Bitcoin Forum

Thank you China for sticking with Core! May the Chinese miners live long and much prosper! :)

http://puu.sh/mE41p/ebf157311b.jpg

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"Yesterday, Jeff(Garzik?), a developer of Bitcoin Classic, took a flight to Beijing from New York, to attend a meeting with the Chinese Bitcoin businesses, including Haobtc, OKCoin, Bitmain, Bither, LIGHTNINGASIC, with the aim of gaining further support for Bitcoin Classic. When talking about Bitcoin Classic's releases, Jeff stated that a hard fork is needed for the upgrading and improvement of the source code(the original Chinese are weasel words and possibly syntactically incorrect), yet(and) without providing a clear long-term roadmap(about what lies ahead of the 2MB increase?), which led to almost universal dissatisfaction(correction: the author later edited his article to change the "almost universal" to "some" , apparently due to protest from one attendant who did not disapprove) among those present, whom further expressed their withdrawal of support for Bitcoin Classic, and the need to reach a wider consensus within the community before a decision can be made."

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/41zgn6/translation_of_an_excerpt_from_an_article/

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Bitcoin Magazine journalist and Coin Desk contributor Aaron van Wirdum

http://puu.sh/mDZX1/4109d6dd81.png (https://twitter.com/AaronvanW/status/690120783281156097)

https://twitter.com/AaronvanW/status/690120783281156097

Related: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1335742.0

ToomimCoin REKT

What long-term consequences could this decision have for the speed of transactions when the time comes and it's nearing or surpassing the current cap?

Two words: Fee Market

as long as i remember they were not so happy about the changes and the bigger block sizes (something to do with their bandwidth) and now i think because the fact that they control more than half of the hashrate (more than 70% combined) they are going to be an strong opposing force.

fee market? either make more paper wallet to evade the transaction fees, or start to accept altcoins to support the demand. lmao.
we don't just stick with bitcoin, that's why altcoin is here to be useful. :)

So as a newbie that's still learning about bitcoin. Is this a good or bad thing?

I was expecting this news to show up. With china leading in the mining space for Bitcoins and most of them supporting to stick to Bitcoin core, there isn't much hope for Bitcoin Classic and XT.

China's inertia is always their undoing.

The Chinese people are intelligent, kind, united, and freedom loving.

What many here obviously don't understand is how a people that has been repressed for centuries yearns for liberation like a drowning man seeks shore. And they aren't going to be fooled quite as easily by the "Classic" tricks of establishment rule.

Bitcoin can only survive, united at its "Core". The Chinese miners have wisely made the correct decision once again.

I am standing strong behind the consensus as defined by Satoshi Nakamoto.

Long live Bitcoin!

It's so fascinating to me that there is a small collection of leaders for a supposedly free decentralized currency flying around the world to discuss the future direction of that currency with a small concentrated group of power brokers. Hurray for decentralization!

Expenses for a trip like that would cost at least a couple thousand dollars (last time I went to Shanghai airfare alone was just over a grand).  I wonder what "decentralized" consortium paid the expenses?

The Chinese obviously see the benefits of soft forks and also what things like SegWit can do for this technology. They have been supporters of Bitcoin Core long before this

visit any way, but Jeff just made sure the people with the most say {biggest hash rate} gets what they want. Any country in the world, can do what they did. If the USA or

any other nation for that matter, stopped buying Billions of dollars worth of weapons and used that to establish Bitcoin farms, they could have easily be in that position and they

would have been calling the shots.  ;D

I think this is a victory for common sense and for progressing Bitcoin sensibly forward.

长命富贵


:D
(a Chinese blessing for our Bitcoin baby)

Anyone else concerned about the potential for collusion here?

well it's all about consensus after all, if the consensus is in the majority chinese from germany, usa or any other country is not important

miners are still not the only important part of bitcoin hopefully, merchants have their importance too and they are not 60%+ chinese...

It was well pointed out by BitFury's CEO Bitcoin was never designed to be a PayPal (wherever that idea came from I don't know as it isn't actually what Satoshi had written in his white paper).

Bitcoin requires "confirmations" by design (which is why Satoshi never advocated using zero confirmations) and these confirmations take time.

So Bitcoin *is* a settlement network - but it is one unlike any other before (you don't need a license to use it nor expensive hardware). Let's appreciate what Bitcoin is rather than support people trying to change it into something that it isn't.

