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Title: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 18, 2016, 05:46:44 PM Looks to me that they got themselves in deep legal shit...
a) The terms and conditions of the particular smart contract supersedes hundreds of years of US legal contract law, not! Directly or indirectly, this has been fudded all over the internet. 100% of the legal consensus is that in the US, US contract law is the guiding agent. Who has jurisdiction is another matter, but in whatever jurisdiction, that jurisdiction's legal system is the controlling entity. You are not waving away the US court system with words written in magic pixie dust on a piece of paper. b) It''s clear that the Ethereum foundation immediately needs to consult with legal experts in the areas of contract law and security and exchange law in order to clarify in their talks what exactly they can and cannot claim/promise. CEO's never say anything for public attribution without clearing it with legal. Absolutely! Why do they fail if they fork? Seems to me the fanboys who buy anything that sounds good, don't really care about whether it is decentralized, because we were writing for months in the Ethereum Paradox thread that Casper would be moving it towards centralization. They only believe what they want to believe. So why would recovering the funds for the fanboys be worse than not from the perspective of sustaining Ethereum? They can state that the rules weren't well elucidated and that in the future, all users must understand that contracts are not warranted to perform as advertised. Tual has potentially a big problem if they didn't do adequate disclosure. This can end up in lawsuits and he can end up prosecuted under securities regulations. If they did make very clear and conspicuous disclosure about risks, then they definitely shouldn't fork because no one will ever again know what the rules are (as they will be open to change at-will). All about fungibility and centralization. It sucks, and I don't think anyone could honestly argue that the attacker deserves the coins, but intervening would be disastrous to the long term prospects of ETH. There's plenty of precedent to suggest that intervention like this would be a death sentence. The "fanboys" wouldn't care, but as far as long term adoption and all that goes, you're really shooting yourself in the foot. Those in it for the quick money are no doubt pissed off, but anyone in it for the long haul should be staunchly against a fork. I think the "attacker" deserves the funds, because and assuming he did nothing illegal (but I am not even sure if he didn't violate some obscure law). But we are discussing about perceptions of what the risks are. Please re-read my prior post as I added to it. For me, it hinges on whether they had adequately explained/disclosed the risks to the DAO and ETH investors. I suspect not (otherwise why $168m invested[1]). Thus I argue they can fork and then make the conspicuous and repeated disclosure so that it is clear they will be consistent from here on. And they pretty much have to fork in that case, else they throw themselves under the legal liability bus (but due to the decline in the ETH price they are fucked legally no matter what they do). As for the threats of lawsuits from the "attacker", these can be ignored because they can claim that the majority has the Byzantine power to fork and everyone who uses CC knows that. Or they can take the stance that all CC investors should know the risks and that they are the owners, because it is decentralized. In that case, they shouldn't fork, but I think they will lose this argument in court perhaps. The DAO investors can file a class action lawsuit for example (which btw supercedes every international jurisdiction!) and claim to be n00bs who trusted Vitalik and Tual their idols. I believe this clusterfuck is going to lead to securities regulation of CC. :'( Vitalik is growing up very fast I think right about now. [1] Where are the statements about how participants could lose everything if there is a bug? They should have scared away some of the money. I read 18,000 investors for $168 million, so several $1000s each. Luckily there is Common law. Contracts are all about consent; abusing a gap/hole/vulnerability in a contract is obviously non-consentual and thus illegal. Without such a legal framework, no contract in the world could exist. No contract is perfect. Agreed. My father specializes in contract law, graduated top of his class at L.S.U. and was former West Coast Division Attorney for Exxon. I once was fretting over the fine print of a contract for a $205,000 license I sold for CoolPage in 2001, and he advised to not kill the contract negotiations because he said the court would not enforce a one-sided contract. So contract law interprets what is the intent, not just what is written in the contract. Do you mean the intent of the DAO is not to enrich somebody by $50 million by exploiting a hole in the coding? No. leopard2 and I mean that the intent of the DAO contract is roughly not to allow 1 user take all the value out without consensus voting. And contract law will likely Edit: but note it is not clear whether the law could enforce it (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517223.msg15271289#msg15271289). Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: mandica on June 18, 2016, 06:04:26 PM Vitalik just proposed a solution to the crisis. If the Ethereum community accepts that, it is the responsibility of the community. The community will go to the prison.
