Bitcoin Forum

Economy => Marketplace => Topic started by: mtgox on October 10, 2010, 03:21:18 PM



Title: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on October 10, 2010, 03:21:18 PM
Well PayPal decided to drop our account because of too many chargebacks. The funds in there now are frozen for 180 days. So we can't do any more paypal funding or withdrawing. 

But not to worry... I should have another payment processor set up shortly.

I'm also calling them on monday to hopefully get things unfrozen faster.

Anyway sorry guys, but don't worry things will be sorted out shortly.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: jimbobway on October 10, 2010, 03:49:10 PM
Thx for the update.  Bitcoin will take over PayPal anyway.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: TTBit on October 10, 2010, 03:51:41 PM
So a bunch of babies who can't stand up and be a man and pay for their charges is ruining it for all of us. Well played jerks - you beat the system and 'won'.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: idev on October 10, 2010, 03:58:43 PM
Ah man, now our funds are tired up for 160 days. >:(


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: S3052 on October 10, 2010, 04:19:56 PM
while the tying up does not help to buy goods and services with BTCs, we can use it to our advantage:

BTCs is the BEST INVESTMENT !!!

Just look at the rally over the past 3 months +1000%

I am going to buy more now!


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: kiba on October 10, 2010, 05:08:02 PM
Bitch! We're going to get our revenge on paypal by making bitcoin the best currency ever!

So those damn paypal dudes will be forced to pay attention to us.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on October 10, 2010, 05:31:44 PM
idev: your funds won't be tied up for 180 days. I only kept a portion in paypal for this very reason so as soon as I have another payment method you can withdraw your gox USD again.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: BioMike on October 10, 2010, 05:33:45 PM
BTCs is the BEST INVESTMENT !!!

Just look at the rally over the past 3 months +1000%

What goes up...

That and the first bitcoin bubble?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: kiba on October 10, 2010, 05:41:01 PM
Good to know that not everything is in paypal.

However, will you begin to charge for mtgox services? It would be comforting to know that mtgox can keep running after some catastrophe. I mean, you are fronting all the risks for providing such a liquid market.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: twobitcoins on October 10, 2010, 05:51:09 PM
What about USD withdrawals by check?  I thought you used to support that, but the site won't allow any USD withdrawals to be requested now.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: S3052 on October 10, 2010, 05:57:09 PM
it would be good to have some options to add funds established FAST, as the BTC price is rallying again and I want to buy more


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: kiba on October 10, 2010, 05:58:30 PM
The first ever bank run.

People are buying bitcoins now that dollars are unwithdrawn-able for the time being.

I think that prove bitcoins are hell lot safer than dollars.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: sturle on October 10, 2010, 06:01:12 PM
while the tying up does not help to buy goods and services with BTCs, we can use it to our advantage:

BTCs is the BEST INVESTMENT !!!

Just look at the rally over the past 3 months +1000%

I am going to buy more now!
Irony?  The rally was primarily on Mt. Gox, and you can't get any money in to Mt. Gox to buy BTC for.  And what happens to your funds if the current rally was financed by fraud and Mt. Gox loses?

If I were mtgox, I would freeze all BTC bought with PayPal money for at least 180 days.  The current rally was obviously driven by one or very few individuals who didn't care much about the cost in USD, and why care if you buy with stolen money?  It doesn't make sense to buy the market up from 0.06 to 0.09 in a few seconds, when you could buy the same amount of BTC for much less by spreading the bids over a few hours or days.  There is always a robot or two which continously pushes the asks back down, along with traders who try to find a sweet spot between different asks and bids.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: S3052 on October 10, 2010, 06:10:30 PM
I can only speak for myself.

All my funds are coming from me and it is all correct.

Some comments go into the typical direction of people being pessimistic within a rally of prices.

It is quite sensible to buy when prices rise. This is a consequence of having more buyers than sellers. If the majority of people did not believe in BTC, they'd sell now - but they don't.

As long as most people don't believe in the rally, the rally will go on.

Who can ever say what the right price for BTCs is? It can be 0.1$, 1$, 10$, 100$

It just depends in what the right equilibrium is for a certain period of time.

BTC get more and more widespread every day.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: jgarzik on October 10, 2010, 06:15:32 PM
I can only speak for myself.

All my funds are coming from me and it is all correct.

Some comments go into the typical direction of people being pessimistic within a rally of prices.

It is quite sensible to buy when prices rise. This is a consequence of having more buyers than sellers. If the majority of people did not believe in BTC, they'd sell now - but they don't.

Buying BTC is also the only way to get money out of mtgox.

I wouldn't read too much into the rally if/until it's matched by other markets.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Bimmerhead on October 10, 2010, 08:27:26 PM
mtgox can you give us a bit more information?  Were these chargebacks related mostly to trades in the last 3 days?  Were these brand new account holders?  Did they 'get away' with their bitcoins, or will you be able to repossess them because they are still on your server?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: ribuck on October 10, 2010, 08:55:41 PM
mtgox, I would warn you about the following scenario:

The PayPal scammers will wait 30 days, withdraw their BTC, and only THEN will they do a chargeback through PayPal.

Therefore, you probably need to block BTC withdrawals for longer than 30 days, for BTC bought from any PayPal address that has not previously had a successful PayPal transaction.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on October 10, 2010, 09:05:36 PM
The bulk of the rally seemed legitimate. I'd say only 5-10% was fraud.

Bimmerhead: Yeah I can repo their BTC so it isn't really a big deal. Just a hassle. In fact I'll make money if the price stays this high.

ribuck: These people are using stolen credit cards so the real card holder complains before 30 days. Anyway the point is moot since I can't use paypal anymore.



Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on October 10, 2010, 09:21:56 PM
twobit: I can't issue checks anymore since I no longer live in the US.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Babylon on October 11, 2010, 04:41:17 AM
I'm a little concerned about this since I don't have any other online money service accounts aside from paypal.  Not so much as far as getting my money out, I can take it out as bitcoins, but as far as putting more money in to buy more bitcoins.

I get my paypal money from doing tarot card readings on the phone, I don't really have the option of receiving my pament in any other form.  If I can't find an easy easy way to turn paypal into bitcoin I may have to start trying to encourage people to auction some of it on e-bay.  (hopefully with a buy it now that is not too far from the going rate)


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mpkomara on October 11, 2010, 05:03:45 AM
"I get my paypal money from doing tarot card readings on the phone"

ahh-- so you're the one using paypal to steal people's money. ;)


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: doublec on October 11, 2010, 05:07:01 AM
I get my paypal money from doing tarot card readings on the phone, I don't really have the option of receiving my pament in any other form.  If I can't find an easy easy way to turn paypal into bitcoin I may have to start trying to encourage people to auction some of it on e-bay.  (hopefully with a buy it now that is not too far from the going rate)
buybitcoins.com still shows as accepting paypal payments for bitcoin purchasing.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: caveden on October 11, 2010, 07:49:22 AM
Isn't there any sort of insurance to cover these "chargebacks"?
Couldn't mtgox demand them for new users of insecure form of payments?

By the way, I thought that credit card payments already had such insurances "embedded"... I think in Brazil they have, at least I think I heard so... now I'm not sure.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: FreeMoney on October 11, 2010, 08:20:55 AM
I get my paypal money from doing tarot card readings on the phone, I don't really have the option of receiving my pament in any other form.  If I can't find an easy easy way to turn paypal into bitcoin I may have to start trying to encourage people to auction some of it on e-bay.  (hopefully with a buy it now that is not too far from the going rate)
buybitcoins.com still shows as accepting paypal payments for bitcoin purchasing.

It doesn't show anything to me, are you getting the site? I just get a question about my country in a form that doesn't work.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: doublec on October 11, 2010, 08:58:12 AM
It doesn't show anything to me, are you getting the site? I just get a question about my country in a form that doesn't work.

The form didn't work for me but my browser (Firefox 3.6) popped up to say that the site wanted to request my location via the HTML geolocation API so I used that. That took me to the next page requesting my email. Then I get an email with a link that takes me to the site where you can buy coins. It's a complex process and I'm guessing will put a lot of people off using it.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: S3052 on October 11, 2010, 06:16:22 PM
Any news on the original subject?

How can someone help to enable MtGox to open a funding system again?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: MoonShadow on October 11, 2010, 06:29:00 PM
I get my paypal money from doing tarot card readings on the phone, I don't really have the option of receiving my pament in any other form.  If I can't find an easy easy way to turn paypal into bitcoin I may have to start trying to encourage people to auction some of it on e-bay.  (hopefully with a buy it now that is not too far from the going rate)

Why don't you just start telling your clients that you also accept Bitcoin for your services, and let them figure out how to get them in their own way?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: kiba on October 11, 2010, 08:43:25 PM
What is the timetable for a new payment processor to go up?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: jorgen on October 11, 2010, 11:25:30 PM
I find www.click2pay.com could be a good candidate as a payment processor.

Here is copy from their site:

The advantage is all yours.

Thousands of merchants worldwide trust CLICK2PAY.

For good reason: we represent your interests when it comes to payment on the Internet. We check identity, credit, protect you against fraud and guarantee secure payment receipt.

To do this, we take over your payment management and offer you the greatest transparency in the form of individual reports, which you can define according to your wishes.

Individual statements fulfil all of your needs.

Our system is easy to integrate technically and its look can be tailored to suit your Web design. This way, CLICK2PAY is perceived as an integrated service from one supplier — you.

Our team will support you step by step during the implementation.
The advantages at a glance:

    * No declined payments
    * Extensive management and reporting functions
    * All common payment functions
    * Individual statements and payments
    * Easy technical integration into your Website
    * Adaptation of the look to your design
    * Secure data transfer
    * Versatile marketing support



Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Babylon on October 12, 2010, 04:45:11 AM
"I get my paypal money from doing tarot card readings on the phone"

ahh-- so you're the one using paypal to steal people's money. ;)

I have one satisfied customer who has paid for a reading directly with bitcoins actually.  I prefer using bitcoins because then the customer does not have to pay until after the reading. 

I'm confident enough in my product to take cash after delivery.  Can you say the same thing?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Babylon on October 12, 2010, 04:46:11 AM
I get my paypal money from doing tarot card readings on the phone, I don't really have the option of receiving my pament in any other form.  If I can't find an easy easy way to turn paypal into bitcoin I may have to start trying to encourage people to auction some of it on e-bay.  (hopefully with a buy it now that is not too far from the going rate)
buybitcoins.com still shows as accepting paypal payments for bitcoin purchasing.

Last I checked buybitcoins had 4 coins.  And had that amount for a long time.  I am pretty sure that site is dead.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Babylon on October 12, 2010, 04:50:08 AM
I get my paypal money from doing tarot card readings on the phone, I don't really have the option of receiving my pament in any other form.  If I can't find an easy easy way to turn paypal into bitcoin I may have to start trying to encourage people to auction some of it on e-bay.  (hopefully with a buy it now that is not too far from the going rate)

Why don't you just start telling your clients that you also accept Bitcoin for your services, and let them figure out how to get them in their own way?

Because then I would be diverting business from the company that I read through.  That's against my agreement with the company.

I can advertise independently, and have been trying to build up a bitcoin clientelle as well, but I don't have my own independent website set up yet. The potential income from the bitcoin market is pretty small since the overlap with people who desire tarot card readings is, currently, really tiny.  Unless there's another tarot card reader for bitcoin out there I don't know about who got the other potential customers.  Not enough clientelle to justify hosting fees.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: azazar on October 12, 2010, 08:18:11 AM
I think, that Paypal is just a beginning. Anonymity attracts scammers.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: The Madhatter on October 12, 2010, 08:39:08 AM
Anonymity attracts scammers.

It isn't all bad. It also attracts the privacy conscientious. :)


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: sturle on October 12, 2010, 08:45:37 AM
as soon as I have another payment method you can withdraw your gox USD again.
How about getting an € bank account in Europe and restore service to european users?  Transfers between € accounts are free, and the risk of cashback is very low.  USD users can also transfer money to the account for a fee, and you can transfer to other countries for a fee.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: jorgen on October 12, 2010, 11:59:42 AM
as soon as I have another payment method you can withdraw your gox USD again.
How about getting an € bank account in Europe and restore service to european users?  Transfers between € accounts are free, and the risk of cashback is very low.  USD users can also transfer money to the account for a fee, and you can transfer to other countries for a fee.