It is not surprising at all that Chinese miners would opt to go with Core. They all have 'here and now' mentality, they don't care much about bitcoin future, or growing the network adoption or consumer base.
Every solution increasing blocksize is not good for them because it will diminish theirs earnings.

True.
Does anyone have proof that these minors aren't mining for their government?
Why is China anti bitcoin (merchants, spending btc etc.) yet huge mining farms are perfectly fine?

Not only chinese, but I think that most people are likely to stick with the thing that has even been working ok for them while it keeps working, unless they are forced to change. Some people are prone to novelty (i.e. update their OS whenever a new version comes up), but when it is a matter of money, most are likely to stay the same and not risk what they have known to work.

Seriously - are you that paranoid and racist?

The Chinese government has had basically nothing to do with Bitcoin apart from preventing exchanges using banks for quite a while (that ceased a few months back).

Its main concern is the movement of RMB outside of China (which every corrupt official tries to do once they get rich).

BTCC (about the biggest and best known Chinese exchange) has an American CEO. So you think he is in cahoots with the Chinese government because he "looks Chinese"?

Because they hate western imperialist dogs and are going to get their revenge on us by taking over Bitcoin and making us all use substandard plastic products designed to fail by selling them to Walmart.

Sure and they have nothing to do with government sponsored cyber trade secret theft either.
Unless you can provide proof then the question is still valid. Again, why are they ok with mining but against bitcoin?

Then how about you provide proof rather than insisting that everyone else needs to do so?

You are just making vague and mostly silly claims - the Chinese government had nothing to do with this meeting or what those who were there said (you do realise this or don't you?).

Unless you can provide proof that the Chinese government owns mining companies you are just clutching at straws.

This is stupid to be honest. You aren't looking at it the right way. Not wanting a block size increase now is precisely the correct long term vision, because you stick with a solid core until we have LN, then we don't need to raise block size again, unless the technology all over the world is advanced enough that everyone could run a node with their computer if you raised it.

As far as I can tell, the source is a post by HaoBTC's CEO. On reddit, "KoKansei" claims reading the post and the discussion, you find the writer saying it's his personal opinions, not HaoBTC's official position he was expressing. (https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/41zk79/chinese_pools_withdraw_their_support_for_classic/cz6etuv)

I don't understand Chinese, maybe someone who can, can opine on what seems to be factual and what opinion in the source:
https://www.bikeji.com/t/3144

sry smallblockers: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.msg13632610#msg13632610

Is there any business in communist China that the government doesn't control?  Is there anyone in communist China with money that the government doesn't condone?

It seems the Chinese communist government is nothing but a state capitalist monopoly with the goal of suppressing any dissent whether it be political or economic.

When Satoshi was talking about buying porn and using vending machines, he wasn't thinking about a high-class settlement layer for the hoy-polloi. It seems he didn't know what we'd end up using Bitcoin for.

The government has little to do with the vast majority of businesses in China (and in fact most small businesses don't even pay tax).

One thing you should learn about Chinese is that they rarely co-operate with each other (which is why they are well known not to work well in teams).

Perhaps you should actually come and visit to "see for yourself" that there aren't troops in jackboots walking around controlling what is going on.  ::)

I heard that is a fake news and the fact that someone is spreading fake news indicated that the political campaign has entered china  ;D

Miners might not want to change because a 1MB fixed block forever will make them rich, especially now the hard competition already made their profit very thin

However, I see this as a future problem that miners overtake the control of bitcoin and there is no way to fight against it

Imagine that world government have implemented new rules to regulate all large mining pools so that they only can process non blacklisted transactions (blockchain analysis is the new trend), and all the transactions must be traceable to its owner with name and address, this will make the trace highly practical from AML and KYC point of view. As a bitcoin user, you just can not do anything about it, because all your transactions are processed by government regulated mining nodes

You can change to another algo like skrypt, then again those large mining pools will be regulated if there are just a few, and with a lower hash cost coin, the value of the coin also goes down until it reaches mining cost

So it is very important to decentralize the mining, since controlling the mining nodes is much more effective than control the other part of bitcoin ecosystem, it is equal to control the central bank of a monetary system. We know that central bank is independent from the government, in this case, large mining pools have no way to reach that kind of independence

Hear Hear!

