the core devs, Hearn and Gavin will rot in hell for this. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: wpalczynski on August 21, 2015, 12:16:22 PM If it's about hedging then I also vote for fiat (namely USD). A BTC collapse most likely will drag down all cryptoes to rock bottom. So USD is far from perfect (or even from good), but USD is still the most stable alternative. One more thing. At the bottom with USD I can buy back shitloads of all sorts of coins... Damn! I never thought that I'll pump USD, but here we go :D. I hope the core devs, Hearn and Gavin will rot in hell for this. The dollar has been strong and your argument hold some water however by being out of crypto totally you risk missing out on possible exponential growth when the crypto bear market is finally over. If BTC starts rocketing upwards again the better ALTS will do so as well and likely gain significantly against BTC. OTOH if the bear market is still in tact you could make significant gains in crypto terms by being in fiat. Its been such a prolonged bear market and given the market behavior of the last few months I think we are going up from here. And if that blocksize issue is resolved we could CCMF really fast. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: Snail2 on August 21, 2015, 12:55:01 PM The dollar has been strong and your argument hold some water however by being out of crypto totally you risk missing out on possible exponential growth when the crypto bear market is finally over. If BTC starts rocketing upwards again the better ALTS will do so as well and likely gain significantly against BTC. OTOH if the bear market is still in tact you could make significant gains in crypto terms by being in fiat. Its been such a prolonged bear market and given the market behavior of the last few months I think we are going up from here. And if that blocksize issue is resolved we could CCMF really fast. That's why I said "At the bottom with USD I can buy back shitloads of all sorts of coins..." I think there are two "problems" with crypto: 1. There are no crypto what would be "pegged" to some real life stuff what have some real importance. Without such independent economy practically everything pegged to bitcoin. 2. A very large percent of the people in crypto aren't here for tecnology or for some libertarian dreams, maybe for freedom from the banks, but strictly for financial gains, and their thinking is "pegged" to fiat. Because of 1. if bitcoin goes down everything will go down (no exception) and because of 2. a lot of people going to panic sell as fast as they can therefore causing an even bigger trouble. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: monsterer on August 21, 2015, 01:31:58 PM 1. There are no crypto what would be "pegged" to some real life stuff what have some real importance. Without such independent economy practically everything pegged to bitcoin. Bitshares has pegged fiat currencies, even has gold, silver and nasdaq composite indices: http://www.bitsharesblocks.com/assets/market nuBits is also pegged to USD. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: Snail2 on August 21, 2015, 02:40:41 PM Bitshares has pegged fiat currencies, even has gold, silver and nasdaq composite indices: http://www.bitsharesblocks.com/assets/market nuBits is also pegged to USD. Well, that's true. We will see (hopefully not) how these coins are doing during a bitcoin collapse :). But I guess a general distrust towards cryptoes will have some effect even on the most stable coins. Actually I'm really curious. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: Mickeyb on August 21, 2015, 02:46:09 PM NXT would be my pick. These guys deserve a chance for all the innovation and hard work.
Also the old Nothing at Stake claims that are based on maybe 2 papers are just pure FUD and proven wrong! No worries here! Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: Isildur23 on August 21, 2015, 03:08:55 PM Nxt is the most successful one and it has brought so much innovations in the crypto world that it is a question of time to see that reflection in the price.
Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: riceberry on August 21, 2015, 05:19:00 PM Nxt get's my vote as well, most innovative tech coin out there right now.
Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: gentlemand on August 21, 2015, 07:11:38 PM None of the above. If BTC goes tits up then I'll wait for a self developing coin run by a bot so it's immune to politics, tribalism, greed and corruption.
Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: sidhujag on August 21, 2015, 07:14:19 PM Ethereum has a bit of static inflation, which is good for long term, but bad for short term, i'd pick an Asset inside of ethereum which serves as a good revenue generating DApp and hold that. I'd also hold some bitshares.
Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: sidhujag on August 21, 2015, 07:16:29 PM proof of importance is the biggest bullshit scam ever invented. ¨ PoI is one of the most complicated consensus mechanisms in crypto created by real published academics. Stellar also has real academics working on their consensus mechanism, but it works in a completely different way so it is hard to compare. http://s25.postimg.org/a9ihvxxzj/POI_formula.png For an in depth explanation you can read the technical report in chapter 7. http://nem.io/NEM_techRef.pdf Oh cool a teleport matrix.. I didn't think StarTrek technology was out and ready to use for us average joe's already?! Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: I am the guy on August 21, 2015, 11:11:03 PM Practically speaking, my choice would be Nubits or Tether or both. However from a technical approach I'd go with VNL.
Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: kelsey on August 22, 2015, 02:47:47 AM litecoin, because bitcoin can take all the hits and gives litecoin the early heads up on whats coming and how to improve before it becomes a problem.
Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: DecentralizeEconomics on August 22, 2015, 04:42:38 AM litecoin, because bitcoin can take all the hits and gives litecoin the early heads up on whats coming and how to improve before it becomes a problem. Litecoin is PoW and any PoW coin will centralize just like Bitcoin. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: kingscrown on August 22, 2015, 04:51:55 AM some people just run with trading groups (like mine in signature *sigh*) and do the "hedge funds" this way ;)
more secure than just giving money to other people to invest more work than just giving money to other people to invest Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: jabo38 on August 22, 2015, 06:55:47 PM Oh cool a teleport matrix.. I didn't think StarTrek technology was out and ready to use for us average joe's already?! NEM difficulty = StarTrek level. hahaha Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: forevernoob on August 22, 2015, 10:45:52 PM Funny how everyone is talking about fiat.. Wouldn't Silver & Gold be a better option?
I thought most people invested in cryptos to avoid inflation. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: JBC on August 22, 2015, 11:28:29 PM Funny how everyone is talking about fiat.. Wouldn't Silver & Gold be a better option? I thought most people invested in cryptos to avoid inflation. "Investing into crypto to avoid inflation" *Buys Bitcoin* *Does not realize it has over 8% inflation a year and there's still 6-7 million coins coming out* :D Bitcoin has more inflation than currencies in developed first world countries. https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-price-90-users-want-higher/ 90% of Bitcoiners want the price to be higher. A good example of Stockholm Syndrome is where these same 90% of users will continue to support inflationary PoW. Yet it is this inflationary PoW which creates a downward pressure on Bitcoin's price! The user base does not know about alternative mechanisms. The only non-inflationary crypto that was in the top 10 was NXT. "Why didn't NXT go to the moon, then?". Just because you don't have inflation doesn't not mean you can ignore the network effect. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: kenbytes on August 22, 2015, 11:30:41 PM perfect hedge is fiat i think 8)
Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: forevernoob on August 22, 2015, 11:41:19 PM "Investing into crypto to avoid inflation" *Buys Bitcoin* *Does not realize it has over 8% inflation a year and there's still 6-7 million coins coming out* :D Bitcoin has more inflation than currencies in developed first world countries. https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-price-90-users-want-higher/ 90% of Bitcoiners want the price to be higher. A good example of Stockholm Syndrome is where these same 90% of users will continue to support inflationary PoW. Yet it is this inflationary PoW which creates a downward pressure on Bitcoin's price! The user base does not know about alternative mechanisms. The only non-inflationary crypto that was in the top 10 was NXT. "Why didn't NXT go to the moon, then?". Just because you don't have inflation doesn't not mean you can ignore the network effect. Yes but the inflation drops after a while. And with bitcoin we know exactly when it decreases and stops completely. So it's not like FIAT which can be printed whenever they decide to. With that said I believe USD is winning the currency war so it might be a good investment but I don't see how it's better than Gold and Silver? Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: TPTB_need_war on August 23, 2015, 12:48:57 AM also, the Poelstra PoS criticism is deranged Vitalik Buterin provided a strong counter argument. But regardless of whether PoS has more gameable entropy or not, for sure PoW can distribute new coins (and redistribute existing wealth...a necessary requirement of all money since dawn of mankind) and PoS can not. Why necessary to redistribute money (at slow rates of debasement)? Because otherwise the macroeconomic incentives to invest with risk to produce more instead of save in deflation are not balanced. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: Undermood on August 23, 2015, 01:34:47 AM I think the perfect hedge is to diversify your investment to avoid the potential risk. I would recommend to split your investment to btc / whatever coins you like, dollar, gold/silver.
Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: habraken on August 23, 2015, 08:22:21 AM also, the Poelstra PoS criticism is deranged Vitalik Buterin provided a strong counter argument. But regardless of whether PoS has more gameable entropy or not, for sure PoW can distribute new coins (and redistribute existing wealth...a necessary requirement of all money since dawn of mankind) and PoS can not. Why necessary to redistribute money (at slow rates of debasement)? Because otherwise the macroeconomic incentives to invest with risk to produce more instead of save in deflation are not balanced. In NXT the 'forging' (mining PoS) where you receive the transaction fees in a block, is just for helping secure the network, not as a source of new wealth. The low value of the coins (tokens) you receive is hardly enough to pay for electricity (yes, even when it runs on a Raspberry Pi) :D If NXT whales really want to actively increase their wealth, they'd do better to invest in projects (=risk), buy and trade NXT assets (=risk). Just leaving their NXT in the account forging doesn't do much for them. So PoS isn't relevant for wealth imo when it's like this. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: JBC on August 23, 2015, 10:14:20 AM also, the Poelstra PoS criticism is deranged Vitalik Buterin provided a strong counter argument. But regardless of whether PoS has more gameable entropy or not, for sure PoW can distribute new coins (and redistribute existing wealth...a necessary requirement of all money since dawn of mankind) and PoS can not. Why necessary to redistribute money (at slow rates of debasement)? Because otherwise the macroeconomic incentives to invest with risk to produce more instead of save in deflation are not balanced. In NXT the 'forging' (mining PoS) where you receive the transaction fees in a block, is just for helping secure the network, not as a source of new wealth. The low value of the coins (tokens) you receive is hardly enough to pay for electricity (yes, even when it runs on a Raspberry Pi) :D If NXT whales really want to actively increase their wealth, they'd do better to invest in projects (=risk), buy and trade NXT assets (=risk). Just leaving their NXT in the account forging doesn't do much for them. So PoS isn't relevant for wealth imo when it's like this. If stimulus spending is guaranteed to boost NXT then why don't Bitcoin whales like Roger Ver give away their millions or fund huge advertising events? "$10,000 Bitcoin here we come!". Instead the Bitcoin millionaires can't even be bothered to spend $79.99 on a decent HD webcam.. :D Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: BitcoinNational on August 23, 2015, 11:11:01 AM Quote "Namecoin: This is based on the bitcoin codebase, but why do I include it in the "shortlist"? Well, I don't think a new decentralized naming system is fair, because that would render all registered domains on namecoin useless and invalid. However, I don't think it's a good hedge, because it's really a niche currency and has the same codebase as BTC." then UNO meets your qualifications like Name it is merge mined on the bitcoin network and in case of bitcoin market crash causes high difficulty high mining cost (feed back loop) Name and Uno might just drive the bitcoin network in such an event The kicker over Name coin is that UNO only inflates the money base at 7 coins per day ... name coin is just on it's first half, no? This means UNO favors investors over miners, super low inflation. Where bitcoin is designed to be a currency (inflation needed) - UNO was designed to be a store of value and functions like a POS model but no staking required and secured by bitcoin network hash power. Also, as far as I know, NMC still can not be redeemed for a domain name? So the business model seems to have been gunked up by mis-management. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: shanem on August 23, 2015, 01:25:18 PM There is no hedge for bitcoins unless you are storing your money outside cryptocurrency.
