Bitcoin Forum

Now value of transaction fee in fiat is unpredictable scaring commerce and blocking the whole bitcoin development.
Linking the fee through 5-10 biggest exchanges to consumer price index would solve a lot of problems and end a lot of discussions.

What are you talking about here and what you mean "unpredictable"  ? Fees are already low comparing to the other payment methods (0.0001 BTC = 0.05$) .

The miners decides on the mining fee that they want to include into their block. You can try to convince miners to have the fees bind to the average fees but that probably would never work. Transaction fees are still very small compared to other payment methods.

Fees are market driven.

Is that what you mean by "unpredictable"?

The exchange rate is also "unpredictable", even more so.

Do you want to try and artificially also set the exchange rate?

After the bitcoin price get doubled we also see fee to get doubled. I know it is market driven but how much bitcoin used to be fee when price was at 1k.
Is that same like today 10000 satoshi ?

I had issues with the tx fee quite a few times. Normally I pay a uniform transaction fee of BTC0.0001, no matter how much the size of my transaction. Sometimes, the transaction can be quite big (10 KB or 15 KB), and on such occasions, I had to wait up to 48 hours to get the 3 confirmations. This can be a serious issue in the future. As Bitcoin gets older, the coins will be traded more and more, and the size will get bigger and bigger for each transaction. In such cases, the miners will simply refuse to transmit the transaction, if we are paying only the standard transaction fee of BTC0.0001.

To pay from exchange it's 0.0005-0.001 BTC = $0.25-$0.5, for a rate of $5000/BTC it's $2.5-$5. Market rates could be manipulated and therefore the whole bitcoin game could be manipulated this way.

That should happen. If your TX is 10kb, you should be paying 0.001BTC as a fee (unlikely that it's going to happen unless you hoard LOADS of UXTOs. Miners want to utilize the 1mb that they are allowed to have with the best efficiency. If you have a fee of 0.0001BTC with a 10kb size and someone else have 0.00002BTC fee and 1 kb size, they would most likely be considering to accept the 1kb TX first.

There are always exception however. If every single miner dislike your address/coins/transaction, they can choose not to mine it no matter how much you pay. That's why we don't like mining centralisation.

The size will not increase no matter how much times it is "spent". (I can't go technical here.)

Then stop using that exchange. The minimum fee for nodes to relay will get lowered if that happens. After sometime, less people would be willing to pay that high of a transaction fee and miners would start to mine transactions with lower TX fees.

I'm afraid until 'miners would start to mine transactions with lower TX fees' the people would 'stop using that' bitcoin.

Lets face it. Bitcoin will never go from $400 to $5000 or even $1500 overnight. It would definitely take sometime and miners would start adjusting their minimum fee to accept. I've had 0.00001BTC/kb confirming smoothly recently, this shows that miners are accepting fees that are at that range. By the time price goes to $5000, block rewards would be lower. If the price rises, users won't be wanting to pay high fees and miners would want to maximise their revenue. Hence, they will start accepting lower fees in BTC.

It might have been understandable, if the 1 Mb limit was reached. But in all the cases, the miners refused to relay my transaction, despite the total size of all the transactions in that block remaining at 300 KB or 400 KB. This looks like absolute greed from their part. I was transacting just BTC0.10 or BTC0.15, so it was not logical for me to pay a higher fee.

I was under the impression that the default minimum relay fee was 0.00001BTC/kb but I forgot that it has been changed to 0.00005BTC/kb as default. Assuming that majority of the nodes doesn't change the settings, they will not relay your transaction. Without relaying your transactions, the miners would have less chances of seeing it. Nodes can change their settings to reduce load from mempool bloating. Miners have their own set of rules. If they were to accept TXes with less than 0.00001BTC/kb, they would be potentially including spam transactions into their block, causing blockchain bloating.

Sounds like you have way too many inputs to be having a 10kb TX. For a 0.1BTC TX(~$460), you can pay 0.001BTC ($0.46)fees or less. Try setting your payout frequency or consolidate your inputs often.

Fees aren't fixed forever, fees can change. If the price starts going up, then fees should start going down. You might end up paying the same value (purchasing power), just that the number displayed is different. So yes you could be paying a few dollars in fees if BTC was at $5000 but if those few dollars can only buy the same amount of stuff that the few cents we pay now, then there is practically no difference. It's called inflation.