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 18, 2016, 06:07:27 PM Vitalik just proposed a solution to the crisis. If the Ethereum community accepts that, it is the responsibility of the community. The community will go to the prison. Who was doing the promotion that caused the $168m to blindly invest? Who were those n00bs entrusting their faith in? These are the issues that matter in securities law. I been warning everyone for the past months that they needed to put very conspicuous warnings else they risk the wrath of the law. Hey I am an (min)anarchist, so I agree with you except I can't deny that the State and the Law exist. I agree that the n00bs should be responsible for their own actions. And that they are the community so they are in charge of the open source protocol outcome. But the problem is the minority is subject to the will of the majority. So the minority could still file a class action lawsuit alleging that for example (and there are many others) Minecache told them that Vitalik is a genius: Fantastic article on Vitalik. He is quite a genius and we are all so proud that he works on the Ethereum project. https://backchannel.com/the-uncanny-mind-that-built-ethereum-9b448dc9d14f#.jckispyvx They should have warned all those DAO investors that they could lose everything. They should have made that very very conspicuous. Vitalik and Tual need to lawyer up if they haven't already done so. I suspect they MUST do a fork and then communicate much more vigorously the risks to the users of this system going forward (which would also perhaps dampen enthusiasm but maybe not if they are word crafty). I think once the Ethereum Foundation consults with lawyers, they will realize this. Then they have to convince the stakeholders. And hope none of the users file a class action lawsuit (but I expect TPTB planted their own users already and the class action lawsuit is coming). Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 18, 2016, 06:48:23 PM This is not your fight. ETH can and will be fine. If it had been a bug in the EVM, fork-away. It wasn't, and all you have done with your meddling is destroy any trust anyone had, in running a trust-less system. If Vitalik wasn't also a Curator and thus implied promoter of the DAO, then I'd agree with you 100%[1]. Let Tual et al, take any legal liability. But I am thinking maybe Vitalik is legally in deep shit also: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517223.0 But maybe you are correct and the lawyers will advise the Ethereum Foundation to do nothing, so as to not admit they are the ones "securing" the investments of the users so they don't fall under purview of the securities law. But I still think they are going to damned because they didn't make adequate disclosures. Nobody from their camp warned anything while the DAO was accumulating $168m. I and others were warning that this huge pot of egold ripe for losses (either exchange value losses or outright technological losses) and not making proper disclosure was going to end up a legal clusterfuck. So now here we are. Bitcoin didn't have a key personality as a promoter. [1] But that would mean I also agree the majority can do a 51% attack and change the protocol. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: bathrobehero on June 18, 2016, 07:19:51 PM Except Vitalik has nothing to do with US laws (fortunately).
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Minecache on June 18, 2016, 07:21:36 PM What a load of bitter FUD.
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 18, 2016, 07:24:34 PM Hey guys I hope they are not in any legal trouble.
Why does every inquiry have to be labeled FUD? These are legitimate thoughts. Whether they are likely or not, I am not sure. Bitter about what? Why would I be bitter? I haven't lost anything. I haven't gloated either. I read that class action lawsuits filed (in the USA or any where) supercede all nations' jurisdictions and they can under international law then subpoena in any nation. I read that on Armstrong's website recently. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: charleshoskinson on June 18, 2016, 07:28:03 PM Nothing to do with US laws. Hahaha hahaha, God you're funny. Best joke I've heard all day. Look up US Securities treaties
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Auponef on June 18, 2016, 07:29:20 PM Vitalik just proposed a solution to the crisis. If the Ethereum community accepts that, it is the responsibility of the community. The community will go to the prison. Who was doing the promotion that caused the $168m to blindly invest? Who were those n00bs entrusting their faith in? These are the issues that matter in securities law. So all the scam coin creators should go to jail. But everyday, there are numerous scam coins created to scam people. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: hv_ on June 18, 2016, 07:40:36 PM Tone Vays at 15:00. ( best at 18:30!)
https://youtu.be/ULF4qMcokLg Not more to say... Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 18, 2016, 08:15:07 PM Nothing to do with US laws. Hahaha hahaha, God you're funny. Best joke I've heard all day. Look up US Securities treaties Who are you addressing this to? Is this addressed to bathrobehero or to me or to the person I quoted in the OP? I have not made reference specifically to USA law. I am quoting in the OP about common law as it pertains to contracts. There are many common law countries on earth. The point I am making is that when class action lawsuits are pressed (in the case of the potential security), that is often when securities regulators are compelled to become involved (at least in the USA and I don't know about other countries but I presume they have some securities regulation also). Ethereum and the DAO I presume are held by people in many nations on earth, so laws can filed in any of those nations. And I also understand that class action lawsuits from the USA are sometimes endorsed in other countries (but not that I am claiming any class action lawsuit has to originate from the USA): http://brooklynworks.brooklaw.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1098&context=bjil http://lsr.nellco.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1388&context=nyu_lewp#page=4 I don't know to what extent international securities treaties exclude jurisdiction for example issuance of ETH tokens from Switzerland or Germany to non-accredited USA users. Ditto DAO tokens. Could you enlighten us? I've read that foreign issuers are subject to US Securities Law when issuing to USA persons, but I think there may be some exceptions. Maybe you can shed more light on this for us? But again, I wasn't focusing solely on the USA jurisdiction. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 18, 2016, 08:24:50 PM So all the scam coin creators should go to jail. I never wrote what should or shouldn't happen. I am trying to ascertain what the risks are. Why blame me for wanting to know? It is as if you are thinking that I am saying all scam coin creators should go to jail, when in fact I just finished the prior day a public passionate discussion with smooth wherein I stated exactly the opposite stance (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1513252.msg15254429#msg15254429) to what you imply I am promulgating. Do you not see the Subject of this thread has a question mark. There is a distinction between inquiry and accusation. I suppose I don't need to remind you gentlemen how to use a dictionary. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: 2dogs on June 18, 2016, 08:38:29 PM Tone Vays at 15:00. ( best at 18:30!) https://youtu.be/ULF4qMcokLg Not more to say... Absolutely spot on! Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 18, 2016, 08:49:48 PM Tone Vays at 15:00. ( best at 18:30!) https://youtu.be/ULF4qMcokLg Not more to say... Absolutely spot on! He has inconsistencies in his logic. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 18, 2016, 09:31:20 PM Yeah just that you cannot legally give away stolen funds...so the miners would make themselves legally vulnerable. Vulnerable to what, a lawsuit? That's about as fanciful as the idea the daoattacker will sue the Ethereum Foundation really. It would also bring in to question the whole legality and regulation (or lack thereof) of TheDAO. This doesn't mean I think they'll accept it of course. If mining is decentralized, I think it is impossible to enforce a court decision on the miners because new miners can pop up any where. You'd need some totalitarian total world control over the Internet and block the protocol. Doesn't seem plausible near-term in current state of the world. More likely any court decision would be enforced on the exchanges. New exchanges could pop up, but they can also be regulated. Perhaps any class action suit if any might attempt to name any of those prominant insiders who have profited by promoting and selling ETH such as Vitalik, Tual, etc.. I am not sure if a lawyer would advise that or not, and whether it could be successful. I hope they've retained counsel. Well, he would lose in court and I personally never received a "cease and desist letter." If it forks, it's the community that's forking it....he'd have to send everybody a "cease and desist." And, the intent of the contract is what will take precedence in a court and it was obviously not intended for the exploiter to steal all our funds. Maybe he'd get one count of wire fraud per investor frauded....He should take the profits from his ETH short and run before a hot curling iron introduces his butt hairs to a perm, IMHO! How would he lose? He did avid by the rules of the DAO smart contract, he did not modify anything as far as I know, so being strict the definition of decentralized smart contract, he did not do anything illegal... very tricky scenario. The argument is there is no one the court could pinpoint to enforce such a ruling on. The miners, exchanges, users, and devs would all play a role in the community outcome, yet no one can be identified as responsible for that outcome. Whereas, if the developers and foundation push for a fork and politik for a 51% attack on the protocol, then the attacker potentially accuse them of being in control of the enterprise and sue them. So that is why I say it is very risky for them to fork. OTOH, if they don't fork, they might be vulnerable to a class action suit from the n00bs who had their ETH taken from them by the "smart" (too smart = dumb) contract. This is why I made a thread to ask (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517223.0) if the developers who have promoted this so carelessly without conspicuous warnings, could be in deep legal trouble now? They appear to me perhaps the easiest to target with a lawsuit, but IANAL so I am pondering what is their risk? But note the "attacker" may have committed an illegal action or at least violated contract law, so in that case is unlikely to reveal identity and sue. Thus I was thinking the safest is to fork, but that has the risk of the n00bs potentially accusing them of being in control of the coin and class action sue them for the exchange rate losses. So it seems those who created and promoted ETH and DAO (without sufficient warnings of risks) may have a legal quagmire, but IANAL so I am just hoping they have retained adequate counsel. Quote from: https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/05/06/daos-dacs-das-and-more-an-incomplete-terminology-guide/ Bitcoin is an interesting case here. In general, it seems to be much closer to a DAO than a DO. However, there was one incident in 2013 where the reality proved to be rather different. What happened was that an exceptional block was (at least we hope) accidentally produced, which was treated as valid according to the BitcoinQt 0.8 clients, but invalid according to the rules of BitcoinQt 0.7. The blockchain forked, with some nodes following the blockchain after this exceptional block (we’ll call this chain B1), and the other nodes that saw that block as invalid working on a separate blockchain (which we’ll call B2). Most mining pools had upgraded to BitcoinQt 0.8, so they followed B1, but most users were still on 0.7 and so followed B2. The mining pool operators came together on IRC chat, and agreed to switch their pools to mining on B2, since that outcome would be simpler for users because it would not require them to upgrade, and after six hours the B2 chain overtook B1 as a result of this deliberate action, and B1 fell away. Thus, in this case, there was a deliberate 51% attack which was seen by the community as legitimate, making Bitcoin a DO rather than a DAO. In most cases, however, this does not happen, so the best way to classify Bitcoin would be as a DAO with an imperfection in its implementation of autonomy. If 51% of the miners decide to fork, I think I will follow the majority and support the fork to get back the money from the attacker. Satoshi had a term for that, he called it attacking the network: As long as a majority of CPU power is controlled by nodes that are not cooperating to attack the network ... - Satoshi Nakamoto (bitcoin.pdf) So, no, there has been no "hack" or "attack" so far, but Vitalik, Tual, and their cronies are working on one. Soft forks are 51% attacks. At best, when done for relatively-benign upgrade purposes, they demonstrate a vulnerability of the network and should still raise some level of concern that the developers and miners are able to conspire to pull off a 51% attack. When done transfer control over coins, that is outright theft. Smooth if forks are authorized by a protocol that was designed in the coin from the start, i.e. an ability to vote on changes by stake holders for a PoS coin (e.g. DASH) (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1505886.msg15271779#msg15271779), then that appears to not be a 51% attack. But otherwise I agree with you, and when you have the same group of devs from the ICO able to control the politik then they are essentially running the enterprise. There is a grey area where someone from the outside creates a fork and the users and miners spontaneously decide