Bitcoin Forum

This thread is a place to share information and ideas on how we can make a better future for Unregulated Online Poker.

I will do my best to keep OP up to date with the most recent information so everyone can be aware of all their options.
 
Let me know if anything is wrong, a stat or site needs to be added or anything else you think will make it better.
https://i.gyazo.com/5992853a6d4436d6216bab3443854d18.png

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• swcpoker.eu (http://swcpoker.eu)
  
  Formerly known as sealswithclubs, tymicon, the original bitcoin poker site. 
  
  Unfortunately not too many exciting promos or changes worth mentioning, payouts are seem to be steady as usual though.
  

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• bovada.lv (http://bovada.lv)
  
  Known as Bodog until 2012 (DOJ seized domain, indicted CEO Calvin Ayres) the third largest site in the world has been accepting Bitcoin for just a couple months.
  
  It's completely anonymous poker, no screen names - just numbers.
  
  The payouts are getting mixed reviews, from a few hours to a few weeks.  Support doesn't seem to know much about bitcoin, which is understandable (old dog:new tricks), I would be wary at this point before moving a big chunk of bankroll over there.
  
  

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  WPN/WTN General Info:
  Compatible Software: (don't think anything is banned, although indicator probably should be)
  Pokertracker4, HEM2, All the indicator software, TableTamer (not TableNinja), Sharkscope HUD
  
  Weekly rake races for Tournaments and Cash games. (sit n crush, the beast)
  
  Most tournaments are re-entry.  Most re-entries are very long (2-4 hours).  This is how they are able to offer large guarantees which in turn attracts more players.
  
  50NL/plo and higher cash games are tough games full of regs milking the rake race.  If you've played less than a million hands lifetime you are probably not beating them.
  
  

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• 5dimes (http://5dimes.eu)
  
• bookmaker.eu (http://bookmaker.eu)
  
  Part of the Winning Poker Network (http://www.winningpokernetwork.com/)
  
  Fiat based sports books that have been around the longest.  (Bookmaker was launched by BetCris when BetCris stopped taking action from US residents)  Identity verification is only required for players who have made non-bitcoin deposits.  Stick with Bitcoin, no dox needed.  
  
  They both share total liquidity with other WPN skins (All mtts, Jackpot SNGs, SNGs, Cash Games)
  
  5dimes offers a smaller network in addition to WPN call "The Grand Poker Room"  I'm not going to go into much detail here since it's so small.
  
  Deposits and withdraws are processed by the same company, EPAY (I believe they also handle all customer service).
  
  They both offer 27% rakeback OR a vip program.  If you want the 27%, contact support.  Otherwise the default is vip program (interested in which to choose?  Check out THIS 2P2 THREAD (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/218/winning-poker-network/rakeback-elite-benefits-bonuses-depositing-thread-1494982/) )
  
  
  Issues:
  - Anytime you interact with CS, you'll be asked to give your account number and password in cleartext!  It's really weird, but it's how they do things.   
  Solution:
  Use a secure password for the poker client, you will never have to provide it.  Keep your balance in the poker client between sessions unless you want to withdraw.  
  
  Deposits are instantly converted to USD and credited to your sports account.  They can be transferred instantly back and forth from within the poker client.  Your withdraw is converted back to BTC based on the price at time of request.
  
  -Important emails regarding your account are often missed since they look like spam  
  
  
  

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• Americascardroom.com (http://Americascardroom.com)
  
• Blackchippoker.eu (http://Blackchippoker.eu)
  
  Part of the Winning Poker Network (http://www.winningpokernetwork.com/)
  
  These sites offer the same rakeback/vip programs and shared liquidity but  require proof of identity and residence.  Occasionally they have unique promotions.  
  
  The guy in charge of ACR is also the WPN Tournament Director.  He's easy to get in contact with directly if anyone needs in the WPN sub-forum on 2P2: LINK (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/218/winning-poker-network/) (his forum name is Winning_TD)
  
  Issues:
  -Bitcoin withdraws tend to take longer than 5dime or Bookmaker.  
  -If you don't want to provide your dox or can't prove you live in a state they allow, don't bother trying to play on ACR or BCP.
  