+1


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Timo Y on October 12, 2010, 01:02:46 PM
Quote
How about getting an € bank account in Europe and restore service to european users?  Transfers between € accounts are free, and the risk of cashback is very low.  USD users can also transfer money to the account for a fee, and you can transfer to other countries for a fee.

Getting a bank account in Europe is very difficult if you are not a legal resident. I presume the MtGox owner lives in the US outside the Eurozone.

The only place I know where a foreigner can simply walk into a bank with their passport and open an EUR account on the same day, is Switzerland.  They still make sure that the barriers are high. Last time I checked with UBS it required a minimum deposit of CHF 50,000 for these non-resident accounts.
  


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: MoonShadow on October 12, 2010, 06:33:08 PM
Quote
How about getting an € bank account in Europe and restore service to european users?  Transfers between € accounts are free, and the risk of cashback is very low.  USD users can also transfer money to the account for a fee, and you can transfer to other countries for a fee.

Getting a bank account in Europe is very difficult if you are not a legal resident. I presume the MtGox owner lives in the US outside the Eurozone.

The only place I know where a foreigner can simply walk into a bank with their passport and open an EUR account on the same day, is Switzerland.  They still make sure that the barriers are high. Last time I checked with UBS it required a minimum deposit of CHF 50,000 for these non-resident accounts.
  

Perhaps some enterprising (likely meaning German) European could enter into a pack with the owner of MtGox, and either function as a European partner or get a copy of his site code to run a parrallel market in Europe.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: S3052 on October 12, 2010, 06:58:26 PM
I am buying bitcoins via ebay and I will transfer funds to the sellers bankaccount as long as it is within Europe.

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280574586285 (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280574586285)
just click on it and we will be in contact


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mcjohn on October 12, 2010, 07:37:26 PM
Hi all, goto http://www.exchangezone.com/ and register a username - then create a ticket and request them to add Bitcoin to their exchange mediums (they currently let members exchange USD: Liberty Reserve, Alert Pay, Bank Wire, c-gold, MoneyBookers, MoneyGram, Neteller, Paypal  >:(, Pecunix, Western Union; then EUR: Liberty Reserve, MoneyGram, Western Union; WmE & WmZ through their ESCROW!!! services as an auction between the mediums of exchange for the members.

Refer to http://www.bitcoinwatch.com/ and http://www.bitcoin.org when making a ticket request to them to add Bitcoin to their exchange mediums.

And really MtGox, paypal  ??? is not the only payment processor out there - when will we be getting an update on what your timeframe is for adding another payment processor (as it seems that the finality of MtGox transactions depends on MtGox's payment processor).  Paying out legitimately bought bitcoins to reputable username buyers  immediately should definitely be a consideration (discriminately tested with legitimate successful past transactions in mind - past business trust relationship).

Should we MtGox bitcoin buyers stucked with bitcoins in MtGox not all start to consider requesting a MtGox chargeback from Paypal >:( for having to wait 30 days for product delivery (if it will be 30 days and not 180 days thrown around now - MtGox, business should have a trust relationship - act discriminately and settle transactions with historical trusted parties)  You can send cash wire transfers, or the like, to the poor (ALL) legitimate bitcoin sellers with the (portion of the) money YOU have withdrawn from Paypal from most places in the world (which Paypal could not put a hold on like you have stated in your prior post.)  I would say giving MtGox 7 days from today (before requesting a chargeback from Paypal for non-delivery of product)  to clarify all of this mess would be reasonable.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: S3052 on October 12, 2010, 07:56:22 PM
done!


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: nelisky on October 12, 2010, 08:04:02 PM
done!

Good for you!

What was it you did again?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Drifter on October 12, 2010, 08:18:19 PM
The problem is finding a funding method in which would make the average person want to get involved. While there are many systems that do not allow chargebacks, Paypal was one of the most widely accepted online payment processors for the internet. Mentioning Bitcoins can be exchanged for Paypal is a big plus in luring people in. But when they find out that not only do they need to learn Bitcoin, but they also need to learn how to fund another system (Liberty Reserve, Pecunix, Alertpay, etc) then they start giving up on the proposal.

The private conscientious and Bitcoin enthusiasts will be more than happy to find a new payment method, but the next time Bitcoin is featured in an article and the readers realize the loops they have to jump through, it will turn off the majority.

Something needs to be done, that is obvious. But I don't blame Mt. Gox or others that tried to use CC or Paypal payments. If it wasn't for these funding methods, I don't think we'd see nearly the price escalation that we've seen.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: S3052 on October 12, 2010, 08:23:56 PM
done!

Good for you!

What was it you did again?

I added a ticket requesting to add bitcoin as described above.

hope you're doing it as well


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: ribuck on October 12, 2010, 08:49:23 PM
... the next time Bitcoin is featured in an article and the readers realize the loops they have to jump through, it will turn off the majority.
Maybe we should shift the emphasis away from buying the bitcoins.

Here are two ways of getting BTC that don't involve the use of an exchange, and are fairly intuitive for the newcomer:

1. The deal offered by bitcointo.com (http://www.bitcointo.com/). Shop at amazon.com through their affiliate link, and claim back 1% of your purchase as bitcoins.

2. Sell something for BTC at biddingpond.com (http://www.biddingpond.com/). The website needs some improvement (e.g. the help pages are useless) but the concept is clear enough.

There is also the BTC 0.05 that newcomers can get for free from the bitcoin faucet (http://freebitcoins.appspot.com/), and of course you can generate if you don't mind waiting a month or two for some coins (using the stock client on an "ordinary" home PC).


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Babylon on October 12, 2010, 08:52:01 PM
... the next time Bitcoin is featured in an article and the readers realize the loops they have to jump through, it will turn off the majority.
Maybe we should shift the emphasis away from buying the bitcoins.

Here are two ways of getting BTC that don't involve the use of an exchange, and are fairly intuitive for the newcomer:

1. The deal offered by bitcointo.com (http://www.bitcointo.com/). Shop at amazon.com through their affiliate link, and claim back 1% of your purchase as bitcoins.

2. Sell something for BTC at biddingpond.com (http://www.biddingpond.com/). The website needs some improvement (e.g. the help pages are useless) but the concept is clear enough.

There is also the BTC 0.05 that newcomers can get for free from the bitcoin faucet (http://freebitcoins.appspot.com/), and of course you can generate if you don't mind waiting a month or two for some coins (using the stock client on an "ordinary" home PC).

Until the bitcoin economy expands dramatically being able to convert bitcoins to and from fiat currencies is kind of vital.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on October 12, 2010, 10:14:38 PM
mcjohn: Like I said in the original post, I'm getting another payment processor. That doesn't happen instantly. I do this in my spare time for free so don't get all uppity.
If you have BTC in there that you bought with paypal this paypal issue doesn't even effect you. You have the same 30 day waiting period you had before paypal froze my account.
If you have USD in there you will be able to withdraw it once either paypal unfreezes my account or I get a new payment processor. Or if you are in a super big hurry just buy BTC on there and withdraw it.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Anonymous on October 12, 2010, 10:56:30 PM
MtGox is doing the best he can. Its not his fault scammers are doing chargebacks. Maybe something needs to be done about them instead. Make an example of one of them ie a bounty on finding their dox. Surely there must be a hacker who could do this on here.

If someone thinks they will get away scott free for ripping off bitcoin users they will do it. If there are consequences for doing so they might think twice. I am not against self defence and a deterrent should be in place that stops peoples property and reputation being stolen.





Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: FreeMoney on October 12, 2010, 11:55:02 PM
MtGox is doing the best he can. Its not his fault scammers are doing chargebacks. Maybe something needs to be done about them instead. Make an example of one of them ie a bounty on finding their dox. Surely there must be a hacker who could do this on here.

If someone thinks they will get away scott free for ripping off bitcoin users they will do it. If there are consequences for doing so they might think twice. I am not against self defence and a deterrent should be in place that stops peoples property and reputation being stolen.


Better design >>>>>> showing mutilated bodies on the homepage


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: nelisky on October 13, 2010, 12:17:18 AM
I don't usually step into these discussions where I don't have anything of value to add, except to make smart ass remarks and take a shot at sarcasm, but c'mon guys, what's with this call to violence? You begin to sound just like the government: we can't outsmart them or we simply don't bother to try at all, so what else can we do? Oh, right, BOMB THEM.

I'm not here to judge, nor do I have the moral to do it, but just my 2 bitcents here, can we not create a honeypot scenario and scam the scammers? I know there's a test network :) So here's what I propose:
- Lets come up with a legit looking exchange
- Get some bogus volume going
- Get the money stolen by the scammers on our pockets, along with the credit card details so we can give it back
- Log ips, try to get into their machines, etc

I can code something up, if there's people up for the design part. Also, we need to find a way to keep legit users at bay. Ah, yes, and there's no telling if mtgox and johnyrich didn't do that already... hehe


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: kiba on October 13, 2010, 12:22:03 AM
I don't usually step into these discussions where I don't have anything of value to add, except to make smart ass remarks and take a shot at sarcasm, but c'mon guys, what's with this call to violence? You begin to sound just like the government: we can't outsmart them or we simply don't bother to try at all, so what else can we do? Oh, right, BOMB THEM.

I'm not here to judge, nor do I have the moral to do it, but just my 2 bitcents here, can we not create a honeypot scenario and scam the scammers? I know there's a test network :) So here's what I propose:
- Lets come up with a legit looking exchange
- Get some bogus volume going
- Get the money stolen by the scammers on our pockets, along with the credit card details so we can give it back
- Log ips, try to get into their machines, etc

I can code something up, if there's people up for the design part. Also, we need to find a way to keep legit users at bay. Ah, yes, and there's no telling if mtgox and johnyrich didn't do that already... hehe

Waste of time and money. We need a reputation system of some kind to keep the scammers at bay.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Anonymous on October 13, 2010, 01:15:55 AM
MtGox is doing the best he can. Its not his fault scammers are doing chargebacks. Maybe something needs to be done about them instead. Make an example of one of them ie a bounty on finding their dox. Surely there must be a hacker who could do this on here.

If someone thinks they will get away scott free for ripping off bitcoin users they will do it. If there are consequences for doing so they might think twice. I am not against self defence and a deterrent should be in place that stops peoples property and reputation being stolen.


Better design >>>>>> showing mutilated bodies on the homepage

I dont think that would do anything  :)

In a free market system these issues need to be dealt with. In no way is that a call for violence.



Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Anonymous on October 13, 2010, 01:24:37 AM
I don't usually step into these discussions where I don't have anything of value to add, except to make smart ass remarks and take a shot at sarcasm, but c'mon guys, what's with this call to violence? You begin to sound just like the government: we can't outsmart them or we simply don't bother to try at all, so what else can we do? Oh, right, BOMB THEM.

I'm not here to judge, nor do I have the moral to do it, but just my 2 bitcents here, can we not create a honeypot scenario and scam the scammers? I know there's a test network :) So here's what I propose:
- Lets come up with a legit looking exchange
- Get some bogus volume going
- Get the money stolen by the scammers on our pockets, along with the credit card details so we can give it back
- Log ips, try to get into their machines, etc

I can code something up, if there's people up for the design part. Also, we need to find a way to keep legit users at bay. Ah, yes, and there's no telling if mtgox and johnyrich didn't do that already... hehe

Its not about violence its about people gaming the system when they see a weakness. Lets not forget they started this by taking property that isnt theirs. We just have to come up with a way to make it harder to do so.



Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: FreeMoney on October 13, 2010, 04:20:48 AM
MtGox is doing the best he can. Its not his fault scammers are doing chargebacks. Maybe something needs to be done about them instead. Make an example of one of them ie a bounty on finding their dox. Surely there must be a hacker who could do this on here.

If someone thinks they will get away scott free for ripping off bitcoin users they will do it. If there are consequences for doing so they might think twice. I am not against self defence and a deterrent should be in place that stops peoples property and reputation being stolen.


Better design >>>>>> showing mutilated bodies on the homepage

I dont think that would do anything  :)

In a free market system these issues need to be dealt with. In no way is that a call for violence.



To be clear. I'm saying to design exchanges in some better way that I haven't thought of instead of violence.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Timo Y on October 13, 2010, 09:32:13 AM
Quote
Its not about violence its about people gaming the system when they see a weakness. Lets not forget they started this by taking property that isnt theirs. We just have to come up with a way to make it harder to do so.