When bitcoin drops, all other altcoins will follow suit. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: masterOfDisaster on August 24, 2015, 08:00:12 PM Bitshares has pegged fiat currencies, even has gold, silver and nasdaq composite indices: http://www.bitsharesblocks.com/assets/market nuBits is also pegged to USD. Well, that's true. We will see (hopefully not) how these coins are doing during a bitcoin collapse :). But I guess a general distrust towards cryptoes will have some effect even on the most stable coins. Actually I'm really curious. Both provide a peg to the USD and in difference to e.g. Tether there's no single point that can be attacked (like collateral held in USD). I'm too lazy to look up how coinoUSD works :) Fiat is a good hedge, but can't easily be withdrawn from exchanges. Would you want to leave money at exchanges for longer than necessary after all these exchange hacks and defaults? Use bitUSD or NBT instead and withdraw them to your wallet! Speaking of bitUSD and NuBits - both are products of decentralized corporations. It's something different from a "coin" you buy today hoping you can sell it for more money in the future. The corporations will earn their owners money if they run well and generate revenue. The owners of these corporations are able to have a say. At Bitshares delegates are elected, at Nubits people continuously vote with their shares (or register feeds if they don't want to follow development closely). If it wasn't too late to buy shares, I'd recommend "Blocks & Chains Exchange (https://bcexchange.org)" as well - another decentralized corporation that has recently completed funding. A kind of high risk venture capital operation (at the moment). But as the funding is over you need to try to buy shares at exchanges (e.g. here: https://www.ccedk.com/nbt-bks but there's not much of a market. Almost nobody wants to sell :) ) Peercoin (http://peercoin.net) is another lottery ticket like Bitcoin, but in a way more sustainable way. It has a hybrid process and PoS secures the blockchain; this consumes so little energy it doesn't play a role. You can run it on a RaspberryPi1! Once the Bitcoin price plummets, the security risk for Bitcoin gets bigger and bigger. The rationale for that is here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2s8qge/its_happening/cnndc36 This risk doesn't exist for the Peercoin network. If anything is close to "digital gold" it's Peercoin: hard to mine it (via PoW), easy to secure it (via PoS). Why not Slimcoin (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1141676.msg12038461#msg12038461) (the inventor of Proof-of-Stake to secure a blockchain) or Emercoin (http://emercoin.com) (similar to Namecoin, but based on PoS instead of PoW)? There's so much more that is long in the wild than just Ethereum which yet has to prove that it can do what it was designed for... There is no hedge for bitcoins unless you are storing your money outside cryptocurrency. Not true for the coins pegged to USD (bitUSD, coinoUSD, NuBits, TetherUSD) ;)When bitcoin drops, all other altcoins will follow suit. [...] Where bitcoin is designed to be a currency (inflation needed) - UNO was designed to be a store of value and functions like a POS model but no staking required and secured by bitcoin network hash power. [...] A currency with no way to inflate AND deflate supply has a bad design. It might work as a means to transfer value, but never as currency - unless you don't care for fluctuations by two digit percentages on bad days ;) And as store of value Bitcoin is too expensive (thanks to the PoW arms race) and unfortunately UNO depends on Bitcoin due to merged mining. Thanks, but no thanks. If you look for a store of value, try the PoS pioneer Peercoin which can be sustained by RaspberryPis ;) Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: Sentinelrv on August 24, 2015, 08:20:44 PM Peercoin: this is a good hedge against a flaw in PoW because it also has PoS combined with PoW. Seems a more secure solution AND it has the first mover advantage in the PoS space. But it doesn't offer anything else. And theoretically PoS could be implemented in BTC if needed (although unlikely). It seems many people believe Peercoin is simply a PoS clone of Bitcoin, but they couldn't be more wrong. Sunny King designed Peercoin with a different purpose or role than Bitcoin. I'd like to talk about this aspect of Peercoin's philosophy that I think many Bitcoiners don't realize, but first I'm going to post some quotes from a couple days ago about the block size debate, one of them from Bitcoin Core Developer Gregory Maxwell... Do we want it to handle all world daily transactions, If we achieve the second, we can have both. But if we only achieve the first, we likely cannot have the second (and wouldn't find it to be a substantial improvement over the fiat systems we have now, even if).or do we want protection from current monetary systems and government involvement? The reason for this is that if Bitcoin is secure and trustworthy, trustless decenteralized micropayment facilities can be built on top of it and extend Bitcoin's transaction security with arbritary speed or scale. But if the system is fragle and underminable by attackers (government or otherwise) then it won't be robust enough to underpin these things. (and things like micropayment channels were't my invention, they were recommended by the system's creator-- thats part of why Bitcoin has smart contracts to begin with.) whats interesting is Peercoin Achieves the second, now by design. It heads of the whole Block