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• BetcoinPoker.ag (http://BetcoinPoker.ag)
  
  Part of the Winning Tournament Network (http://www.winningtournamentnetwork.com/)  (Limited shared liquidity with WPN.  Select MTTs and sngs only)
  
  No Documents required for any reason.
  
  Deposits and withdraws are only made with Bitcoin or Litecoin.
  
  In addition to WPN MTTs/SNGs, they offer a smaller tournament schedule, sngs and cashgames played for Bitcoin.  (same as seals, 1 btc = 1,000 chips)
  
  Decent vip program for Betcoin only games as long as you sign up with Xiaoxiao (https://www.betcoin.ag/?r=109330) <---AFFILIATE LINK ( he will pay you 'around' 40% rakeback on Betcoin only games, and some mystery amount on WPN tournaments )
  
  Tablestarter promotion
  
  
  Issues:
  - Players are often not refunded when unregistering and not paid when winning a satellite or bounty. (or many other reasons) Normally this wouldn't be a huge deal except:
  - No tournament history available for players or support! (Tracking software plus diligent record keeping is a must for any volume tournament player)
  - If you signed up under any affiliate other than Xiaoxiao, support might be able to switch you (if your affiliate doesn't mind being poached) otherwise you will be faced with the ethical dilemma of creating a new account or losing 'around' 40% of your rake for life.
  -It's possible Xiaoxiao will skim your rakeback.  If so, it may or may not be worth it to argue with him over it.  
  -VIP rewards/rakeback payments from WPN Tournaments are a complete mystery to everyone (including support). Unless something has changed recently, if you play mid+ stakes mtts, you will be underpaid.  Convincing them to pay you the difference may not be worth your time.  
  -Don't sit HU cash, rake is not capped.
  -They put most of their available effort and funding into appearing transparent and honest (sig campaign, paid reviews, "we <3 Betcoin promos") rather than earning it the way a transparent and honest company would.
  -All of THIS (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1322261.0)
  

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  Betonline.ag (http://Betonline.ag)
  

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  nitrogensports.eu (http://nitrogensports.eu)
  

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  cyberdeckpoker.com (http://cyberdeckpoker.com)
  

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  fortunejack.com (http://fortunejack.com)
  

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  Rules
  
  

  • If you are paid to promote/advertise by any poker site, disclose this fact by saying something like "X site pays me to post" before discussing X site.
  • No affiliate links
  • No Begging for anything
  • No riggie rants

  
  Examples of shilly posts that will get deleted:
  
  

  Quote from: roslinpl on June 02, 2016, 07:12:02 AM

  :) nothing will change the fact that the Betcoin.ag is the best BTC Casino I ever seen.
  

  
  

  Quote from: hua_hui on May 14, 2016, 01:13:45 AM

  I have to recommend this site cause i really love this site that is informative but i dont feel too complicated. I am someone who like things to be simple and yet this is the only site that i actually love it cause it is simple and yet it is informative. I also love that they accept many different digital currency.
  

  
  

  Quote from: michigan on January 06, 2016, 11:06:04 PM

  Betcoin poker and CASINO is the best thing to happen to online gaming in a long long time.There vip levels and rakeback are bye far the best anywhere.If you like to play poker or casino betcoin.ag is the place to be.
  

The fact we don't have a Bitcoin Poker Site with a weekly average of 300 or more active, real money players is a result of unprofessional, poorly managed sites who are rarely held accountable for their mistakes.


One reason, imo, is due to certain sites (Betcoin, FortuneJack) choosing to rely on paid campaigns and bribes instead of a quality product to build a good reputation and maintain the appearance of a transparent, public image.  I hope eventually to convince enough players to take this practice for what it is; corruption.

In addition to providing a place for anyone to find all the basic facts,  I hope this thread will help us find the best way to hold sites accountable, which will result in enough transparency and honesty to change the image the rest of the world has of "Bitcoin Poker"

Nice work.

Wtf is "red latina" network?

** I am involved with Moneypot.com that is considering adding Poker in the future

As an individual, thank you for putting this list together.