In a way it's a good thing that scammers are attacking this early because it's weeding out the weaknesses in the system.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Anonymous on October 13, 2010, 10:29:35 AM
Quote
Its not about violence its about people gaming the system when they see a weakness. Lets not forget they started this by taking property that isnt theirs. We just have to come up with a way to make it harder to do so.

In a way it's a good thing that scammers are attacking this early because it's weeding out the weaknesses in the system.

Yes that's a good point.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: MoonShadow on October 13, 2010, 06:17:36 PM
Quote
Its not about violence its about people gaming the system when they see a weakness. Lets not forget they started this by taking property that isnt theirs. We just have to come up with a way to make it harder to do so.

In a way it's a good thing that scammers are attacking this early because it's weeding out the weaknesses in the system.

Yes, but this attack didn't highlight a weakness in Bitcoin, it highlights a weakness in the many credit/identity based systems that the markets must trade into.  This is exactly the kind of issues that Bitcoin attempts to solve, and does so quite well within itself.  What we need is local markets, actual people within our own cities that we can go to and trade fiat cash for Bitcoin in person.  When that day comes, then the system is mature.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Babylon on October 13, 2010, 06:40:30 PM
Quote
Its not about violence its about people gaming the system when they see a weakness. Lets not forget they started this by taking property that isnt theirs. We just have to come up with a way to make it harder to do so.

In a way it's a good thing that scammers are attacking this early because it's weeding out the weaknesses in the system.

Yes, but this attack didn't highlight a weakness in Bitcoin, it highlights a weakness in the many credit/identity based systems that the markets must trade into.  This is exactly the kind of issues that Bitcoin attempts to solve, and does so quite well within itself.  What we need is local markets, actual people within our own cities that we can go to and trade fiat cash for Bitcoin in person.  When that day comes, then the system is mature.

Difficulty in converting to/from fiat is a weakness. 

Also, people manage to use paypal quite successfully for a wide variety of business uses, including virtual services like subscription payments to World of Warcraft. Yes, paypal is a flawed system that is too easy to chargeback, there's nothing else that is as widespread and although interfacing between bitcoin and paypal is not required, it is extremely helpful.

Better ways to prevent scamming really would make a difference.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: S3052 on October 13, 2010, 07:00:21 PM
Every day of not being able to use MtGox to buy new bitcoins is having negative effects

* not being able to grow the BITCOIN economy
* not being able to recruit new BITCOIN USERS
* not being able to buy more BITCOINS (as the price is further rising. Last price is above 10 cents again)



Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: jgarzik on October 13, 2010, 07:12:59 PM
Paypal works just fine for normal businesses with on-going customer-business relationships.  An established business does deal with the occasional chargeback, but that's just part of the system.  The law (here in the US) strongly incentivizes sellers to work hard to please the buyer, because chargeback capability is required by law to protect the consumer.  For the most part, the system works as expected.

When it comes to cash, however, the system clearly breaks down.  Presumably that's why ATM withdrawals from credit cards carry a higher interest rate, and often, more security protections (PIN requirement, etc.).

We need to figure out how to access the "ATM withdrawal" portion of a credit card, at the exchanges.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on October 14, 2010, 11:22:58 AM
Sorry this is taking longer than I thought. All these payment processors have issues. It is actually very hard to find a good one. (All the more reason bitcoin needs to get widely adopted).
There are still a few more to investigate...


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: S3052 on October 14, 2010, 11:41:23 AM
Sorry this is taking longer than I thought. All these payment processors have issues. It is actually very hard to find a good one. (All the more reason bitcoin needs to get widely adopted).
There are still a few more to investigate...

Is it an option to regain paypal? did you talk to them what would be required (only certified users, etc.) from their side to work with MtGox again?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Drifter on October 14, 2010, 11:53:46 AM
If anything, I feel like Liberty Reserve should strongly be considered, even as a second option.
You can get Liberty Reserve pretty easily right now, and it's not that expensive. Places like goldexpay.com only charge $5 for any amount, or 3% + $6 if you're funding with Western Union. To cash out into your bank account or western union is only 4-5%. Not peanuts, obviously, but for those who keep a chunk of their money online, the fees are miniscule. What is it, 1% to exchange between liberty reserve members? That's even savings compared to Paypal, and no risk of chargeback.
Now for the person who has never funded any e-currency before, it might be a tad confusing on how to initially get started, but it's a system that should work without many hiccups.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mcjohn on October 14, 2010, 04:00:15 PM
It seems like good damage control (in order to avoid damage to the Bitcoin and MtGox public image) in present circumstances, might be to reverse all transactions (at original exchange rates, check MtGox low for today? - refund members funded Bitcoins and allow Paypal funders to reverse funding to MtGox - and then start afresh (with a reliable payment processing procedure allowing instant transactions, maybe 3 work days at worst, and not 30 days, for example Western Union, Moneygram, or Liberty Reserve,


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: S3052 on October 14, 2010, 04:30:00 PM
Why should any legitimate transaction be reversed. I would strongly object to that as it is totally unfair and even illegal.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mcjohn on October 14, 2010, 04:49:36 PM
Why should any legitimate transaction be reversed. I would strongly object to that as it is totally unfair and even illegal.

With funds otherwise frozen for 180 days (six months!), it might be the only way for everybody to recover legitimately what they contributed legitimately.

Original Bitcoin funders could get all their Bitcoins back,

and

original Paypal funders could get all their USD back almost immediately - not maybe in 180 days (six months!).


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: ribuck on October 14, 2010, 05:11:28 PM
original Paypal funders could get all their USD back almost immediately
People didn't send USD to MtGox so that they could get it back. They sent it so that they could trade. Therefore, no legitimate trade should be reversed.

Everyone knew that MtGox's USD conduit was PayPal, therefore anyone who feels aggreived because of PayPal's actions should seek recourse from PayPal.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mcjohn on October 14, 2010, 06:33:01 PM
original Paypal funders could get all their USD back almost immediately
Everyone knew that MtGox's USD conduit was PayPal, therefore anyone who feels aggreived because of PayPal's actions should seek recourse from PayPal.

Would that be through the Resolution Centre - suppose for non-delivery of product?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: ribuck on October 14, 2010, 07:15:04 PM
Would that be through the Resolution Centre - suppose for non-delivery of product?
What's your non-delivered product? I think Bitcoins are being delivered as usual.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mcjohn on October 14, 2010, 07:37:06 PM
Would that be through the Resolution Centre - suppose for non-delivery of product?
What's your non-delivered product? I think Bitcoins are being delivered as usual.

I tried to withdraw the paid for Bitcoins - but MtGox (suspecting this to be a fraudulent transaction), put a 30-day waiting period on my purchased Bitcoin - before withdrawal can be effected. 

Are my paid-for purchased items considered delivered, if I cannot withdraw them immediately, and they are not in my full control?  Is it some 30-day fixed deposit without interest?

Before the MtGox Paypal account freeze (due to chargebacks of fraudulent stolen credit card transactions on the MtGox Paypal account), I had a positive outlook of MtGox's future, and 30 days would be ok to wait. Currently however, I am hesitant and do not know what will happen with MtGox in the next few weeks?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mpkomara on October 14, 2010, 07:40:38 PM
What you agreed to with Paypal is to deposit your money into your account at mtgox.  if i'm not mistaken, mtgox has the right to do whatever he wants with your dollars.  caveat emptor, no?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: FreeMoney on October 14, 2010, 07:43:16 PM
Would that be through the Resolution Centre - suppose for non-delivery of product?
What's your non-delivered product? I think Bitcoins are being delivered as usual.

I tried to withdraw the paid for Bitcoins - but MtGox (suspecting this to be a fraudulent transaction), put a 30-day waiting period on my purchased Bitcoin - before withdrawal can be effected. 

Are my paid-for purchased items considered delivered, if I cannot withdraw them immediately, and they are not in my full control?  Is it some 30-day fixed deposit without interest?

Before the MtGox Paypal account freeze (due to chargebacks of fraudulent stolen credit card transactions on the MtGox Paypal account), I had a positive outlook of MtGox's future, and 30 days would be ok to wait. Currently however, I am hesitant and do not know what will happen with MtGox in the next few weeks?

Are you saying you deposited and bought bitcoins before he instated that rule and he retroactively applied it to you?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: ribuck on October 14, 2010, 07:59:05 PM
I tried to withdraw the paid for Bitcoins - but MtGox (suspecting this to be a fraudulent transaction), put a 30-day waiting period on my purchased Bitcoin - before withdrawal can be effected.
PayPal does actually have a policy on this somewhere, which I have seen recently but can't remember where. There is some specific number of days between payment and delivery that is acceptable to PayPal, but I think it's quite a lot. Also, PayPal themselves sometimes hold a payment for 21 days (http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?s=4a38a8762b343983e0b833eb3cd014b3&p=1258139&postcount=3).

And by the way, MtGox imposed the 30-day waiting period for everyone, not just on transactions that it suspects may be fraudulent.

I'm leaving this thread now, because I don't speak for PayPal or for MtGox, but I hope you won't try to pressure MtGox into reversing trades that other people carried out with you in good faith. That would be tres uncool.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on October 14, 2010, 10:58:20 PM
I'm definitely not reversing any trades.

mcjohn why don't you email me your username and I'll see what I can do for you.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: kiba on October 15, 2010, 03:48:52 AM
Though we know that you are working in your spare time to add payment processors, the patience of traders are, nonetheless, wearing thin.






Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: jorgen on October 15, 2010, 07:22:44 AM
What do you think about https://ikobo.com/ service?
I have used it for one year to send money to my girlfriend and I find it quite reliable.
Now they allows you to send up to 1000$ for 8$ fee using your wire transfer to upload
funds to prepayed  visa CC which they send to any address.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on October 15, 2010, 11:26:34 AM
Kiba: It isn't an issue of time. It is that I haven't found a good alternative. Here are the only choices I have so far:
ACH (only works in the US)
LibertyReserve: (ok except expensive to transfer in and out)
Okpay: (Even more expensive than LR but possibly more funding and withdrawing options)

Ones that wont work:
AlertPay, Amazon: (still has chargebacks and mtgox isn't in their Acceptable Use Policy AUP)
liqpay: (I can't get the SMS from the 4 phones I tried)
Moneybookers: (violates their AUP)
click2pay: (No US sign-ups)
ikobo: No API
and more ...




Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: nelisky on October 15, 2010, 11:52:40 AM
Kiba: It isn't an issue of time. It is that I haven't found a good alternative. Here are the only choices I have so far:
ACH (only works in the US)
LibertyReserve: (ok except expensive to transfer in and out)
Okpay: (Even more expensive than LR but possibly more funding and withdrawing options)

Ones that wont work:
AlertPay, Amazon: (still has chargebacks and mtgox isn't in their Acceptable Use Policy AUP)
liqpay: (I can't get the SMS from the 4 phones I tried)
Moneybookers: (violates their AUP)
click2pay: (No US sign-ups)
ikobo: No API
and more ...

How about you open a side PP account to allow withdrawal, but not funding? I mean, I'm not going to be buying any bitcoins anytime soon on mtgox, as obviously the no withdrawal situation is getting the price sky high, and I have a couple dollars there I could use somewhere else. So you don't get the money locked out you could accept PMs from people wanting to withdraw and you'd fund the account just enough for that?

I mean, not having a way to move US$ in and out of mtgox is a pain, but having the $ help hostage is, well, a bigger pain (I'm not in the mood for cursing right now :) ). And if people want to trade in mtgox while you search hi and lo for the ultimate payment processor (tm) they can buy a few coins personally on the forum or on biddingpond (funny how noone did that yet, "I have $100 to sell, bidding starts and 500 BTC" sorta thing), move that to mtgox and trade away.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Drifter on October 15, 2010, 11:55:49 AM
No luck with liqpay SMS? Strange. Be sure to use your country code and area code when punching in your number. You might need to attempt the SMS twice, as for some reason, it doesn't always work the first time.

I once had problems signing in, and contacted their chat support, in which they were able to guide me through the problem. Maybe you should try out their support. Their native language is Russian but support speaks English as well.

I feel that IF you somehow get liqpay to work, it is a pretty good solution. Liqpay can also be easily traded for Liberty Reserve on some exchange sites for 4-5%. Perhaps allowing both Liberty Reserve and Liqpay is a good choice, for one offers credit card payment, and the other is much safer. In fact when you consider the idea of funding Liberty Reserve with liqpay for small amounts, the fees don't really seem that high for Liberty Reserve.