size issue by going for the backbone, which is now becoming the problem for BTC as it tries to be 1 and 2, without being 2 first. It seems that something like peercoin will take the lions share of large value transactions and BTC is falling into the middle of not being doge Ie doge can handle a high TPS at sacrifice of security [but who cares when your buying an ice cream and dont get hit up huge credit card fees], and not being good as a backbone. Dont get me wrong I am a hardened BTC supporter, its just the boundary conditions do not support backbone currecy as well as Peercoin and so a debated like this rages. I have being saying this for some time now, and it has come to fruition. Just in case anyone is not clear on what Jubalix is saying here, Sunny King coined the term "backbone currency" in an interview on October 24th, 2013 where he laid out his vision for Peercoin and explained why he designed it the way he did. In his quote, Gregory Maxwell is describing Bitcoin as a backbone currency when Sunny King designed Peercoin to fulfill this exact role. Here is Sunny's main quote on this topic... https://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=2218.0 Quote from: Sunny King "Both PPC and XPM are designed to last. PPC is designed with energy efficiency, XPM is designed with energy multiuse. Bitcoin has a long term uncertainty as to whether transaction fees can sustain good enough level of security. Before that the main concern is how to balance transaction volume and transaction fee levels. Currently I get the feeling that bitcoin developers favor very low transaction fees and very high transaction volume, to be competitive against centralized systems (paypal, visa, mastercard etc) in terms of transaction volume, to the point of sacrificing decentralization. This also brings major uncertainties to bitcoin's future. From my point of view, I think the cryptocurrency movement needs at least one 'backbone' currency, or more, that maintains high degree of decentralization, maintains high level of security, but not necessarily providing high volume of transactions. Thinking of savings accounts and gold coins, you don't transact them at high velocity but they form the backbone of the monetary systems. Pure proof-of-work systems such as bitcoin is not 100% suitable for this task. This is because transaction fee is not a reliable incentive to sustain network security. If the mining generation amount is kept constant (there have been several such attempts in altcoins) it would work better security-wise but then it would also significantly weaken the scarcity property of the currency. XPM's inflation model is designed in such a way that it could serve as backbone currency better than bitcoin if needed, because it could maintain high security reliably for longer, with reasonably good scarcity property as well. Of course that's only from architect's point of view, whether or not it would be chosen by the market is a whole different matter. PPC is designed to serve even better as a backbone currency. The proof-of-stake technology in PPC is not only energy efficient; it also maintains high level of security without relying on transaction fee. Thus PPC could be safely designed with strong scarcity property yet serving well as backbone currency. Both PPC and XPM use protocol enforced transaction fees, which reflects my preference that high transaction volume is discouraged in favor of serving as backbone currencies. Right now if we are talking about micropayments in the US$1 range, both PPC and XPM still handle them with much lower overhead than credit card network. In the long term micropayments should be provided by centralized providers, or a less decentralized network optimized for high capacity transaction processing. On the other hand there is no promise that minimum transaction fee wouldn't be adjusted. If processing capacity of personal computers continues to advance at the current pace, both max block size and minimum transaction fee could very well be adjusted at some point. However I do take a very cautious approach to adjusting transaction fees, as opposed to bitcoin devs. The impact to the fitness of the currency as a backbone currency is of great concerns to me." Therefore, Peercoin is designed first and foremost as a secure store of value which prioritizes decentralization over speed and transaction volume. This is the definition of a backbone currency. Further, Sunny said in the quote that large volume and high-speed microtransactions can be achieved by using off-chain networks, which could range anywhere from centralized solutions to semi-decentralized to trustless. This allows Peercoin to remain a highly decentralized network and store of value while the majority of transactions take place off-chain. Peercoin just turned 3 years old and its blockchain is only around 400 MB. This is a result of Sunny King's very specific design. The Peercoin community has been promoting these ideas for a long time now. It seems that certain people are only now starting to realize the importance of them. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: Sentinelrv on August 24, 2015, 08:24:26 PM Also for those who discount Peercoin because of centralized checkpoints, they won't be part of the protocol forever. As many Peercoiners know, checkpoints are similar to training wheels. They are an added protection when the network is young. Once minting participation increases and the network strengthens, centralized checkpoints will be removed by Sunny King and Peercoin will be able to exist without them.