They aren't "unpredictable". I'd go as far too say as it's easy to predict. You can check the mempool, find the txes that have the highest satoshi to byte ratio. Out you could use cointape. They do that for you.

What is the connection between the fees of fiat transactions and the development of bitcoin only one person can know. The author of main post. I try to make a possible connection between those two totally different worlds but cannot arrive. As i know bitcoin is produced and exist in a digital way. It is decentralized (so its produced by everyone will wont in every nook of the world). The fiat is paper or metal and its produced only by Central Banks in totally secrecy and only by few chosen people. The only place when they meet each other is the exchange. Where are both together but not in contact with each other, Because it is impossible. This is the whole story. And I when read it cannot find any kind of connection like that write by OP. So the only remaining thing to do for me is to ask the OP: Can you explain better what want to tell with your posts? Then, maybe will give some thoughts (if I will have such).

It would be a totally other thing if is talked about the transaction fee-s during the send of bitcoin. But even in this case I don't see any connection as such mentioned by OP. The bitcoin development is made by the developers and their work have nothing to do with the mentioned fee-s.

Fees are extremely low and have been revised periodically.
The fees weren't the same when Bitcoin was priced at $1 and when it was priced at $1000.  :)

I agree, that's why it is called the market: whatever "unpredictable" happens the market will adjust to it.

I think the value of transaction fee in fiat is the least thing we should worry about.

But why fee is now double in blockchain as price is not even near 1k. I think this increment is unncessary for now with only 450 range.

Miner makes the last call, they can choose to exclude whichever TX they want. Transaction volume is another factor, a block can only have maximum, 1mb of TX and a limited sigops. Attackers can use these factors to exploit and slow down transaction confirmation and force users to pay a higher fee. A block size increase would make the attack less effective/more expensive.

I understand what your saying, sometimes its hard to know what fee to pay to get your transaction into the next block, yeah  ;)

Pick a fee that you are happy to pay and stick with it every time, i usually pay a fee of 0.0003 which usually gets confirmed pretty quick.  like if you just include it in the price off what your paying then you soon get used to it.  its a small price to pay to be free from the financial banksters in my opinion, i now own my own money........  ;D

the current fees are very predictable. you are recommended to pay 1000 satoshi per every kb. it's easy and very cheap. it doesn't scare any one.

Consumer price index (CPI) is still available only in fiat so you need fiat to bitcoin exchange rate to calculate bitcoin CPI.
I would like to see transaction fee if not decreasing relatively to CPI then at least linked to it.

Sorry mda but for me seems that I am talking about the Sun and you are talking about the Moon. From internet I had only a few info about bitcoin CPI (about which to tell the right had not heard never before) that for more don't fit with each another. Not only this but are even totally different one from another. Other conception found at bitcointalk and other at bloomberg.

You can find those here:

http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2013-12-12/the-bitcoin-consumer-price-index-shows-massive-deflation (http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2013-12-12/the-bitcoin-consumer-price-index-shows-massive-deflation)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99080.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99080.0)

I don't know if you have another bitcoin CPI conception created by yourself (which might be totally different from the above) and published who knows where, but as for the above, none of them confirm what you have written in your post. I don't see any kind of connection between every bitcoin CPI above conception with the exchanges and for more with the fees of fiat transactions. And to tell the right I am not able even to create connection between most of concept-words mentioned at your post. Anyhow I don't know the work of an owner of exchange and I don't know in which way he or its specialist (according to you) "fix" the change from various fiat moneys and bitcoin. And then after this even "transaction fee" (only you know which one is this: fiat or bitcoin) mentioned by you in the second sentence. For me the kind of "job" of an exchange if way more simple. Leave and follow the relation supply/demand for every kind of "thing" (named otherwise "money") and earn fee for every transaction the other made. Period.

Anyhow, being not an expert in such things (and being convinced for the moment that have right in the above written by me) I 'm curious to learn more in this field. So, if you have time, please do a much more detailed explanation about you "theory" (like for children) in order that me understand my wrong thoughts and correct those. To not forget the connection between the fiat transactions and the development of bitcoin (about which, I'm sorry, I haven't found nothing in internet).