I also agree with the post above. Having a paypal withdrawal account should be a good option to consider as well.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: S3052 on October 15, 2010, 11:56:16 AM
I think we should not allow withrawal of $ at MtGox until after Adding Funds is also possible again. Only one-sided allowance will bring this small and still vulnerable system out of balance.

We should allow withdrawal and adding of funds in parallel.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: FreeMoney on October 15, 2010, 12:02:55 PM
I think we should not allow withrawal of $ at MtGox until after Adding Funds is also possible again. Only one-sided allowance will bring this small and still vulnerable system out of balance.

We should allow withdrawal and adding of funds in parallel.

So if he doesn't find an acceptable (to him) way to take money he shouldn't give people their cash back? Letting people get their money is surely his primary concern.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: The Madhatter on October 15, 2010, 12:08:10 PM
ACH (only works in the US)

That's not entirely true. ACH works in Canada/US and some (very few) countries in South America.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: nelisky on October 15, 2010, 12:09:40 PM
I think we should not allow withrawal of $ at MtGox until after Adding Funds is also possible again. Only one-sided allowance will bring this small and still vulnerable system out of balance.

We should allow withdrawal and adding of funds in parallel.

You mean unbalanced like it is now? Or was it a coincidence that the price increase of BTC on mtgox neatly matched the moment withdrawal became impossible in any other way except for bitcoins? How's that for an unbalanced system, pretty young and so vulnerable?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: jorgen on October 15, 2010, 12:26:04 PM
No luck with liqpay SMS? Strange. Be sure to use your country code and area code when punching in your number. You might need to attempt the SMS twice, as for some reason, it doesn't always work the first time.

I once had problems signing in, and contacted their chat support, in which they were able to guide me through the problem. Maybe you should try out their support. Their native language is Russian but support speaks English as well.

I feel that IF you somehow get liqpay to work, it is a pretty good solution. Liqpay can also be easily traded for Liberty Reserve on some exchange sites for 4-5%. Perhaps allowing both Liberty Reserve and Liqpay is a good choice, for one offers credit card payment, and the other is much safer. In fact when you consider the idea of funding Liberty Reserve with liqpay for small amounts, the fees don't really seem that high for Liberty Reserve.



I also agree with the post above. Having a paypal withdrawal account should be a good option to consider as well.

Liqpay SMS system was working perfectly for me for long time until recently. But yesterday I also had some delay with SMS delivery. So I go to chat with online support and they asked me to fill out the form with the name of my cell provider. For me this did helped. I hope it was temporary technical problem and they can solve it for you in the future. And BTW you can exchange Liqpay to LR manually dealing with trusted private exchangers for only 1-2%.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: ribuck on October 15, 2010, 12:34:42 PM
I think we should not allow withrawal of $ at MtGox until after Adding Funds is also possible again. Only one-sided allowance will bring this small and still vulnerable system out of balance.
No-one forces you to trade while the system is "out of balance", so I don't see why you want to stop people from withdrawing their $ from MtGox.

If you're not going to trade, it doesn't make any difference to you whether or not other people have their $ in MtGox.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: nelisky on October 15, 2010, 12:36:45 PM
I think we should not allow withrawal of $ at MtGox until after Adding Funds is also possible again. Only one-sided allowance will bring this small and still vulnerable system out of balance.
No-one forces you to trade while the system is "out of balance", so I don't see why you want to stop people from withdrawing their $ from MtGox.

If you're not going to trade, it doesn't make any difference to you whether or not other people have their $ in MtGox.

That's true, but also true is the fact that if I needed to get my cash out, quickly, my only option right now was to buy overinflated coins and sell them elsewhere... I'm guessing S3052 has some of those coins to sell ;)


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: caveden on October 15, 2010, 01:19:08 PM
Mr Gox, isn't there any sort of insurance you could hire - and indirectly charge on users, of course - to cover for the chargebacks?

I suppose that if there is such a thing, they would even help you to increase the security of your site against scams....


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: S3052 on October 15, 2010, 04:38:36 PM
I think we should not allow withrawal of $ at MtGox until after Adding Funds is also possible again. Only one-sided allowance will bring this small and still vulnerable system out of balance.
No-one forces you to trade while the system is "out of balance", so I don't see why you want to stop people from withdrawing their $ from MtGox.

If you're not going to trade, it doesn't make any difference to you whether or not other people have their $ in MtGox.

That's true, but also true is the fact that if I needed to get my cash out, quickly, my only option right now was to buy overinflated coins and sell them elsewhere... I'm guessing S3052 has some of those coins to sell ;)


Just to clarify. I am not talking about my personal situation. Actually I have no intent to sell.
I want to make sure that one-sided action will not create a turbulence in the market (either crash or monstrous inflation of BTC) which could then shy away the few who are left.

Never underestimate the psychology caused by small events - they can have big consequences.

And I think you all agree with me that we want to see BTC alive in 10y to come and not destroyed and forgotten because of a short sighted decision.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: jgarzik on October 15, 2010, 05:06:17 PM
How about you open a side PP account to allow withdrawal, but not funding?

This seems like a valid and convenient use of Paypal.

ACH would be a highly useful method of deposit, but that's only in the US, as mtgox noted.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: FreeMoney on October 15, 2010, 08:19:19 PM
He could even match people up who want to get money off with people who want to get it on. Or let us do it here and then facilitate the transfer so we only do it with people we trust.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Anonymous on October 16, 2010, 12:49:49 AM
It seems that this forum has become the way peoples reputation is judged. SMF supports open id so if this was used on the forum and the bitcoin community also used open id your forum profile would then be the same across different bitcoin sites all with one login.




Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Dark Shikari on October 16, 2010, 02:53:05 AM
How about you open a side PP account to allow withdrawal, but not funding?

This seems like a valid and convenient use of Paypal.

ACH would be a highly useful method of deposit, but that's only in the US, as mtgox noted.
An interesting note about this is that it satisfies people who want an easy way out of BTCs, making it more likely for merchants to be willing to accept BTCs.  What really matters for BTC adoption is the ability to easily convert back to dollars.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: gumtree on October 16, 2010, 08:25:06 AM
LOW COST INTERNATIONAL FUNDING SOLUTION:  Add MtGox's banking details as beneficiary in your http://www.CurrencyFair.com account.  CurrencyFair is a Peer-to-Peer international currency trading market, where exchange rates even lower than interbank rates are possible, your rate will depend on how much of a hurry you are in, as there is also bid-and-offer queuing possibility.  Only legal digital electronic cryptographic certificated Bitcoin commodity purchase payments will be allowed in accordance with Terms of Service.

At current volumes (and the odd 5% saving on Paypal commissions), MtGox might charge 2.5% in, and 2.5% out fees for monetary currency USD, EUR, AUD, SGD, CAD, CHF, NZD, HKD, UAE & ZAR transfers, with which electronic cryptographic certificated Bitcoin commodity were bought or sold.  Transfer Payments to and from MtGox will be manually however (don't know if it can be automated).

CurrencyFair however is closed for trading over weekends like all major currency markets - transfers however is effected within 2 business days, depending on individual bank clearing times.  No transaction reversals at CurrencyFair.  Funding in USD, EUR, AUD, SGD, CAD, CHF, NZD, HKD, UAE & ZAR.  Conversion between all (USD, EUR, AUD, SGD, CAD, CHF, NZD, HKD, UAE & ZAR) and transfer out in all (USD, EUR, AUD, SGD, CAD, CHF, NZD, HKD, UAE & ZAR).


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: ribuck on October 16, 2010, 09:54:31 AM
...Only legal digital electronic cryptographic certificated Bitcoin commodity purchase payments will be allowed in accordance with Terms of Service
Wow, a 9-word string of buzzwords. Is that a record?

Bitcoin transactions are of course self-certifying. If CurrencyFair is serious about Bitcoin, they would need to adapt some of their ways of working to support it.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: gumtree on October 16, 2010, 10:40:20 AM
That's the good news, Bitcoin as a product IS supported for payment through CurrencyFair, in any of the mentioned currencies!  If you do not want to buy them through MtGox, then you could add the Bitcoin seller's local banking details to your beneficiaries directly - if he wants to give you his local banking details.  If security is a concern - individuals can always set up a receive-only local banking account that is always kept at zero balance by transferring your received funds to a different account as they are received, in order to avoid fraudulent withdrawal.

As an internet commodity, like those Bitcoins being exchanged (bought/sold) on MtGox for USD fiat currency, Bitcoin is a product.

Unfortunately/fortunately, Bitcoins might not be considered, by any legal entity, as a currency as it is not backed up by a promise to deliver anything by any authority/jurisdiction/issuing body - but only has electronic cryptographic certificated intrinsic value.  

Maybe Wirtland could issue OpenTransaction blinded tokens (token = promise to deliver x) as a currency, and promise to deliver Bitcoin cryptographic certificates in exchange.  Unfortunately this will not be a national currency, as Wirtland as a micronation has no physical location/jurisdiction/sovereignty recognized by any other nations yet, and is thus not yet recognized as a sovereign nation?!?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on October 16, 2010, 03:20:45 PM
I got liqpay to work finally so we will be using that. I should have it hooked up tuesday.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Bimmerhead on October 16, 2010, 04:00:47 PM
I got liqpay to work finally so we will be using that. I should have it hooked up tuesday.

Hummm, interesting posts in the liqpay forum.

Also, their tagline is quite curious: "The most simple payments".  Is that intentional?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: SmokeTooMuch on October 16, 2010, 04:37:39 PM
Hummm, interesting posts in the liqpay forum.
Quote
it's a big scam
awful chat operator
account blocked
account still blocked
liqpay is a fraud
accounts are still blocked more than 30 days
liqpay is big scam
account blocked
hmm, doesnt seem like a good option to use.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: gumtree on October 16, 2010, 04:46:47 PM
I got liqpay to work finally so we will be using that. I should have it hooked up tuesday.

It seems like they only support fund withdrawal to Visa cards (not Master/Diners/AMEX) if you are non-Russian/non-Ukranian, and only effected in 3 to 6 days.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mcjohn on October 16, 2010, 05:06:24 PM
I got liqpay to work finally so we will be using that. I should have it hooked up tuesday.

It seems like we will be going from bad to worse.  LiqPay's forum went off - but when it was on, it also showed the recurring theme of people's funds being stucked for 180 days, people only being able to withdraw to Visa, support not being helpful, etc. etc.  Do you want to send your money to Russia/Ukraine?

CurrencyFair based in Ireland, http://www.currencyfair.com/ , seems legit enough to trust your funds with.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: kiba on October 16, 2010, 05:22:33 PM
I got liqpay to work finally so we will be using that. I should have it hooked up tuesday.

It seems like we will be going from bad to worse.  LiqPay's forum went off - but when it was on, it also showed the recurring theme of people's funds being stucked for 180 days, people only being able to withdraw to Visa, support not being helpful, etc. etc.  Do you want to send your money to Russia/Ukraine?

CurrencyFair based in Ireland, http://www.currencyfair.com/ , seems legit enough to trust your funds with.

Oh dear, on top of a paypal-like behaviors, we're going to wait until Tuesday?

When Mt. Gox will recover its full glory?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mcjohn on October 16, 2010, 05:48:09 PM
Here's what  I could grab from the liqpay forum screen before a screen cover wanting me to log in cover it:


Subscribe for new messages
Message was sticked
It's a Big scam!!!!

Last message:
from Guest at 16.10.2010 09:51

hi, now chat is off...
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Awful chat operator

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Account blocked - LiqPay trying to steal my money ?

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I can supply you wi...
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Account still blocked - Wait 180 Days,WTF ?!

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Payment Limits

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цитaтa oт yes i ...
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Payments to a VISA card

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Withdrawal to a VISA...
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Top-up the LiqPAY Account

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Zablokirovali AKAYNT...
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On CHECK status

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Accounts are Still blocked more than 30 days

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Lipay is Big Scam!!

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Liqpay Great Customer Service !!!

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Liqpay Great Profit Earning Plan!!!!!!!

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A мoжнo дoбaвить бeлopyccкиe pyбли для oплaты?