The Nu Network, which is one of our Peercoin forks has already removed centralized checkpoints due to its higher participation of minting by shareholders. The participation is higher because of the requirement of shareholders to place votes when minting, which are needed in order to successfully run the network and change the supply of NuBits. Nu has run without checkpointing for almost a year now with no problems and Peercoin will eventually reach this state. It's just a matter of time. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: K210 on August 24, 2015, 09:48:58 PM Peercoin has my vote, Sunny King designed peercoin to be a backbone currency. It's only know that many people are starting to catch onto Sunny King's concept that went into peercoin.
Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: lovely89 on August 25, 2015, 10:01:25 AM It's almost like peercoin was developed today to solve the exact problem bitcoin has, except it was done innovatively 3 years ago!
I also like nxt. Ethereum looks like something to continue watching but way over priced. eMunie is making strides. NEM could be big and there are a few smaller ones I'm invested in. :) Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: Leinaded on August 25, 2015, 10:16:41 AM What are your thoughts? :) If I've understood your question well you ask for stability, reliability and a good investment long term? As cryptocoins are based in code in my opinion they won't be a safe investment long-term, 20-40 years for something like a retirement fund. All things related with computers and programming are highly mutable and fluid. Just look how has changed the pc world in this last decade. As new hardware appears new revolutions can change it all, old things that seemed reliable could become obsolete in a couple of years but same as the are risks there are many great opportunities. So if you want to buy something and forget about it for the next 40 years I don't recommend cryptos. But if you're willing to keep an eye to your investment, search for opportunities and take risks cryptos are a great place to look. If you want safety and a bit of profitability long-term look for gold when it goes back to 400$-500$/oz. or invest in diamonds, something tangible. And always diversify your investment. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: penek on August 25, 2015, 12:31:52 PM Why you forgot about Novacoin?
Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: masterOfDisaster on August 25, 2015, 01:13:56 PM It's almost like peercoin was developed today to solve the exact problem bitcoin has, except it was done innovatively 3 years ago! [...] The problem Bitcoin has? No, the real problems will begin when mining data centres start to attack the network to perform double spending attacks. Sounds crazy? For convenience here's not only the link (https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2s8qge/its_happening/cnndc36), but the content as well for the rationale: Quote In difference to recent significant price drops in Bitcoin's history the situation might be more complicated now. It mght be more complicated, because Bitcoin mining is no longer something that single enthusiasts do on their GPU rigs, FPGAs or Avalons. Bitcoin mining has been converted to a business. A business that needs to generate revenue. That revenue is generated by mining and an appropriate combination of selling the Bitcoins to cover costs (purchase, operating, etc.) and keeping the Bitcoins for speculating purposes. With plummeting prices there's a point at which the mined Bitcoins don't even cover the cost of operating the mining devices. Somewhere close to that point the mining devices need to be shut off. The thing is: the block chain is secured by the PoW mining. The difficulty drops as a result of turned off miners. But the mining hardware is still there, available, with who-knows how many PH/s (in case of a Bitcoin mining data centre that was shut down). That is not only a threat for other coins that have a SHA256 PoW, it poses a thread to Bitcoin itself. This threat is based on the scenario in which a mining facility operator might be desperate by having invested hundreds of thousands of USD, maybe even millions and not knowing how to cover the costs. It would be good for that operator to at least cover the costs of building that facility. Assuming that the mining would have been done by selling a part of the Bitcoins and keeping some for speculation that could be achieved by selling those kept Bitcoins. That might be an explanation for this downward spiral we see at Bitcoin's price for some time now. Dropping prices cause more Bitcoins to be sold until there are no left in the pockets of that operator. Now begins the real threat - not for the operator and not in terms of selling pressure at the markets. That operator now has an incentive to use the hardware for attacking the network trying to cover his loss. If it's just a small mining data centre with only a few PH/s, that wlll hardly be successful. If it's a big one it will be dangerous. This is the ugly face of the combination of centralization and the need for expensive specialized mining hardware. The little guy can't do anything to leverage the effects of big mining data centres going wild. Under normal circumstances big players have no incentive to go wild. Instead they have an incentive do to the best to protect their investment. Under extraordinary cirumstances it