And to tell the right, at my previous post answered by you, I would add even these words: Please explain this pearl: "I would like to see transaction fee if not decreasing relatively to CPI then at least linked to it"

No problem, we all learn something here.
Think about CPI as a basket of goods and services.
So tomorrow one bitcoin transaction doesn't cost more goods and services than yesterday.
It seems only fair to me, after all bitcoin is still cutting edge, no?

I think the fee rate should be according to BTC price rather than a metal-hard default rate, that would maintain it in a reasonable limit of ~$0.01 rather than a free limit that can be very high.

You go from from one branch of the tree to another and for more using a logic that only you can understand. I know very well what is CPI. I write that I haven't heard the bitcoin CPI and not for the CPI. I am economist. But if I wouldn't have any knowledge about economy I can give a full page from Wikipedia which explain correctly what is the CPI. It was not this the problem of all your posts (or the aim of my post) but the making of connections from you without any kind of logic. In this post you speak totally about other things compared to the previous ones. I asked to many explanations in my post about various contradictions in your posts but you, as have made since now, go further with your Arabian language in an English Forum. Giving other 4 sentences with 4 words each. That are the most big explanations you can give. For more doing even the teacher. To laugh is the less that can be made here. Someone who create sentences without any meaning and give explanation with only 4 words want to learn someone who make a post with ten times more words with explanations about the (probable) absurdity of your posts.

This time will be more concise even I know already the kind of answer that I will have.

First: What is the connection between the fees of fiat transactions and the development of bitcoin? This was the first thing rejected by me. Explain clearly step by step this connection using right words and logic and not a bunch of words with 100 meanings or without meaning.

Second: What is the meaning of this phrase: "Consumer price index (CPI) is still available only in fiat so you need fiat to bitcoin exchange rate to calculate bitcoin CPI." What have to do an exchange with the CPI, with the fiat CPI and with the bitcoin CPI? Why an exchange must calculate the bitcoin CPI? What kind of bullshit are these? And for more what is the connection of this phrase with the first one written by you and repeated by me in the first point above. In which way this second phrase argues the first one. For me is totally without connection with that. What have to do an exchange with the transactions fee (of fiat or bitcoin) and for more with the development of bitcoin? For me is a total absurdity.

Third: What is the meaning of this phrase: "I would like to see transaction fee if not decreasing relatively to CPI then at least linked to it." For what transaction fee you speak? What is the meaning of this phrase? What connection exist between this phrase and the exchanges and the development of bitcoin?

To make a clarification. For me the development of bitcoin is the development of a software by one or more developers. What is for you?

Four: What is the logic of passing from the first sentence to the second one in those (2 and 3) written in your last post:

Think about CPI as a basket of goods and services.
So tomorrow one bitcoin transaction doesn't cost more goods and services than yesterday.

I bet that no one in this forum will be able to understand what want to tell with the above.

For me the above two sentences sounds like:

Tomorrow will be a sunny day.
Good, by the wife of the friend of my friend and her neighbor have already eat one apple and the bread.

So if you find connection in my sentences I can tell that I am unable to follow your intelligence used in your two above sentences.

Can you explain the logic and the meaning of everything asked by me at the above points analytically, exactly and fully as I do with my thoughts and my expressions? Or with your thoughts or sentences?

Sometimes if I do not care about the transaction fee, as long as it does not exceed 0.0001 it does not matter, as long as the transaction quickly and safely  :)

So now they are hiring camel herders to pollute bitcointalk.org, funny.

Please forget everything you know about "consumer price index", and change the software which gives you this totally useless piece of information. You don't need to know what "consumer price index" is or do to use BTC successfully. All you need to know is that transaction fees are below 10 cents.

The only thing that I feel about you is sorrow and compassion. A being unable to write more than 4 sentences each of which have not more than 4-5 words connected with each other without any kind of logic have the courage to make irony. But with who? With himself? Have meaning to do so seeing its posts and compare those with the second sentence of this post. It is not so. Have not such courage. So remain to use its unique and intelligent writing and thinking way of expression to insult the others. Only him know who are because there are not precise mentions. Only insults. Another sign of big courage. Anyhow something has achieved. Doing to the hypothetical one insulted by him a big damage. An irreparable one. The obligation to make a light smile seeing by whom is attacked.