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1.registering to user was very easy and sms code is great idea. 2.website desaign +chat+forum very safisticat and nice 3.purchasing a UKASH cards online is great idea. 4.chat represent dimitry was very nice and helpful. 5.furtanatly when purches Ukash u mast pay in Ukrain moany but i geas its becose operator locat in eist europ 6.general score is good for this site (i still not understand all its feture but i buy few Ukash from it and only place on web i finde sell it)

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CAN PLEASE LIQPAY MANAGER CONTACT ME AS PROMISED WHEN PROBLEMS WITH VERIFICATION ARISE - Problems with account- since my account is in GBP - it's hard to confirm the blocked amount in USD, as it's not debited it can only be confirmed in GBP, thank you,i

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Зaблoкиpoвaны нeмeцкиe MasterCard?

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цитaтa oт I did ...
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Snova zablokirovan akaynt!!!

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LeWeb 2009 "Real-Time Web".

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Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: nanotube on October 17, 2010, 01:36:09 AM
my 0.5 btc :):

ACH (only works in the US)
still not a bad start (can you guess i'm in the US? :) )

Quote
LibertyReserve: (ok except expensive to transfer in and out)
1% is quite reasonable, as far as transfer fees go.



Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: kiba on October 17, 2010, 01:46:40 AM
Perhaps, Mt. Gox. could add many options for deposit and withdrawal?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: bitcoinex on October 17, 2010, 07:17:11 AM
I got liqpay to work finally so we will be using that. I should have it hooked up tuesday.

You're crazy?! With liqpay you don't solve the problem and will aggravate it! You get the same thing as with Paypal but given the fact that any disputes should be solved in the Ukraine.
(Note: Ukraine is the place where live carders who robbed BTC exchanges.)

Why do not you want to use a simple bank transfer? This is the only thing that can guarantee the reliability of delivery and a small percentage of fees. So do all payment systems except those that has the ability to chargeback. Waiting only about 3 days until the transfer goes. (In Russia, at least)


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: dabbad on October 17, 2010, 09:11:05 AM
Bitcoin is system irrevocably paying, hence optimum to use similar systems for decrease in risks of a stock exchange. These are systems Libertyreserve and Perfectmoney.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: caveden on October 17, 2010, 10:53:46 AM
Quote
LibertyReserve: (ok except expensive to transfer in and out)
1% is quite reasonable, as far as transfer fees go.

That would be much cheaper than paypal by the way....


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on October 17, 2010, 12:25:59 PM
nanotube & cavden: LR is 1% to transfer between accounts. To convert cash to LR is 5% or more and to convert it back to cash is 5% or more. So it becomes quite expensive.

nanotube: I probably will still set up ACH. It takes more time though.

bitcoinex: I don't have a bank account in Europe so I can only do bank transfers in the US. I could wore to europe but this is expensive and I haven't found an automated way to do that.

I'm not saying liqpay is perfect. I haven't used them enough to know how shady they are. But there doesn't seem to be a good alternative at this point.



 


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Anonymous on October 17, 2010, 12:34:38 PM
nanotube & cavden: LR is 1% to transfer between accounts. To convert cash to LR is 5% or more and to convert it back to cash is 5% or more. So it becomes quite expensive.

nanotube: I probably will still set up ACH. It takes more time though.

bitcoinex: I don't have a bank account in Europe so I can only do bank transfers in the US. I could wore to europe but this is expensive and I haven't found an automated way to do that.

I'm not saying liqpay is perfect. I haven't used them enough to know how shady they are. But there doesn't seem to be a good alternative at this point.



 

You are right about LR being expensive. Especially when you also have to convert the US dollars to other currencies.

Would you consider getting a consortium of interested parties together to fund a merchant account so that you could accept direct bank transfers?

This really would be the best solution!

If you had an account at currency fair you could buy and sell currency for bitcoin users without them having to get an account there (for a  fee of course).



Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: S3052 on October 17, 2010, 01:06:56 PM
This is the best idea I heard for a while. I support it 100%.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on October 17, 2010, 01:35:08 PM
I don't see how currency fair helps? They don't let you transfer to particular people.

> Would you consider getting a consortium of interested parties together to fund a merchant account so that you could accept direct bank transfers?
I don't think US banks do this. They have either wire transfers or ACH.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on October 17, 2010, 01:58:09 PM
davidonpda: ACH is fine for the US. But I think less than half of the gox users are from the US. So I want to get a global solution up first.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: bitcoinex on October 17, 2010, 04:51:51 PM
bitcoinex: I don't have a bank account in Europe so I can only do bank transfers in the US. I could wore to europe but this is expensive and I haven't found an automated way to do that.

I have no accounts anywhere except Russia. This is normal.

Europeans will have to make their exchange, or at least, would make an Euro account in bank and use the engine of our exchange sites. And residents of other regions too.

This is reliable independent distributed system of exchange. So usually work currency exchange.

Only unlike the goverment we do not need to monitor the trade balance. Customers who privately will be able to occasionally spend the conversion of other currencies in the other automatically will track behind it.

Quote from: mtgox
davidonpda: ACH is fine for the US. But I think less than half of the gox users are from the US. So I want to get a global solution up first.

I think such a global non-repayable payments can not be. Because nobody is interested in this, except users of bitcoin. Neither the state, nor the banks and nor the global payment systems.

In fact, bitcoin themselves should be the first such system


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: bitcoinex on October 17, 2010, 05:17:49 PM
Bitcoin is system irrevocably paying, hence optimum to use similar systems for decrease in risks of a stock exchange. These are systems Libertyreserve and Perfectmoney.

It's the same system as bitcoin.
How to sell their currencies these systems? All the same, by bank transfer payment?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: dabbad on October 17, 2010, 06:40:34 PM
Bitcoin is system irrevocably paying, hence optimum to use similar systems for decrease in risks of a stock exchange. These are systems Libertyreserve and Perfectmoney.

It's the same system as bitcoin.
How to sell their currencies these systems? All the same, by bank transfer payment?

It is a lot of variants of replenishment of the account!
For Libertyreserve: http://www.bsrates.com/
For Perfectmoney: bank wire https://perfectmoney.com/easy_way_deposit.html
or exchanges https://www.perfectmoney.com/business-partners.html


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: bitcoinex on October 17, 2010, 07:41:29 PM
Bitcoin is system irrevocably paying, hence optimum to use similar systems for decrease in risks of a stock exchange. These are systems Libertyreserve and Perfectmoney.

It's the same system as bitcoin.
How to sell their currencies these systems? All the same, by bank transfer payment?

It is a lot of variants of replenishment of the account!
For Libertyreserve: http://www.bsrates.com/
For Perfectmoney: bank wire https://perfectmoney.com/easy_way_deposit.html
or exchanges https://www.perfectmoney.com/business-partners.html

A lot of variants? By links I see only "wire transfer" and "exchanges to others currencies".

Ok, wire transfer is about something that I suggest (bank transfer)

"Exchangers" exchange from others currencies, but theese others currencies also need to be buyed for USD. None of these currencies does not have a full cycle (I do not know exactly how it's called), that is, you can not get these currencies salary and spend it in the offline store (of course, if you not carder, pirate pornosite owner, or contributor to network financial pyramid)

And these currencies are facing the same refunds challenges of exchanging that bitcoin now or using bank transfers?

Wanga said: The fate of bitcoin - transformation into a digital hawala :)


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: gumtree on October 17, 2010, 10:03:38 PM
I don't see how currency fair helps? They don't let you transfer to particular people.
You can add a third party beneficiary bank account, see http://www.currencyfair.com/help.jsp?id=4

Even if yours is a USD bank account, the transfer out, to the third party beneficiary may be in any of the available currencies (and an order should be able to be filled at best available offers - if your funds are still in USD and they need to be sent to a EUR bank account for example).


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: gumtree on October 17, 2010, 10:06:36 PM
When you sign up with currency fair, your account's first funding (local transfer in USD, EUR, AUD, NZD, etc., etc. - usually free) has to come from one of your own bank accounts (via local transfer at 0.00 cost).

After that funding, or transfers in (or paying customers) may be from third parties by doing local transfers to the different Currency Fair accounts in there local jurisdictions (USD, EUR, AUD, NZD, etc., etc.).  The destination Currency Fair account is used as a reference to allocate these incoming funds to the correct Currency Fair user account.  MtGox might implement a unique random amount of cents to be added to the transferred amounts to allocate third party transfers to his Currency Fair account to his different user base:  Say at any specific day User A and User B wants to transfer USD100 to MtGox at the same time:  MtGox would request User A to transfer USD100.17 and User B to transfer USD100.73.  The amount showing up into MtGox's Currency Fair account as USD100.73 would indicate that User B has done a successful third party transfer at that time to the MtGox's Currency Fair account.

For transfers out:  Members send their LOCAL (USD, EUR, AUD, NZD, etc., etc.) banking details to MtGox, and gets added as beneficiaries into MtGox's Currency Fair account.  When a user wants to withdraw from MtGox, MtGox sends money to the user's bank account via local transfer in the correct currency, all with the help of Currency Fair's built-in functionality.  There is a cost related to transfers out, this is within reason, in order for Currency Fair to run a profitable business.

Here are some current conversion rates, what you would get when selling your 1 USD =, 1 AUD =, or 1 EUR = (compare to current effective credit card conversion rates?):

1 USD = 3.6520 AED1 AUD = 3.6175 AED1 EUR = 5.1030 AED
1 USD = 1.0040 AUD1 AUD = 0.9979 CAD1 EUR = 1.4029 AUD
1 USD = 1.0068 CAD1 AUD = 0.9440 CHF1 EUR = 1.4082 CAD
1 USD = 0.9531 CHF1 AUD = 0.7056 EUR1 EUR = 1.3312 CHF
1 USD = 0.7118 EUR1 AUD = 0.6166 GBP1 EUR = 0.8697 GBP
1 USD = 0.6222 GBP1 AUD = 7.642 HKD1 EUR = 10.780 HKD
1 USD = 7.714 HKD1 AUD = 1.3051 NZD1 EUR = 1.8412 NZD
1 USD = 1.3171 NZD1 AUD = 2.7502 PLN1 EUR = 3.8785 PLN
1 USD = 2.7754 PLN1 AUD = 1.2776 SGD1 EUR = 1.8027 SGD
1 USD = 1.2896 SGD1 AUD = 0.9849 USD1 EUR = 1.3898 USD
1 USD = 6.774 ZAR1 AUD = 6.708 ZAR1 EUR = 9.466 ZAR

See live bids/offers now at:  
http://www.currencyfair.com/view-live-forex-market


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on October 17, 2010, 10:39:40 PM
gumtree: Is there a way to automate this?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: gumtree on October 17, 2010, 11:00:57 PM
gumtree: Is there a way to automate this?

If they do not have an api, my programming abilities are limited and I would not in the position to comment.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on October 18, 2010, 12:00:39 PM
If anyone is willing to help me test liqpay can you please email me. info @ mtgox


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: SmokeTooMuch on October 18, 2010, 05:36:40 PM
just don't use it. almost every post that I could find via google told me liqpay is scam.

there has to be a well-known "second best" besides PayPal, does anybody know such a service ?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: S3052 on October 18, 2010, 05:42:19 PM
I had a very good experience with liqpay yesterday.

I probed a lot in the chat and I am reassured. That's all I can say for myself.

Great to have a way to add funds to MtGox now again.

At the same time, I believe that CurrencyFair is also an option to pursue.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: SmokeTooMuch on October 18, 2010, 06:15:55 PM
I guess best would be Liberty Reserve + exchangezone.com

btw: withdrawing is still not possible


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on October 19, 2010, 01:11:48 PM
Ok liqpay should be working now. Please let me know if you have issues.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: SmokeTooMuch on October 19, 2010, 04:03:01 PM
still can't withdraw to liqpay ;-(

and even if I was able to, without a credit card I'm not even able to cash out the liqpay balance T.T


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: 8bit on October 19, 2010, 05:00:01 PM
still can't withdraw to liqpay ;-(

and even if I was able to, without a credit card I'm not even able to cash out the liqpay balance T.T

You can change liqpay to PP or other ecurrency.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: sturle on October 19, 2010, 05:02:36 PM
Ok liqpay should be working now. Please let me know if you have issues.
First of all, it can't be used to withdraw.  I'd like my cash now, please.  And it looks like liqpay demands a cell phone?  I don't have one.  Don't want one.  Wouldn't trust SMS over GSM for anything important.  Shouldn't need a phone to get money from Mt. Gox.  What is wrong with a normal european bank account?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: kiba on October 19, 2010, 05:20:18 PM
Will MtGox be adding other sources of funding methods?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: jgarzik on October 19, 2010, 06:39:14 PM
I have a normal, non-pre-paid subscription from Sprint, for mobile service.

