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Author Topic: What is the perfect hedge for our bitcoins?  (Read 4898 times)
dnaleor (OP)
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August 20, 2015, 01:32:45 PM
Last edit: August 20, 2015, 02:07:23 PM by dnaleor
 #1

if the current Block size drama is learning us at least one thing, then it's the fact that we need a hedge for our BTC investments. It's unsafe to keep all our eggs in the same basket, so diversifying is key, but where?

Let's look at what are -in my opinion- the desirable properties of a hedge in the cryptocurrency space:


* Not "the same" as bitcoin, so no copycoins with the same codebase.

Why?
Because these coins have the same problems as BTC, in the long run.
Remember: we are looking for a hedge, so something for the long term. We aren't gambling. Riding an LTC pump is fine, but by "investing" in LTC, you aren't hedging, you are speculating.

This rules out a lot of coins, for example LTC and DOGE (and 90% of the other altcoins).

I know, most of these coins use scrypt, but that is about the only difference. And you should note that there are already ASICs for scrypt, so not much diffrerence between BTC and these scrypt coins.


*the hedge needs features that can't be implemented in BTC, in the long run.

Why?
Because bitcoin has undoubtedly the first mover advantage. If a coin has a good feature, but that feature can be copied and just added to BTC, then it's not a good hedge. I would avoid "appcoins".
Also, when bitcoin becomes larger and larger, it will become harder and harder to change the base protocol. people will need to build things on BTC ("bitcoin 2.0") or connect things to BTC (sidechains). If changing a parameter from 1 to 8 is such a drama, then I don't think it is likely that a lot of fundamental changes can still be made to the bitcoin base protocol. bitcoin is ossifying...

This rules out a bunch of appcoins like maidsafe, ethereum, bitshares, dash and counterparty and NXT.

Counterparty: I never understood why we need the token XCP. I think this can be done on BTC (even without a sidechain I think)
Dash: is just a coinjoin implementation, that already exists on BTC. the "incentivized node idea" is decent, but flawed because not anonymous. Besides that, I never understood why a "masternode" needs to hold a certain amount of coins. Why just not reward all the active nodes?
Ethereum: I could imagine that a sidechain with ethereum features is perfectly possible.
Bitshares: Also possible on sidechains/colored coins
Maidsafe: I think a sidechain for storage is also possible.
NXT: All features can go on a sidechain, without a doubt, but this coin uses PoS, so I don't rule it out completely.


*fair launch, no shenanigans, decent (real) volume and "decentralized nature"

why?
Crypto land isn't a playground. We need to raise our level a bit. If we want serious money to invest in our crypto scene, we need to be serious ourselves and don't jump on every new shitcoin that is premined and act if it were the new gold and dump it a few weeks later...

This rules out coins like Dash (again), Ripple/Stellar and bytecoin

Dash: massive instamine in the first 24 hours of the coins existence (2 million coins)
Ripple/Stellar: a coin that isn't decentralized at all. The banks will maybe fork it for their own internal ledgers, there is no need for the coin itself.
Bytecoin: massive 80% stealth/instamine and fake volume on HitBTC

---

So which coins remain that also have a decent volume and market cap?

NXT, Peercoin, Namecoin and Monero

NXT: I'm was on the fence about this coin, but since I've read this paper by Andrew Poelstra about the flaws in PoS I'm less convinced: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

Peercoin: this is a good hedge against a flaw in PoW because it also has PoS combined with PoW. Seems a more secure solution AND it has the first mover advantage in the PoS space. But it doesn't offer anything else. And theoretically PoS could be implemented in BTC if needed (although unlikely).

Namecoin: This is based on the bitcoin codebase, but why do I include it in the "shortlist"? Well, I don't think a new decentralized naming system is fair, because that would render all registered domains on namecoin useless and invalid. However, I don't think it's a good hedge, because it's really a niche currency and has the same codebase as BTC.

