Bitcoin Forum

I'm rather new to the altcoin scene and after a few days of looking at which coins to invest in i decided on ones that are working on decentralized marketplaces as I feel that's where there could be a  future for altcoins. I found and invested in Syscoin and Bitbay and both seen to be at the same stages of development but the difference in marketcap is huge? Bitbay is something like 12% of Syscoins price! Is the only difference here marketing? or that Syscoin is on Poloniex and Bitbay isn't?

No disrespect for syscoins marketing team (they are doing a great job), but this is just the way it is in crypto. Sys and Bay have tended to be around the same price. A few months ago sys had half the marketcap that Bay has now, and then they had their pump. The pump in Bay has not started yet, so if you already have bought you can sit back and enjoy  ;)

BAY is closed source.

I'll feel a lot better when that gets remedied (he says he plans to in the future).

How can i invest in bitbay?

trex may have played a role but one has been pumped and the other has not... yet

Bay is traded on Bittrex, Bter, and C-cex. You can also buy directly in BitBay's own market. The biggest volume is usually on Bittrex

Syscoin is greater than Bitbay for sure!

You can get some Syscoin at https://poloniex.com/exchange#btc_sys (https://poloniex.com/exchange#btc_sys)

That is not true at all. Tell me why you think that.
They seek to do similar things but Bitbay looks like a better way of accomplishing it.

Both coins are way way better than your average shit coin but bitbay I heard was a better way of doing things than syscoin.

From an investment POV you would be probably mad to by syscoin at this point over bitbay.

Here is to the future of BitBay!
Buddy just accepted my contract to counter my bet that the EUR/USD will go up in value by 1% before Friday close of fiat market. As far as I know this is the first such transaction/contract of this kind for crypto!
No middle man needed. No escrow agent. No brokerage cut. And 100% guarantee that stop loss and take profits will be fulfilled.

This is just the beginning! Wait till this evolves with automated trading bots and python smart contracts!
Finally, a way where the small fish get the best rates and not just the massive institutions.
It's time you take your markets back people! No regulation because none is needed with DDE!

https://i.imgur.com/NLlDbxt.png?1

And don't forget that once BitBay is pegged, Bitcoin investors hedging their profits by converting to BitBay will cause the volume to skyrocket!
What better way is there to do that now? Nubits has issues. Coinbase seems to love to let you know that big brother is tracking your crypto to fiat exchanges .
With BitBay there will no longer  be a need to worry about government tax agencies trying to track your cash out profits from any cryptocurrency even if you are just trying to protect your investment profits and not spend them.

Who knows...
Maybe in the future, BitBay will be able to create the first Double Deposit Escrow backed mutual fund!


https://i.imgur.com/RLrLUvu.png

So in essence the whole purpose for this thread is to pump Bitbay.....nice  ;D

Syscoin's decentralized marketplace is already in production

Its open source

Its blockchain based and not P2P (ever try to use torrents on a cellphone? Ouch)

Escrow does not require parties to double deposit(think real world here, would a store and customer ever accept to double deposit?).

Since Sys is already fully functioning, we have honestly stopped comparing ourselves to roadmap projects and instead are concentrating on the only "competition" out there: OpenBazaar

http://i1.wp.com/syscoin.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/ChQczLCWkAACDLN.jpg

Good luck though, we respect all efforts towards decentralization.

What? I mean syscoin is great but surely Bitbay is better?  or am I wrong?

Is being blockchain based actually workable with this kind of thing? I mean if syscoin got any real user base would it not just start consuming enormous resources/space? how big will the block chain end up being?

I am a fan of bitbay but I have some sys too. From what I can tell Bitbay seems a way better way of doing things. However, I would love to see a full on comparison between the two with technical analysis that layman can understand.

Seems sys could never scale to any real world usage? or could it?

Isn't sys just a copy of what bitbay first set out to be?

I don't really think this thread is the best way to highlight these projects but still if a comparison must be made I would like to hear the facts from a tech pov not from just investors.  I'm merely and investor in both (more in bitbay ) but when last I was asking for some comparisons between them I got the notion bitbay was clearly built for scaling better for real world usage.

Syscoin tbh seemed to me to be a bit of a bitbay copycat coin that didn't think it out quite so well (this could be proven to be incorrect let's wait and see). However, congratulations for how quickly it was coded out.

Wait for the new features coming. David is a great person and being closed source means nothing because I know he is honest.. although he should open it up ASAP instead of sending around exe's etc.. I think its a good initiate and we are on different paths in terms of marketplaces... we are focused more on e-commerce and retailers although both platforms can handle it... right now the breadth of the problem is too big to solve for either one unless you focus on one task at a time. Syscoin is not a copy cat of any coin it was started out with the Namecoin style coloured coin transactions and grew from there. We have unit tests for our services which put it above any competition who claim to try to achieve a production ready platform for average users to use. We can't really compare bitbay to sys yet because bitbay isn't released... once its out and I see some unit tests I will get a sense of the quality (i have no doubt in David's capabilities) but i'm sure many people are still waiting for that. Also with the tests I will know exactly what is and isn't possible on bay that is on Sys and vice versa... still too early to tell. OpenBazaar is a valid comparison with Syscoin currently and nothing else as reflected by current marketcap.

Bitbay isn't released???

Bitbay has been in public beta for more than a year for windows. It's now out in release version!
Mac and linux are still in beta until we are sure there are no OS specific bugs
We will of course keep adding features and make it even more user friendly, and those updates will come quite often now that the groundwork is done thoroughly.

You can download it from our OP https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=890531.0 or our site http://bitbay.market/

Have fun :)

For me its considered released when I can read the code and get a picture of whats going on, I dont even bother looking the GUI until after. Generally it's good practice to direct developers to tests that show capabilities of the system and edge cases... not only does it increase code coverage and quality (bringing it to a production ready state where it needs to be when money is involved) but also gives others a chance to know what's going on without sifting through thousands of lines of code.

I'm sure it will come... its a great sector to be in thats for sure... decentralized markets are much needed for crypto in general. The velocity of money is what will create value for the underlying tokens being used.

I don't think nor do I hope that the bitbay code will be open sourced any time soon. If it can do what it promises to do and scales out as it should be able to then I sincerely hope david will not turn this code out into the wild to be copy and pasted by any and every other dev out there in 5 mins.

I hope he will do as the bitbay community wishes and keeps it closed source for a good long period of time and perhaps released when they are several generations ahead.

Sys is good and is at this stage more polished from the outside...but I feel bitbay will be a superior design in terms of scalability and resource efficiency (that may prove to be a false assumption of course) . Let's wait and see I guess. Both need to bring on lots of real world usage to test them out. Having 1000's perhaps 100'000's to millions of users will certainly be the acid test for both. Best to have some of each but I'm heavier bitbay right now.

So Satoshi shouldn't have open sourced bitcoin? How would a dev go and prove it is doing what is supposed to be doing, trust the EXE that your running on your windows even though your virus scanner is telling you its bad? Anyways if someone clones your codebase its not a bad thing, the base will always become stronger because the stems all depend from the base. You have to think about it the other way around. Yes bitbay has interesting features but like I said let's see the code with some tests and then we can put them side by side.. I believe they will serve different niches in the same sector but thats just a guess.

I could have done the same thing and kept Syscoin closed source, but I kept in the spirit of open-sourced development and Bitcoin by open-sourcing and showing all what I am working on every day. Closed source only makes sense if you a) depend on it for revenue and b) pretty much operate a company with DV test cycles (integration and unit tests) internally to ensure the code is bug-free from major fires. You would probably get preferablly multiple invested customers to use it and sign off on the beta/rc candidates as well. It doesn't make much sense here. If someone copies it and markets it better, heck good for them for pumping and dumping a new coin, but the base is what will retain any value.

Sometimes there is always going to have to be a element of trust. There are some that argue ethereum should have remained closed source for a time so the banks etc could not have immediately have cloned it. Perhaps there would have been some benefits to bitcoin having remained closed source. However, starting off back then closed source would probably have slowed adoption greatly. I'm not sure we should always quote satoshi and bitcoin as good comparisons or models for every new project. I mean David Zimbeck is hardly unknown like satoshi was when btc was first launched. We know exactly who he is in real life. There is accountability. Satoshi well who knows what his exact purpose of creating btc was, perhaps their purposes are not exactly the same. There are many different factors here so I can't say just because satoshi acted one way with BTC all coders should act exactly the same way with their projects. A delay in releasing source is a good idea in some cases.



Well everyone has different opinions. I just hope that he does not open source it after all his hard work just to see other coders copy and paste it. Several projects have kept their coding closed for quite a time to allow a period of time to pass and for updated versions to be created and improved before releasing the v1. Allowing themselves the headstart such hardwork and dedication to the task deserve. Mostly I only see others demanding open source from a well know project/dev with years behind them if they want to gain easily from work they have not done themselves. (not that I'm saying this appies to you in this case since you have your project based on a different method entirely)

Some will want open sourced in this arena but several successful projects have gone closed source and I think it has contributed to their success.

I've heard you are also a great coder/designer and it was your choice to open source your code as you went along. I feel the fact you did this and kept your community appraised on your ideas each step of the way has lead to your recognition and adoption. That is one approach.

I hope David does not choose this route and I don't think he will. Bitbay is rather interesting and rather different from many other projects. I think it's real value will become apparent over time with real world usage. He has been working very hard without saying all that much so far. However, he seems a very nice person and to my understanding a very smart guy too.

I wish syscoin well, I believe both should be top tier by the time they are done. There need not be an "there can be only one" type scenario. There is plenty of room for many market places. Let's live and let live. It's fine to compare like I say both you and David seem to get on well...let's just see how things turn out in the future. You do seem a very pleasant person so perhaps I should not have said it was a pure copycat of bitbay ..perhaps since it was because I'd not heard of sys before and then it appeared (to me) with a lot of similar functons as bitbay (which i had known about for 2years). If you had intended to do all the things with sys at the start anyway regardless of whether bitbay existed then fair enough only you can know if this is the case or not. I hope both projects get fair recognition  for such useful/functional projects.It's perhaps a shame you and David had not just started one project together years ago and worked together on something. It may have been something better than either one.

Damn it! I lost my EURUSD bet. :( If i don't pay up the difference I risk losing 99% more.
Oh well. No way to renege now.
My counterparty just earned price difference of .7% from escrow negotiated starting price based on a 15000 Bay deposit. So I own him 105 BitBays and since I lost I cover the anti-dust fee.

So should I pay him the 105 Bays or should I renege and lose 15,000 Bays?
I think I'll pay.

Up next... wanting to go hot and heavy on a "long" position based on a Cisco hunch and backed by DDE tech.
Anyone willing to take my offer let me know! I be waiting in the Client to negotiate price and time frame.

https://i.imgur.com/EW4VhFI.png

wow what a response! I didnt think i would get any replies. So do you think it is just because syscoin is on Polo that it is more popular? I didnt realize Bitbay was as advance as it is. Well done to both teams. I like this debate

Bitbay turned out to be a Bobsurplus pump and dump.  But the dev is still trying to save the project.  He should just drop it and move on. 

for someone with over 1000 comments you really are clueless.

Also for a 'pump and dump' it needs a pump . . i thought you would have known that too!

Is that so? Or is it that you don't like what a comparison between BitBay and sys looks like?

http://s20.postimg.org/r9t8x5qfx/Bay_sys2.png

I remembering a shady story with Bitbay.

Bloat not an issue in sys.. DDE won't work for network effect it's an easier implementation than arbiters I had dde and took it out for a reason.

Also next release includes moderation.

Multisig exists in sys because it is based on btc core.. it has many of the other features of btc that Bay might not have.. also sys has reselling and wholesaling with whitelisting support which Bay does not.. also Bay is not released so you can't even do a comparison until it is.. Sébastien already explained this. This seems more like a road map to current sys comparison to me.. I can put cool things on sys road map just to say it aswell.. the plugin system we are designing is also a killer feature in sys.

AS I said before these two projects seem to be targeting different audiences and niches of ecommercr.  You can't compare directly even though Bay is not out with these features anyways. I believe in David and we will see some cool stuff out of him but the two projects really are complementary to the crypto ecommercr market and not in direct competition to each other unless you can convince me otherwise.

Also how does Bay allow payment of any currency? We allow btc addressed to coexist with sys and you can pay with btc.. if your using cltv then sys can also do this.

How can you claim that Bay is not released? And please don't give me that crap about open source. By that definition a lot of software that we all use daily isn't released.
Actually we released a working beta a long time before sys. And we stayed in beta for more than a year to make sure all bugs are fixed.
Windows client is now in release version. Mac and Linux stay in beta until we are certain that there are no OS specific bugs. We really don't want to have mishaps like locking up someone's coins, do we?
So I guess the question isn't really how you can claim Bay is not released, but why you claim it. Do you fear the competition that much?
You should not. I agree the projects are partly complementary, although there are some areas where we are in competition. I don't see a problem with that though. There is plenty of room for both projects. In fact I believe success for one project will help the other project because the real challenge is to get Joe and Jane used to the idea of using platforms like Bay and sys.

Of course Bay is out with the features we claim to have. Anyone can check that by downloading our client

Bay can allow payment with any currency because we use DDE. As stated you need Bay for the deposit. But payment can be in any currency or even clams if you prefer because the DDE takes care of the safety in the deal. So if you want you can open up a new market channel for say Dodge, and offer anything for sale with payment in Doge.
When you post your offer you make your deposit, when buyer takes the offer he makes his deposit. Buyer sends Doge, seller sends item, and when both are happy they release deposit.

Edit: I know multisig as technology exists in sys. I assume you must be using it in your escrow. But in the above I was talking about multisig in the meaning of being able to use two keys on my wallet. To my knowledge that is not implementet in sys yet. Please correct me if I'm wrong

Also to add to this, BitBay investors may praise the fact that the source is closed but in essence, closed-source cannot be decentralized, until it's source becomes open, BitBay will never provide a decentralized marketplace.

You're telling me that the client has been released with all those features minus road map ones on your chart ypu just posted?

Scared of competition? I've repeated multiple times that we are lucky to have both projects.. and they will serve different audiences imo.

The decision to use arbiters was after the conversation I had with Vitalik buterin and I was leaning towards dde but held off as we came to a consensus that it's not the best idea at such an early stage. This was reiterated by the syscoin team during our design meetings. There is a path fwd for dde just not yet.

Me and David talk regularly and provide feedback to each other.. we are on same page about alot of things.. obviously his vision is a bit different in medium term than mine so as a result ypu may have a different user group in each project.. lmk when I can test the currency thing with dde I'll have to see to believe in terms of usability I know it's technically possible what you are saying.