might be different. That's sad but true. You can downvote me to hell now. You can do so, because you hate what I say. You can do it because I made you afraid. But you can hardly do it, because all of it is nonsense and lacks comprehension. Why you forgot about Novacoin? Because of the shady start of Novacoin?Because it's a Peercoin clone that doesn't offer anything special except for a PoW process (to distribute new coins) that uses Scrypt instead of SHA256? ...dunno what else ;) Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: EvilDave on August 25, 2015, 01:24:01 PM There is no hedge for bitcoins unless you are storing your money outside cryptocurrency. When bitcoin drops, all other altcoins will follow suit. Yep, sad but true: http://i61.tinypic.com/t85bao.jpg However, if you take a look at the top 15 currencies on CMC over the last week, you can see that several are gaining against BTC, even if only in small amounts. Based on this, Ethereum, Maidsafe, Ripple, NXT and Doge are the only possible hedge options at this moment........but: as Ethereum is still a baby and Ripple isn't a crypto, looks like NXT, Maidsafe and Doge are the best options. Edit: Heres my investment tip: Suzuki Katana GSX1100M (http://www.earlclassics.com/#!gsx1100-katana-silver/cw1t) Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: penek on August 25, 2015, 03:02:14 PM Why you forgot about Novacoin? Because of the shady start of Novacoin?Because it's a Peercoin clone that doesn't offer anything special except for a PoW process (to distribute new coins) that uses Scrypt instead of SHA256? ...dunno what else ;) Novacoin is clone of Peercoin? I don't think so... https://wiki.novaco.in/en/FAQ Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: Balthazar on August 25, 2015, 03:33:58 PM Because of the shady start of Novacoin? http://www.thefreedictionary.com/imaginationTitle: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: masterOfDisaster on August 25, 2015, 04:17:49 PM Because of the shady start of Novacoin? http://www.thefreedictionary.com/imagination-> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=144158.0 ! Regarding hedging - $100,000 daily volume, almost 0 fluctuation: http://imgur.com/Y8GIs1Y edit: hmmm imgur links don't work here? try this: http://imgur.com/Y8GIs1Y More details here: http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/nubits/ Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: Balthazar on August 25, 2015, 05:07:27 PM Imagination? -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=144158.0 ! I wonder to know what are you trying to say by publishing this link. Of course there were some coins generated right after public start of block chain and I personally destroyed these outputs. I guess it would be correct to say that you haven't seen anyone, who did the same thing. Is this a shadowy start or what? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=143221.msg3730462#msg3730462 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=217110.msg2298533#msg2298533 I would say that forum trolling can be a good approach for developing the ability to gather information and form an independent opinion. It's much better than idea to follow some statements religiously and, even more, to keep the will for pushing the same agenda over and over, like some other people are doing. But honestly, I just don't care, because there are some other interesting issues to be dealt with. Sincerely, your Alex (https://ru.linkedin.com/pub/alexey-demidov/57/288/a2b). Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: Gillette on August 25, 2015, 06:10:19 PM Anonymity is not at all the decisive factor to consider xmr as hedge of btc.
Eth and fiat are perfect hedges of btc at this moment. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: masterOfDisaster on August 25, 2015, 08:07:17 PM Imagination? -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=144158.0 ! I wonder to know what are you trying to say by publishing this link. Of course there were some coins generated right after public start of block chain and I personally destroyed these outputs. I guess it would be correct to say that you haven't seen anyone, who did the same thing. Is this a shadowy start or what? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=143221.msg3730462#msg3730462 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=217110.msg2298533#msg2298533 I would say that forum trolling can be a good approach for developing the ability to gather information and form an independent opinion. It's much better than idea to follow some statements religiously and, even more, to keep the will for pushing the same agenda over and over, like some other people are doing. But honestly, I just don't care, because there are some other interesting issues to be dealt with. Sincerely, your Alex (https://ru.linkedin.com/pub/alexey-demidov/57/288/a2b). I beg your pardon if you feel treated unfair by my comments. I admit that I haven't tried to get to the bottom of all of this. I'm quite sure that Novacoin is one of the rather innovative coins compared to hundreds of others - following the lead of Peercoin must be an innovative move ;) ...maybe that's what went wrong; my whole last post regarding Novacoin should have been seen with a wink :) Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: Rakete4 on August 25, 2015, 10:08:37 PM Novacoin was more instamined than Peercoin, but Novacoin has got higher PoW inflation.