Was unable to receive liqpay SMS's after multiple tries.

Maybe it works better for European phones?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: S3052 on October 19, 2010, 06:44:41 PM
I was successful with my European phone.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: gumtree on October 19, 2010, 09:17:12 PM
MtGox: 100% Chargeback protection from moneybookers.com for webstore merchant accounts can be arranged, see http://www.moneybookers.com/app/help.pl?s=m_fraudcontrol .  

Cash Payment Systems eliminating charge backs:  In US is paynearme.com  (pay near me) and Internationally ukash.com



Would Bitcoin be a unique/licensed download product?  Each key is definitely unique, and the key is uniquely assigned as property owned by the key holder.  Moneybookers.com do not accept merchants from unlicensed download industry, see http://www.moneybookers.com/app/help.pl?s=merchant ,  as unlicensed product download is just a bunch of non-unique identical digital copies of a certain kind, which is not the case with Bitcoins.  Bitcoin keys being unique, would provide prove in the block chain database whether the unique numbered product was delivered or not.

Another elimination of risk of charge backs is a cash system called Paynearme.com http://www.paynearme.com/merchants/faqs but is only available to US customers.  Another cash system which should eliminate charge backs and where merchants may sign up, is called Ukash and is available internationally.  http://www.ukash.com .


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on October 19, 2010, 09:45:18 PM
moneybookers said mtgox.com violates their acceptable use policy.

I'm talking to paynearme.com

strule: I'm not european so I can't open a european bank account.



Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: SmokeTooMuch on October 19, 2010, 09:58:45 PM
Bitcoin is international, please don't focus on the US citizens too much.
I (as an European) also want to trade on your platform.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: kiba on October 20, 2010, 12:33:41 AM
I sold 40 bitcoin at the loss of .097 each when I was selling something much higher than .01, which was at the price at which I purchased bitcoins. I don't know why this is happening.

Gah.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Anonymous on October 20, 2010, 01:04:44 AM
A similar service in europe uses paysafecards.

http://www.paysafecard.com/uk/ (http://www.paysafecard.com/uk/)


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Abb้Beno๎t on October 20, 2010, 01:11:06 AM
I sold 40 bitcoin at the loss of .097 each when I was selling something much higher than .01, which was at the price at which I purchased bitcoins. I don't know why this is happening.

Gah.

Kiba, is it that you've accidentally put an extra leading zero in your ask price? What I mean is, did you buy at .1 and then ask .01x, thus selling out to the highest bidder at .097?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on October 20, 2010, 04:50:58 PM
If anyone wants to withdraw USD but can't use liqpay and doesn't have a US bank account send me an email and we'll figure out how to get you your funds.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: twobitcoins on October 20, 2010, 05:54:56 PM
If anyone wants to withdraw USD but can't use liqpay and doesn't have a US bank account send me an email and we'll figure out how to get you your funds.

Can you clarify?  Withdrawals by LiqPAY still don't seem to be enabled on the site, and I'm not aware of a US bank account withdrawal option either.  Are you saying that LiqPAY and ACH withdrawals will be available in the near future, so people who can use those methods should be patient, and people who can't should make other arrangements?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Keefe on October 20, 2010, 09:24:49 PM
I second twobit's question. I would definitely prefer to withdraw my USD to my US bank account, preferably by ACH, or as a second-best option, by mailed check. I'm confused by mtgox's last post.

The reason I do not like LiqPay is it appears that every login and many activities require me to receive a one-time password by SMS. My only cell phone charges me $0.20 for each SMS received, and Google Voice won't accept SMS from outside the US. Paying $0.20 multiple times every time I want to use LiqPay (even if just checking account balance) seems ridiculous. Is SMS really more secure than email (free)?

And I do realize that many people have free SMS service, but I'm sure there are also many like myself who don't. Also, many don't have a cell phone. Unless there's a way to get around LiqPay's SMS requirement, there really needs to be another method of depositing and withdrawing from Mt Gox.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: S3052 on October 20, 2010, 09:32:23 PM
I also echo the request to enable a universal and globally acceptable withdrawal. As there is also a high percentage of people outside the US, we should have an easy and reliable withdrawal option for all regions (Europe, Asia, Africa, etc.)


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: bitcoinex on October 20, 2010, 09:35:07 PM
I second twobit's question. I would definitely prefer to withdraw my USD to my US bank account, preferably by ACH, or as a second-best option, by mailed check. I'm confused by mtgox's last post.

The reason I do not like LiqPay is it appears that every login and many activities require me to receive a one-time password by SMS. My only cell phone charges me $0.20 for each SMS received, and Google Voice won't accept SMS from outside the US. Paying $0.20 multiple times every time I want to use LiqPay (even if just checking account balance) seems ridiculous. Is SMS really more secure than email (free)?

It is such a feature in the former Soviet Union.

They think that SMS are safer. But in fact, anyone can use fake documents to get a new SIM card with your phone number and gain control over all your money - in the mobile operator offices  documents do not adequately checked.

http://bankir.ru/news/article/1890545
google translator:
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http://bankir.ru/news/article/1890545


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on October 21, 2010, 01:20:57 AM
Keefe: Yes I'm adding ACH


S3052:
> I also echo the request to enable a universal and globally acceptable withdrawal.

I want the same thing you do. Please let me know if you find a good one.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Anonymous on October 21, 2010, 02:28:49 AM
Keefe: Yes I'm adding ACH


S3052:
> I also echo the request to enable a universal and globally acceptable withdrawal.

I want the same thing you do. Please let me know if you find a good one.


Is there an issue with adding paypal to allow withdraw only?

This would be great for those who only want to sell their coins not buy any. :)

Some more options for you
http://www.1stcontactforex.com/ (http://www.1stcontactforex.com/)
http://www.tranzfers.com/ (http://www.tranzfers.com/) This one is easy to setup.Just add our bank account as a beneficiary and you can send it there.
http://www.fttcurrency.co.uk/index.jsp (http://www.fttcurrency.co.uk/index.jsp)

http://www.travelexbusiness.com/ (http://www.travelexbusiness.com/) - Travelex is excellent for this type of thing.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: jgarzik on October 21, 2010, 02:48:52 AM
Is there an issue with adding paypal to allow withdraw only?

I agree, this would be nice.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: sturle on October 21, 2010, 08:44:35 AM
They think that SMS are safer. But in fact, anyone can use fake documents to get a new SIM card with your phone number and gain control over all your money - in the mobile operator offices  documents do not adequately checked.
No need to hassle with SIM cards.  There are lot's of ways to intercept GSM traffic.  You can even decrypt GSM traffic received over the air.  It's simple and the required equipment is cheap.  If you want more control, you can set up a fake base station.  It's even simpler than decrypting.  CCC had a good session and workshop on practical GSM hacking last year: http://events.ccc.de/congress/2009/Fahrplan/track/Hacking/3654.en.html (http://events.ccc.de/congress/2009/Fahrplan/track/Hacking/3654.en.html)


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: matador on October 23, 2010, 04:29:20 PM
Another bank account based payment processor that I found is Alert Pay.

It is Canadian Based.  It requires a business like MtGox to be verified, which will instill confidence with customers.

It comes complete with API integration for the MtGox website.

Credit Card based transactions is also possible for the brave - but those preferring more secure, non-chargeback transactions - bank transfers are offered.

To get your FREE account with AlertPay, click on this link:  https://www.alertpay.com/?hr8ZCMa6QOBJpH0tRiiz3w%3d%3d

If you do not mind, I will get referral fees if you click on the link, as I have also gone through a lot of trouble of searching for a true, fully international, western based, stable payment processor alternative to paypal.

Hope this might assist you all in your international bank account transfer transaction dealings in Bitcoin.



Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Drifter on October 23, 2010, 04:52:09 PM
Another bank account based payment processor that I found is Alert Pay.

It is Canadian Based.  It requires a business like MtGox to be verified, which will instill confidence with customers.

It comes complete with API integration for the MtGox website.

Credit Card based transactions is also possible for the brave - but those preferring more secure, non-chargeback transactions - bank transfers are offered.

To get your FREE account with AlertPay, click on this link:  https://www.alertpay.com/?hr8ZCMa6QOBJpH0tRiiz3w%3d%3d

If you do not mind, I will get referral fees if you click on the link, as I have also gone through a lot of trouble of searching for a true, fully international, western based, stable payment processor alternative to paypal.

Hope this might assist you all in your international bank account transfer transaction dealings in Bitcoin.





http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1484.msg18222#msg18222


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: matador on October 23, 2010, 06:00:45 PM
http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1484.msg18222#msg18222

Is Bitcoin a promise to pay (token, webmoney, e-currency, currency, voucher, etc., etc.,), or is it a unique license of ownership of a solution to a cryptographic problem?  If anybody would be stealing a Bitcoin (the solution to a cryptographic problem), they would be:

* Infringing on any third party's copyright, patent, trademark, trade secret or other property rights or rights of publicity or privacy.

and this also comes from the following acceptable use policy of AlertPay:

https://www.alertpay.com/en/agreements.aspx#6.0%20Acceptable%20Use%20and%20Activities%20Not%20Allowed

Is trading in an internet commodity called Bitcoin, (with its cryptographic key certificate intrinsic value) equivalent to issuing a promise to pay (token, webmoney, currency, etc., etc.) - or does it only represent its own intrinsic value (like licensed computer software)/salt/silver with its own specific unique properties?

See http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=815.msg12299#msg12299


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: FreeMoney on October 23, 2010, 08:32:44 PM
A promise to pay what? By whom? Obviously it is not a promise by anyone to pay anything.

Someone might promise to give you something for a bitcoin, but that isn't what a bitcoin is.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Anonymous on October 24, 2010, 02:23:23 AM
To get your FREE account with AlertPay, click on this link:  https://www.alertpay.com/?hr8ZCMa6QOBJpH0tRiiz3w%3d%3d

/End referral link

LOL.

You are now aware you were clicking on a link that wasnt a hyperlink.... :D


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: MoonShadow on October 24, 2010, 04:11:50 AM
http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1484.msg18222#msg18222

Is Bitcoin a promise to pay (token, webmoney, e-currency, currency, voucher, etc., etc.,), or is it a unique license of ownership of a solution to a cryptographic problem?  If anybody would be stealing a Bitcoin (the solution to a cryptographic problem), they would be:

* Infringing on any third party's copyright, patent, trademark, trade secret or other property rights or rights of publicity or privacy.

and this also comes from the following acceptable use policy of AlertPay:

https://www.alertpay.com/en/agreements.aspx#6.0%20Acceptable%20Use%20and%20Activities%20Not%20Allowed

Is trading in an internet commodity called Bitcoin, (with its cryptographic key certificate intrinsic value) equivalent to issuing a promise to pay (token, webmoney, currency, etc., etc.) - or does it only represent its own intrinsic value (like licensed computer software)/salt/silver with its own specific unique properties?

See http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=815.msg12299#msg12299

None of the above.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: kiba on October 24, 2010, 05:06:21 AM
MtGox: Will you give us an official reason as to why people can't withdraw via liqpay?

Also, can you check your email? I had an accounting issue with your service. Thanks.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: esop on October 24, 2010, 08:16:42 AM
Registrant:
 Code Collective
 286 Union #1A
 brooklyn, NY 11211
 US
 212-989-3555
 
*Domain Name: MTGOX.COM  /*our thing*/
*Domain Name: THEFARWILDS.COM  /*it is still up*/
Domain Name: OVERNET.COM  /*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overnet*/
Domain Name: EDONKEY.COM  /*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDonkey_network*/

Administrative Contact:
 McCaleb, Jed
 swamp12@yahoo.com
 286 Union #1A
 brooklyn, NY 11211
 US
 212-989-3555

Technical Contact:
 McCaleb, Jed
 swamp12@yahoo.com
 286 Union #1A
 brooklyn, NY 11211
 US
 212-989-3555
 
Record last updated 01-04-2010 10:33:00 PM
Record expires on 01-02-2011
Record created on 01-02-2007

Domain servers in listed order:
        NS1.THEPLANET.COM        207.218.247.135
        NS2.THEPLANET.COM        207.218.223.162

 212-217-9368. Technical Contact: McCaleb, Jed   swamp12@yahoo.com. PO Box 110-881
 212-217-9368  401 E 60th St, New York, NY


JED MCCALEB
503 FOREST AVE   Neighborhood & Property Report  Record Created: 03/2002       
FAYETTEVILLE, AR  72701   (501) 571-1887

JED MCCALEB
248 MCKIBBEN ST   Neighborhood & Property Report  Record Created: 12/2004       
BROOKLYN, NY  11206   (718) 386-7181
    /*Angela Lopez     (718) 386-7181     1536 Dekalb Ave,  Brooklyn, NY 11237-3614*/


04:00 and mt.gox was cleaned out.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: S3052 on October 24, 2010, 08:22:19 AM
I can't complain about MtGox.