Shadowmarket is coming..and there is a reason we have taken our time!   ;)

Why are you so keen to see the source?? all i see from the syscoin club is demands to see the source code. The projects are comparable NOW. You can't say because you can not see the source code that you can not compare the functionality and features.

SYScoin is it better than bitbay - i don't think so. However both projects above and beyond most on here. I don't think we will know which is truly better until they are experiencing wide real world usage. I like bays approach more but if syscoin says there is no bloat by doing it their way that too is rather interesting. I'm long bay at this point and of course at this price point you would have to be kind of crazy to not see that as having the better financial returns from this point.

To those rumbling on about the SCAM i don't think you understand what you are talking about. You do not penalize a community because it has been scammed and had its value extracted and those scamming have long gone also trying to destroy the project as they left. That is stupid. That's like saying your neighbours down the street who were burgled and had their home burned down are bad people for trying to rebuild it and should not be trusted?? what??

SCAM coins that should be avoided are the ones where the scammers are the ones running and benefiting from the project.

Yes, the client is released with all those features minus road map ones  :)

I guess you not knowing that explains your reaction in earlier post. I know you and David talk. I also think they will serve different audiences.
You can test the currency thing anytime. It's there. As I said you need Bay to use DDE. It is of course also possible to just use the market to post offers, and use someone trusted by both parties for escrow, but we don't encourage that. Besides that would only work for small communities like a coin. It can never scale.

Yeah... Good point , Dadon.
Haven't been following shadow lately. Can't say I agree with the goal of trying to create silkroad 2.0, but 'to each his own'. I believe in the long run, there a much bigger market for pursuing legitimate business which both BitBay and Syscoin are aiming at.

I know the anon approach probably creates the need for a lot more coding, which may I ask - how is the ring signature technology progressing?
You guys getting any closer to finalizing it?

Definitely lots of innovation out there to choose from for people from all aspects of life!

Hello,

I thought I'd chime in the dicussion, we at Shadow love seeing good debate intertwined with the right amount of anger. I owe you a word of explanation before I start taking a piss at everyone.
First things first, when people from both sides of two or more projects get in a heavy debate, they are merely defending what they have created. Their own blood, sweat, tears and spirit went into creating it, so they will defend that without giving up. I think it is important to recognize that most of us here have dedicated quite some time to either project and that knowing that fact should be the basis for mutual respect. Well, I respect it, you can feel whatever you want.

Nonetheless, this shouldn't be used as reason not to criticize the other for their bullshit.

To start off, sebastien1234 I hope you are either drunk or high on meth when you typed that. If what you've said (read quote) is your true opinion, I advice you to withdraw from this forum and to never come back. You're in charge of the PR, so I've read, stick to it and don't ever get mixed in technical discussions until you are 100% sure about what you're saying.

Its blockchain based and not P2P (ever try to use torrents on a cellphone? Ouch)

This is first class bullshit right here people. A blockchain is distributed in a P2P fashion, so by that simple analogy your argument is destroyed.
A blockchain would require you to fully synced before you can participate in any trading, meaning P2P like torrents would actually be a faster system by MAGNITUDES.
I don't know if you're from some country that has never heard of Quadcore smartphones and internet speeds that exceed 100Mb/s but torrents on a cellphone are pretty darn fast, just as fast as a computer.

Escrow does not require parties to double deposit(think real world here, would a store and customer ever accept to double deposit?).
Again, it is clear that your knowledge on double deposits doesn't reach that far. If I remember correctly, BitBay uses a model of FULL double deposits, so you have to put up 100% as insurance. In a real world model that wouldn't even be necessary, an insurance deposit ranging of 10% to 20% should be enough to keep scammers out. The economics behind this find their roots in game theory, something which I won't bother to explain. But you need to keep account of the loss of cash flow that a scammer encounters, even with a 10% insurance deposit, the scammer will run out of funds.

You're a good guy, but don't give people like me a chance to publicly ruin your credibility of the technical understanding. Bad for you own PR, just my two cents.


Is being blockchain based actually workable with this kind of thing? I mean if syscoin got any real user base would it not just start consuming enormous resources/space? how big will the block chain end up being?
That's a very good question, we at Shadow have been crunching the numbers for our own system. You definetly need pruning, does SYS do this?

Without pruning, obviously not. Even our system which only stores listing by default for 48 hours has problems with this when we check the numbers.
A simple scaling check shows that blockchain based listings don't scale. Say you have about 10,000 listings with each about 3 pictures on average with a 200KB, and I'm being optimistic because I truely hope sys is "downgrading" the images, because it is more likely to be in the range of 7.46MB (https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-average-file-size-of-a-photo-uploaded-to-Facebook) if they don't.
10 000 * 200 KB = 2GB of data at a given moment.

Now 10 000 listings can easily be made by less than a thousand merchants, so no sys probably will not scale. Disregard anyone trying to convince you otherwise, anyone trying to should do it by crunching the numbers like I did.

There are ways of mitigating these problems, but by using blockchain tech (every node must store everything) their only way out of scaling issues is by inventing a lite mode.
They have worked themselves in a corner by the blockchain, one which I doubt will ever scale to a wider angle.


Seems sys could never scale to any real world usage? or could it?
Bitcoin can't even do that, so you can't demand that syscoin pulls it off.


I haven't even gotten to my own critique to sys, mostly being their attitude towards "getting the job done, even if it involves leaving out core principles".
Their DirectBTC feature makes use of centralized components and don't even make a fair mention of being that way, pretty bad when you're promoting blockchain tech. It's feasable to do it in a decentralized manner, but they decided to rush it.

Don't get me started on the privacy issues of sys, you'll just blame me for shilling ShadowCash.

Lovely chat ol' chaps.
Keep on working on what you love as long as it makes you happy. Make sure you stay healthy and don't risk running into a burn out, it ain't easy for open source devs.
Everyone gets shitload of critique, but when you're working so hard for free, it can get heavy on your mental health.

Greetings,
Kewde

That was never our teams goal, out teams goal was to deliver the true vision of Satoshi as we believe it to be, a completely decentralized and private ( if you wish it to be) economic platform  made by the people for the people.
silkroad 2.0 was basically just a marketing headline by Vice's motherboard publication for an article they published on outr project and OB
P.S I really hope more people get behind SDC the team has really worked hard..just look at the passion and intelligence in the above post to catch a small glimpse inside the minds of our amazing dev team

We're being viewed as some group that tries to make a darknet market, but that is certainly not the goal.
Privacy is power, and thus paramount. People deserve to have power over their own life and in a world where mass surveillance is a thing, someone must provide the tools to cope with it.

Ring signatures are done, we're still discussing possible features based upon it and some minor improvements. We've had a bug that deanonymized us, we're glad that only a minor part of the total tokens pool was compromised (somewhere about 20% IIRC). We're making efforts on porting our ring signature library to the masses to be used in other C++ projects, this will spark more notice of it and peer review.


Also a word of advice, don't ever compare yourself to OB.
If you're going to shoot the king, you better make sure you kill him.

SO obvious that SDC trolls would come in here and hijack the thread... first of all your pretty stupid if you are storing images on the blockchain... and SYS won't have any scaling issues in regards to storage OR bandwidth more than bitcoin itself... you can check out the dev branch and figure out why. Most of the guys points dont make any sense. DirectBTC was intentionally coded the way it was because of usability purposes.. once a better solution is available it will be easy to switch it (CLTV implementation won't be any better for users currently). Anyways keep the discussion between Sys and Bay, where it should belong... open your own thread if you want to compare SDC to Sys :) thanks.

How would p2p market offers "keep-alive"? you have to have channels of nodes that ping each other contiiously now multiple that with say 10k nodes that all have some kind of offer in the same channel...I'd say at some point the "keep-alive" model starst to breakdown whereas the blockchain model thrives... the "keep-alive" model may work for smaller to medium sized networks but I believe blockchain would serve a better model for large scale adoption, especially once something like LN arrives.

we didn't hijack this thread! all legitimate projects deserve recognition don't they? so tell me please when everything about the sdc project has been not only fair but also extremely productive...why don't we get to be compared also?...shouldn't be a problem since the only legitmate competition to SYS is OB..right?

Not gonna get into it on this thread but SDC is off the radar for me after recent events aswell as my experience with their community.. i know others share similar experiences. Lets stick to bay and sys plz last time I ask, otherwise I fail to participate in any healthy debates. Make a new thread.

Cmon sidjwang be a good sport. Why dont you like stenography? Lets get back on target and talk about how bitbay owns yall in the side by side. What was it you were saying about data retention on the blockchain creating bloat? What data is centralized on sys in regards to the market which alleviates these concerns for you?

Every piece was dedicated to sys, so don't claim I hijack anything. I won't dicuss our project any further, but I will remain in the topic.
You can't just call everyone a troll that happens to doubt the architecture of your sofware.

I'm not storing images in the blockchain, I hope you aren't either. Care to elaborate on your design?
you can check out the dev branch and figure out why.
Yeah go find the needle in the haystack. I get it, you'd rather not have me analyze your method.
Please elaborate how you're getting the images across the network, please don't use a centralized server for this too  ::)


I believe blockchain would serve a better model for large scale adoption

As I've stated, please crunch the numbers on this one.

Does sys support blockchain pruning of expired listings at this very moment?

What components involve centralized services?
In regards to services like DirectBTC, does it properly route that traffic when a proxy is selected?

"DirectBTC was intentionally coded the way it was because of usability purposes.."
Can you properly define these usability purposes?

"Most of the guys points dont make any sense."
Just like your grammar. Please prove them wrong if you're going to make a statement like that.

You're probably a good programmer, but you just don't seem like a reasonable guy who is able to have a proper debate about the tech he's creating.

Greetings,
Kewde

Is whaleshark one of your puppet accounts or did he start the thread if he did.. not your call please hold your silence or shut the fuck up because the discussion is going to happen with or without your motherfucking blessing because this is not your thread and this is the fucking internet not north korea! don't tell me where i can discuss anything! sdc relates to these two projects and the OP was comparing the two projects because obviously he was intending on investing! so he is has the right to learn about other projects that may or may not offer more then the two already discuseed..stop trying to censor me got it! this isn't your thread, this isn't your world..open discussions are aloud, crypto was invented to take power away from people just like YOU who want to control everything to suit their agenda...not going to happen

Nope you are.  Know your history bud:  http://cointelegraph.com/news/chat-logs-allegedly-show-bter-creating-and-pumping-its-own-coin

Bitbay's dev thought he was creating a legit project but Bobsurplus and co. had other plans. 

You cant have a discussion with an SDC troll.. never going to happen.. tried many times thus giving up. Just look at the way you came in and started ripping into anything sys... I get it you guys wanted to corect Sebastien and "put him in his place" with a healthy overdose of SDC. Nice one linking entire OP, your just so subtle in your ways.

Bloat wont be an issue like I said period. Links are serving images.. its simple. I get what you are doing and your audience is much different than Sys, moreso than bay. Theres more to reveal with Sys soon I cant get into details but stay tuned for 2.1 release where I will answer your guys questions in depth. Anyways goodluck with the thread and your coin(hope your anon works out although i doubt it), anyone reading can see for themselves. This thread has now been hijacked by SDC trolls and we are back to 0 knowledge discussions. /end thread. U can have your last word below kiddos.

The above is a little dated and many improvements have been made but this is the preview of our up coming Alpha

We wanted a discussion..you wanted dictatorial authority over A conversation on a thread you didn't start..these are the results..reap what you sow

Is 2.1 when you guys get sued for using an ebay logo? Did you integrate etsy? Is there a browser integration for instagram filters? Or are you guys reconsidering your reconsidering of the swap and everything else you hyped 2.0 to be? Because it looks like you just updated the front end so it doesn't look like it is from 1998 and added a centralized escrow function.

Wow you found that article congrats!! You must know so much now more than me!

The 'Dev' David HAS created a legit project and not just that, one of the more advanced projects in the whole of crypto!

If your going to go down that angle Isn't Lisk just crypti getting a rebrand? Which was a BobSurplus project? So in theory Lisk is a Bob coin??

David did not know the project was going to be scammed or dumped.. if he had known I'm sure he wouldn't have gone through.. anyways he already had invested so much work in it so it's kinda hard to give up on that cause of some pump and dump scheme ruining it all.. anyways just like syscoin which had its ico funds stolen we kept going.. the market rewards those who don't give up in the face of bad actors trying to ruin the project

Well regardless of the intentions now it's still a tainted past..yes sdc isn't perfect we had that bug in the code..but our origins are clean at least.

Sorry for pointing out the truth on Bitbay.  But that's what really happened.  The dev got conned into believing they were creating something legit but then Bob and co. had other ideas.  BTER was involved too.

And BAY has no volume...  Look how much is being traded daily.  Not one serious investor is touching BAY with a 10 foot pole.  A lot of people are bagholding BAY and are really frustrated.

Explain your crazy logic because it does not make any sense.

Why should an investor not invest with bitbay. You are obviously struggling are you not?

Yes I would not invest with a known scammers project but these scammers tried to ruin the project (david is the project) after taking 4 5ths of the devlopment funds and dumping all their bay trying to crush the coin.

I explain already why you are foolish to continue with this assumption and yet you continue.

A project should only be treated as a pariah if there are scammers running the project or benefiting from it in any way. Why would you think that a project that has been the victim of a scam should be shunned? David has stuck around with hardly any funding working for free and you say there is an ethical reason investors would have not to invest with bitbay.

I already gave you and example but I will post it here again since you obviously did not read it.

You need to realise the people that now make up the bitbay community and the developer are the SCAMMED not the SCAMMERS???

It's like saying people who had their house broken into and burned have a dirty past and you will not have anything to do with them.

Please think about what you are saying before making yourself look more foolish.

Explain your logic or refrain from repeating groundless statements.

When i invest in things I tend to research them first. I think david building this with no development funds is more to his credit than if he had of had funds to work with don't you?

I can only imagine you are related in some way to those scammers that tried to scam everyone and destroy the project. Either that or you're a secret investor of a competing project.

Believe what you want.  Bitbay's miniscule daily trading volume speaks for itself...  No one is interested in Bitbay.  Good luck with your investment.

There are other projects like SDC with no ipo no premine no instamine no nothing just small community developments that have done just as much if not more then other coins with shady history's...we managed to get this far without anyone getting ripped off..why couldn't your devs/ maybe because there not quiet as competent i would dare say...the only people who get suckered are the ones who blindly follow things without question...clearly not anyone you want to trust your hard earned money with...let alone develop a financial system..