to switch over to it. This can be argued to be a feature of decentralization and open source, and necessary to correct deficiencies. Yet it is still a 51% attack. If done with proof-of-burn, then it is not a 51% attack. But your analysis of the issues here seems to be oversimplified because the law interacts with all this to create more complex scenarios. Please read this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517223.msg15271289#msg15271289 Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: cryptonfly on June 18, 2016, 09:57:52 PM Except Vitalik has nothing to do with US laws (fortunately). Fuck The Law Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 19, 2016, 03:43:30 AM Re: BREAKING NEWS: DAO Attacker Identified!! Judging by this, the maverick Mircea Popescu seems to be taking credit: http://trilema.com/2016/to-the-dao-and-the-ethereum-community-fuck-you/ I didn't verify the Keccak hash (which is apparently why others thought the hash didn't match because they were assuming SHA256?). If it matches, then I would expect MP could be the one to pull this off. He has also told the SEC go to fuck themselves. You all may remember AnonyMint once debated MP on BCT about his cavalier attitude towards the SEC. So this changes the complexity of Vitalik's decision process (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517223.msg15271289#msg15271289), because he appears convinced that he can win a suit in tort law. He appears to be arguing that splitting was an intended feature and they he did not violate the intent of the contract. Given that The DAO's only purpose was a power vacuum game theory of who could capture the pooled ETH (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1505886.msg15273183#msg15273183), I am thinking maybe he and his lawyers are correct. So much drama today. Also: https://blog.ethereum.org/2016/06/19/thinking-smart-contract-security/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4oqdnc/the_ethereum_foundation_needs_to_distance_itself/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4oq6yh/will_stephan_tual_apologize/ Edit: I was very sleepy when I wrote the above. I see now that MP's plan is not to sue in court, but rather to incentivize the miners not to fork: https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/exclusive-full-interview-transcript-alleged-dao-attacker/ If the exchanges try to blacklist his ETH, that kills fungibility and ETH will collapse in price. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 19, 2016, 11:43:22 AM It's different if the remedy comes from within the logic of the DAO code itself. That would be appropriate because that was where the logic failed. But forking at the Ethereum blockchain level is just suicide. I realise that only the DAO would be affected by the fork but that just makes it even worse because it shows that forks can cherry pick what contracts they want to immute. I'm afraid the damage done in terms of loss of confidence will be irreparable. Ignoring the legal factors which impact the game theory because that enterprise is not really decentralized (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517223.msg15271289#msg15271289) (e.g. Vitalik, Tual, et al hyping moonshots to n00b dreamers (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1504662.msg15217997#msg15217997) without sobering disclaimers and the incestuous same set of good ole boys as Curators (https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4oqdnc/the_ethereum_foundation_needs_to_distance_itself/) of The DAO), then I agree with you that the only fork of the Ethereum protocol which would be agnostic would be that which would futilely attempt to "fix" the litany of corner case bugs induced by Turing-complete programming (https://blog.ethereum.org/2016/06/19/thinking-smart-contract-security/). Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Natoliant on June 19, 2016, 11:51:18 AM If the "attacker" exposes him/herself and he/she is in the US as he said in the open letter, I think he could be sent to prison for the hacking with bad intent.
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 19, 2016, 11:58:26 AM If the "attacker" exposes him/herself and he/she is in the US as he said in the open letter, I think he could be sent to prison for the hacking with bad intent. MP is the person who drained the DAO. Did you read my post above where I wrote to verify the Keccak hash? MP is the antithesis of Craig Wright. He does not bullshit. MP is the one who did this. He is surely capable of it. Trivial factoid: MP and rpietila were enemies since before 2013. And in 2013, MP sent AnonyMint a private message offering collaboration. AnonyMint has grown to respect MP as a maverick peer, and in some respects in awe of MP. MP's support of Blockstream could end up causing a conflict between MP and AnonyMint at some point in the near future. ;D Titans will do battle. Prepare your cupboard supply of popcorn. I am confused by MP's support of Blockstream, because I thought he was for small blocks and was willing to kill XT to defend the status quo (i.e. Classic): Quote from: https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/exclusive-full-interview-transcript-alleged-dao-attacker/ DA: The people behind ethereum are deceptive, for example everyone with a clue (Adam Back, Gregory Maxwell) knows that there is 0% chance for “CASPER” proof of stake to work, but yet they advertise it. Note TPTB_need_war was the first person pointing out that Casper wouldn't work in the Ethereum Paradox thread and also on Reddit. Yet MP gives Blockstream credit for TPTB's research. >:( So is that interview legitimate? If so that guy gives zero fucks and is a straight internet gangster. Not my type person, but I kinda admire him. Mircea Popescu (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517355.msg15273764#msg15273764) (MP) has a core constitution which is that every person should be responsible for themself. And he originally was adamant that he would attack any Bitcoin fork that raised the block size. He also appears to be against shitcoins and he is a Bitcoin maximalist. He sees himself as a defender of anarchism. He also is motivated by profit. I definitely agree with his anarchism/self-responsibility constitution, but if he is supporting Blockstream's Rube Goldberg complexity future-clusterfuck Troika of SegWit, Side-chains, and Lightning Networks then he and I are going to disagree! GTFO of ETH at $12 while you still can! The deadcat bounce is topping and lower, lower we will go. Because MP is not a bullshitter. And he has very significant BTC resources > 50,000 BTC. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 19, 2016, 12:24:42 PM Yup those good ole boys who control the enterprise were hyping a moonshot without sobering disclaimers:
https://i.imgflip.com/161hkw.jpg (https://imgflip.com/i/161hkw) https://i.imgflip.com/161hi8.jpg (https://imgflip.com/i/161hi8) But it is vitaliks centrally planned toy. Vitalik has been and will be the central weak link of the project. If he wishes to break the immutability of the blockchain. Let it be so! https://i.imgur.com/GAz0GmS.png Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: maxsinner on June 19, 2016, 12:31:28 PM Looks to me that they got themselves in deep legal shit... a) The terms and conditions of the particular smart contract supersedes hundreds of years of US legal contract law, not! Directly or indirectly, this has been fudded all over the internet. 100% of the legal consensus is that in the US, US contract law is the guiding agent. Who has jurisdiction is another matter, but in whatever jurisdiction, that jurisdiction's legal system is the controlling entity. You are not waving away the US court system with words written in magic pixie dust on a piece of paper. b) It''s clear that the Ethereum foundation immediately needs to consult with legal experts in the areas of contract law and security and exchange law in order to clarify in their talks what exactly they can and cannot claim/promise. CEO's never say anything for public attribution without clearing it with legal. Absolutely! Why do they fail if they fork? Seems to me the fanboys who buy anything that sounds good, don't really care about whether it is decentralized, because we were writing for months in the Ethereum Paradox thread that Casper would be moving it towards centralization. They only believe what they want to believe. So why would recovering the funds for the fanboys be worse than not from the perspective of sustaining Ethereum? They can state that the rules weren't well elucidated and that in the future, all users must understand that contracts are not warranted to perform as advertised. Tual has potentially a big problem if they didn't do adequate disclosure. This can end up in lawsuits and he can end up prosecuted under securities regulations. If they did make very clear and conspicuous disclosure about risks, then they definitely shouldn't fork because no one will ever again know what the rules are (as they will be open to change at-will). All about fungibility and centralization. It sucks, and I don't think anyone could honestly argue that the attacker deserves the coins, but intervening would be disastrous to the long term prospects of ETH. There's plenty of precedent to suggest that intervention like this would be a death sentence. The "fanboys" wouldn't care, but as far as long term adoption and all that goes, you're really shooting yourself in the foot. Those in it for the quick money are no doubt pissed off, but anyone in it for the long haul should be staunchly against a fork. I think the "attacker" deserves the funds, because and assuming he did nothing illegal (but I am not even sure if he didn't violate some obscure law). But we are discussing about perceptions of what the risks are. Please re-read my prior post as I added to it. For me, it hinges on whether they had adequately explained/disclosed the risks to the DAO and ETH investors. I suspect not (otherwise why $168m invested[1]). Thus I argue they can fork and then make the conspicuous and repeated disclosure so that it is clear they will be consistent from here on. And they pretty much have to fork in that case, else they throw themselves under the legal liability bus (but due to the decline in the ETH price they are fucked legally no matter what they do). As for the threats of lawsuits from the "attacker", these can be ignored because they can claim that the majority has the Byzantine power to fork and everyone who uses CC knows that. Or they can take the stance that all CC investors should know the risks and that they are the owners, because it is decentralized. In that case, they shouldn't fork, but I think they will lose this argument in court perhaps. The DAO investors can file a class action lawsuit for example (which btw supercedes every international jurisdiction!) and claim to be n00bs who trusted Vitalik and Tual their idols. I believe this clusterfuck is going to lead to securities regulation of CC. :'( Vitalik is growing up very fast I think right about now. [1] Where are the statements about how participants could lose everything if there is a bug? They should have scared away some of the money. I read 18,000 investors for $168 million, so several $1000s each. Luckily there is Common law. Contracts are all about consent; abusing a gap/hole/vulnerability in a contract is obviously non-consentual and thus illegal. Without such a legal framework, no contract in the world could exist. No contract is perfect. Agreed. My father specializes in contract law, graduated top of his class at L.S.U. and was former West Coast Division Attorney for Exxon. I once was fretting over the fine print of a contract for a $205,000 license I sold for CoolPage in 2001, and he advised to not kill the contract negotiations because he said the court would not enforce a one-sided contract. So contract law interprets what is the intent, not just what is written in the contract. Do you mean the intent of the DAO is not to enrich somebody by $50 million by exploiting a hole in the coding? No. leopard2 and I mean that the intent of the DAO contract is roughly not to allow 1 user take all the value out without consensus voting. And contract law will likely Edit: but note it is not clear whether the law could enforce it (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517223.msg15271289#msg15271289). I do hope they end up in jail, but I really doubt it. A lot of guys in prison will appreciate Vitalik in many different ways, I am sure. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: electronicash on June 19, 2016, 12:31:50 PM Except Vitalik has nothing to do with US laws (fortunately). So that's going to save his ass? Good lord ;D I've invested on DAOs too but I definitely don't put all my life savings there. we all know crypto isn't the whole thing in this world. And i guess those investors who deposit millions thinking they'd earn millions as well are just as noobs as they are. so they shouldnt try to find anyone to blame. they've been warned a lot of times in this forum. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 19, 2016, 01:00:06 PM You're mixing apples and potatoes here. Bitcoin mostly uses soft-forks in order to improve its capabilities. Bitcoin has never used any kind of coin-control or bailouts which is exactly what ETH is going to do. If they do that, ETH is not immutable. Period. Forking to remove 184 billion Bitcoins is a form of coin control. Do you understand that Bitcoin was forked to address an issue created by a bug in the Bitcoin code? It was not forked because a transaction script did not do what someone expected as DoOverCoin is proposing to do. Intent is ambiguous unless we bind ourselves to a majority vote: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1505886.msg15278364#msg15278364 Thus I now say the fork of Bitcoin was equivalent to a fork of Ethereum w.r.t. to the context we are debating. I just realized this. Btw, this is also why Satoshi did not solve the Byzantine General's Problem (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1183043.msg13818755#msg13818755). Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 19, 2016, 03:31:22 PM In other words, I have no idea what sort of people Vitalik hangs with, so talking shit on the interweb prob'ly ain't the smartest thing ever. ... This could be his downfall if Ethereum sides with "law" and lure him into violating some US law. The SEC is probably still waiting to entrap him. But I don't like where Vitalik is headed with this blacklisting shit! :( As many of us opined before the failure, The DAO was going to lead to more regulation of CC. Vitalik et al creating an obvious clusterfuck that results in blacklisting thus handing the State the power to implement KYC blocking in the future, just smacks of premeditated. The legalness of the "attack" got murky when the "attacker" put in the order for the eth short. Curious to see if using that information, or dissemination of it to others, constitutes insider trading. The vulnerability was open sourced before (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1505886.msg15273470#msg15273470) he did it thus apparently no insider information was used! Even the developers of DAO had a patch but didn't push through with it. It is so unbelieveable, but I can't make this stuff up. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: BitUsher on June 19, 2016, 04:27:44 PM Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: BitUsher on June 19, 2016, 04:37:00 PM Truth about the "1 million dollar" security audit-
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4ota1q/the_truth_about_the_security_audit_stephen_tual/ This is the only published security report from Deja Vu Security for Slockit. https://mega.nz/#!MVwHAaxb!Ym7TYpjO5k059bty5rWG-Cwi6jjd78rl1HeTsE4PIBc A 3 page document with under 100 words of text, concerning an 'Integer Division Error Accumulation' dating from March 25th. If there has been more comprehensive code review, the burden lies on Slockit it team and theDao curators to prove this. From the evidence at hand, there is ZERO evidence of a comprehensive security audit, which is shameful and sickening. This seems like an elaborate plot to: Save money on security audits (since he wasn't getting paid 1 mil USD) Attribute blame to DejaVu, even though technically they were not asked to comprehensively review DAO code. If there was no additional security audit, DejaVu is well within its rights to sue Tual for libel. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 19, 2016, 04:50:18 PM LTB Live - TheDAO TheFork TheFallout https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHcLKrkwPLQ Published on Jun 18, 2016 A live show recorded in the aftermath of the DAO's draining of funds by an unknown actor. In this show, Andreas M. Antonopoulos moderates a discussion with guests Pamela Morgan (attorney), Brian Klein (attorney) and Taylor Gerring (Ethereum Project co-founder), with live twitter Q&A and participation from the DAO slack channel. Starting at @11min and especially @18:30min, some of my upthread points about the legal culpability are backed up by a real attorney! Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 19, 2016, 05:58:37 PM Vitalik et al are playing with fire as I pondered upthread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHcLKrkwPLQ#t=3864 Especially listen at 1:06:15! And listen at 1:11:15 where the attorney says Vitalik (et al) is creating dangerous legal liability for himself (themselves) by being the judge! The likely party to be sued are those who can be identified and have a pot of money. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: BitUsher on June 19, 2016, 06:08:22 PM https://dao.report/
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: varusisog on June 19, 2016, 06:08:59 PM Vitalik et al are playing with fire as I pondered upthread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHcLKrkwPLQ#t=3864 Especially listen at 1:06:15! And listen at 1:11:15 where the attorney says Vitalik (et al) is creating dangerous legal liability for himself (themselves) by being the judge! The likely party to be sued are those who can be identified and have a pot of money. Vitalik just propose a change to the Etheruem protocol. It is the miners who will be responsible for the restoring the money from the theft. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 19, 2016, 06:11:41 PM Vitalik et al are playing with fire as I pondered upthread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHcLKrkwPLQ#t=3864 Especially listen at 1:06:15! And listen at 1:11:15 where the attorney says Vitalik (et al) is creating dangerous legal liability for himself (themselves) by being the judge! The likely party to be sued are those who can be identified and have a pot of money. Vitalik just propose a change to the Etheruem protocol. It is the miners who will be responsible for the restoring the money from the theft. The court may not agree that Vitalik has no political power. Considering how much all the mETH supporters prays at his feet, I'd say it is likely the court will find that Vitalik and his accomplices are significantly in control of the enterprise. But that is just my opinion as an observer. What do others think? And remember that the attorney pointed out that each of the 1000s of plaintiffs can sue in any one of the 1000s of jurisdictions. Someone can find a favorable judge some where!!! This is what I specifically warned about over the past months. I can even quote where I said that jurisdiction shopping would be a PITA because one would have to defend themselves against an unbounded number of threats. As the attorney Pamela points out, this issue could have been significantly mitigated if their attorneys had advised them to add an arbitration clause to the TOS and also had more sobering disclosures on their TOS so that plaintiffs couldn't just choose willynilly to make any sort of claim of injury in any jurisdiction. Who set up the legal structure for Ethereum et al? They apparently suck! Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: densuj on June 19, 2016, 06:15:04 PM It is too fast if we judge vitalik going to end in jail, because he is just a part of developer ethereum. And we are don't have any proof that vitalik has taken the coins.
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 19, 2016, 06:17:26 PM It is too fast if we judge vitalik going to end in jail, because he is just a part of developer ethereum. And we are don't have any proof that vitalik has taken the coins. I've morphed my understanding to threats being more civil lawsuits and not securities regulation with potential criminal liability, although the former can apparently in some cases drive the latter (i.e. the SEC feels compelled to come in because of the public outrage, which the attorney mentioned early in that linked video). Now that we have a real attorney on camera, you all can stop thinking I am full of bullshit. Vindicated! Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: fedmahnkassad on June 19, 2016, 06:24:20 PM I just want to know who are the fucktards still buying ETH at the current prices.
