Bitcoin Forum

Introduced bitcoin do a developer I know by simply sending him an e-mail asking him if he ever heard about bitcoin.

I got a knee jerk reaction in turn where he ranted about terrorism, criminals and untracability. I asked him what he thought is currently being used as funds at all the black and grey markets in the world.

I can't undestand why an intelligent developer will have this view, is it the negative press?

Anyway, I told him about the wordpress development, and gave him a list of the sites that accepts bitcoins (from the wiki) and linked him to the whitepaper and the Bitcoin 100 charity list.

He was also afraid of anarchism and didn't see this as a solution, and didn't want to go cold turkey on the current system.

Why is is that someones first reaction to bitcoin is this negative ? He said on a technical level it seemed very interesting though. I am pretty sure he hasn't educated himself about how it works on a technical level at all, everybody would need some time to truly understand that.

Pretty much all the press is negative and relating to silk road or passing references to some master ruse.
Also, most people rely too heavily on the current system and see anarchists as one dimensional crusties who live in tents and smash up shops on May day.

Most of my friends who haven't taken the time to look into Bitcoin still see it as a scam.

If there's one thing I've learned. It is this:

1. Don't trust any state.
2. Don't trust news media.


So what's left is to figure out things for yourself. Upon hearing about bitcoin, I read the whitepaper whithin the same day and did my best to educate myself about it and learn. Why don't others do the same ?

Programmers are usually atheist. They are just not that much interested in being converted to religions.

Most programmers I know can't tie their own shoelaces. They think linearly. Don't expect them to see a hypertoroid.

Ok, troll, I'll bite.

Why is bitcoin a religion ? Looking into a technology and seeing the potential, and being positive to it, will this make me a religious nut ?

I don't see any problem in being negative towards bitcoin, if the critisism is based on facts.

So, if I like and tell people about Linux, am I a religious nutter?


Could not this be applied to most people ?

Exactly. Programmers are just technicians. They are not dreamers. Dreamers are the people that shed their blood for the betterment of humanity.

It took me a while between hearing about Bitcoin and reading the white paper but that was what really piqued my interest.

Agreed, it would actually be very strange if there was only positive news about Bitcoin. Personally, I've learned that I can't take anything I read at face value, esp. not what I read in 'the news'. :)


And in regards to the point of being a religious nutter. Someone that constantly bombards you with how great their idea/religion/tech is, could be considered a religious nutter. Personally, I just mention something one or two times, and if people don't bite, I never bug them anymore.

I find it is less about what their profession is, and more about how 'captured' they are by current society.

If the person is uncomfortable considering ideas that are "outside" conventional circles, they sure as hell won't be bothering with bitcoin. Bitcoin brings up all those grey areas about what money really is, how the economy is being run, and just how badly you're getting screwed by the current gate-keepers of the financial system.

Some people don't want to deal with that. They just want to get home, eat dinner and space out on the internet or watch a movie. Thinking is hard, and thinking about things that are outside the normal scope of things is harder still.

This doesn't mean that bitcoin will never get its day in the sun, just that those who realize the potential early on will be the greatest benefactors, and rightly so - we take the risks that the timid won't consider.

TraderTimm, great post, I wish I could upvote it.

+1 anyway..

I'm programmer and I'm feeling some insult in this topic, don't label ALL programmers :(

I must admit that most of programmers just keep looking of what most of the web says about, and think linearly and using the Boolean Logic, where the things are only 2 state: or it is, or it isn't.
Most programmers keep their lifes with themselves and never think of great things, except apps and other executabels that could be fun and make money.

People feel safe inside their little walled gardens.

When you tell them your gona pull the wall down it terrifies them.

A thousand apologies. I usually make sweeping overgeneralized statements with the disclaimer "present company excluded, of course."

+1  ;D

I've asked a programmer of MyClientBase if he would like to accept donation for his invoice and client management open source software about a year ago.
I admit I was a bit surprised after I've received his bitcoin address in his reply.
I've failed to donate to whole bunch of freeware or open source software, not sure why. It's not that hard to spend BTC, or exchange it if you really want to.

I have 7 friends that use it, and the rest of my friends don't see the point in it/think it'll destroy the world economy. I've been forced to result to the points of "Okay, then tell my why video game currencies haven't" and "What do you think's used in blackmarkets everywhere right now?" The first one's a logical fallacy, and the second one's just "THINK DAMMIT!"

Just tell them that it will do better than the Euro. At least bitcoin isn't dragging down the collective economies of multiple countries. Also emphasize that it sticks to rational monetary policy, but only if they really push it. Most people don't even know what Bernanke does, even though they should.

Well, I had some more communication with my friend.

He seems to be very concerned about the possibility of criminal usage for bitcoin.