Bitbay uses full deposit as default, but you can set the deposit to anything you want.

That's why your copy paste code breaks right yup competent devs alright.. you just keep digging further yet you trolls don't stop. Anyways sys essentially had no startup funds and did it just like you claimed sdc did yet actually released something that's working.

I'm not a dev so i will let them answer your accusations...at least nobody's ipo got ripped off...even if they copy all the code! and they didn't.. at least nobody lost their money because of incompetence...

I wouldn't be investing if everyone was already interested and it was top 5-20 CMC. The point of investing is to find good tech that nobody is currently aware of or do not understand the usefulness of. I don't like to start investing in a project when there is already great interest and high cost of entry. There is a greater risk of loss and smaller returns on investment in most cases.

 If you understood the tech and usefulness of this project you would understand the possible investment potential. If you don't believe this or flat out deny the work that has gone into it then I'm sure you could have a public discussion with david regarding the technical side of things to help you grasp the work that has gone into this behind the scenes. It is a sleeping giant if it ever gets fully finished and polished (imho)

Show me 10 opportunities with greater upside potential than bitbay at this point and I will buy some of all 10 if I do not already own some. The market cap of this coin considering the development is a comparatively good gamble.  Of course to any one reading this do your own research never trust anything you read on this board blindly. This is my opinion only. Nothing is a sure thing and Bay is not finished as yet.

The constant folly of mentioning the scam is complete rubbish. Bitbay(bitbay is david and the community) were scammed . So ethical reasons for not being interested are non-existent. The only other reason for not being interested would be you do not believe in the usefulness or ability of the project (the code). If you have examined that at length and decided it is not for you then fair enough, only time will tell which was the smarter choice. Just don't persist with the scam accusations as being ethical grounds for not becoming involved with the project that simply does not add up.

^^^
Who is this ???

SDC ? that broken pile of junk that caused many previous investors to lose a fortune because their code was trash?

Those investors were ripped off, they were scammed. They though they were investing in something that worked. Not some broken contraption that would reduce their net BTC worth. I heard (maybe just a conspiracy theory )this was an intentional flaw and the devs there had their buy orders in ready to scoop all those cheap coins up. This mean the scammers are still involved with your project. I'm not sure which is worse. You can't code reliable code or you want to manipulate and hoard all the coins to dump later.

either way clearly not anyone you want to trust your hard earned money with...let alone develop a financial system..

Just think what mistakes they will code into something this complex. I wouldn't list an old pair of shoes on your market place. Now please make your own thread. The OP asked for a comparison between 2 serious projects sys and bay. He does not want to be drawn into investing in poorly coded broken trash that will fail and leave him in financial ruin.

The other guy discussing sdc seemed more reasonable but you only understand the direct approach i see with no room for cordial discussion. Now stop attacking other projects and make fair comparisons on the tech or you'll draw others to your level and SDC is a sitting duck in that case.

If you seek to make fair comparison now based on the tech of the projects at this date then fair enough. If you seek go outside of this and add other factors to the comparison then we must do the same. Your usual posting style is not suitable to cordial discussion. Tone it down else get the same in return.

thats the biggest load of shit i have ever heard hahaha....any proof to those claims?

BTW i invested in SDC like 2 years ago and i never got ripped off so please explain what you are talking about the shady background of bitbay and sys are facts yes we had a small bug in our code that was fixed without a problem and we upgraded to pos 2.0 at the same time we fixed it...so....what are you talking about?

Here we go mate! I made a thread specially for all the people who you say got ripped off by SDC to voice their disgust

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1473778.new#new

i will be waiting to see who got ripped off... hey if we got nothing to hide lets make these accusations..really...really..public.

I sure hope you got your facts straight or your going to lose a lot of credibility...and im going to keep bumping that thread.... :-\

I'd say the question is what are you talking about? This is a thread that discusses differences between Syscoin and BitBay. Preferably in a respectful manner. So far I haven't seen you contribute to that discussion at all. Maybe you should let your team mate from sdc Kewde, inspire you. He was able to make some interesting contributions to the discussion. I believe that had a much better marketing effect for sdc than what you are doing.

Lol at this shadowcrash team, instead of delivering an overdue market you were suppose to bring out since early 2015,
instead of answer the questions of concerned users about the "market" (so far vaporware as have not delivered anything at all)
without being opensource at all (everything done on closed code, no other user can really do anything) so if that is not centralized
I dont know what is it, you fight every other project that is not shadow, ShadowCrash has become the cancer of Crypto.

And now you come to other projects that are really working hard, just to try get some PR for your ShadowCrash scam.
It lasted long already dont you think, either shut up and deliver what you offered or gtfo and continue to play your community as dumbs.

After all they ve been waiting for a year for a non existent market, and instead of focusing the resources to finish and
give the investors some trust, you just answer to any investor that asks about it: "Go dump, developers work for free they dont owe you a thing"

You guys are a joke  :D

Im not trying to market SDC that shit is pointless...you are all invested in your own thing the fact is sdc gets ignored and its a legitmate project...maybe we need to re-read the OP!

I'm rather new to the altcoin scene and after a few days of looking at which coins to invest in i decided on ones that are working on decentralized marketplaces as I feel that's where there could be a  future for altcoins. I found and invested in Syscoin and Bitbay and both seen to be at the same stages of development but the difference in marketcap is huge? Bitbay is something like 12% of Syscoins price! Is the only difference here marketing? or that Syscoin is on Poloniex and Bitbay isn't?
 sounds like he want's investment advice to me...sdc is cheaper and imo better...why wouldn't i suggest it.

You say scam wheres your proof...iv'e been buying BTC since 2011...you act like im naive haha you make me laugh...and close source everything....you are too much...i swear to god...you have 11 posts have you been in crypto for a week? sdc completly closed source are you joking me?

see, there you go to play dumb again, its clearly stated we were talking about your supposedly "Shadow Market"
where is the opensource code?

See, now you will just invent another excuse.. Know the history, you guys are hilarious

uhmmmm the shadowmarket hasnt been released yet? its about to go into Alpha you can check the source then

Let's analyse the facts.

1. the shady past. - so we've ruled out the ethical pariah due to bitbay (dev and community) being scammed not the scammers.
                         - so now you say well if the community and david were scammed then that is now reason not to trust them with future decisions?
That makes no sense. One David is now in control and is the sole coder. If anything this will make him 100x more careful and less trusting. You are therefore left assuming david must be stupid and will again let himself be scammed and not take all precautions above and beyond what any other smart person would take. Perhaps you need to have a public debate with david to see how smart he is now that you are alleging he must be stupid and will be more likely to be scammed again than any other smart person?


2. the small bug?? - well as I heard it. The small bug was not a small bug. The person that found it said that huge amount of anonymous data was not anonymous any more? is that not correct?? I mean if that was correct on a anonymous market place I'm sure that would not be classed as a small??? I also heard  they stole code from eclipse to solve their issues. Of course this could all be false and no truth there at all?

If you want to compare the current tech of these 3 projects then go ahead.

Anybody who got ripped by the supposed sdc scam can post their proof here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1473778.new#new ...still waiting

No need, there is an uncensored thread already:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1200091.new#new

No one will fall in your game and pathetic attempt of bringing Shadowcrash some pr.

Drops the Mic, Im out.

1. your devs got there communitys money ripped off because they are stupid i never said not to trust them just that they shouldnt be trusted with anyones hard earned money..because they have already proven tht there too stupid to trust with it and thats evident because people got ripped off.
2.
the bug took like less then 2 weeks to fix and they released the fix with pos 2 so wasn't that big...clearly....and no body was using the anon transactions hahaha the market hasn't been released...nobody's sensitive information was leaked?? and that was the reason their was a bug bounty...because the devs are busy...the bug bounty was paid..and it's not an issue anymore..being busy an overlooking minor issues that can turn into bigger ones..is a mistake anyone can make..intelligent or stupid...blind following is only reserved for one of those two

oh drops the mic.... well they can post it here also then..still yet too see anyone come forward..im sure you will rally a few sock puppet accounts soon no doubt

I have 3 questions.
1. how did bitbay with it's oh so more compitent devs then sdc allow the project to turn into a bobsurplus pump and dump?
2. how did syscoin with it's oh so more compitent devs then sdc get the ipo ripped off?
3. does anyone have proof the sdc devs ripped people off..or is it just FUD..unlike my accusations..that are real..established..facts that people did acctually get ripped off by members of the team of sys and bitbay...even if there not members now!...they were..and we have proof..where your proof for any team member of sdc past or present ripping anyone off..show me the proof and i will give you back the thread

Nobody cares about your silly thread. It's a matter of perspective really. I don't have a big issue with SDC and have some in my collection. However you need to be more friendly in your discussions. You can't expect friendly back when you come over so hostile.

However if you invest in something you think is solid and you have faith in the devs ability to code. If that code has a bug and you lose financially then...... let's say it's not a positive thing.

Let's continue with the techincal and features comparison between the 3 projects  if you wish to join the syscoin vs bitbay thread. No need to take a cordial discussion and turn it into a war zone.

Crypto hunter im going to quote what you just wrote about SDC to show the world how utterly bi-polar you are

Now you claim to have no issue with SDC just the devs that you accused of ripping people off...are you mentally stable? serious question..because that was complete bi-polar shit
and btw i was talking fairly civilized too until someone tried to censor me on the internet on a thread he did not start..this is crypto..crypto is full of people like me who actually believe in things like free speach! check my post history see if i troll other coins threads...i don't..i don't need too.

I don't want you to give me back the thread. The thread is not yours to give.

1.This was not just a pump and dump this was theft and fraud involving a complicit exchange. In theory since the tokens are almost at ico level the only person scammed was david now. He has worked essential for nothing for years to rectify this. This point of attack is weak at best and pathetic at worst. I mean the counter argument to this is a/ it will make an already smart person even less trusting than a person that has not been scammed and made to pay for it with years of his life. b/ it demonstrates just how trustworthy and hardworking he is and what morals he has. It totally nullifys your point and reverses it into a strength for the project.

2. syscoin i think was ripped off by an exchange too. But i am not so familiar with their story

3. I said I'd heard and that it could be a conspiracy theory not that the bug was intentional. However with that being said if you invest in something you are told is anonymous and it turned out it was not anonymous you have been scammed or duped. If you lost your anonymous position and that landed you in prison that could be an issue. If you lost money because the market dipped on this news and you bailed then again you have lost. Either way to me ANY bugs like that in such a sensitive project are NOT positives.


Now either join the technical discussion of the projects where they are now or keep trying to bring in the past it's your choice but I would say sys and bay have less to worry about in the past than shadowcrash.  So let's all get along and stick to the comparison of the projects in current form.

1. would never be stupid enough to put my money with anyone who would even consider holding an ico..so don't really care your problem
2. since you don't know either don't care either
3. you clearly called the devs scammers i called your dev stupid...my opinion..yours is a baseless accusation almost slander.... your disgusting

I said I'd heard and it may be a conspiracy theory. Please read the post again. I have explained why an investor could feel scammed even if the bug was a genuine misake. It's a case of perspective.

I can't keep repeating myself. If you read all of my posts it will become clear, if not then just assume I have bi-polar, makes no different to me or him.

I see it as a weakness that you are not able to discuss the projects in their current form regardless of them being stolen from in the past or having code bugs. It seems you do not feel the sdc project can compete on its current merits alone? or do you?

1. that's your choice - i wish others shared those sentiments.
2. you seem to care because you keep bringing it up?
3. you need improve on your comprehension ( and spelling). Matter of perspective.

it is 'you're disgusting'

I'm sorry you feel that way :(

so if sdc investors got ripped off because we had a bug...does tht mean bitbay investors got ripped off because they invested their money into a project they thought was solid when it was just a pump and dump?...because sdc devs didn't know the bug was there..and bitbay didn't know bob was going to rip them off (rofl) i remember when i saw bob involved with bitbay..openly!..he was a know scammer then...only 2 things explain that stupidity or deceitfulness....everyone knew about bobsurplus when he got involved with bitbay..everyone who was anyone..your dev either knew or was completely too stupid to handle anyone elses hard earned money....we had a bug! big difference

someone come forward and tell me bob surplus was not a known scammer before bitbay and someone come forward and tell me he wasnt openly involved with the project.. i remember..because i almost bought bitbay till i saw bobsurpluses account..

maybe i should open a thread about bob and if he was a known scammer before bitbay...and if anyone of the early community remember him being active in development..because i do

so what was it..stupidity...or deceit?

OK y'all are getting off topic af and need some real info here. SDC was deringed due to a bug in the ring sig implementation which means you did exaggerate things cryptohunter. The code is quite good and many improvements have been made which show that sidjwang also doesn't know what hes talking about. He is a pure troll. Stealth addresses were still intact, noone lost funds as in the new eth hack, no one person was even doxxed. All this happened before the market release so no risk really. It only affected a small portion of the chain. It was all patched in less than a week due to an active and smart community and devs.

Dadon cool your jets. DAAAAMN SON quadruple posts... knowwutimean?

I would like to get back on topic and rewind to my posts @sidhujag:
and
Neither of which were addressed or responded to.

Yeah your right...but if you want to start throwing accusations around expect them thrown back...sys got there ipo stolen..and bitbay must of knowingly or unwittingly( though i don't know how) associated with a scammer because everyone knew what he was for a long long long time before bitbay... just facts..nothing more nothing less

But it was you that started with the accusations. You simply don't like your caustic approach aimed back at you do you?

Now let's return to the  project comparisons in their current form.

 NO he did i just finished it by exposing the fact that bob was known scammer by everyone here way before bitbay got scammed

Again I post this with no reply

I told you guys the threads hijacked by sdc trolls... now you see what I'm saying just ignore them they are the worsed breed out there guys.. let's just ignore and continue on.. maybe some good will come of it. TRUST ME I've tried and I laughed my ass off at their tricks

Ewok I rewrote entire source in 2.0 and some cool stuff coming in 2.1 thank you come again.

I'm not a troll if im a troll pull out 10x from my chat history where i troll! i have a lot of posts so shouldn't be too hard.

you got all these accusations..im a troll..sdc tech is shit..sdc dev team are scammers...no proof..all can see that...but what happend to the ICO bro?

That is the best advice,

I created a thread as well, i honestly believe shadow has become the cancer of crypto,
everyone in the crypto community can share their vote.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1473811.0

Says the shill account that's sole purpose is to troll sdc. Such reputable opinion. Such knowledge.

Still waiting for a real reply from sidjwang.

Hey I just started reading this thread and it is pretty interesting. Honestly, I think you underestimate how manipulative Bob is.