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: GreenBits on June 19, 2016, 06:31:24 PM I just want to know who are the fucktards still buying ETH at the current prices. The answer was in your question :) but seriously, those are the vultures, thinking there are bones at pick. It's going to get much leaner when they publically announce the forkage decision. Basically, if you are buying now, you are assuming this is the bottom (it's not). Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: varusisog on June 19, 2016, 06:35:48 PM I just want to know who are the fucktards still buying ETH at the current prices. I am a miner, but as the price is quite low at the moment, i have stopping selling, that might support the price a bit. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 19, 2016, 06:46:52 PM This stuttering "genius" is your leader? Vitalik was clearly flustered by the question. Must listen to this! And look at the body language of Gavin Wood and the other guy on the podium.
"I am 99.999% certain this is bug free." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cahj4WJtp20&feature=youtu.be&t=42m52s The Naive hubris is very dangerous within Vitalik. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Zer0Sum on June 19, 2016, 06:55:44 PM Nothing to do with US laws. Hahaha hahaha, God you're funny. Best joke I've heard all day. Look up US Securities treaties Ethereum is based primarily in North America and EU... So I would guess 25-50% of DAO investors would be US citizens. This places events squarely in the jurisdiction of US authorities. VB is likely in the clear... But Stephan Tual and the Slock.it group are certainly guilty of multiple violations including fraud... They invented and coded the DAO in order to finance their pet projects with free $$$... And Slock.it specifically promoted the fact that investors could have their ETH refunded at par (no risk)... While hiding the fact that an ETH refund was VERY technically difficult... and would take at least 7 weeks (high risk). Anyway, PoW means the miners decide... And EthPool miners are voting 99.5% in favor of a "soft fork" to freeze DAO funds. http://ethpool.org/stats/votes No Chinese miners that launder money for a fee here... No patented Bitcoin-style leadership paralysis that has mired BTC for 2.5 years below the pre-Gox high. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 19, 2016, 07:38:22 PM Anyway, PoW means the miners decide... And EthPool miners are voting 99.5% in favor of a "soft fork" to freeze DAO funds. http://ethpool.org/stats/votes Apologies for attacking you about your choice of supporting the soft fork. I edited my message to remove the offending part (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1516021.msg15282440#msg15282440). I support the free market and the people must decide what they want. Here is my response to your vote for the soft fork: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1518508.msg15283083#msg15283083 Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: NattyLiteCoin on June 19, 2016, 08:03:43 PM LOL @ Vitalik in jail: ETHER $1B market cap, creator traded for pack of cigarettes.
He's not going to jail. I don't believe he'd intentionally code a backdoor. He's a scientist, not a con artist. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 19, 2016, 08:13:49 PM LOL @ Vitalik in jail: ETHER $1B market cap, creator traded for pack of cigarettes. He's not going to jail. I don't believe he'd intentionally code a backdoor. He's a scientist, not a con artist. Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding, please note the subject of the thread is a question, not a position. I also don't think Vitalik was scamming. However, I do think he got himself into a quagmire of his own making, because we all warned him that Turing-complete block chain scripts are dangerous and he chose to ignore us (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517223.msg15282625#msg15282625). I even warned his co-founder (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1496403.msg15259868#msg15259868) before they launched Ethereum. And Ethereum has never been upfront about the risks in their technology. They've pushed hype without any sobering reality for balance. That is why there are so many n00bs who did not do due diligence on The DAO. And please note what I wrote earlier: It is too fast if we judge vitalik going to end in jail, because he is just a part of developer ethereum. And we are don't have any proof that vitalik has taken the coins. I've morphed my understanding to threats being more civil lawsuits and not securities regulation with potential criminal liability, although the former can apparently in some cases drive the latter (i.e. the SEC feels compelled to come in because of the public outrage, which the attorney mentioned early in that linked video). Now that we have a real attorney on camera, you all can stop thinking I am full of bullshit. Vindicated! Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: leopard2 on June 19, 2016, 08:17:59 PM Vitalik did nothing wrong, ETH is not at fault ::)
The DAO creators are at fault. Especially when they publicly posted a warning about this recursive vulnerability a few days ago. Such stupidity, wow. Why, they should have implemented a fucking soft fork 7 days ago, a preventive one, freezing all affected projects until further notice. Instead of posting it in a blog. They have a security guy on board but maybe he was on vacation? Read this an weep: https://blog.slock.it/no-dao-funds-at-risk-following-the-ethereum-smart-contract-recursive-call-bug-discovery-29f482d348b#.djds4v5i4 https://blog.slock.it/announcing-dao-framework-1-1-35249e2e001#.377vb829l Slock.it, however, is in Germany and Germany does not extradite their citizens. And as long as no criminal intent is proven, no one will go to jail in Germany for something like this. So, no - they will not go to jail, I think. Ethereum is a Swiss company. Just for the sake of completeness, both German and Swiss contract law clearly state this: as long as the attacker did not act in good faith (and he certainly did not!!!) he cannot legally own the funds. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 19, 2016, 08:25:48 PM Ethereum is a Swiss company. Just for the sake of completeness, both German and Swiss contract law clearly state this: as long as the attacker did not act in good faith (and he certainly did not!!!) he cannot legally own the funds. You have to prove he didn't act in good faith. The attacker is attempting to show that Vitalik and "accomplices" are acting in bad faith. Listen to the video I posted where the attorney Pamela explains it. Also I believe Swiss & German contract law (as you stated it) is roughly consistent with common law in common law countries as the attorney Pamela in the videos explained. The DAO did not have any TOS that specified jurisdiction. Thus the attacker can choose which ever jurisdiction he wants. Ditto the plaintiffs that lost money due to the incident, if they don't fork. So your point may be irrelevant for any civil lawsuits. But for criminal liability, you are probably correct (and I presume Vitalik is protected by a Swiss corporation shielding him). It will be interesting to see what the attacker's next move is. I believe MP is a Bitcoin maximalist and I expect him to not give up. I expect he has a counter move. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: NattyLiteCoin on June 19, 2016, 08:38:45 PM Jah mon. I don't think you're pointing fingers at Vitalik, that was not my intent. Your posts have been refreshing over the last week or two from the babble of this forum. Even though I'm not as locked in as you from the tech side, I feel ya. Bottom line, is when crypto becomes a fucking company it's juxtaposed to its intent. It won't work.