From my experience, SWC is usually more in the 6-24 hours range, but is one of my favourite poker rooms (despite occasional crashes).

I'd recommend a '5' level for well beyond 24 hours. BCP (while having an amazing amount of traffic from the WPN network) has always been at least 24 hours but more like an average time of 3-5 days. 

Ideally, I'd like to see ONE big poker hub, even if it meant several sites each connecting to the same network. 

Too many with low amount of visitors makes it discouraging to expect to always have a game when you want to.

I thouht betcoin.ag is on the WPN network but your chart shows WTN...

Please let me know what WTN stands for.

Nice thread, I will keep an eye on it.

It is some kind of Argentinian network. At any Fortunejack table you will typically find ~90% of players are from Argentina. Lots of spanish 'jajaja' at the table, and SUPER fishy.

That's awesome.  Do you know what you're doing for software?  I just checked out cyberdecks desktop client earlier, seemed decent and they have all your favorite draw/ofc game.  No games so i didn't bother depositing.

ty for update on cashouts,
 
How do these look? 
1)Instant
2)1-6 hours
3)6 - 24 hours   
4)1-3 days      
5)4+ days

Now I think it might be better to just the put the ave wait time instead of 1-5
I'm going to have more explanations up there soon.  But basically Winning Poker Network (WPN) = 6 or 7 sites  (fiat based) that share liquidity in all games.  Wpn created the Winning Tournament Network (WTN) to increase their player pool. 

Basically if you license the igtsoft software, they will let your players play select mtts/sngs and I think they just split the fee.

WTN = No WPN Cash games, jackpot sngs (might change) or limited promotions.

It seems like FJ pushed the wrong button somewhere and now they are as confused as we are about that network.

First of all I'm going to let everyone know that I am one of the largest affiliate for Betcoin; take it for what it's worth.  Second of all I have to point out that Twitchy didn't list the rewards or rake information for the sites.  After all that's an important aspect of a poker room that players care about.  

Also I think part of the reason traffic has been down lately is because it's summer time (people are out more) and because of the WSOP.

Rakeback/VIP program structures will be explained in summaries, I'll get them up after sunday.   I didn't include them in the chart because they are complicated.

Xiaos affiliate is probably the only affiliate that's worth mentioning because of Betcoins corrupt way of doing business.  My trust feedback of Xiao goes into more detail, I'll leave it out of this thread for now.

Nice thread, OP, thanks for taking the time.  ;D


Regarding BetDSI - you might wanna strike them off the list. Not offering poker services anymore.

Ty and ty.

I'm traveling right now, but looks like you're right - betdsi no longer has WPN poker as an option.

Will update op

Those options look good.

As for software, still undecided as of now (plus it's a little further down on the development list).  I have a few software companies that I'd prefer, but the most important thing to start with is network traffic imo.

Thanks for putting this list together - I appreciate the hard work!

Here is some feedback:
The Bovada.lv, Bodog and Slots.lv brands require documentation. They accept players all over USA.   Bodog is the brand for Canadian customers.  Slots.lv does not have poker, and has only slots and table games.

Balances have always been carried in USD.  You can deposit with a credit card and payouts were via check, wire, etc...  In May 2016, they added BTC deposits and withdrawals.

All withdrawals have an "estimated" approval time of 72 hours. Until approved, balances are left on the site, and are playable funds.

Once approved, Bovada "estimates" you will get BTC in your wallet within 2-6 hours.  The withdrawal amount is converted from USD to BTC when the payment transaction is sent to your wallet.  Although some withdrawals are completed as quickly as 2-3 days several people had issues in late May 2016, and it took over 20 days to hit wallets.

Emailing or calling regular support staff can be very frustrating as their abilities, responsibility and knowledge are limited.  Currently they also have poor knowledge of Bitcoin, the blockchain and how Bitcoin transfers work.  I've read "Bank Statements" were asked for a bitcoin withdrawal, and that "typo errors" were made when sending payments. If you have any issues, call and talk to a supervisor or manager.  They have the ability to expedite and resolve issues better than general support staff.