As anyone who knew anything about Bitbay, it was Steven Dai and Linn who approached me. Not Bob. Bob and Gekko only introduced themselves the day before. You can see this because Bob moronically dumped his chat logs on BCT with the txid of the 500 btc he kept.

When Bay started BTER was still a respected exchange. This was before their cold wallet hack.

I went into the project because of Steven. He promised me Chinese devs, financial support. I figured 5 people working on it made sense. It was not my project. The Halo business model included licensing which obviously now I see as a mistake since that puts my reputation on the line. You live, you learn.

I'm not a trader. I'm a coder and I had no clue who Bob surplus was. I've got better things to do than to waste time on forums. His Skype he goes by International Rob. So we only talked on Skype. Not to mention an investor and Gekko had flown out to China to meet Lin. But like I said I had not met Bob until days before. After meeting him I almost backed out cause he gave me the creeps. But Steven promised me it was okay. He said they would help with marketing as neither he or Lin wanted to do that. Since they only wanted me as project manager it made sense at the time.

So these guys gave me assurance that they were not going to fuck me over. And i did express concerns. Plus Steven paid a deposit on my work in advance. This is old news, you can read Bitbays Reddit and not to mention the news covered this in my favor I might add. Ian Demartino was the only news that desperately wanted to propagandize me. But he was unable to!! He read all of my chat logs, we spent like 5 hours on the phone and he found no proof that I was anything but a coder.

Besides why would I willingly let someone abuse my name and scam me. I'm not anonymous that's the stupidest thing ever. I would have to be masochist or retarded. I assure you I'm neither.

What happened to Bitbay was good old fashioned sabotage. And propaganda. Politics, smear campaigns your typical crap that makes the world as fucked as it is. Propaganda is evil hopefully a special place in hell is reserved for those that partake in it.

By the way, it wasn't less than a couple weeks of hell before I told everyone what went on. I would consider that pretty fast. It's been more than one year since then and I've been coding ever since.

Oh yes a year is long in crypto, my memory is coming back, it was a fascinating story.

Well I'm sorry about that and If you didn't know that understandable if you were not active here, but when i saw him in the thread alarm bells went off...anyways..the whole reason i commented originaly on this thread was just to give a head up about there is more competition then just sys vs bitbay...but then the project i have supported for over 2 years was personally attacked..and i had a bad day..so i didn't react the way i normally would...my apologies..because i have seen you in our thread and i respect you immensely...so please do accept my apology..

OP was shill working for BitBay anyways.

On the other hand, perpeptuating bullshit conspiracy theories and then saying 'maybe' doesn't free you of any guilt.




It was in fact a small bug from the technical point-of-view, which was easily resolved in a fast and professional manner. The definition of a small bug is one that only affects a particular area of code that is deemed small. There were no systematic bugs due to bad architecture.

Yes anonymous data as leaked, but the scale on which it happened was way overblown by XMR trolls. Only about 1/5 of the SDT tokens were spent, the others remained valid and anonymous.

We didn't still code from eclipse. I really want to punch people in the fact that make claims like that. They stole our whole source code added a minor, yet elegant fix to and it claimed it as theirs. Their argument is fucking nuts. We had a solution, but they had critique on our way of doing things, so we've adapted our design to fix that critique by using a similair method they used. Eclipse had not invented the wheel here, they merely adopted the solution proposed by the original bug hunter.
 

Oh well thank you, I appreciate it. Honestly, I have a good amount of respect for sys and shadows devs because I know how much work goes into what they do. In fact just recently chatted with the SDC dev about cryptography and security. He seemed pretty knowledgeable and I think they will deliver a product.

This software stuff takes time. Like the previous commenter said "one year in crypto". That just about sums up how crazy it is for developers who can take years coding something. Software is never done. Adobe Photoshop will have a new version every year for our grandkids.

So you combine the impatient vicious wolf of wall Street penny stocks where nobody holds for more than a week, with government agencies and their agendas for finance, with developers who in contrast need years to finish their work. They shouldn't work alone but they do, they need devs marketing and years of solid support depending on the scope of the project. And they hardly ever get that support.

So honestly all devs have my support, we know what you go through, if it's ico issues, hacks, FUD or just long days it's a bitch.

And for all the dishonest " devs" that aren't really devs? Well someone needs to throw them in the ocean

So yeah penny stocks and development....

It's like combining fire with water.

Kewde, as for OP I dont participate in forum stuff. If some of the guys at Bitbay post a thread it's their thing to spark debate.

Personally I don't consider forums marketing. I think journalism is the best method of marketing.

I'm far to busy coding this damn thing to pay attention.

However, this thread caught my attention because they did tell me about it on slack and I saw some interesting comments, felt like it was worth responding.

Keep up the hard work bud, Im sure it will pay off.

Hi David,

I agree with you on that, the community behind a coin can and should do as they see fit.
Debate is a positive thing as long as people stick to facts and not conspiracies.

You keep on coding David, but take a break from time to time so we can keep up with you  ;)

I wish we could have had this discussion in a less hostile mood and if anyone wants to continue this discussion, please do so.

On a different note, I was a bit suprised how the sys crew handled the situation. Instead of addressing my legitimate concerns they went straight to battle with the so called "trolls". Which in my opinion seems like an attempted escape of a hard yet truthful discussion.

Have fun ol' chaps,
Kewde

I'm not at all surprised at the trolling behavior of sdc members here it's come to be expected... if you didn't enter the thread by name calling and belittling people without fully understanding what your talking about maybe you would get honest answers :) just scroll up a bit and you will see.

You can add me to Skype and we can talk technicals away from the little trolls that make it hard to communicate effectively.. I'm sure we can then get on the same page. Just send me a pm.. David and I always on there anyways.

Yesterday I should of made my own thread...It was an error on my behalf and i admit that.
But.. I was only giving a friendly reminder that SDC market is on the way.

this was my first post in this thread.


and i got this reply from another member who was very friendly and this was the reply


Then i verbally abused him with this message because i am clearly a terrible human being unlike you.


this was then you interrupting our conversation.


conclusion.
you cause trouble then claim victim status...more pathetic then manipulative..but manipulative none the less..please stop now..the evidence is clear

This is my last post in this tread sorry for hijacking it all but that wasn't my original intention..My intention was to point out there are other projects similar being worked on that don't get the attention they deserve..next time i will open my own thread..too easy too start drama in this very immature crypto community.

I called it out didn't I? You were quadruple posting with the long ass op in there on purpose and taking your bad day out on people here trying to have real conversations.. you should only look in the mirror for what went wrong and I perfectly predicted it would happen cause past may not repeat but it sure does rhyme.. only person immature is you dude get over it.. and I'd you had listened to me in the first place about a new thread instead of telling me to fuck off then you would look alot better now wouldn't you.. Instead I got you on ignore and I'm sure others do too. Cya

yeah after you attacked SDC personally i never said anything about whatever coins tech you hold you started this,
i never personally attacked or mentioned any other project but my own untill you started mouthing off..that is clear in the conversations i posted..
you don't own this thread! i am allowed to say something like " sdc market is on the way" like big deal! the other guy in the thread who commented didn't see a big deal with it.your the one who started getting aggressive..sorry if reacted in the way you wanted..that tends to happen when you stir shit and ask for trouble, by me mentioning sdc in a thread not attacking you or anyone one or project..mentioning sdc in a thread you don't.. own on the internet you don't control, does not grant you permission to start personally attacking projects and people and when you do, do that people have the right to do it back to you...
yes this conversation is over and will be the last i have with you..you now also join also my ignore list you are number #4 in almost 3 years here #benthatch #bobsurplus #someotherprick #you
welcome, enjoy your stay

No you were the one to first attack bitbay (david) saying he was a fool and you would not be stupid enough to back a project with him leading it because he is obviously a fool for getting scammed in the ico out of his development funds.

Hence why you needed to experience some of your own medicine. Then you start crying yourself saying how disgusting the comments were.
Still you persist with your foolishness rather than to compare the projects as they are now.

no...

Yesterday I should of made my own thread...It was an error on my behalf and i admit that.
But.. I was only giving a friendly reminder that SDC market is on the way.

this was my first post in this thread.


and i got this reply from another member who was very friendly and this was the reply


Then i verbally abused him with this message because i am clearly a terrible human being unlike you.


this was then you interrupting our conversation.



Just for the record my seconf message on this thread was going to be my last i had no intention of attacking any projects personally but i live in a society where if people personally attack you, you don't just accept it and move on.



That's how the conversation went if you read back like 2 pages it's clearly evident that i was causing no trouble till he mouthed off and so did you! so welcome #5 also enjoy your stay

Yes but he did apologize for attacking Bitbay. I can understand how some people didn't know about the details of bobsurplus and bter/Steven. He could have very well simply not known or taken the time to read what the news said etc.

As for the rest of the FUD, it actually made me laugh. I suppose it's just one of those things, you gotta laugh at life, and (insert meme here)

Anyways kewde if you want you can post here with your own comparisons of SDC market to sys/bay and its prospective features. This is tech talk. It's all good. I already know some of your advantages, don't be shy to talk about them. Or if you prefer away from trolls like Sid said I'm on Skype... Guess my super anonymous name there. The NSA will never discover my Skype name muahahaha.

By the way, earlier Sid brought up open source. Not sure if I already mentioned this but you can download the HaloOBF.zip package and build it. You can verify that it doesn't do anything evil. There is no servers and you can also build my Bitmessage from that package too. There is only two burn addresses in it The BitcoinEater and BitCoinEaterAdios base58 hash for Blackcoin. I have been meaning to just use 6a but that is very low hanging fruit. Oh and there is a donation address which I should change to two pubkeys instead of a set address so the magic byte is different for each multisig (in case I do DogeHalo)

So the source can actually be audited as long as you can tolerate obfuscated variables. SoFashionVeryCrypto99 or FindTheVWinAPrize321GOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWVWWWWWWWW or DorianOnTheMoonSuch

Kewde if VeritasBS is still there ask him about when he tried to reverse engineer my python for some laughs.

FYI speaking of breaks, I'm on vacation this week sort of repairing my truck and hanging out at the beach in Mexico.

You are right, you did not start the abrasive comments, Kewde however, did. This was exactly what Sidhujag was referring to, if representatives of your community cannot converse in a civilized manner then I'm afraid your cause is lost. As much as some valid questions he may have had, he completely closed the door to conversation by being insulting:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1456464.msg14860563#msg14860563

Then as sidhujag mentioned, you highjack the thread by replying to each other and posting the entire ann thread of SDC (which is now removed).

Sebastian1234  thanks for linking kewdes comment, I want to reply to a ceaveat on that.

Kewde says Bitbay requires 100% double deposit. It does not! There is CUSTOM deposit options right in the templates AND a reputation system.

Custom deposits can be anything you want. Also you can have guarantor contracts where only one side deposits.

And escrow in crypto must be double deposit or else arbiters can collude and steal 100% of the escrow as 2 of 3 keys they only need to enter into the contract secretly as buyer or sell to steal.

So double deposit is a MUST unless you want to get robbed.

Yeah  I'm sure there is a few honest arbiters but there is no way in hell I would encourage 2 of 3 with anonymous markets where they can steal with impunity. And no amount of debate will change my mind here.


I know SDC is also going a double deposit route, which I'm excited to see that completed and would be interested to see how they handle the user experience different from how we did.

Nice! And totally different from the use-case class I was expecting.

How'd the double-deposit escrow work for you?

I don't know game theory. Can you please elaborate on that? Why would 10% deposits be enough?

If anyone wasn't fully understanding anything it was sebastien1234.

I also never entered the thread with "name calling and belittling", I wrote a technical post giving critique on one of the members of your team and the system itself, with a humorous undertone to make it more of a light read.

I'll spare you the effort and sum them up again.
"sebastien1234 I hope you are either drunk or high on meth when you typed that"
"bullshit"
"stick to PR"

If you can't handle a silly joke and some serious critique towards incompetence, then that's your problem but don't put the blame on me for your own personal issues.

Before and after the post I've expressed my respect towards your dedication and efforts, yet somehow all of you seem to stick to your game plan to act like I came in like a wrecking ball screaming and fudding.

I'm not defending what any other members have done or said here, but you can't just project those feelings of hatred towards a whole project when in fact it was a single individual.
By definition that is discrimination, and it is as bad as being a racist.




My comments were civilized by the standards of Bitcointalk, you were just wrong on so many points that you had nothing to come back with.
If you categorize my "funny" comments as insulting than so be it, but I'd rather believe the above^.

It still ponders me how you could make such a mischievous statements. My first reaction was that you knew what you were saying was wrong (because it obviously was for anyone with a bit of a technical background), but you don't mind lying to get an advantage by using fallacies. The thread starter explicitly mentioned that he was a newbie, thus I was a bit fueled by rage.


Everyone (but mostly companies) have a cash flow, which is the amount of money coming in versus the amount going out.
You want to have a positive CF, more flowing in than out.

So when you put 10% of money "locked" down that means you can't use it for other purposes like paying bills or buying new stock.
Locking 10% makes you lose x% of possible profit. Basically they you have a leverage: for every 10USD you have you can turn it into 11USD in for example a week.
Well if you try to scam someone and they lock the funds for anything longer than 10 weeks you are now losing possible profit.
You've scammed yourself ;)

Obviously this only works if the other party is adamant enought to not release the funds to safe his own cash flow.
It all depends on who has the highest leverage (biggest profit margin) which is obviously the seller.

I see your point and its a valid one.
I guess the problem would be to educate the scammers in game theory before they go broke  ;D

To elaborate on 10% deposits...

If you do let's say a basic sales contract, seller puts 10% to prevent extortion attack and the buyer advances the payment he would have made anyways thus it works identical to double deposit.

Example

Guitar 1btc
Seller advances .1 btc
Buyer advances 1(payment) and .1 btc

Thus when Guitar is sent buyer must unlock funds or pay 10% extra.

Why would buyer pay 10% more since he loses funds doing so (he pays 1.1 instead of 1) so he would only perform this attack out of spite.

When you combine with a reputation system as we have in Bitbay then those deposits make sense for seasoned buyers and sellers who are low risk of being self destructive


In the case of the seller he can extort easier here with more leverage at 10 to 1. But still, extortion may not pay. Communication can be limited(we have this as an option) and we don't allow partial payments out of escrow. So honestly not only would it again wreck reputation but probably not pay off.

Regardless, the fact that we don't want to give the seller or buyer leverage is why the recommended deposits are equal to the value.

And honestly, people usually have funds to cover their daily volume. And it's worth it of course because it eliminates the courts and eliminates theft from existence

we don't allow partial payments out of escrow.