I try to explain that the technology is neutral, and that crime should be fixed by fixing the root cause, ie. better parenting, better schooling, and give people opportunities and resources.

As the saying goes:

It's easier to raise a boy to be a good man, than to fix a broken man.


My aim was to tell him about bitcoin and let him know about it, but he went all defensive, quoting numerous bitcoin articles and saying that bitcoin has failed several times (as in Bitcoinica, Pirate etc).

I tried to give him the road analogy, a road is still working even if criminals runs on it, and there's fatalities with large car crashed. The technology (the road) does it purpose, but it's the individuals that
are using the technology that causes all the problems.

He seemed to be a bit black and white, either you use bitcoin and don't use traditional systems, or the other way around. It's not like that, I merely wanted him to know about bitcoins, and the opportunities it gives.

Although I'm pro bitcoin, I have no problems with criticism of Bitcoin as long as it's based on logic and facts. I'm not here to prove anyone wrong or to 'win'. I just inform, then people can make up their own mind.

But I think that dismissing something without properly understanding it, that's a bit silly. So at this point I think it became more of a back and forth issue about who's right and who's not. And that was never the intention.

He claims that he's an individual thinker, and doesn't get affected by the mass media, but yet he gives me countless links showing how bitcoin 'has failed'.

For example, this is one of the 'fails' he refers to:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19486695

And then of course countless others.

He also says bitcoin is shredded in secrecy and that there's no accountability.

I respond that it's all there in the open, the name of developers, the source code and of course, it's up to the individual to secure his own bitcoins.


Hm... Not really sure where I want to go with all this, but it could be a lesson for those who read this thread. Don't make judgements about anything until you truly understand it, and certainly do not let the media decide what your opinion should be.

Of course there's been a lot of 'fails' within the bitcoin community, but bitcoin itself (the protocol / the software) has worked as promised, and has delivered the infrastructure it's supposed to do for 4 years.

I'm also a bit surprised that media articles paints bitcoin as a failure, when big bitcoin services fail, would anyone of those journalists paint the USD as a fail if a big bank had some executives running away with the money, or if there was a heist of all the valuables at a central bank ?

It seems to me, since bitcoin is based on cryptography, it's something new and scary, and most journalists doesn't have the technical knowhow to understand what it's all about, so hence they just run with whatever sensational piece they have. This new, cryptocurrency thing - yeah, that exchange - yes it failed - ah - bitcoin failed again.

Brilliant line of thinking right there...


Edit: Yeah, and of course the statement: "It's not mainstream yet."   Doh... what new tech was ever mainstream in the beginning (TV, mobile phone, computer).

Just cut to the heart of it -- the language he develops in has no doubt been used to construct malware and virus programs, why does he continue to use it? Hasn't it "failed"? Of course not, but perhaps he may see more clearly with such an example.

If not, he'll come around eventually when most of the tech jobs switch over to bitcoin :)

Haha, great way of running it. Yes, I gave him some examples, not exactly that one, but along those lines yes. Like someone else said in this thread, devs. can be a bit binary, so it's either on or off. :) I just wanted to run the idea of bitcoin past him (I normally don't run it past most normal people), but I figured since he was a dev, he'd 'get it'.

I'll see how it develops.

A tissue for both of you for hurting your feelings. I guess you agree about not being able to tie your own shoelaces.  ;)

No feeling hurts here, just that it sounds like we are working monkeys, with no ideas.

How many have talked down Linux in the past? And now, how many Linux running machines are out there?
The day will come when bitcoin icon will be installed by default on any Android phone.

I think Satoshi would disagree with you.

Satoshi is/was a cypherpunk. One does not simply call cypherpunks programmers.

Just point to the vast majority of theft, crime, drug dealing and website hacks that occurs in US Dollars, Euros, etc.

But in general, slamming someone for being invested in the status quo is not the way to win converts.

If programmers were all uncreative then how did Notch come up with Minecraft?

If programmers were dumbs without a life, you wouldn't post this.
There are more loc(lines of code) than you think to make this whole WWW to work.
There are a lot of dreamers programmers, those are the indie developers.  ;)

I am not saying that programmers cannot be dreamers, but they are rare. I associate with several programmers. They have no interest or understanding in Bitcoin. I know even more electrical engineers whom have even less interest in Bitcoin, though that's another discussion. As far as Dreamers go, they are not driven by the profitability of creating a new videogame. That is the opposite of a Dreamer. Most cypherpunks are probably dreamers. Dreamers are people that express themselves fearlessly against the status quo when things go astray. I think this is why some Hollywood dreamers are attracted to Bitcoin. Some programmers are driven to create open source projects to fulfill great needs. They are Dreamers. I have personally met only a few open source programmers. Poets are mostly dreamers. Some fiction writers are too. In the credits to a book I wrote "Thanks to the philosophers, artists, scientists, friends and lovers that took the time to make life better and special thanks to the dreamers that gave up everything to show them how." Dreamers are much more than people with good ideas. They are willing to stick their neck out when they have something to lose.