Feedback on Betcoin.TM:
I've never seen much action on their Poker.  After a few small deposits, I hit big multiple times in a row on their slots several months ago.  Had some serious delays in getting my withdrawals processed, but I had several large withdrawals processed.  I was informed a security check was pending by the admin.  It took a while, and general support's abilities were restricted with what they could do and status updates.  It took about 10 days to get the first installment payment, and subsequent withdrawals were quick.  I tried some tiny deposits and withdrawals last month, and those seemed to work fine.

Betcoin.TM also keeps pending withdrawals in the players playable funds until they are processed.  It requires patience to not play off your pending when casinos keep pending withdrawls in available balance.

updated some stuff, will update some more stuff some other time




Thanks for updates.  My wallet on Bodog says 1-15 min withdraw time, do you (or anyone) see that?  Not that I would expect it, just curious.

All my deposits to Bodog have been relatively quick.  If I recall, it only took a few minutes each time.

I'm thinking OP is mistaken about Bodog/Bovada ever processing BTC withdrawals. I'm on Bovada.lv and in May they began accepting BTC deposits ONLY. No withdrawals now,  and no timeframe or suggestion that they might be offered soon.

At first I believe Bovada only accepted Bitcoin deposits, but recently they also offer withdraws.

Intertops took the same approach.

Here's what my cashier looks like for Bovada:

https://i.gyazo.com/8257385c78002d5daea763e93a585eb6.png

I've deposited already (couple times) with Bitcoin though, have you?  Thinking maybe you don't get the option until your first btc depo?

Many poker players being introduced to bitcoin because of this: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28/internet-poker/bodog-bovada-payout-thread-us-players-do-not-post-bank-names-1553/index928.html



Other news: NY Senate just approved online gaming legislation - prob wont get it through assembly and signed this year, but the dominos are falling in USA, which is good, but it also makes convincing poker players to come over to the unregulated world more difficult.  

Thank you very much, I will definitely take another look. I have USD stranded on Bovada forever, would loooove to withdraw using BTC.

You're welcome.

Haven't been giving OP the love it deserves and have some WSOP events coming up,  but it's on my list.

Why do so many places need doc even for a small payout ? I dont like it at all.

Because they are fiat based and must follow fiat bank regulations.

Is there any information on the player base?
I usually select places I play depending on the amount of active players.
I'm not sure which one that would be nowadays with Bitcoin.

I'll be adding that.  Right now Bovada WPN sites have by far the largest player pools though.

Thank you for the nice chart I was unsure where to play as I'm new to poker and learning still. This helps me alot. Now I know who to avoid and who not to. You just saved me hours of research :)

Never mind.  Scratch this lol.

Just deposited, had 3 confirmations within their 15 minute window and had to phone in and even though I had Bodog support confirm that they see funds in the deposit address, I have to wait up to 6 hours, and am instructed to e-mail them screenshots only AFTER that 6 hours. 

Really has changed my view on Bodog services.

its been 2 weeks since, but my last two deposits, each for $1k usd were available in account within 20 seconds (0 confirms)

they prob got raped by doublespend chip dumps and now are over compensating.

could easily take a site that size a year or more before they figure out reliable way to protect them self and still be efficient  plus train staff. 

anyone here tried to play in Bovada or Bodog from a restricted country ?? if yes please tell me how
I'm really disappointed , I have always wanted to play there and was so glad when they started accepting bitcoins but it showed that they don't accept people from my country ( same with Bodog and the asian version )
I thought that the unregulated sites that accept US players do accept players from all countries  :(

I don't know this as fact, but i think if you can show a bill or something to show your residence is somewhere they accept players they will approve account and then if you travel somewhere else and play you won't have problems. just avoid sharing ip or computer with any other Bodog acct.

Still not credited after 10 e-mails back and forth :(

DAMN YOU BODOGGGGGGGGG

Update:

"
I can definitely understand your frustration with the time it is taking to complete the review and determine what occurred with your deposit; however, this does take about 24-48 hours to complete and I can assure you that we will advise you as soon as we know more information.
 "

lolol