I had an idea about this and don't think refunding is a bad thing, but the trick is adding risk to it.
The initial escrow should never be paid out partially but both parties could make a new transaction, again with an added risk/insurance deposit.

The only problem with 10% double deposit escrow is a vendor scam, where the seller does not send the goods and risks 10%.
You can play the chicken game, if there is an issue both parties can agree to up the stakes to 100% instead of 10%.

I agree entirely. Also I should mention. In some of my templates I will allow partial payment out. For example employment contracts have a daily weekly or monthly invoice.

And the buy/sell anything template I wanted to have three shipping options. If you choose to send shipping not included in price as an invoice in escrow that is also allowed. Since some packages will be calculated after the fact.

So it depends on the option chosen also kewde I have the option to prevent chat in escrow where chat is allowed by mutual consent.

When chat is allowed, you have cryptographic proof of threats. It's extremely unprofitable.

But 10% might be profitable to vendors. But even there, they need to first ask for more than 10%... Let's say they ask 20%. They then must succeed on extorting that 1/3 the time to break even. Which is not easy.

Regardless we have recommended deposits automatically set unless users request otherwise.

Because thats a great way to enter a thread that's not even about your "coin" and have a flood of other trolls come in at the same time... obviously coordinated. This is why I don't take you are your community serious. You might know what you are doing technically but you have no clue how to deal with other people. Like I said it makes sense, you have the extra time to force hijacking a thread just because you feel like you don't get enough attention. Keep that source close to you, might just leak out.. wouldn't want that its too valuable haha!

If you don't want to discuss find with me :) got code to write.

now who is interrupting? their is a discussion happening now, you want to contribute to it or silently observe like i am ? or do you just want to start more trouble?

Yea im mulling over having the option of having DDE aswell as arbiters and letting the market decide which is best... I can see that its a better process but I'm not sure how many mechants would like putting up deposits.. although giving the option doesn't hurt.

That makes sense to me. For most cases I believe DDE is superior, but there are obvious situations where arbiters are needed. Buying a house, to use an extreme example. There is no way I would be able to put up the money for DDE when buying something that expensive.

In extreme examples like that I would think you would need a licensed professional to assist in the escrow, not just a random escrow junkie. Or trust in a trustless non-centralized system which I think is the ideal way. This is where both parties having 100% of the transaction's worth to lose comes into play as being the superior way imo. 10% doesn't cut it in any scenario imo. Nor do real exploitable persons handling arbitration or escrow like sys has.

I think arbitrated escrow is the best of both worlds as there isn't excessive risk for either party yet it ensures that the process is executed as-agreed by both buyer and seller. There is a reason many/most centralized markets today (from dark to eBay) have human intermediaries to deal with disputes.

There aren't going to be many merchants larger than small-p2p scale who will want to deal with DDE. Merchants would rather trust a single human knowing that they will rarely if ever be used (when shipping goes wrong or someone is trying to rip them off through escrow). In AE the arbiter used is someone mutually trusted between buyer and seller, not sure why they would mutually trust someone easily exploitable but that's certainly not a fault of the system.

Where the arbitration mechanism in AE is rarely used, in DDE its involved in every sale. Large merchants aren't going to want to adapt to having to deal w the side effects of the DDE payment flow (merchant funds being locked while items are in transit, issues when buyers don't release funds if DDE doesn't have a time limit) as a tradeoff for the benefits a decentralized marketplace brings.

I like the discussion happening here its an interesting topic to actually discuss in depth IMO. I certainly think that having DDE in addition to arbitrated escrow doesn't hurt at all, gives the market the ability to choose too.  I also agree that certain larger transaction lend themselves to one method over another. The problem with thinking that DDE is good for small txs and AE is good for larger txs is a bit a matter of perception as one user's large may be another user's small or medium but to me that's another argument for providing both options.

Yea that was kind of what Vitalik's arguments were with using arbiter's instead of DDE, but for smaller merchants it makes sense to use DDE, thinking like ebay type sellers under $1k. I also think a "something-at-stake" is good enough to incentivesize both parties to act faithfully in DDE... so a 10% deposit requirement set by the merchant in the offer may be enough... but should be flexible and not always be 100%.. all in all they may compliment each other and one is not better than the other in all cases.

Yes, there is a reason that many/most markets today have human intermediaries to deal with disputes. And the reason is DDE has not been available before now  ;D

As I said, I believe there are scenarios where arbiters are the best or even only solution. But if you use them, you should think it through a little more imo.
It's obvious that arbiters are a risk. Collusion is a very easy thing to pull of. I can have one username for my arbiter account, and one for my seller account. Then I sell something but never send the item. And as arbiter I rule in favor of myself.
There is no way to completely remove the risk, but you can minimize it by only allowing arbiters who's identity is confirmed. I believe you have to do that anyway, because I for one would never use an anonymous arbiter. Now if the arbiter is known, then he can be sued. And if he can be sued, he will be sued, because there is no way for him to know the truth in the deals he is arbiting. So his fee has to cover potential legal liabilities in addition to his profit. I sincerely doubt a 0.5% fee will be enough to cover that. All this points in the direction of professional arbiters with insurance for liability costs. And fees have to be high enough to make it attractive to be arbiter or you will not be able to scale because of lack of arbiters. You also need fees to cover the work sys has to do to confirm the identity of arbiters.
So in short, going the arbiter route means you have to rely on pro arbiters and accept the work and higher fees that go along with it. And of course those arbiters are also a centralizing element.

Using DDE as the main option would reduce the negs described above. It will also make your investors very happy if the market is popular because it will have an tremendous effect on demand for your coin. Just think this through:
When you post something for sale with DDE you deposit at the time of posting. So how long is the average time before someone buys your item? 5 days? 10 days? Your deposit it locked while you wait for your buyer, so an average of 10 days before someone buys would mean that a daily turnover of $1000 on the market would on average lock up $10k. Then there is the Shipping. Average of 2 days for domestic and 10 days for international? Lets say we have 50/50 domestic/international giving an average of 6 days. Thats another $6k lockup for seller + $6k lockup for buyer. So we are now at an average demand for $22k with an average daily turnover of $1k. Then add a little for delays etc. and you should get approx. $25k
For BitBay with its current marketcap of around $500k that means a $20k daily turnover on our market would require every Bay that's in existence for the deposit alone, and then you need the Bay for payment in addition to that. Obviously price of Bay would have to go up a lot to cover the demand.
$20k daily turnover is of course tremendous given where we are today, but it's only a fraction of the daily turnover at Ebay.

The above happy investor scenario offers it's own challenges of course. An ordinary consumer with a few items on the market should not have a big problem with 100% deposit. But a power seller like we know them from ebay with 3000 items can't do 100% deposit. That's why I find Kewde's game theory interesting. And I believe it should be applied in pooled deposits. So a big seller with good rep would only deposit say 5% or maybe less for each item. But if a deal goes south 100% of the deals value goes over board.

That would never happen as buyer chooses the arbiter. If seller does not agree because arbiter is unknown or not enough rep, he simply refunds or doesnt send item. Your assumptions based on that misinformation are thus incorrect. Buyer collusion is the only risk, and seller has the option before he sends item. It's kind of like what David was saying that a bad merchant who lets DDE timebomb 5x to cover his costs on a 20% requirement for deposit is unlikely to happen. The seller not knowing or trusting an arbiter that happens to be the buyer is pretty low especially as arbiters develop reputation. The arbiters with reputation CAN collude but as soon as they do it once their arbiter reputation goes down the drain. For high value items you would choose to do business with an arbiter that you are sure isn't the buyer or you know personally or something like that.

I have been using ebay for 15 years, but I cant think of anyone I would use as an arbiter there. How am I supposed to find an arbiter I know I can trust? Ask a friend to register as arbiter? There we are on collusion risk again. Arbiter rep is no insurance against collusion. Of course arbiters will be involved in deals that go wrong now and then. So what's to stop them from colluding now and then to make some easy money?

Edit: Buyer can profit from collusion as well. Order an expensive item, claim you didn't receive anything at all or claim seller sent a stone instead, then get your money back

I don't know anyone who hasn't been screwed on EBay. My friend got scammed selling laptops for me. And I knew a person very well who was a pro criminal... Not a close friend, now deceased but an someone I knew and this person showed me their eBay which got flagged for at least 10 grand. Their paypal also flaggged. For most likely empty boxes etc. This person was the one who told me about empty box scam.

Plus, you are assuming that a trusted arbiter won't enter into lots of deals at once before stealing. The theft can be humongous. Example, trusted arbiter builds reputation and goes in as buyer choosing himself in 100 deals. Before stealing one they enter into multiple deals.

Thus he takes potentially 20-100 bitcoins for FREE.

And what about high ticket items?? I disagree so profoundly with this contrived idea that escrow makes more sense with more money on the line!! The reverse is true. If sys has a seller for 1000 btc a scammer would be absolutely delighted to gobble that up instantly in a scam.

And escrow scams in real estate happen in tunes of BILLIONS. I remember very well when the HUD got ripped off and when real estate melt down happened. I have a real estate license and remember all of the escrows that disappeared with millions and saw zero jail time.

And DDE does work in many high value transactions because deposits don't need to be 100% AND you can microtrade. You can't microtrade a house but in some cases you can microtrade equity. Or of course barter.A 20K deposit should be enough for a 100K House. Sign away title, they have to release funds or lose an extra 20k. A simple deed can be recorded, no escrow, no agents and massive savings!

Plus houses can be notarized on the blockchain which in that case it does work extremely well. Once courts legally accept blockchain for record of title. Also for houses you can still do it full DDE. For example if I bought a house for 50k and I've got 200k I would not mind putting 50k deposit to avoid escrow fees, deceptions and all shenanigans. It saves me thousands and gives me peace of mind.


And everyone here knows this is true when I say courts and judges are almost always wrong and forced to guess.

Escrow has never worked in society. It's societies problem.

A comment above I read says in crypto people use escrow successfuly on dark markets. Oh my god that is so untrue it's staggering. Like a hundred times over not true. The darknet is swamped with Bitcoin scams. It's almost a joke. Such a joke that it's easier to just send btc direct with faith that you hopefully won't get scammed.

Dont you know your history??

Silk Road 300 million stolen at least!
Sheep Marketplace 100 million.

And I won't even mention exchange hacks

So much for arbiters!!

Guess how much has been stolen in Halo or Bitbay?
ZERO

So that's Bitcoins history. About 50% of all Bitcoins are owned by theives. Arbitration is insane in anonymous markets. And personally most hackers love doing fake profiles, social engineering. So they would have no problem making 20 fake arbiter profiles with stolen IDs and whatever else needed to confirm identity. Plus they got paid to arbitrate so it's a win win!!



But people keep forgetting an arbitor does not know who is telling the truth!!!

You cannot stop sellers from sending empty boxes or buyers from returning empty boxes or sellers lying about receiving empty boxes.

If someone kills you there are only two people that know this. The victim and assailant! Nobody else knows, can know or could ever guess.

When you add the anomynoty layer, this threat is heavily exaggerated.

And if you are using arbiters and you are forcing arbiters to reveal their identity then why not use eBay??

How can you possibly convince a consumer to use the markets that force put transparency of arbiters. So it's not anonymous anymore meaning it's definitely not a darknet market meaning it is limited to eBay style sales. So... Yeah use eBay then. Instead of volatile crypto cash.

In the case of Bitbay DDE and really all smart contracts and deposit models that it enables are a virtue, a selling point. An advantage.

Sorry if my convictions come off so strong but I will fight this till the cows come home. I feel like it's just slaves defending their cages(no offense but cognitive dissonance is a thing). And so many people fight DDE almost irrationally. Saying things like "but society has always used those really friendly middlemen who take our money and keep it safe for us. The cage is painted gold and has glitter on it. We like the cage because it's all we know and most of all we fear change." And that cage is made of judges, courts, escrows, middle men and senselss legal obfuscation.

Also Bitbay with its frozen asset class might have more potential for real estate deals since frozen coins could be possibly used as a discount loan or collateral.

This is assuming a user doesn't have the cash to buy a 50k home but does have lots of frozen coins to give at a discount.

Also a long time ago usury was considered  a SIN. Because to charge interest on money that is lent, is evil because not only is it literally taking advantage if the poor but it artificially raises prices. Like in the case of real estate appraisal that bloats up prices of homes into the millions so consumers never even own their home and are debt slaves to banks.

End that system. Just stop it. Stop it by only buying homes you can afford. That's why I've taken this philosophy so seriously that I live in a trailer bought with cash until I can afford a home in cash. In other words... Live by that philosophy, not only preach it.

No loans no greedy bankers to extort from us perpetually.

If people used DDE for real estate purchase then home prices would have to drop to meet actual values instead of puffed up greedy banker value.

This is a powerful marketing tool

It would be if it were at all accurate but unfortunately its not. Will reply to thoughts on AE v DDE soon a I have a chance to properly read and type up a reply :)

I think SYS could also be a bit more accurate on their definition of a DECENTRALIZED marketplace..
As of now, it's filled with centralized features:
- centralized hosting of images
- centralized bitcoin TX verification
- anything else you want to add to the list?

You claim that you support Tor for the connections, but if you're using centralized images you are vulnerable to IP snatching.

http://www.ipnow.org/images/1/FFFF88/000000/newmyinfo.jpg
^Won't show anything because of bitcointalk image proxy :)

Are those requests routed through the Tor network too?
I could basically harvest the IP addresses of everyone that uses the marketplace..

I highly advice you to put disclaimers of the potential vulnerabilities such as IP leakage in your main thread, you owe it to the users of your platform.

--

On a different note, how does BitBay handle its images?
What are the centralized components of BitBay?

Can't speak to BitBay stuff but none of these are mandatory components of the SYS marketplace and are all optional. Additionally image hosting isn't centralized, its technically scattered across whatever various servers users decide to hose their images on, SYS just has a link to this.

Not sure I follow you're "I could basically harvest the IP addresses of everyone that uses the marketplace." i think you're referring to if you stand up an offer, w/image and then monitor requests on the server side? First off you'd only get information on people viewing THAT item. Secondly viewing items isn't illegal, and you'd have no way of correlating an IP with a purchase. Additionally if the user is using TOR you'd have a worthless IP and in the end be no closer to unmasking a user than where you started.

---


The amounts your identifying here are NOT all from arbitration funds as you make it seem. The amounts stolen are a combination of funds that may have been in arbitrated escrow, buyer funds, and seller funds because the platform as a whole is centralized. Using this as some argument against AE is weak imo. DDE wouldn't have done anything to help these situations because the CENTRALIZED nature of the platforms- the funds would have still been made off with.