I was in touch with him last week and he responded to my questions quickly and to my full satisfaction.

Maybe he is out over the weekend.

Still, I think we need to ensure that any BTC exchange is run professionally and with the proper risk management.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: esop on October 24, 2010, 08:34:59 AM
No he is reading as we talk look at his profile!

Name:   mtgox
Posts:   89 (0.899 per day)
Respect:   0
Position:   Jr. Member
Date Registered:   July 17, 2010, 01:00 am
*Last Active:   Today at 03:08 am
ICQ:   
AIM:   
MSN:   
YIM:   
Email:   hidden
Website:   Mt. Gox --- 24/7 Bitcoin Exchange
Current Status:    Offline
Gender:   
Age:   N/A
Location:   
Local Time:   October 24, 2010, 08:23 am
Language:   


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Drifter on October 24, 2010, 11:19:02 AM
What's going on? No bids and the price was driven extremely high. This doesn't look good.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: S3052 on October 24, 2010, 11:24:20 AM
No need to worry.
There are a lot of bids on MtGox.

They are just not visible because of the "poor" design of the website.

Bid is 0.11
Ask 0.119

see http://bitcoinwatch.com/ (http://bitcoinwatch.com/)


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Drifter on October 24, 2010, 11:31:33 AM
Hm I saw that too. Strange. Why would the design show the lowest ask price at .19 if that's the case? Definitely a flaw that needs to be fixed.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on October 24, 2010, 01:07:02 PM
esop: What is your point? I'm not hiding. I'm still here.

kiba: I haven't implemented it. There doesn't seem to be much interest.

AlertPay: We violate their acceptable use policy.

I'm still waiting for our registration to be approved by our ACH provider. Hopefully that will happen begining of this week.

Monday you should be able to send BTC or USD to other mtgox users. This will allow 3rd parties to buy and sell mtgox usd for paypal or whatever other method they want.  (You can actually do this now with the mtgox merchant api)




Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: SmokeTooMuch on October 24, 2010, 05:28:22 PM
There is a HELL OF AN INTEREST to withdraw the USD funds, but liqpay doesn't seem to be the right way..


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on October 25, 2010, 02:37:53 AM
Ok you can send your mtgox BTC or USD to anyone else now. So people who want to withdraw funds just need to find someone that wants to add funds. This isn't the final solution of course but it should help people that need their money ASAP.



Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: TTBit on October 25, 2010, 12:43:21 PM
Ok you can send your mtgox BTC or USD to anyone else now. So people who want to withdraw funds just need to find someone that wants to add funds. This isn't the final solution of course but it should help people that need their money ASAP.


Suggestion: This could be your new business model. MtGox only clears trades, funding is done by other companies.

MtGox charges a flat .001 btc fee per trade. For every 10,000 coins cleared on the exchange, MtGox gets 10 coins. Not getting super rich with that.

Now, someone could start a business called 'BitcoinFunding.com' send you a check/wire for $10,000 and then sell off that interest using paypal, pokerstars money, whatever they like. Any clients they bring in are BitcoinFunding clients, and any funding issues/chargebacks are BitcoinFundings problem, not MtGox. Then let BitcoinFunding charge their own commission table, say it is 0.009 per coin. Total coin cost is 0.010 per coin to customer.

BitcoinFunding would have their own website, own graphs, own quote service, come up with an iPhone app, etc.



Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: bitcoinex on October 25, 2010, 02:20:32 PM
Ok you can send your mtgox BTC or USD to anyone else now. So people who want to withdraw funds just need to find someone that wants to add funds. This isn't the final solution of course but it should help people that need their money ASAP.


Suggestion: This could be your new business model. MtGox only clears trades, funding is done by other companies.


We prepare this feature on exchange btcex.com:
http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1485.0

Identification of payments of depositories is planned with PGP.

Please participate in the survey:
http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1562.0


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Anonymous on October 25, 2010, 10:23:02 PM
Ok you can send your mtgox BTC or USD to anyone else now. So people who want to withdraw funds just need to find someone that wants to add funds. This isn't the final solution of course but it should help people that need their money ASAP.


Suggestion: This could be your new business model. MtGox only clears trades, funding is done by other companies.

MtGox charges a flat .001 btc fee per trade. For every 10,000 coins cleared on the exchange, MtGox gets 10 coins. Not getting super rich with that.

Now, someone could start a business called 'BitcoinFunding.com' send you a check/wire for $10,000 and then sell off that interest using paypal, pokerstars money, whatever they like. Any clients they bring in are BitcoinFunding clients, and any funding issues/chargebacks are BitcoinFundings problem, not MtGox. Then let BitcoinFunding charge their own commission table, say it is 0.009 per coin. Total coin cost is 0.010 per coin to customer.

BitcoinFunding would have their own website, own graphs, own quote service, come up with an iPhone app, etc.




That is the same model Liberty Reserve uses. The way to get other currencies in and out is through exchangers not LR itself.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: bitcoinex on October 26, 2010, 12:37:46 AM
Ok you can send your mtgox BTC or USD to anyone else now. So people who want to withdraw funds just need to find someone that wants to add funds. This isn't the final solution of course but it should help people that need their money ASAP.


Suggestion: This could be your new business model. MtGox only clears trades, funding is done by other companies.

MtGox charges a flat .001 btc fee per trade. For every 10,000 coins cleared on the exchange, MtGox gets 10 coins. Not getting super rich with that.

Now, someone could start a business called 'BitcoinFunding.com' send you a check/wire for $10,000 and then sell off that interest using paypal, pokerstars money, whatever they like. Any clients they bring in are BitcoinFunding clients, and any funding issues/chargebacks are BitcoinFundings problem, not MtGox. Then let BitcoinFunding charge their own commission table, say it is 0.009 per coin. Total coin cost is 0.010 per coin to customer.

BitcoinFunding would have their own website, own graphs, own quote service, come up with an iPhone app, etc.




That is the same model Liberty Reserve uses. The way to get other currencies in and out is through exchangers not LR itself.

how they make sure the seller is not a crook?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Anonymous on October 26, 2010, 02:04:32 AM
Ok you can send your mtgox BTC or USD to anyone else now. So people who want to withdraw funds just need to find someone that wants to add funds. This isn't the final solution of course but it should help people that need their money ASAP.


Suggestion: This could be your new business model. MtGox only clears trades, funding is done by other companies.

MtGox charges a flat .001 btc fee per trade. For every 10,000 coins cleared on the exchange, MtGox gets 10 coins. Not getting super rich with that.

Now, someone could start a business called 'BitcoinFunding.com' send you a check/wire for $10,000 and then sell off that interest using paypal, pokerstars money, whatever they like. Any clients they bring in are BitcoinFunding clients, and any funding issues/chargebacks are BitcoinFundings problem, not MtGox. Then let BitcoinFunding charge their own commission table, say it is 0.009 per coin. Total coin cost is 0.010 per coin to customer.

BitcoinFunding would have their own website, own graphs, own quote service, come up with an iPhone app, etc.




That is the same model Liberty Reserve uses. The way to get other currencies in and out is through exchangers not LR itself.

how they make sure the seller is not a crook?


They can use any number of things. A utility bill with your name and address on it,a passport,a drivers license,a phone call.

There are no bitcoin exchangers that go that far yet. I think cash in the mail is the only real solution if you dont have stringent customer verification enabled.
 
http://www.greenid.com.au/ (http://www.greenid.com.au/)  is one used down here by some sites.

I guess it depends if you want to follow the lessons of sites who got ripped off or not.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: esop on October 26, 2010, 02:58:32 AM
So did mt.gox have all cash seized for money laundering or just card fraud?
Is trading mt.gox money rely just passing off bad debt?
And why is mt.gox putting up fake low quotes?

The way I see it if you buy bitcoins at $0.20 you'll at least get half of your money.
If you wait too long the feds mite find his box then you get nothing.
It was a good try, and I thank mt.gox for the try.

If mt.gox was the edonky.com of bitcoin who is the pirate bay?
Perhaps we could take from the "hawala" system.
If you sell on ebay the old e-con-o-my will con you just like mt.gox.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: nanaimogold on October 26, 2010, 10:01:06 AM
Hawala used to be set up entirely on trust, usually through families.

Today settlement can be immediate through bullion banks like GoldMoney or Anglo Far East.

The idea that the collective US tyrant can outlaw hawala shows what they don't know.



Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on October 26, 2010, 10:39:33 AM
esop: please read the original post if you want to know what happened. I'm not sure what you are rambling about after that but you seem like a troll. Do you even have a money in mtgox?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: bitcoinex on October 26, 2010, 11:51:46 AM
Ok you can send your mtgox BTC or USD to anyone else now. So people who want to withdraw funds just need to find someone that wants to add funds. This isn't the final solution of course but it should help people that need their money ASAP.


Suggestion: This could be your new business model. MtGox only clears trades, funding is done by other companies.

MtGox charges a flat .001 btc fee per trade. For every 10,000 coins cleared on the exchange, MtGox gets 10 coins. Not getting super rich with that.

Now, someone could start a business called 'BitcoinFunding.com' send you a check/wire for $10,000 and then sell off that interest using paypal, pokerstars money, whatever they like. Any clients they bring in are BitcoinFunding clients, and any funding issues/chargebacks are BitcoinFundings problem, not MtGox. Then let BitcoinFunding charge their own commission table, say it is 0.009 per coin. Total coin cost is 0.010 per coin to customer.

BitcoinFunding would have their own website, own graphs, own quote service, come up with an iPhone app, etc.




That is the same model Liberty Reserve uses. The way to get other currencies in and out is through exchangers not LR itself.

how they make sure the seller is not a crook?


They can use any number of things. A utility bill with your name and address on it,a passport,a drivers license,a phone call.


What happens if someone turns out to be a crook which is authenticated?

Begin prosecution? On what grounds? And if the scammer from another country?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: kiba on October 26, 2010, 02:30:15 PM

What happens if someone turns out to be a crook which is authenticated?

Begin prosecution? On what grounds? And if the scammer from another country?

Nothing is foolproof?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on October 26, 2010, 10:41:44 PM
Ok I've given up the search and started integrating Liberty Reserve.
You can now add payments with LR.
I'm doing withdrawals manually for now.
ExchangeZone.com seems the best place to buy and sell LR since you can do it with out the crazy commission the other exchangers charge.
Please email me if you have issues.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Anonymous on October 26, 2010, 10:57:14 PM
Ok I've given up the search and started integrating Liberty Reserve.
You can now add payments with LR.
I'm doing withdrawals manually for now.
ExchangeZone.com seems the best place to buy and sell LR since you can do it with out the crazy commission the other exchangers charge.
Please email me if you have issues.

Thats probably the best option.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: kiba on October 26, 2010, 11:44:20 PM
So MtGox, now that you given up on finding a suitable withdrawal method....


What do you have planned for MtGox in the future?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on October 26, 2010, 11:58:46 PM
kiba: you misunderstood me. You can withdraw with Liberty Reserve.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: twobitcoins on October 27, 2010, 12:47:17 AM
mtgox: So what have you given up on?  Are you still trying to support ACH?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Anonymous on October 27, 2010, 02:27:44 AM
mtgox: So what have you given up on?  Are you still trying to support ACH?



He cant get an ach account meaning LR is one of the only remaining possibilities.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Keefe on October 27, 2010, 04:38:54 AM
So now the big question is: Will mtgox back MTGUSD with LRUSD 1:1 less fees? In other words, will I be able to withdraw the "USD" from my Mt Gox account into my LR account at a fixed 1:1 rate? Or will the rate be market-determined (i.e. a third tradeable currency at Mt Gox)? If the latter, and if there will never be a way to directly withdraw our existing MTGUSD except by trading to LRUSD first within Mt Gox with another Mt Gox user, then MTGUSD will become worthless. If mtgox is offering direct withdrawal of MTGUSD as LRUSD without trading first, then MTGUSD will be fine.