So short term, Peercoin's launch was more fair, while long term, Novacoin is more fair. And there are more differences between the two. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: habraken on August 26, 2015, 02:25:51 PM Novacoin was more instamined than Peercoin, but Novacoin has got higher PoW inflation. So short term, Peercoin's launch was more fair, while long term, Novacoin is more fair. And there are more differences between the two. [offtopic] PoW is only 'fair' if you 'happen' to have a lot of dedicated mining hardware and live in a cheap electricity area :) Else it's just the people who can afford to invest in both, who get the coins. Less wasteful on the environment if you just invest the same amount of fiat in PoS-coins directly imo, buy them. [/offtopic] Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: Rakete4 on August 26, 2015, 06:03:19 PM Novacoin was more instamined than Peercoin, but Novacoin has got higher PoW inflation. So short term, Peercoin's launch was more fair, while long term, Novacoin is more fair. And there are more differences between the two. [offtopic] PoW is only 'fair' if you 'happen' to have a lot of dedicated mining hardware and live in a cheap electricity area :) Else it's just the people who can afford to invest in both, who get the coins. Less wasteful on the environment if you just invest the same amount of fiat in PoS-coins directly imo, buy them. [/offtopic] It's offtopic, so just very brief: When you buy PoW coins, you pay for the electritiy via paying the seller/miner. The seller/miner is just an agent who gets a moderate profit. While when you buy pure PoS coins on the open market, you pay the seller for being an early adopter. Big difference. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: LiQio on August 26, 2015, 07:06:32 PM Novacoin was more instamined than Peercoin, but Novacoin has got higher PoW inflation. So short term, Peercoin's launch was more fair, while long term, Novacoin is more fair. And there are more differences between the two. [offtopic] PoW is only 'fair' if you 'happen' to have a lot of dedicated mining hardware and live in a cheap electricity area :) Else it's just the people who can afford to invest in both, who get the coins. Less wasteful on the environment if you just invest the same amount of fiat in PoS-coins directly imo, buy them. [/offtopic] It's offtopic, so just very brief: When you buy PoW coins, you pay for the electritiy via paying the seller/miner. The seller/miner is just an agent who gets a moderate profit. While when you buy pure PoS coins on the open market, you pay the seller for being an early adopter. Big difference. The profit of the seller is irrelevant and doesn't have to be moderate at all (there are also miners that have free electricity). This argument is economical nonsense. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: penek on August 27, 2015, 06:47:57 AM I don't see the difference between buying hardware for PoW mining and buying coins for PoS mining...
may be only in start profit... but, I know that between the purchase hardware for PoW mining and starting to work can take long time, comparable with generating first PoS block... and aslo an important role playing model of emission... I think that in Novacoin emission is well-balanced... Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: couer22 on August 27, 2015, 02:34:06 PM Since taking over for BTC is a main criteria for hedging against its fall, so many coins fail on this criteria.
Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: asuryan180 on August 27, 2015, 02:49:07 PM Since taking over for BTC is a main criteria for hedging against its fall, so many coins fail on this criteria. This is why ETH ranks high. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: qwizzie on August 27, 2015, 08:12:10 PM Quote Dash: is just a coinjoin implementation, that already exists on BTC. the "incentivized node idea" is decent, but flawed because not anonymous. Besides that, I never understood why a "masternode" needs to hold a certain amount of coins. Why just not reward all the active nodes? Interesting to see how those two lines of yours have absolutely nothing to do with Dash, it couldnt hurt to do some personal research on some cryptocurrencies.. Title: Re: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins? Post by: Robin,Hood on August 27, 2015, 08:44:18 PM Since taking over for BTC is a main criteria for hedging against its fall, so many coins fail on this criteria. This is why ETH ranks high. Ethereum is not a crypto currency coin but a open source software platform. https://i.imgur.com/Yye8FRJ.png Ethereum is somewhat comparable with "Red Hat Linux" on blockchain tech. Yeh you may can build on it but open source software is not a investment to expect financial return. It maybe an investment on ethical grounds. On top of it a CEO with a track-record of 5 started and failed companies is not the most convincing argument for a sound investment. |