The PRC is the very definition of state capitalism.  No great enterprise is undertaken without the direct consent of the government.  Small business isn't a threat to state capitalism and thus is left to its own devices.  Anything which threatens the monopoly of the state is destroyed.  They only deploy the "jackboots" as a last resort.

The thing that I do see here, is a lot of misinformation and a lack of communication going around. I like the fact that CIYAM can contest most of these false claims and comments. I would have wanted to see some more Chinese miners coming on here and explaining their side too.

There are a lot of conspiracy theories going around, and these things tend to cause friction and trust issues. If I was a investor from the western world and I hear that the gears of a technology are mostly operated by a traditional Eastern Communist country, I will have some concerns.

On the other hand, if I were a investor from the other side, and I see that the system development and maintenance are mostly being dominated by a group of Capitalist western countries, I would also have concerns.

Communication coming from both sides will decrease the gap between this divide and the Core group are doing just that.  

They must have thougjt it was Josh Garza trying to sell them a hashlet





https://marshallstokes.com/wp-content/uploads/gaw-garza-crypto-mining-farm-datacenter.jpg

Well I seriously doubt that any private company can just say build a freeway without government consent in the US either (i.e. all governments control what can and cannot be done by major companies).

If the Chinese government has been taking over mining operations can you please show the evidence of this (because major players that are owned and controlled by Americans aren't complaining about this)?

It is not the subject of current block size increase debase. Very interesting idea! if some governments are involving at bitcoin mining, I can say bitcoin's price will be doubled in short time. Then the hash power will be dramatically increasing as well.

you sound happy they went with core

yes their is and cctv to go with as well as the most sophistigated sat coverage
 

Tracking name and address through the blockchain would be incredibly dangerous... Would you want to be associated with say 10,000 bitcoins with full details on the blockchain on where to steal them?

Something like that will never work and if nothing is done to prevent something like that from happening, everybody will abandon ship. Maybe litecoin will get some attention than.

Ok then, we will just see what happens. I'm getting tired of this blocksize debate.

If China sticks with 1MB block size and BTC lifts off there will be full blocks and transactions will be delayed, eventually not get through. Something is going to change then. Either the BTC price will tank or a solution will be found. Until then, the fees may be higher and the Chinese will earn a bit more, but growth is going to be limited to ...an exclusive circle. All in all, I would say this will make the mid to long-term perspectives for BTC price conservative to bearish.

Doesn't seggregated witness fix this problem? I guess it will be ready after few months.

Average confirmation time has not increased, so there is no emergency.

https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-confirmation-time?timespan=2year&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=

IMHO we can wait for the seggregated witness.

Then the issue s been resolved. Cause mining pools and large miners are the ones who call the shots.

So any other discussion about this is pointless.

Government will do exactly like they did with exchanges, first define mining pools as a money transmitter service thus require license to run (I think BTCGUID was closed due to this requirement), and when pools get that license they become a financial institution, thus must follow AML and KYC rules, e.g. all the miners connecting to them will have to submit their id-card and el/tele bill to living address....

The development of public infrastructure is centrally planned in all countries because it is deemed a necessity for the common good.  I am referring to state intervention in regular businesses with the intent to monopolize opportunities for a select few at the expense of the many.  This is perpetrated under the ruse of it being done for the national interest.  The PRC speaks out of both sides of its mouth.  It advocates a policy of international cooperation, but pursues a policy of international monopolization.  Anyone who truly understands the objectives of a communism state realizes that state capitalism is the end goal.

Seriously you are confused.

Until Deng (who had been imprisoned by Mao because of his capitalist ideals) China was not pursuing capitalism at all - so are you saying that the objectives of a communist state only started in 1980?
(and what exactly what do you label that which preceded Deng - "pretend communism"?)

Other well known communist states are still *not capitalist* (compared to China which is perhaps the only really capitalist "supposedly communist" country in the world) so again - what you are saying just is silly.

I can only guess that you don't know much at all about Carl Marx and his theories and what they led to politically.

Unconsciously, China has become an important bitcoin
But it is not so important, after all, China's contribution to the core is not much

Indeed - as far as the coding goes there is very little input from Chinese developers (that is a whole other story which is the lack of creativity in China).

What the XT/UB/Classic takeover attempts by the American backers have failed to understand is the Chinese culture - so their efforts to convince groups to co-operate with them will all fail (as they are now finding out).