Monero: this coin offers something that is very unlikely to be implemented in BTC: anonymous transactions and fungible coins through the unique combination of ring signatures and stealth addresses. Anonimity can be reached to a certain degree on the bitcoin network, but not fungibility. A good functioning money system needs to be fungible. I suggest you check out this video for more information about the tech behind this coin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEVm1dMn5Ks
Also, this coin has a small perpetual block reward, making this coin a hedge against possible problems in a fee market. I have doubts a fee market can function, so a small perpetual block reward solves this. Also, this makes the coin more fair for people who adopt this coin in the future. In 20 years time people will look at BTC and maybe think it's a scam because most of the coins will be mined. they will need to "buy in" the project of others. Monero won't suffer from this, or at least to a lesser extent.
It also has a different cryptographic curve than BTC, so this is an additional hedge
And it has a dynamic block size limit. No discussions about hard forking here...

---

So, here is my overview of coins. As you can probably see, I lean towards using Monero as a hedge. I think it fits perfectly. Also investing a bit in NMC, PPC and maybe NXT seems reasonable.

What are your thoughts? Smiley

edit: willing to change this post with your feedback. Will try to provide some links to document claims.
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August 20, 2015, 01:43:09 PM
 #2

Ethereum and Monero would be my vote. I hold a small amount of each, so I'm biased but then again why wouldn't I hold what I recommend?

Ethereum: Sure, it's possible to incorporate smart contracts and other features on top of bitcoin via counterparty and the like. However, since ETH has such a smaller user base and very centralized development process, speed of development will be much quicker over the next 1-2 years while it matures. Anything more than 1-2 years out is too far, but I think that is a reasonable time frame to look at.

Monero: Similar to the above, Monero has a very targeted approach to privacy, fungibility and secrecy. It does a good job of covering all needs whether that of dark/grey markets or that of a law abiding storefronts since transactions can easily be revealed with view keys. I don't see Bitcoin gaining these features in any sort of useable fashion for at least 2 years since they'd need to be built into a sidechain first. Sidechains won't be fully trusted until the federated model can be removed and this may take even longer than 2 years, although I rather hope that it won't take this long.

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August 20, 2015, 01:48:48 PM
 #3

perfect hedge is fiat, you can make btc anonymous already without using monero, dash or other 'anon' coins.
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August 20, 2015, 02:00:26 PM
 #4

perfect hedge is fiat, you can make btc anonymous already without using monero, dash or other 'anon' coins.

I don't agree with this at all. While mined coins are pretty damned anon, everything else really isn't. You'd have to buy and sell with cash, use VPN for all of your traffic, make sure to not reuse addresses or join addresses for large spends, etc. The average user isn't going to do that - they need an out of the box toolset that utilizes coinjoin/stealth addresses/etc.

dnaleor (OP)
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August 20, 2015, 02:09:55 PM
 #5

Ethereum and Monero would be my vote. I hold a small amount of each, so I'm biased but then again why wouldn't I hold what I recommend?

Ethereum: Sure, it's possible to incorporate smart contracts and other features on top of bitcoin via counterparty and the like. However, since ETH has such a smaller user base and very centralized development process, speed of development will be much quicker over the next 1-2 years while it matures. Anything more than 1-2 years out is too far, but I think that is a reasonable time frame to look at.

Monero: Similar to the above, Monero has a very targeted approach to privacy, fungibility and secrecy. It does a good job of covering all needs whether that of dark/grey markets or that of a law abiding storefronts since transactions can easily be revealed with view keys. I don't see Bitcoin gaining these features in any sort of useable fashion for at least 2 years since they'd need to be built into a sidechain first. Sidechains won't be fully trusted until the federated model can be removed and this may take even longer than 2 years, although I rather hope that it won't take this long.

thanks for your input.

Yes, maybe you are right about ethereum and I need to revisit my position. It has a different codebase, so that's a plus also Smiley

About XMR and sidechains, that won't work because you will only have the anonimity, but not the fungibility. I posted about this a few months ago:
Gregory Maxwell is working on something called "Confidential Transactions" which will add privacy to bitcoin using "Pederson commitments" (proposed by Adam Back in 2013).

https://people.xiph.org/~greg/confidential_values.txt

Everyone should keep an eye on this.

I don't know all the technical details of his proposal, but just think theoretically here:
A sidechain which works perfectly like Monero is introduced, what are the consequences?

(1) people who send BTC in the "ring signature sidechain" (RSSC), taint their BTC who are not entering the RSSC. If their identity is matched with the same identity as who put BTC in the RSSC, this person can become "flagged".

(2) people can transact within the RSSC anonymously. This has value. (The same value as transacting in XMR).