I must admit that the guy that starts his job life as programmer, and end his life as programmer, 99% sure he isn't a dreamer. There are a lot of greater concepts to be done instead of simply writing code on a computer.
And programmers that think that will make an awesome videogame are dumbasses, for me they aren't programmers, programmers must at least think, not only dream a stupid think, those childs think that making a 3D character move is fun and easy, but they don't even know how to make a fucking pyramid in a modeler software.

Cause several represents everyone. Don't generalize this just bad.

Also you talk about dreamers and how they go against the "status quo" and stuff like that. First off stop watching Apple's ad  it like in your mind. Second dreamers are people with ideas, they follow thru, they don't let one road block stop them. Dreamers are people just like you and me that want society to be what they envision.

Meh. That's a weak definition of a dreamer. People like Tolkein, Disney, many Hollywood production staff, Tesla, Hemmingway, Frost, etc. Satoshi and some of his followers qualify. I am not a dreamer anymore, because sometimes it takes too big a toll to survive. It's not the roadblocks. They tend to have a high mortality rate. I support the dreamers. I do not and never have owned or supported Apple.

I believe that this image explains a little what he thinks about the dreamers: only the best and the most brave are the dreamers.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSBQmFnwUz-Rq26whBwbZPpjVmcdnvgLxYv9PecVjAMuqUjOcvGM6CnIgQN

I've learned to always steer the discussions not towards bringing down the status quo (most people don't want that), but instead towards the technological revolution that Bitcoin represents, with these two points:

- For the first time ever, you can send money to ANYONE ANYWHERE in the world INSTANTLY and for FREE.
- For the first time ever, you can use a digital cash equivalent.  Previously, every transaction had to go through a bank or other central entity, but now, you can send money digitally without a bank or any other entity having to clear or deal with your transaction, or take transaction fees from it.

Those are both points that most people can relate to.  Those showcase why Bitcoin is so much better than the current systems.  Stay out of the anti-government, anarchist viewpoints, because most people (myself included, I'll admit) don't want that to happen.

Good points. I think I served him (the dev) those points as well, but our conversation turned more into him defending the status quo, and he used a lot of arguments that I don't think holds water, and sadly, when people use arguments like that, I'm starting to think there's no point of discussing with them.

Also, it was never my point to 'convert' him. I wanted to mention bitcoin, because as a fellow tech person, he might see the potential for it and drive to dive a little bit into it, without going to a complete fight and using lot's or arguments that's right out from negative articles from the mass media.

Anyway, Bitcoin will succeed or not succeed on it's own merits. Those who are now using the argument: "But it's not main stream", will start using Bitcon when it becomes mainstream, because then it's mainstream... doh..

I read somewhere a quote that most people will not believe something can happen until it has happened. That's human nature. Resistance to change is also human nature.

First, when I heard about bitcoin, I was also sceptical, but I used a week for research (reading whitepaper, downloading the source, gawking over it, trying out the client, visiting the forums, going onto irc and so on ) and I came to the realization that this can be something really great in the future, and that I want to be a part of it.

Sure, it's still small, but it has grown, and everything big started small at one point. Many people would laugh at someone starting in their garage and saying they want to change the world, but it has happened, and it will happen again.

We need the dreamers and the visionaries to propell the world forward, and to make a better world. If everyone just were concerned with the status quo, we would never have any progress.

I love people with an open mind. Of course it's important to be sceptical, and do research, but so many people are negative to bitcoin without actually understanding it. I look at that as lack of intelligence, or lazyness. At least, do an honest effort in understanding the technology, and what impact it can have on society, and then please give me your opinion.

This is technology, logics and facts, and of course there can be subjective opinions, but the nice thing about mathematics and science is that it's cold facts, there's no room for interpretation. The source is available for anyone to read and thinker with.

And as for coders, these come in many sizes and shapes. They're not all alike!

Update: Got a e-mail from my friend today, and he said he purchased a 7970 card, and I'm not sure if he wants to mine or just game, as I know he's kind of a gamer, anyway, he even linked me to http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/02/bitcoin-reaches-an-all-time-trading-high-of-over-33/

I told him recently if he got some money to spare, investing in a couple of bitcoins may be a good idea. So we'll see.

Anyway, being a little bit persistent goes a long way. Also, I love that bitcoin is gaining a stronger foothold now, then it's easier to plot it than when it's truly obscure like in the beginning.