Additionally building rep and then buying a bunch and acting as arbiter just to steal the funds (exit scam...) wouldn't get very far and again, isn't at all a fault of the system. Yes, humans can be dirtbags but that doesn't mean the answer is charging everyone double (or 10%+ or whatever) and then it somehow solves everything. You're kinda throwing the baby out with the bathwater just because of a few bad actors. And yes eBay/Paypal is horrid and that's why we build things like decentralized offerings to replace them entirely :)

Halo had DDE before BitBay if my history is correct- i haven't seem any huge transformational change brought about by its introduction nor have I seen merchants clamoring for it because they are so tired of AE and bad actors screwing the over. Bad actors seem to be the exception not the rule in most networks but you seem to view them as the rule, thus AE as a whole must go.

Not sure I understand your point about transparent arbiters... there is no requirement for transparency in terms of identity disclosure as you're suggesting only that the arbiter is mutually trusted between buyer and seller.

If you've worked with real word merchants you'd hear the same issues I've raised here in terms of DDE and the payment flow being something that a majority of large scale merchants just aren't going to deal with. Having funds locked up will not only be a problem for them but I can also see it causing market volatility if large portions of the supply are "locked" at any one time which seems inevitable at scale? I do think there is value in making DDE more flexible both in terms of timeout and in terms of deposit % amount, not sure exactly how BitBay implements these facets of the design but the more flexibility the better.


I'm just trying to have a meaningful discussion which is rare on BCT in my experience :) I never said that DDE was a lost cause or worthless I merely said that there are benefits to both and there is value in providing both options to users so as to give them choices. From a development perspective neither DDE or AE is difficult to implement, forgoing one for the other purely as a matter of principle is shortchanging users imo. In Syscoin yeah we started with AE because that's what the market knows and uses and it works despite some pitfalls (bad actors), adding a DDE option is highly likely. Sounds like BitBay isn't very open to providing users this type of option.

Seller doesn't have to send item to buyer if he's an arbiter.. thus he needs to have a reputation as a buyer only.. chances are once he's discovered for being bad he will be flagged and he won't get 100 items for free. The seller would check before he ships. There needs to be technology that can track and determine shipment of a parcel based on a txid.. once that happens with someone like ups etc then the problem of knowing what was shipped also gets fixed

Syscoin is still trustless the gui is trustful for convenience sake simply letting users check that the btc txid exists and pays right. You still need to have your btc wallet.. it certainly doesn't depend on it in consensus.. now that would be trustful.

Also you don't have to host your own images.. I think you need to try out the client first before making such weak assumptions. There is no "IP snatching" unless you host your own images and are selling illegal stuff which would be stupid

There's still be the possibility of someone shipping empty boxed and such to try to scam people but again this falls into the bad actor /exception category. Dzimbeck is describing an exit scam scenario where an arbiter who has built up trust over time buys + arbitrates a number of sales concurrently, and makes off with the funds, which would destroy their reputation. This (exit scam) can be avoided by trusting the right people as arbiters. Since there aren't arbiters at all in DDE there isn't really a comparable DDE scenario to exit scam.

---

If we play out the empty box scam in DDE I believe the funds are burned because buyer would never release? Merchant says i shipped the item, buyer says no you shipped an empty box, and there really is no further for resolution is that accurate? If the merchant actually shipped the item and the buyer is lying my understanding is that they'd need to work it out between themselves before the expiry time or all of their funds related to the transaction are lost. And the threat of this is supposed to motivate both parties to stay honest. If the amount is inconsequential to the buyer though the merchant is out their deposit + the item (assuming they shipped the real thing).

in AE empty box scam goes up to arbiter for deciding who is lying. Far from infallible, but the mutual trust from both buyer and seller in the arbiter means they're consenting to accept whatever the arbiter's decision may be based on information provided to them.

Yea that's what I'm saying there needs to be new tech that solves that problem and integrate with a.marketplace blockchain. If we seperate concerns we can tackle problems over time properly because we can't solve all of the problems in one go.. we need the world to adapt to solve some problems.

A stopgap solution can be shipper acting as an authority and approving what is being shipped to the description of the offer (we would need to integrate with the shipping company) that way if it's an empty box the shipper has failed his authoritative task. Because it's subjective you need someone or something capable of understanding and deciding right or wrong.. can't be done objectively currently regardless of escrow option. While dde may work better for smaller things because buyer can extend timeout it still won't work for bigger transactions.. so for smaller things like parcels dde might help solve issues although complicating user experience with more options it might be justified.

Additionally image hosting isn't centralized, its technically scattered across whatever various servers users decide to hose their images on, SYS just has a link to this
I get what you're aiming at but in reality only a few major image hosts will be used.

Yes I was indeed referring to that. There are ways of correlating IPs to purchases, it's not a difficult attack.

First you use the image attack I proposed above, you have an IP address. You connect to the node if it's a clearnet IP and flood the address list with huge amounts of non existant nodes +  online malicious nodes that are always online. You can use the address list as a "cookie" to detect if a user pops up again (because their list is filled with the fake non-existant nodes), the cookie attack even works the best over Tor.

Basically you force the node to only connect to computer you operate.

The attack is described here, I won't go into the details:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1410.6079.pdf

Another good read on possible attacks is:
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1510/1510.07782.pdf

If the node you're trying to attack is only connected to your malicious nodes, you know exactly what transactions go in and out. So if the user does a new transaction, the attacker will know.

you'd have no way of correlating an IP with a purchase.
So you claim, but it certainly is.

The bitcoin protocol is unencrypted, so when you put your transactions in the blockchain it is vulnerable to the attack I've mentioned above.

The papers are not recent so Bitcoin or SYS may have improved on these points.

Can someone, that is running SYS over tor make a listing with the following image and test that the image is grabbed through the proxy?
http://www.ipnow.org/images/1/FFFF88/000000/newmyinfo.jpg

What I've learned is that Qt doesn't magically route everything through Tor, the built in ProxyManagers aren't the greatest. You should double check it, I recommend it.

Does SYS have trusted onion nodes online at this very moment?

 

You can connect over TOR or anything else to upload that image to some service and use that link... it would have no connection to the user who first relayed the offer transaction to the network that is then accepted. The image is viewed by the client. When accepted the buyer accepts an offer and relays that transaction. The only time the merchant's IP is at risk is when creating an offer.. and he would be using TOR if he really cares about personal security. Also TOR will be improved upon in the future, the developer is still active.

Only Onion node i know that is running is mmpool. I have it set in the code so if your TOR client is running you should connect to him.

Also you can link general purpose images that are hosted by someone else if you think that the govt can grab the IP of the computer who sent the image to the host and then try to decipher that it is the person who is selling that offer... all of this is really far fetched and is borderline paranoia... in the end TOR can evolve too and solve any problems you are thinking of.

You are correct. In empty box scam, both victim and assailant know the truth and so it falls on them to punish each other or sort out their differences... Aka claim postal insurance.

Dadon said the same loss would have happened in silk road with DDE????

That is the most ridiculous thing. Dadon you know that is not true.

There is no escrow in 2 of 2!!! It's peer to peer. What on earth are you thinking?

If Mt gox silk road sheep market used DDE then 50% of Bitcoins would not be in the hands of thieves.

Let me repeat that Mt gox stole almost a billion dollars of btc!

Mt Gox stole wires as well which if Karpeles did DDE for wires (which is the only way in the world to do trustless wire) then nobody would lose a wire

In DDE each peer holds their key so unless the government raids a million houses to steal each key hidden in an image I think not.


Also Dadon you don't seem to realize the exit scam can also happen to buyers.

True buyer chooses escrow agent(much better than OB) but seller can be managing 50 different escrow agents and get lucky enough to be paired with himself and 2 of 3 he keeps the coins.

And the rest of my statement stands when hight ticket AE would be many magnitudes more dangerous


Also the flexibility of DDE has been covered already, there is custom deposits, guarantor contracts etc

You guys mentioned how merchants can't lock up so much but they don't! They only lock up what their volume is. If you do 1000 dollars a week in volume then you may have 1000 locked up. But if you do 1k a week, you definitely should have funds for deposit.

Merchants pay insurance, escrow fees, fight arbiters on import fees, the list goes on. In fact if all the world's merchants knew Bay existed and it charges zero fees of course many people would use it.

The problem is lack of education and lack of marketing.

And lastly true merchants don't clammor for it but they should. This is more of an ideal change for society, eliminating courts entirely. As the entire legal system forms the cage of enslavement and eliminating biased judges is the way out.

Also DDE is the first agreement in history not backed by a gun. Behind every lawyer is a gun. So the world's first peaceful contract.

Also like Sid said shipping confirmation on blockchain is a very very bad idea. Since I can weight the box down with rocks and trick the blockchain with a valid shipping with correct weight. Free anonymous crypto money!

And just because this is the "exception" as in not everyone is a theif doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Just last week someone stole my ladder and my hoses and septic lines out the back of my truck. Who would want those septic lines? I don't know maybe a crackhead. But I was pissed. And I have things stolen from me all the time. Even lost many btc on exchange hacks.

It's a fun debate but if you don't see it by now then I can't state it more clearly. It's all fun and games to defend your project. But I'm not talking about Bitbay or Halo here... I'm stating why I worked on this in the first place which was to inject a new idea into society. It doesn't surprise me in the least that people fear DDE irrationally. People will fight their own freedom tooth and nail.

It's not my goal to change people's minds or hearts. The goal is to clearly express the idea and make sure it survives and hopefully convince Sid to add it to his system.

You didn't understand what I wrote or you just didn't bother answering it properly.
I'm worried about noob users that connect to the market with or without tor and view an offer (made by the attackers).

If you're not handling Tor properly you're actually increasing the risk to your system.
You're opening your users to attacks that you may disregard as improbable or paranoid but it is a reality.

First read the papers I have shown you.
They will give you a better idea about the fingerprinting attack through the cookies.

Also using centralized image hosts, you're still not mitigating the risks properly. EXIF data is not deleted on all image hosts, which potentially reveals GPS coordinates, camera details, and all the other nice little details you wouldn't want others to know.
http://www.exiv2.org/sample.html

Are the messages for ever stored in the blockchain and/or are they prunable?

Sid how can you say it doesn't work for bigger transactions that's utter bullshit(if you dont mind me saying). I just spent two very long comments explaining that it does. Even gave really high ticket examples.

It's AE that doesn't work for either. More money on the line doesn't make AE safer where is the logic in that?

And you really want shipping companies inspecting every package? Too much intervention, big brother, extra cost, not needed in DDE at all.

Why are we comparing escrow to escrow-less transactions when there obviously is no comparison. I'm sorry but I can say more than I've already said it would be redundant. Fun to chat but not when my points aren't being completely listened to.


By the way we do use pastebins for images in Halo. But it's optional and I will add a Tor option for outbound web requests. If you send without pastebin it's a lot of POW, Halo sends by POW of pastebin is down. Perhaps if I move Bitmessage to locktimes POL instead of POW then I could encourage less paste bin. In private email contracts no pastebin is used. Image is sent by email.

You and I both know this 50% number is something you pulled out of thin air, you have no way to say concretely it was 50%, 10% or 90% that were in arbitrated escrow.

Who is dadon? Lets say DDE was in play on Silk Road. JUST DDE. No decentralized marketplace- as I included in my first statement. So the funds are locked until the buyer confirms merchant has done their part, and then they are released.... but still held on a central server until the merchant transfers them to their personal wallet, away from the "marketplace" wallet. If the operators up and runs, funds are still gone, DDE in and of itself doesn't help.

DDE only helps in scenarios where its accompanied by the decentralized marketplace. If both are in use yeah there is some mitigation but the decentralized marketplace itself is more a mitigating factor rather than DDE (or AE). Yes as you've argued AE+Decentralized can be exploited if people are foolish enough to trust the wrong person. In dark markets there aren't options, in eBay there aren't options re: who is arbiter, in Syscoin there are. DDE+Decentralized has its own downsides I've already outlined several times. Forcing users to use one or the other simply because its your opinion is shortchanging users.

As I said we're going to give users options on the Syscoin platform, which I think is better than no options (DDE only. AE only.)

Syscoin by a MILE.

Bitbay done like dinner since the start. Crap.

Though SYS is still manipulation city and shady (except for Dano)

Yes.

Yea the clients (buyers) IP addresses can be found if they click these links unless using TOR and using it properly... TOR it works OOTB, I'm putting up trusted onion nodes as people start to join in., the beauty of being able to keep  up to the core is to leverage the new btc core features.. something you have backed yourself in the corner with and David aswell because Blackcoin is not really supported much anymore (I tried to do something as simple as do the Azure scripts for BLK and no-one from the community stepped up to even help, was asking on their IRC for days)... with POS its harder to keep up to date with btc core. Original POS code was pretty shitty to say the least there's no way a person can re-port bitcoin to major releases without a full days work with headaches.

Things that are clearly illegal we will be filtering it out for regular users through a "safe-search" feature. Those images won't show up for clients to click on anyway. We do have a EULA in our client, and its not our job to tell people that they will be tracked if they sell something illegal, we don't condone it. It's pretty probable that someone will de-anonymize SDC to make an example out of one person who's pushing the boundaries of what the government cares about. There goes the project. We are focused on real goods for real people and darknet stuff is possible but not condoned, its up to the user's acting in such activity to act in a way that preserves their anonymity.

Yeah porting to the latest code base is always a painful job.
We are excited about the latest development of Blackcoin, they are porting it to 0.11 which already quite the upgrade :)

Anyways I'm out, I've discussed my concerns.

On you go ol' chaps!

we are already on 0.12.1... it takes months to do the port? Anyways that's a big drawback in my opinion.. I spent alot of time writing unit tests for sys services for this very reason.

Are you planning to set up a Website so that others can place bets like you're doing?

I'm very serious about this question. You've just tapped into a potentially huge use case for Bitbay: binary options in a more-or-less trustless environment.

There is NO CENTRAL SERVER in DDE. Please i beg you stop just stop arguing about things you don't know about.

There is no "marketplace wallet" what are you talking about? Each peer holds one key to a joint account. Go read my whitepaper from 2 years ago

I've been working on this software for almost 3 years well before Ethereum was conceived. If you argue learn first, don't just talk for the sake of it.

DDE keys and all info is held by only the two peers involved arranged by email or Bitmessage. No blockchain is involved. You can't touch those deals. I don't care if you are the Internet King or nsa. Just stop.

Of course DDE would have prevented all the loss.

And I didn't pull the 50% number from thin air. Yes it's an estimate, it might be 30%. Don't make mountains out of molehills.