(3) people who want to get their BTC out of the RSSC, immediately taint those BTC. It's even easier to taint these BTC than BTC put through a mixer or using coinjoin because you don't need to do extensive chainalysis. If/when regulation starts to come down on payment processors and/or miners (see my reddit post about fungibility for more info on the risks of tainting your BTC), these BTC's will be hard to spend in the 'regular economy' or even transact with.

People probably want to avoid (3) happening, so they keep their BTC in the RSSC. But this has disadvantages too, your BTC are locked in this particular sidechain! If another (better) sidechain comes out, you can't migrate them (or maybe you can, don't know if the sidechain proposal allows settlement directly on another sidechain or not). Also, if miners and/or nodes stop supporting the 'obfuscation sidechains' like RSSC (assuming they even wanted to touch them in the first place), you can't even use the transaction system (2) and your BTC became worthless in an unsupported sidechain.

Why risk all that and not just buy XMR? you can always dump them if the market is starting to switch towards another (better) anon cryptocoin? 
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August 20, 2015, 08:08:21 PM
 #6

Ethereum and Monero would be my vote. I hold a small amount of each, so I'm biased but then again why wouldn't I hold what I recommend?

Ethereum: Sure, it's possible to incorporate smart contracts and other features on top of bitcoin via counterparty and the like. However, since ETH has such a smaller user base and very centralized development process, speed of development will be much quicker over the next 1-2 years while it matures. Anything more than 1-2 years out is too far, but I think that is a reasonable time frame to look at.

Monero: Similar to the above, Monero has a very targeted approach to privacy, fungibility and secrecy. It does a good job of covering all needs whether that of dark/grey markets or that of a law abiding storefronts since transactions can easily be revealed with view keys. I don't see Bitcoin gaining these features in any sort of useable fashion for at least 2 years since they'd need to be built into a sidechain first. Sidechains won't be fully trusted until the federated model can be removed and this may take even longer than 2 years, although I rather hope that it won't take this long.

thanks for your input.

Yes, maybe you are right about ethereum and I need to revisit my position. It has a different codebase, so that's a plus also Smiley

About XMR and sidechains, that won't work because you will only have the anonimity, but not the fungibility. I posted about this a few months ago:
Gregory Maxwell is working on something called "Confidential Transactions" which will add privacy to bitcoin using "Pederson commitments" (proposed by Adam Back in 2013).

https://people.xiph.org/~greg/confidential_values.txt

Everyone should keep an eye on this.

I don't know all the technical details of his proposal, but just think theoretically here:
A sidechain which works perfectly like Monero is introduced, what are the consequences?

(1) people who send BTC in the "ring signature sidechain" (RSSC), taint their BTC who are not entering the RSSC. If their identity is matched with the same identity as who put BTC in the RSSC, this person can become "flagged".

(2) people can transact within the RSSC anonymously. This has value. (The same value as transacting in XMR).

(3) people who want to get their BTC out of the RSSC, immediately taint those BTC. It's even easier to taint these BTC than BTC put through a mixer or using coinjoin because you don't need to do extensive chainalysis. If/when regulation starts to come down on payment processors and/or miners (see my reddit post about fungibility for more info on the risks of tainting your BTC), these BTC's will be hard to spend in the 'regular economy' or even transact with.

People probably want to avoid (3) happening, so they keep their BTC in the RSSC. But this has disadvantages too, your BTC are locked in this particular sidechain! If another (better) sidechain comes out, you can't migrate them (or maybe you can, don't know if the sidechain proposal allows settlement directly on another sidechain or not). Also, if miners and/or nodes stop supporting the 'obfuscation sidechains' like RSSC (assuming they even wanted to touch them in the first place), you can't even use the transaction system (2) and your BTC became worthless in an unsupported sidechain.

Why risk all that and not just buy XMR? you can always dump them if the market is starting to switch towards another (better) anon cryptocoin? 

I agree with this analysis. I'd say that the only way that the sidechains anon/privacy features end up being useful is if the value stays in the sidechain as you've suggested. Perhaps there will be shapeshift style services that allow for spends between BTC and RSSC. Either way, I'm not terribly concerned since I don't see sidechains as anything besides a technology proving ground the forseeable future.

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August 20, 2015, 08:18:51 PM
 #7

Probably ethereum.  It's the only major crypto that didn't nosedive when Btc had a flash crash the other day.