Core wins not because it is actually preferred but simply because it is what was there first and the Chinese cannot agree amongst themselves to anything else (nor to create any alternative).

They already realized that we can solve the blocksize issue without having to increase the size of the Blocks.
The Emercoin project introduced a new tecnique that reducxes the size of the transaction, reducing the need of bigger blocks.

Why is it so goddamned hard to get straightforward facts out of China?  It's not another planet.

I'm profoundly uninterested in Chinese opinions on this subject. I think it's very unfortunate that potential innovation is stymied by a bunch of folks who effectively contribute nothing.

Clearly then they cannot contribute anything (as you are uninterested in their opinions) - that is basically the same kind of mantra that used to me said of women (by men) in the western world many years ago.

:D

I think they already have chosen to take action. It's not a "real" block size fix but it sort of has the same outcome. It doesn't need a hard fork. It doesn't break any current consensus rules because it manipulates the coinbase transaction's input. They are going to split off witness data to a separate tree instead of mining it in the block. This should allow them to have another couple of years to fuck around and not develop a permanent solution. lol

Hmm. Maybe that does make me a big old sexist then. Either way at this early stage of the game it would be nice to see a more unified interest in making progress from all sides rather than sitting back and milking. That's fine when things are rather more ossified but it's still in the fragile stages.

Looks like Mr.Weirdum got his act together:

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/f-pool-chinese-pools-will-stick-with-bitcoin-core-1453395328

The article has been updated.

For the noobs asking if this is a bad or good thing; this is the short of it.

Blockchain technology will not and can not work without something like Bitcoin at its core to insure its security; the big legacy banks were told this but they refused to admit it (at lest not publicly).

so...

The Banks were like "we don't need you, will build our own network" and went and highered armies of tech savvy engineers to build the impossible.  They failed...

and now after many months of secret back door meetings they are back poking around our community and spreading wads of money to anyone willing to turn to the dark side.

Bitcoin developers, luminaries and figure heads are being lobbied by people with very deep pockets; this is the 3rd and 4th failed attempt to hardfork the Bitcoin network into something they see as more accommodating to their needs. This lobbying will not stop, I have a feeling more Bitcoin icons will in the coming months and years turn like so many others have and begin praising the attributes, the benefits of larger blocks.  

Bitcoin was never meant to be free, Freedom is not free and nether is Bitcoin. No decentralized ledger can be secured for free. The Bitcoin network subsidies (block rewards) are running out and we need to begin the hard process of paying for our network. If Bitcoin can not survive on a fee based system then it will fail.

Can I get paid for this?

Link please.

I wanna buy a boat!

http://funnypicturesplus.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/fat-man-boat.jpg

this was and one of the reasons that Hearn attack chinese miners. The other reason is that he is a racist.

Yes, you definitely can get paid for this. Many people do.

You need a link to understand that maybe there are some people/organizations that don't like/trust bitcoin's disruptive nature and would prefer to have it co-opted or destroyed? That's funny and sad!

Look into it, then buy your boat.

Well it was more likely that he was getting paid to criticize other miners in an attempt to get them to either quit or switch their blockchain, but it is fairly obvious that the method used by Hearn didn't work and now we have the scenario that we have before us right now.

Its more entertaining to see that he's had his project fail, and now its not even gaining support from the people he needs the most.

It's HaoBTC's COO but yeah he only claimed to speak for himself and not in the name of the company. He claims that he wants to stick with core and offers solutions to the problems we're facing now: (1) let small transactions happen offchain and only big transactions happen onchain, and (2) increase fees.
Globally this article doesn't offer much new stuff. All this was already known. It's just that of course people don't want to see any increase in fees  ::)

Also, he's not "the Chinese miners" but just one Chinese mining company's COO expressing a personal opinion. I hope Aaron van Wirdum didn't use at as a source when claiming that "Chinese miners" were sticking with Core, because in this case it means shit.

Fifty is the new forty, and Gavin is the new Hearn. Mark my words, "they" got to him. He's their puppet now.

Unfortunately, you are the one who is "seriously confused".  Please, go enlighten yourself. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism)  There is no difference between State Socialism and State Capitalism.


Carl Marx...  seriously.... is this a joke?

And from that:


So perhaps rather than 1980 I should have written 1976 - are we quibbling over 4 years now or are you just wanting to argue about terminology rather than actual practice?