Add up SR, Sheep, Mt Gox, Cryptsy, BTER, Mintpal thefts and you can see for yourself.

I've had enough of this debate. Have fun caring more about be contrary.

I bet if I asked you to argue in favor of DDE over AE you could. You are only defending nothing.

With no interest in the truth.


The two things should never be compared. There is no third party in DDE what is so hard to understand here?

It's clearly superior, comparing it with escrow agents is a joke. Nobody here has denied SR theft, Mt Gox theft, all third party theft.

Nobody here has denied empty box scam

Nobody here gas denied 2 of 3 collusion scam.

And 2 of 2 escrow has none of those drawbacks other than the fact that merchants put a deposit up. Cry me a river. Jeeeez.

Also I've got so many safe guards in Halo like autobackup, filtering chat in escrow, so many beautiful details that you guys don't know because anyone arguing against it have not even bothered to test the software.

Also one last thing, I don't give the option of AE because of all the reasons mentioned. Just the say way I don't encourage any system that is broken by design.

I don't vote, don't want to live on grid, will not support military and generally will never support systems that fail us all.

Lastly escrow is a head ache. It's an entire extra layer. I've got other things to code. I sympathize with the idea but honestly I didn't work myself sick to change society just to encourage the same system I'm trying to replace.

That makes no sense. Escrow is limiting, DDE is not. As DDE can be used in barter, smart contracts, employment etc

Why would we offer both if one is clearly better? Why should users pay escrow fees, deal with potential loss. If they want that I recommend eBay.

I'm not familiar with the binary options market. How fast does a trading platform need to be for it to work there?

Essentially, binary "options" are bets on a future market price. For example, "Will Gold Be US$1275 or above on May 21 at 1500 GMT?" If it is, then the "Yes" wins; if not, the "No" wins.

Speed of the trading platform wouldn't be an issue because the bet would have to be closed off some time before the deadline, else it's too easy for one side to win.

Well, then I guess that is a perfect use case for BitBay. It is as you have seen already possible to do today. However, we have two things on roadmap that can improve it a lot.
1. API. With that in place it's easy to build web based solutions.
2. Phyton contracts. You will be able to write your own p2p phyton contracts automating the whole process. You could use inputs from markets to autoclose etc.

Glad someone else sees the potential as well. Yeah, this is just the beginning! DDE could give a whole new outlook to binary options trading. It's got a bad track record plagued with fraud and scams.
Yet this will work with almost anything investors currently trade in.
The best part about it is that it's flexible. I understand the concept to want it integrated into a website, yet that would have to be backed by servers; I have no problem with that. Yet with the client and it's built-in IRC chat, there always a peer2peer alternative that can't be shut down. As such a community grows it would link up traders with the ability to set-up private trade contracts delivered directly to their counterparty's client via their bitbay address, bitmessage address, or email address.

So for example if you wish to be private, you could lurk the irc chat box. If someone posts they want to short gold, yet you think it's going to go up, you could send that person your contract direct and he'd have the ability to counteroffer (if you give him that option) or just deny you all together; he might not like your reputation for that matter, or is waiting for a better deal to show up.

The best part about it is:
1) There's no middleman commission fee to deal with. With BitBay's antidust fee and automated adjustable tx fee for miners, a 10,000 coin DDE contract and if for example BitBay was post peg and worth 1 cent, you'd have to pay a total fee to the miners of .000405 Bays or .0000041 cents to post.

2) The more DDE is used by merchants and investors, the more coins are locked in escrow. If investors jumped on board with this, the hardest part we'd have with the decentralized peg is trying to stabilize the price from going up too high too fast because of the lack of liquid coins on the market!

And with my example EURUSD contract bet above. I have the ability to create a 100% guaranteed stop loss trigger.
No brokerage house can do that!

Trust me! It didn't happen in this example!
https://i.imgur.com/fna1mgK.png

And omg that chart ha-ha wow.

Yeah binary options similar to barter in style.

Deposits serve as insurance in a sense disincentive. It should exceed the value of the bet by double since sore losers won't wanna pay out.

Like munti said this is the perfect use case for Python contracts so the option is automated.

Interesting! Btw, I used to be a goldbug...

Gold is great but the supply is artificially limited. Govt has 99.99999%. Of the gold.

Best that people find new gold or invest in food and water

Shadow fights every other project they see, only shows they have the time and nothing going on

They just keep throwing dirt to any other project just to try get some pr and attention.

https://i.imgur.com/6rCZEPI.png

I dont use centralized servers for anything how many times do i need to repeat that? I only use one for images fpaste which is optional.

So that is total fud. (if its not then explain where ip leaks in BitBay)

I was referencing to the images being hosted on centralized servers which leaks the ip addesses of visitors to an offer.
All that data is collected and stored and thus an infringement on privacy in my opinion.

I evaluate other systems on the standards we've set for designing ours. We might be paranoid in that field, but it's a healthy one.

sickandtired is one of those mentally ill fudsters, trying to start fires where there aren't any to be found.

Can you explain how you would do it? So first you would mandate a service like imgur to give up the IP's of visitors going to some image... ok so you got a visitors IP... now how would you relate that to some person who accepts an offer? What if that person uses another computer at another time to accept the offer that doesnt visit the image URL? So you have an IP, you are going to track this person who may be sitting in a public setting say Starbucks to do business? the messages are still encrypted and can point to a meeting place or a destination for cargo that an eavesdropper can't read.

Like I said its very far fetched... and something you should not be worrying about at this point. That's assuming no TOR... and with TOR improving in the future it makes it even more far fetched... bottom line is.. if you are doing something frisky and your not supposed to, use a public computer! why would you use your personal computer at home for doing such a thing anyway? The key is to send encrypted syscoin messages for actual instructions.

In software there is a standard golden rule called "seperation of concerns" and by imposing privacy measures which are aggegrated and not needed for 99% of the use-cases you are not only complicating things where they don't need to be but are making things less efficient and more prone to vulnerabilities to your system as a result because of more moving parts. SDC has already been hacked once, maybe it will be hacked again. Once you claim your 100% anon, it just takes one example to turn the whole project on its head and for what 1% of the use-case? Doesn't make sense.  I already know what you are thinking now, and like I said to you before we have clearly different goals. Your goal is to become the defacto ANON decentralized marketplace, and ours is to become the defacto decentralized marketplace... you are targeting a subset of users while we are leveraging blockchain technology to reach out to an exponentially larger audience.

So first you would mandate a service like imgur to give up the IP's of visitors going to some image
LOL, you're seriously thinking that a mandate is needed to get that information? Quite a few agencies around the world are participating in mass surveillance, they collect EVERYTHING.

now how would you relate that to some person who accepts an offer?
You would look up the node in the syscoin network and hijack its peer list by sending out a bunch of IPs ran by malicious nodes.
Anything that goes in and out of that node, you know it. Filter out the escrow transactions and link it to the offer.

you are going to track this person who may be sitting in a public setting say Starbucks to do business?
Well if he uses his own computer the above mentioned attack would persist on his system unless he deletes the peer.dat file.
The only way to prevent it is by using a new computer, and are you REALLY going to download the whole sys blockchain on a public computer? Are you really thinking any sane person would do that?


why would you use your personal computer at home for doing such a thing anyway?
Because people are lazy, stupid or tricked by false promises that sys protects their privacy.

I agree, the attack is far fetched and the chances that at this very moment anyone caring about transactions happening on sys is close to 0.
But some governments collect everything and the blockchain does that for you too. Makes it easy for correlating things, sys is doing mass surveillance a pleasure by timestamping and authenticating everything so neatly ;)

There are other attacks that I have in the back of my mind, but I have given you enough of my time and advice. You should start paying me for this to be honest!

imposing privacy measures which are aggegrated and not needed for 99% of the use-cases you are not only complicating things
A human without privacy is a powerless entity. The world is full of sheep putting every piece of their life on facebook, basically doing the things spies used to do 30 years ago.
History has worked so well for us because we as the people had privacy and thus power to change things. Now we're trusting the internet with our data like there is no harm to it, even with the recent snowden leaks.

We had a bug in our key image, which is a pretty important part in ring signatures. That has been fixed, the bug bounty program was there for a reason, to motivate researchers to attack our system to help us harden it. We're not going to act like we didn't expect things like this to happen. I have reviewed the ring signature cryptography and it is now fully compliant with the scheme proposed by Adam Back. I'm fairly confident that in terms of cryptography it is secure to modern standards.

We have our bugs and flaws, just like any open source project. If you think sys is free of those then you're being arrogant. I don't see sys having a bug bountry program in place? There is nobody on the world inspecting your code.

Don't forget, your project is still young and fragile. It only takes one clone and a ton of marketing money to destroy sys at once.

borderline paranoia and not worth my time to worry about such things currently. If market demands it, the technology will be created and it will happen. You are trying to create demand by telling people they care, when its 1% of the people that care. I get it, your aiming for network affect through a niche market within a niche market.. but I'm not aiming so small. The ringsig stuff makes syncing slower, instead i'm allowing people who care to use external tools that are enabled/disabled instead of making it mandatory on every user even if they don't care.. its like saying I know whats best for you let me do it anyway and we know that is a bad design, at least I know it is. Based on Anonymint's observation and I would have to say he has to be one of the better guys around here when it comes to privacy the only way to have true anonymity is through micro-transactions, because none of these algorithms are truly anonymous and push-comes-to-shove will be comprised... pretty much reinforcing the reason i'm not catering to 1%.

So you would get an IP for someone who clicked a link and then spam his node to see if he's running syscoin (you have to hope hes on a default port which is probably isn't) and then basically watch for a relay message that is for an offeraccept of the item in question... that way you can track the BUYER.. you can't get the seller. So you solve only half the problem and you can't prove that the person isn't just sending coins and not getting delivery because that happens outside the system and communication done through encrypted messages. I still find it very unlikely any agency will be able to find out who's who to track these people to their location. Those that will conduct business in this way have to take simple measures to make it increasingly difficult to track....

We actually had a bug bounty program i think it was $5k (obviously wasn't broken) and we also got a code review done by Bryce Weiner who said "it looks very awesome" with some semantics like variable naming as things to update. Sebastien Schepis who created the initial design for Syscoin also reviewed the code and thinks it looks great. Saying nobody in the world is inspecting your code is arrogant of yourself especially coming from someone who keeps things private and closed source lol! I'm developing in the open and im sure there are other people reading it especially since my commits are logged in slack every time I push. The design was reviewed by Vitalik Buterin who I am in contact with regularily.. actually hes the one who pushed me for AE instead of DDE and we are on the same wave-length... I may do DDE still for 2.1 depends on timeline.

Again Syscoin is not condoning darkmarkets and not saying your IP is private just like Bitcoin is not saying that... we provide a tool built-in called TOR and if you know how to use it you can do your best to hold your anonymity but we don't guarantee it... something you are claiming with your technology that has been broken already. It's a problem i'm not willing to take on to target 1% of the audience especially because you need a full on cryptographer to really understand what's happening on the lowest level, I think to be taken seriously as anon you will need to have one or a team of actually cryptographers who know what they are doing instead of copying from other projects. Again its a business decision that doesn't make much sense currently.

You can correlate all you want, the core benefit of a decentralized marketplace is being able to open your trade to  a wider audience with little to no fees and not have to worry about backups and/or hosting of that data. A subset of users will care about evading taxes and darknet offers but when technology exists that lets you plug in to bitcoin to do that (a better TOR) then we will easily migrate it over to Syscoin because of the way I developed Syscoin 2 keeping portability in mind.

Cloning is encouraged! take a look at the unit tests and you can extend functionality pretty easily... I tend not to think like you because I'm open source while your stuff is not... you're scared of a "first-to-market" hit while I know that if someone clones it will benefit Syscoin. Any marketing they do will indirectly benefit marketcap for Sys.

I never said Sys is free of bugs.. take a look at the open issues theres tons... but I am not a cryptographer so I don't have to worry about bugs in the core related to cryptography. I know if I just copied that stuff I won't be able to support it or make it flexible enough for what I wanted to do in Sys. You do have to wrry about these things.. its your core goal. So your project requires intensive cryptographic knowledge and anyone not trained formally in the area will i'm afraid be developing something that will most likely be compromised (it already has). Sure it's been fixed, but how can we be sure it won't break again (coming from someone who doesn't know or doesn't care about anon as much as you?). You can't. It's one less thing to worry about for me.. when the time to care for it arrives, I will look for things already developed like Tor to solve the problem.

For me, I only have to worry about the layer above which is crypto agnostic for the most part but blockchain oriented, so I gotta pay attention to security but in the mindset of not allowing services to be used in an unintentional manner ie: taking money from an offer that's not yours, or sending a message to an alias impersonating someone else. This is the value add im bringing to the blockchain world and I can say I'm trained to do such work because its not specialized in a field I do not know. Sure you can learn it, but you can only learn so much from the internet unless your IQ is 160 like Vitalik.

I'm going to stand by my convictions that to be anonymous you need mesh networks. Using a custom dish to get nearby wifi would certainly help.

It's already clear that with surveillance peoples first response is to hide. Personally I think people should fight back. We have been reduced to a nation of cowards. People should start doing mesh and forgoing the ridiculous IP protocol. Or maybe millions should storm the Whitehouse haha

By the way all Cisco routers have back doors. And unless you are on a super secure Linux.

And there is no guarantee that the hardware isn't designed with back doors making Linux unsafe. Paranoia has no limits therefore perhaps people should defiantly resist.

@dzimbeck

Thank you for continuing your work in this crypto cesspool of bullshit.

It takes a strong man to stand up to all the crap that was thrown your way and it would have been easy for you to give up and walk away, but you didn't.  I really hope your work pays off for you one day because you deserve it.  Good luck.   :)

Thanks that means a lot.

Its a lot of work but in the end it could very well be worth it.

Syscoin vs Bitbay, SYS winz :)

The battle has not even begun yet.

time to get some cheap Syscoins @Poloniex :)

your sys getting cheaper day by day hope you did not buy lot though,ouchh.

Actually if you cared to pay attention to details its up over 25% from when he posted that.

Thanks for the discussion. glad to know about it.

To me it looks like BitBay is ahead by miles, but maybe you know something I don't?

http://s20.postimg.org/r9t8x5qfx/Bay_sys2.png

Well I've got to admit it's been an interesting few days.

Sucks what has happened with ether because it set back crypto as a whole; might only be a few days, but none the less, it's a set back. Yet at the same time I can't feel sorry for them, the DAO was created straight out of greed because they blew through millions of dollars in crowdfunding in a matter of a few months and then bitched about how they needed more funds to complete the project.
Of course investors could care less about giving more funding, so they took matters in their own hands and created this half ass DAO that they could have cared less about making it right before releasing it.