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dnaleor (OP)
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August 20, 2015, 09:49:55 PM
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Probably ethereum.  It's the only major crypto that didn't nosedive when Btc had a flash crash the other day.

monero is also up Wink


Quote
I agree with this analysis. I'd say that the only way that the sidechains anon/privacy features end up being useful is if the value stays in the sidechain as you've suggested. Perhaps there will be shapeshift style services that allow for spends between BTC and RSSC. Either way, I'm not terribly concerned since I don't see sidechains as anything besides a technology proving ground the forseeable future.

Those services will be suject to money laundering laws. Ok, still possible of the owners are anonymous, but the coins will be flagged on the BTC network...
It is an interesting situation, no doubt about that

also, consider if miners will run a RSSC-node. I think if that is made illegal, a lot of miners won't run an node that enables anonymizing.
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August 20, 2015, 10:14:35 PM
 #9

But Monero doesn't have a future

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August 20, 2015, 10:19:12 PM
 #10

I think this is nothing but another Monero fanboy post cluttering up this forum. 

When are you girls going to give up?  Stop kicking the dead horse.

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August 21, 2015, 02:38:40 AM
 #11

I think this is nothing but another Monero fanboy post cluttering up this forum. 

When are you girls going to give up?  Stop kicking the dead horse.

You should short XMR - poloniex is offering this.

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August 21, 2015, 03:05:06 AM
 #12

I think this is nothing but another Monero fanboy post cluttering up this forum. 

When are you girls going to give up?  Stop kicking the dead horse.

Dead horse is testing DB and has a game* releasing next week. Your move, hater.   Smiley



*A cyber economy with VR storefronts and property would be a more precise description.

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August 21, 2015, 09:00:47 AM
 #13

I think Nxt is really a big for the longterm future. A lot of great updates are added all the time. The most innovative crypto around. Check nxtforum.org to learn about the features which will be implemented in version 1.6, 1.7 and 1.8. Really exciting times. The rest in crypto is kind of boring.
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August 21, 2015, 09:13:30 AM
 #14

hedge? what do you mean? if you mean USD, you should buy nubits, tether

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August 21, 2015, 09:20:06 AM
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The succes of a platform like NXT does not depend on the value of its tokens, the 'coins'.

It's silly to compare coins to platforms.
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August 21, 2015, 09:25:48 AM
Last edit: August 21, 2015, 11:18:48 AM by jabo38
 #16

NEM has a lot of really interesting development and isn't plagued by much of the problems you listed above except low market cap and low volume as it is still a young platform.

Features
- NEM is built 100% from scratch (not a fork of any existing project)
- NEM is built with test-driven development
- NEM uses innovative Proof-of-Importance algorithm: first reputation based blockchain algorythm
- NEM improves different features of POW and POS coins, being more efficient and environmentally friendly
- NEM one minute average block times
- NEM is the first crypto with delegated harvesting
- NEM is the first with localized spam protection
- NEM is the first with Eigentrust++ peer reputation management
- NEM is the first editable m-of-n multisig with blockchain based alerts
- NEM offers encrypted, unencrypted and hex messaging
- NEM is easy to install with a one click installer
- NEM zero inflation (fixed supply, all 9 billion coins released at launch).
- NEM relatively large egalitarian distribution
- NEM will offer a mobile wallet for both iOS and Android (coming soon)









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August 21, 2015, 09:29:17 AM
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NXT is my choice! just because you have to own NXT to use the platform features
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August 21, 2015, 09:39:59 AM
 #18

proof of importance is the biggest bullshit scam ever invented. ¨
also, the Poelstra PoS criticism is deranged

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August 21, 2015, 09:49:28 AM
 #19

I like NXT and still hodl a nice bag but the price is going south only. Why should I buy assets with NXT when I know my assets are less worth in some weeks because of the NXT permdumps?

Unfortunately all altcoins failed in creating a liquid and healthy altcoin/fiat market. I guess if BTC dies, all altcoins will die with it.

Best way to hedge is probably holding Fiat and wait for the next BTC flash crash



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August 21, 2015, 10:05:52 AM
 #20

Fiat is the safest hedge if you're scared of Bitcoin.

Use it to buy some land.  Problem solved.

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