But I am still concerned about PayPal possibly never giving back the stolen (ok, "frozen") funds. If therefore there is not enough liquid funds backing up all MTGUSD, without mtgox dipping into personal funds, there's a possibility of a "bank run" on MTGUSD.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: nanaimogold on October 27, 2010, 05:55:21 AM
Ok I've given up the search and started integrating Liberty Reserve.
You can now add payments with LR.
I'm doing withdrawals manually for now.
ExchangeZone.com seems the best place to buy and sell LR since you can do it with out the crazy commission the other exchangers charge.
Please email me if you have issues.

Be careful. ExchangeZone is rife with scammers.

That's what years of experience can teach.

That and what it costs to maintain inventories and mitigate fraud.

You see, for you guys, bitcoin is a nerdish hobby. People serious about digital currency pay exchange commissions because it's worth it.

Both you and BCM were warned long ago about the risks you were taking. I even warned you both last year that your market data would become skewed from the fraud.

I can't even use Mt Gox data because it's so far out to lunch.

Now look at these numbers. Do you still think it's too expensive to deal with a real exchange company?

Code:
BitcoinMarket
  Pecunix           :      0.0901
  PayPal            :      0.1500
  Liberty Reserve   :      0.1000

Mt Gox
  PayPal            :      0.16

Link2Voip
  Phone credit      :      0.15015

Nanaimo Gold buys   :      0.0901
Nanaimo Gold sells  :      0.1037


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on October 27, 2010, 10:44:45 AM
Keefe: paypal will give it back. Even if they don't things will be fine.
I'm treating LR USD just like USD. I didn't make it a 3rd currency.

twobitcoins: I'm still trying to get ACH but it doesn't look good.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: caveden on October 27, 2010, 11:17:32 AM
Now look at these numbers. Do you still think it's too expensive to deal with a real exchange company?

Code:
BitcoinMarket
  Pecunix           :      0.0901
  PayPal            :      0.1500
  Liberty Reserve   :      0.1000

Mt Gox
  PayPal            :      0.16

Link2Voip
  Phone credit      :      0.15015

Nanaimo Gold buys   :      0.0901
Nanaimo Gold sells  :      0.1037

You've raised an interesting point here. It's as if paypal insecurity was dropping its value. In the end, using a secure system (or an insurance) might cost the same.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: FreeMoney on October 27, 2010, 11:29:18 AM
Ok I've given up the search and started integrating Liberty Reserve.
You can now add payments with LR.
I'm doing withdrawals manually for now.
ExchangeZone.com seems the best place to buy and sell LR since you can do it with out the crazy commission the other exchangers charge.
Please email me if you have issues.

Be careful. ExchangeZone is rife with scammers.

That's what years of experience can teach.

That and what it costs to maintain inventories and mitigate fraud.

You see, for you guys, bitcoin is a nerdish hobby. People serious about digital currency pay exchange commissions because it's worth it.

Both you and BCM were warned long ago about the risks you were taking. I even warned you both last year that your market data would become skewed from the fraud.

I can't even use Mt Gox data because it's so far out to lunch.

Now look at these numbers. Do you still think it's too expensive to deal with a real exchange company?

Code:
BitcoinMarket
  Pecunix           :      0.0901
  PayPal            :      0.1500
  Liberty Reserve   :      0.1000

Mt Gox
  PayPal            :      0.16

Link2Voip
  Phone credit      :      0.15015

Nanaimo Gold buys   :      0.0901
Nanaimo Gold sells  :      0.1037


That's a great rate.

It seems to me that when I put in the amount of LR I want to trade it should calculate the number of bitcoins I will receive and not a number of dollars. Even on the preview page it has dollars and not the number of bitcoins. 


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: bitcoinex on October 27, 2010, 12:04:36 PM

What happens if someone turns out to be a crook which is authenticated?

Begin prosecution? On what grounds? And if the scammer from another country?

Nothing is foolproof?

I just interesting how a system like bitcoin successfully solved this problem.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: nanaimogold on October 27, 2010, 12:39:21 PM

That's a great rate.

It seems to me that when I put in the amount of LR I want to trade it should calculate the number of bitcoins I will receive and not a number of dollars. Even on the preview page it has dollars and not the number of bitcoins. 


Noted. I'll change the presentation. Bitcoin is different from the other digital currencies.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Anonymous on October 27, 2010, 12:46:59 PM

What happens if someone turns out to be a crook which is authenticated?

Begin prosecution? On what grounds? And if the scammer from another country?

Nothing is foolproof?

I just interesting how a system like bitcoin successfully solved this problem.


I think we need to follow what is the strength of bitcoin and that is its distributed nature. It follows that distributed reputation and exchange markets is the way to go. That means the damage from any one bad thing does not effect the whole.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: bitcoinex on October 27, 2010, 04:15:33 PM

What happens if someone turns out to be a crook which is authenticated?

Begin prosecution? On what grounds? And if the scammer from another country?

Nothing is foolproof?

I just interesting how a system like bitcoin successfully solved this problem.


I think we need to follow what is the strength of bitcoin and that is its distributed nature. It follows that distributed reputation and exchange markets is the way to go. That means the damage from any one bad thing does not effect the whole.

But the exchanges contrary tend to consolidation and centralization.
Unfortunately,exchanges play an important role.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: sturle on October 27, 2010, 07:45:12 PM
I just created a LR account.  After withdrawing USD 75, which went very quickly, I got 73.51 on my LR account.  Shouldn't it be 74.25?  Looks like the fee of 1% has been deducted twice?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: FreeMoney on October 27, 2010, 08:24:03 PM
I just created a LR account.  After withdrawing USD 75, which went very quickly, I got 73.51 on my LR account.  Shouldn't it be 74.25?  Looks like the fee of 1% has been deducted twice?

Apparently mtgox takes 1% and LR takes another 1%? If so, better to have fees on withdraws than on every trade. That way market makers can still keep very tight spreads.

I wonder what the deal is with deposits. Just one 1% from LR?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: sturle on October 27, 2010, 08:30:40 PM
I just created a LR account.  After withdrawing USD 75, which went very quickly, I got 73.51 on my LR account.  Shouldn't it be 74.25?  Looks like the fee of 1% has been deducted twice?
Apparently mtgox takes 1% and LR takes another 1%?
Can't be.  Mt. Gox says on every page: Mt. Gox charges no fee and is free to use.
The withdrawal page only mentions the 1% charged by Liberty Reserve.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: FreeMoney on October 27, 2010, 08:38:06 PM
I just created a LR account.  After withdrawing USD 75, which went very quickly, I got 73.51 on my LR account.  Shouldn't it be 74.25?  Looks like the fee of 1% has been deducted twice?
Apparently mtgox takes 1% and LR takes another 1%?
Can't be.  Mt. Gox says on every page: Mt. Gox charges no fee and is free to use.
The withdrawal page only mentions the 1% charged by Liberty Reserve.

Yeah, I remember it does say that, but he did charge $1 before for PP withdraws and for checks, so I think the best guess is that he took 1%.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: jimbobway on October 28, 2010, 03:23:29 AM
mtgox, can u offer withdraws via paypal?  withdraws won't have chargebacks.  if no, then why not?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: jgarzik on October 28, 2010, 04:28:08 AM
mtgox, can u offer withdraws via paypal?  withdraws won't have chargebacks.  if no, then why not?

Withdrawal... from what account?

mtgox noted at the beginning of this thread that PayPal froze his account, possibly up to 180 days.  After reviewing mtgox's posts, I don't see anything that has changed that fundamental situation.

And creating a second PP account, just for withdrawals, would not only endanger the first (frozen) PP account, but would inflict additional LR->PP transfer fees on the withdrawer.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: jimbobway on October 28, 2010, 06:20:56 AM
mtgox, can u offer withdraws via paypal?  withdraws won't have chargebacks.  if no, then why not?

Withdrawal... from what account?

mtgox noted at the beginning of this thread that PayPal froze his account, possibly up to 180 days.  After reviewing mtgox's posts, I don't see anything that has changed that fundamental situation.

And creating a second PP account, just for withdrawals, would not only endanger the first (frozen) PP account, but would inflict additional LR->PP transfer fees on the withdrawer.


I deposited usd into mt gox with paypal.  So if Mt Gox's PayPal was not frozen I should be able to withdraw my money back directly into my PayPal account.

r u hoping that mt gox not get a second paypal account just so the first paypal acct has a likely chance to bcome unfrozen? I'm ok with that too. but once unfrozen I should b able 2 make usd withdraws into my pp acct.  I do not want 2 go through liberty reserve.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on October 28, 2010, 12:46:27 PM
jimbobway: yes once paypal unfreezes my account I'm pretty sure I will be able to send you your money from it. If I can't then I'll open a 2nd account to do this.



Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: kiba on October 29, 2010, 04:06:03 PM
jimbobway: yes once paypal unfreezes my account I'm pretty sure I will be able to send you your money from it. If I can't then I'll open a 2nd account to do this.



But it's only 18 days! 162 days before you can send money via paypal again.(From the start of this thread) That's a long time.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: S3052 on November 03, 2010, 08:43:37 AM
Volume is dropping on the exchanges (MtGox, etc.).

What is the reason for it?
* is it that people hold on to their coins?
* is it that people spend their coins in games, other services, etc.?
* is it because MtGox does not accept new users? WHAT IS THE STATUS ???
* is it because MtGox only offers Liberty Reserve to add funds which itself takes ages to buy and is complicated?

I know it is tough and not easy and MtGox is doing a great job trying to work this out, but it would be good to see what the timeline is to re-establish a proper exchange (incl. make it open to new users and easy to add / withdraw funds).
maybe some other experts here can help.

thanks for perspective


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: Anonymous on November 03, 2010, 11:17:33 AM
Volume is dropping on the exchanges (MtGox, etc.).

What is the reason for it?
* is it that people hold on to their coins?
* is it that people spend their coins in games, other services, etc.?
* is it because MtGox does not accept new users? WHAT IS THE STATUS ???
* is it because MtGox only offers Liberty Reserve to add funds which itself takes ages to buy and is complicated?

I know it is tough and not easy and MtGox is doing a great job trying to work this out, but it would be good to see what the timeline is to re-establish a proper exchange (incl. make it open to new users and easy to add / withdraw funds).
maybe some other experts here can help.

thanks for perspective


A lot of people are using the bitcoin otc exchange on irc. Things might change once mt gox gets some liberty reserve.
irc://freenode/bitcoin-otc (http://irc://freenode/bitcoin-otc)  



Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: ribuck on November 03, 2010, 11:23:54 AM
Volume is dropping on the exchanges (MtGox, etc.).
According to the MtGox "All Time, Show Volume Data" chart, volume has been generally higher since MtGox lost the use of PayPal than it was before then. And that's BTC volume; if you wanted to look at USD volume that would show even greater increases.

Of course, it would be even higher if MtGox could still do PayPal, but I don't think there's anything to worry about.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on November 03, 2010, 11:36:30 AM
I never stopped accepting new users.
And like ribuck said the volume has been way higher for some reason since the paypal thing.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: kiba on November 03, 2010, 01:00:55 PM
Will MtGox shows volume for dollars?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: S3052 on November 03, 2010, 01:33:12 PM
I never stopped accepting new users.
And like ribuck said the volume has been way higher for some reason since the paypal thing.

thanks for the clarification.


What about adding new other ways than LR to add funds?


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: mtgox on November 03, 2010, 01:39:00 PM
S3052: Well I'm hoping a 3rd party will set up this service with various funding methods. It would be fairly lucrative if they just charged .5% to add or remove mtgox USD.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: FreeMoney on November 03, 2010, 07:43:40 PM
Will MtGox shows volume for dollars?

Also show all bids and asks at all times! I don't care if the graph is complete, but please make the table complete.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: S3052 on November 03, 2010, 11:12:45 PM
S3052: Well I'm hoping a 3rd party will set up this service with various funding methods. It would be fairly lucrative if they just charged .5% to add or remove mtgox USD.

Fair point.

 /... but WHO is doing that..?

Maybe we should provide an incentive.


Title: Re: paypal dropped mtgox
Post by: morpheus on November 04, 2010, 01:28:50 AM
S3052: Well I'm hoping a 3rd party will set up this service with various funding methods. It would be fairly lucrative if they just charged .5% to add or remove mtgox USD.

Fair point.

 /... but WHO is doing that..?

Maybe we should provide an incentive.

I'm doing it: http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1655.0