The greed will probably kill ether as well because they just don't have the funding to continue their 1 million a month salary overhead - unless of course they were shorting during the time of the attack.

That being said, it sucks to see ether throw a massive taint on smart contracts.

So the race is on for someone to take the lead in smart contract innovation.

I'm happy to be invested in Bay at the moment because I see David releasing a finished product ahead of competition. Recently I've been in some interesting convo's about how to create a DAO type system just with the use of the existing Double Deposit Escrow. I can't talk about that here, but I assure you it won't be hackable.

After release I'll probably be using some of my earning to invest in other smart contract coins as well, like Shadow, because I know my initial investment with Bay will be stabilized with the rolling peg technology; no need to worry about pump and dump FOMO.

I think it would be advantageous to sys to follow suit. However, since they are based on storing everything on the blockchain, I'd recommend implementing a smart contract system that is somehow independent of the blockchain.

Interesting times, and good luck all!

Hope BTC hits 2500$ in the next 2 weeks!

Cheers!

We've already discussed how this graphic is pretty inaccurate, a few pages back. With the Syscoin 2.1 release is becomes even more inaccurate.

Hardly matters. Both are good. Both undervalued, but bitbay is stupidly undervalued. Get some of both but obviously returns are going to be way more on bitbay at this point. If similar in price I still load up 60 40 in favour of bitbay anyway. Yes the info graphic may be a little generous to bitbay in some ways but still it is at least equal to sys if not better and the price is way way undervalued. Both developers seem good guys.

Once the BitBay client is set up to stake.

We can then also remind the exchanges that they could essentially create futures contracts.
So lets say a coin holder deposits his Bays onto an exchange like bittrex or c-cex (screw the thieves @ bter).
The exchange could then create different options for the trader to hold coins.
They could ask that the investor to lock their Bays in the exchange for: 1 week, 2 week, 1 month, 2 month, etc.
These coins would be locked in their possession for the allotted time frame. The exchange would have 2 keys protecting the accounts.
These locked coins would be merged into a larger groups of coins. The coin holders would gain incentives with these options because the grouped coins would have more stake reward potential.
They could post these 'futures' contracts on their websites. Traders could tally the info thus creating speculation on price swings upon contracts fulfilling. The speculation would come from the option given to contract holders to either renew the contract or close out and recover stake reward.
This speculation would cause investors to gamble on price during times of contract renewals. They might try to sell off before the 1 month contracts reach fulfillment thinking that the contract holders will be closing out and thus increasing liquidation on the market. Yet that's where the trickery comes into play. If the contract holders don't close out and renew instead, then speculators just sold at a potential loss and not a premium! The exchanges could also give contract holder renewals incentives. For example, if John enters a 1 month contract, upon fulfillment, he renews and earns an extra .5% earnings on the stake reward total. If he renews again add more, etc.

I know this influences people to leave their coins on a middleman exchange, yet with multisig technology. There should be a way to do this with minimal risk

Thoughts?  

looking forward to the new wallet!

Is bitbay growing in users yet? Last time I checked it was small project?

It's growing slowly. But more important we are getting the right users. If you look at our thread you will see senior and hero members are over represented. People with experience, contacts, and often also money. They know it takes time to develop something unique. When BitBay is ready to roll out the big guns, we have exactly the userbase we need to take it to the next level.

BitBay quietly getting things done before huge xmas release but people still buying syscoin and not Bay? I hold both but think advertising plays a huge part in this I think?

Theres a bunch of upcoming releases right around the corner for Syscoin so I'm guessing there is some accumulation in anticipation of those... Bay seems to be going well I'd like to see commit logs to judge what works being done as I don't really have time for multiple slacks but I trust David's doing his thing and it will bump bay up for sure at the time.

Bay is already starting to move.
What are you adding in the upcoming releases sidhujag?

Bitbay? I remember this scam, related to blackcoin. Fake promises, fake pump and dump, bagholders have this coin, how can it be compared with syscoin? Sys is solid one.

Promises are kept. A lot of development in BitBay. There never was a pump, and the dump was very real  :(  But starting to recover now.
You should work on your fudding a little

Weve got some pending news

Tech wise:
https://steemit.com/syscoin/@keyare/syscoin-2-1-introduces-foundation-for-blockchain-based-identity-platform

http://syscoin.org/syscoin-2-1-blockmarket-updates/


Pruning is the.big one. Solves bloat issue and reduces bandwidth requirement for fresh synchronization with no sacrifice to security

SYS fell down to 1950 on Polo, hopefully not because of the news ;)

You remember it but joined last week. Interesting.

Sock puppets everywhere.

Great news indeed but no chance sys is worth almost 10x bay. This is just crazy.

Both projects should be valued way higher though compared to most of the coins in the top 20.

Slowly going up :
https://poloniex.com/exchange#btc_sys (https://poloniex.com/exchange#btc_sys)
Daily volume around 50 BTC

I'm holding both :)

bitbay ans syscoin not hebest choose investment in altcoin
syscoin and bitbay same not popular and low volume transaction

i think is good coin in now
1 ethereum
2 litecoin
3 monero
4 icn iconomi
5 anthsare

So your best idea of getting a return on a coin is to choose those already at the top?

Although having said this your coin choices are good also. But I don't think you can expect the returns on those you can on 500k -1m cap coins. Besides look into both of the coins being discussed and you will see they have a lot to offer you and most are unaware of.

BAY and SYS offer quite a bit compared to coins way higher in market cap. Bay i would say is an opportunity at this point if the project reaches completion which I think it will.

Fake promises?? Download the software bro. I delivered the worlds first decentralized markets.

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/this-decentralized-bitcoin-market-is-for-legal-stuff-only

The only pumping was done by the idiotic founders who wanted to harm my reputation. But they left the project... but I'm the dev, I never left. And I didn't even get much of what they raised.

Delivered decentralized markets and like 15 other features.

Sure the market cap is small, so what. I can't force people to use the best software in crypto haha. Its got the worlds best security like asynchronous payment and multisig, unbreakable contracts, decentralized markets, automated joint accounts, steganography(hiding things in images like keys), 100 languages, a live python interpreter and a bunch of templates.

So what does Dogecoin have? Nothing? Yeah thats right... just more volume. What does Litecoin have? Nothing its just old like Bitcoin. Bitbay and Syscoin at least develops and they should be above Dogecoin dammit.

Download the Bitbay software, see for yourself. It works perfectly fine. And when its pegged and templates are done? Game over. I will deliver unless I die haha.

Here we go! Looks like the theifs from the ICO are all out & dumped and it's skywards now!

Watch Bitbay catch-up to syscoin!! Blast off!!

You'r right. Without whale dumpers we should expect i nice increase in price. That's good news for both BitBay and SYS I think. A price increase for Bay will draw attention to the solutions Bay and SYS offer. 2016 has been very much about anon. Now it's time to focus on how smart contracts and decentralized markets offer advantages to mainstream users.

Does bay do anon? Sys 2.1 supports zcash payments now

Bay itself is not anon. But you can use zcash or any other anon coin on our market (If you want to use double deposit escrow, you still need Bay for the deposit)

Oh ok so they deposit bay for escrow but what facilitates the external token transferring and validating? What stops someone from using the same payment say in btc twice to fool merchant? If i understane basically its bay held in escrow and then you have to manage transfer of fiat or any other coin manually and if they screw around their deposit goes out the window?

Also how would you know what the conversion rate was at.time of sale i put this info in sysrates.peg which rhe offer can query and get any fiat asset or token rate and validate payment amounts in consensus code making it secure to the network and not just off the record sanity checks which is prone to mistakes and other issues.

It doesn't right now, however it was deemed essential or useful and the pros out weighed the negatives david would code in some privacy or anon features. Some have been discussed already.

Its a shame this thread is bay vs sys as if there can be only one. There is room for both and each approaches things slightly differently. I like both but see bay at this price as the better roi and david is also a pretty down to earth decent guy. It is impressive how quickly you incorporated zcash though well done. Upon completion both should be around 50m+ MC really if they get even the smallest success.

Its design decisions really.. if you design properly with the right decisions instead of cutting corners and base strong base then everything on top not only works properly but is fast.. it takes years to master software design but really is invaluable.once a software professional uses it to guide the construction of an architecture... i think david is also good at it although i havent seen code yet speaking with him makes me feel that.

 I can tell you that most of the revolutionary designs tend to go against conventional thinking as it takes outside the box thinking to make something that fulfills vision that noone else has but.one can see where the market is headed..to know where the market is.going before anyone else does and actually do something about it... there are very few of those around... mostly copy and paste and rehash designs which already exist to capitalize on the goldrush. Sure that may pad your pocket but no sense of satisfaction that you actually better the world which is what those types of people strive for that we are looking for in crypto.. there are few and far between but anyone looking at investing should really look for that type of person heading the ship to know its not just a pump n dump attempt and releasing vaporware

Correct



We only use conversion calculator (what you call peg, lol) for Bay-US$ and Bay-Btc. Those that need other conversions in their contracts will have to wait til we release the ability to write your own smart contracts in phyton.

"
Definition. When the price of a security, commodity, or currency is fixed at a certain amount either by agreement, or intervention in the market. This is commonly used to stabilize or fix currency exchange rates, for example many international currencies are pegged to the U.S. dollar."

Thats what a price peg means.. yours is by intervention mine is by agreement. By agreement means i can lookup at any time what that agreed rate was and use it in consensus to ensure historical payments were correct and its part of the blockchain network security...

So do you actually enforce the btc to bay price at time of sale in consensus code to ensure that thr payment was correct at the time of sale?(imagine having to resync and needing to lookup the rates)... yes sysrates.peg is just another form of peg..

In actuality, sys can peg to any asset or fiat or coin while bay will peg by definition to only bay...although bays peg is stricter and users have no choice but to pay with those rates because intervention enforces it.. with sys if users dont like the peg rate they can either choose not to buy that item or merchant can use another rate peg alias which follows rates more closely or offers an asset coin or fiat that another doesnt offer. This is the beauty of using blockchain services rather than just p2p.. and if you say bloat is an issue its not cause after expiration i prune both the db and the transaction from being spread across to other new nodes syncing up to reduce bandwidth and storage equirements

So it is not really the same level of integration at all... any coin then by your definition supports any other coins payments lol.. better just to say only bay is supported or people will get false impression

I have explained the difference between a calculator and a peg to you before:





Your last paragraph is a perfect example of how nothing makes sense anymore when you confuse a calculator with pegging



1 Sys is not pegged to anything
2 Bay is not pegged to Bay. Bay will be pegged to US$
3 Please clarify if you are talking about peg or calculator in this sentence: "although bays peg is stricter and users have no choice but to pay with those rates because intervention enforces it.. with sys if users dont like the peg rate they can either choose not to buy that item or merchant can use another rate peg alias which follows rates more closely or offers an asset coin or fiat that another doesnt offer."
4 I agree its not the same level of integration if you are talking about pegging. The rolling peg that BitBay will implement is a fundamental feature whilst our, -and syscoins, calculator is a handy add-on or service.
5 Your last sentence is correct provided that any other coin follows our example and develops a market and a safe way to do business that allows for any coin to be used.

Talking about how you incorrectly term what a peg means in the context of syscoin rates peg alias... its an agreement as per definition of a price peg. Bay is using intervention to do its peg with usd. Both are using price pegs.

Syscoin offer price can be pegged to usd or any other asset simple as that... its more than a conversion done at sale which is what im trying to explain to you...

The last sentence just means that syscoins integration with external coins is not merely as simple as depositing a coin and using it as collateral for a manual process.. for one no deposits are necessary so it has to be a more involved integration for it to work and it does work rather well.

I hope you understand this time... cause im usually mobile so if you need further clarification i can sit down and try to explain better... or better yet we can talk about it by referencing the whitepaper when im done.. that might work better

hi, i not read 2 page of this thread than already this go in clash sys vs bay  ::)

so i will try be neutral in my question..if someone can respond me simply without rage envers one or other project i would be grateful.  ;D

the problem with decentralized market is that yu must accord yur confiance at a or b part..this is available for digital item in sale.

But if yu want selling tangible item..what happens at that time ? yu must accorded yur confiance at 3 part (c)..this can be postal service or customs..so how sys or bay can resolve this problem ? if the package is lost or robbed..how to negotiate ? what is to be included in the contract ? i suppose yes..but who will take the décision of liberate funds ? if 2 part are not in agreement ? because in this case seller lost a item and buyer lost her money ? If a third party can not compensate for the loss..these markets does not risk to make white cabbage or limited to sale the digital item ?
 
(there are other problem that i not enumerate like counterfeiting or broken item or robbed...)

Of course..for this genre of buying yu can choose to buy at  trust sellers or take an assurance like special postal package..but it may cost you more..especially if you trade internationally.

From what i understood sys seems like ebay (semi auto)..and bay like openbazar (full auto)..but sys give 0,5% for arbitrator..which can be hight for a purchase of more than a hundred dollars or more..so i think bay have better policy..it(s both double trapping..but is more risked.

sys has another function that i like than bay have may be not..its sale of private item..to my knowledge no market does this..thats an exclu sys  8)


I think that these 2 projects are very successful..maybe more that dark market..succes of sys will may be opening way for bay..but problem is same..the 3 part..you must take into account this determining factor in your purchase / sale which can be a factor for fraud..and more still complicated for newbe..because it is so much easy to go out its cb and to buy on ebay or amazon..the simplicity this is what peoples of common world research.

I don't understand what you are asking?
Bitbay can sell private items. If you create a private store people can only enter the store if they are invited. So you can sell whT you like and you have control over who can shop in your store!

Can I say that if you are going to create a currency you need to be able to use it and spend it! Otherwise they are pointless and useless! What can you do with your Dogecoin or namecoins or dashcoins??? You need a market to give people the opportunity to use them. That is what these alts are doing. If they are useless the will die eventually.

SysCoin (SYS) have already benefited from high interest on the part of the traders, under the probability of activating SegWit, in this way the trades have taken advantage of the appreciation of both altcoins. SysCoin's (SYS) history is almost identical to DigiByte (DGB) having presented a modest increase in April 2016, the price remained US $ 0.01 until the release of SegWit about a possible activation, causing its price to rise in Around US $ 0.03.

Both Bitbay and Sys are the first 2 alts to be incorporated into Blocknet. Sys last week and bitbay this week.

Sys coin is good [Suspicious link removed]d team good technology
There is good time to buy sys coin for long term trading you can get a good return for long time investment