(you seem to me to be the type who "just wants to win an argument" so I'm pretty sure I'm wasting my time responding)

Maybe they just enjoy using core more than anything else. I really don't see why they would still use core though.

You are free to have your own opinion on the true objectives of Mao's revolution.  It is my opinion and that of Vladimir Lenin that the "socialist revolution" in the communist sense is to establish "nothing but state capitalist monopoly made to benefit the whole people."

Well - my opinion is actually based upon speaking to actual (and average) Chinese people who lived through the time of Mao (and none of which remember that time fondly) rather than on some Wikipedia pages.

And back to your whole point about this - if indeed the Chinese government is in control of Bitcoin because mining is a large/significant business operating in China then you must accept that the Chinese government is in control of Apple computers (and of computer hardware in general).

Hmm... wait - the Chinese make other things too don't they (like nearly all of the clothes people wear and toys they buy for their kids, etc.)

So again - what is your point? That the majority of manufacturing in the world today is under the control of the Chinese government?

Bitcoin core is the most simple solution and the one which is easiest to implement. So I see no problem with this, in my mind, BTC dev team should stop arguing for alternatives, implement this and business as usual.

My point is that it is naive to believe that the Chinese communist government doesn't control all aspects of mining within its political domain because the entire point of communism, by its very definition, is to establish a "state monopoly".

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-miners-bitcoin-classic-scaling-debate-evolves

So as they control all aspects of computer manufacturing then the same thing applies to that and to clothing manufacturing, etc.

OMG - the world is controlled by a "state monopoly".  ::)

Hi, ;) where do you know about China?  I think Mao is a great person, if in the present, he is not

and, a lot of people do not understand the political, but also has many people to pursue freedom of speech and democracy, people around the world need democracy (I can't find a developed country is socialist) but you know, I don't want to talk too much about politics, I am a Chinese

He lives in China. lol

;D What? Bitcoin community has a lot of Chinese people, which is not surprising

Imo, all industry located in the PRC is a state monopoly controlled by the government.  You may not have an issue with this, but anyone concerned about the state of free enterprise in the world should.  Monopoly is the antithesis to free enterprise.

That doesn't appear to be the view of the US or any other western government (and as they are democracies then I assume it isn't the opinion of the majority of their citizens either).

Free trade agreements being a very good example of the fact that western powers have no problem at all with it.

So it appears to be yourself against the majority of western citizens in the world. :)

It wouldn't be the first time that the majority is uninformed.

I don't see how uninformed got into it (thought you would just sneak that in did you)?

I don't presume that the majority of western citizens are so uninformed (although presumably you are accusing me of being uninformed along with everyone else).

Everybody and family knows that all chinese and all chinese pools have signed a blood oath with Core... right? It's in their best interest.

They / You are either uninformed as to the objectives of a communist state or have a different political persuasion than I do.  Imo, state monopoly is not desirable.

Well as I read your Wikipedia link and have not made a single comment about the "objectives of a communist" state it is rather hard to see how I (and the majority of western citizens as well let's not forget) are so uninformed.

I think that the objective of any state is power/control over its citizens and I would also assume that the majority of western citizens would also have a similar opinion (although unlike you I don't wish to put words in their mouth).

Perhaps you just like to think that you are more informed than everyone else?

I don't hold it against them.  It is hard to interpret the doublespeak coming out of the PRC when they preach of international cooperation, but pursue policies of international monopolization.  Every state attempts to maintain rule of law over its citizens.  The difference is if the laws of the state are codified by a representative government or by monopolists.

I see - so you do think that you are more informed than everyone else - glad we cleared that up.

As I am not as well informed as you I shall let you get back to informing people how uninformed they are without my further distraction. :)

I am more informed than those who naively believe that the objective of communism is a socialist utopia or that the Chinese communist government doesn't run a state monopoly on all industries of any importance.

Good article. I see the AAron article just as FUD, so common in Bitcoin world. It means just one or two Chinese pools still supports Bitcoin Core, others Bitcoin Classic. Otherwise we would see more sources + pool statements supporting Bitcoin Classic they changed their support back to Bitcoin Core already... Anyway majority of Bitcoin business understands the change needs to be done, I saw only Ledger walet still supporting Bitcoin Core, not much impressive.