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 20, 2016, 12:36:34 AM Can't blame this solely on Tual and The DAO:
... There are no safety mechanisms built into the SOLIDARITY. There was no attempt to do this incrementally. They released Turing-complete scripting into the wild knowing full well that it must blow up. Very, very unprofessional. We can't blame this just on The DAO. The root cause starts with Vitalik and his delusions. Casper was another delusion that we knew would fail. How many months and $millions did they waste on that. In fact, the flaw is in SOLIDARITY: A fundamental flaw in Solidity If you use the call construct in Solidity on external contracts, and if you have any externally-callable functions in your own contract that modify state, you cannot assume anything about the state of your contract after the external call is executed. Quote from: Phil Agreed, the call construct is OK if you know what code is running. If you don’t though, as I said you can make no assumptions about your program’s state or control flow when that call completes. Quote from: Corbin And this is why I’m shocked that, of the concepts borrowed from the object-capability literature, Ethereum borrowed smart contracts but did not follow up with capability-safe language and VM design. And I remember that his was a flaw that I had realized (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1505886.msg15285734#msg15285734) in 2014 would be in SOLIDARITY when I read they would support contracts calling other contracts. I knew over 2 years ago that this exploit would be possible. Follow-up: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1505886.msg15250689#msg15250689 Also note the current hack of The DAO is a reason I'd probably not prefer to build anything on Ethereum. I don't trust the code (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1515817.msg15252187#msg15252187) of those inexperienced, wide-eyed youngsters. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 20, 2016, 03:35:20 AM I don't know why this guy made a new thread instead of adding to one we already created:
Swiss Contract law requires: 1) Consent of the parties: Acceptance by both parties 2) No Negative elements: Impossibility and Illegality (neither of these apply) 3) Conclusion of contract by representatives: Both parties accepted the contract on their own behalf or are valid representatives of the contractual party. 4) Elements of Interpretation: Does not include Fraud, Duress, etc... 5) Breach of Contract: Damages as a general remedy for a breach. :The general rule is that a party to a contract not performing it correctly, as it is written, must pay damages compensating the failure of performance or its imperfections. There is no requirement of consideration. Most of the wording in Swiss contract law is written to protect the party agreeing to the contract, not the entity that writes the contract, for obvious reasons. The irony in all this is that Vitalik is the one, by Swiss law, that could be sued for breach of contract. You can't write an unprofitable smart contract, then turn around and claim theft when someone takes the other end of the contract and takes all your money. Think about how ridiculous that sounds. Any attempt to undo or rewrite the contract is a breach of contract by Swiss law. The whole idea of a smart contract is that it inherently holds all of the requirements of a legal contract, provides security superior to traditional contract law, and once entered, it cannot be undone. All of these characteristics of a smart contract have been espoused by Vitalik himself and his own words will be used against him when he is sued in court. And then we have r0ach who is too high pride to post in any of my threads: No problem, we already have that covered: http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1394842.0 Remember r0ach wrote this: You are arguing for microtransactions when it's impossible to have microtransactions on a blockchain. Okay guys. Enjoy it while you can. I coming whether you like it or not. I tried to find the posts where r0ach was stalking me in other threads and gloating about Bitcoin being up to $600, but appears he (or the mods) wisely deleted those posts containing his snide/flippant remarks. Damn, I should have quoted them for posterity. Any way, I found this plagiarism and notice the dates of the two posts... It is possible that Bitcoin has U bottomed at $150 and will meander up to $1200 over the next several months. The thing I've always hated about your insistence on trying to push this Armstrong character is that you basically imply we live in a deterministic universe... Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: bathrobehero on June 20, 2016, 05:54:09 AM Except Vitalik has nothing to do with US laws (fortunately). So that's going to save his ass? Good lord ;D I've invested on DAOs too but I definitely don't put all my life savings there. we all know crypto isn't the whole thing in this world. And i guess those investors who deposit millions thinking they'd earn millions as well are just as noobs as they are. so they shouldnt try to find anyone to blame. they've been warned a lot of times in this forum. All I'm saying is that if there's a crypto which must bend to US laws then it's already a failure because it's already centralized. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: parmatiya on June 20, 2016, 08:02:43 AM I think it will be soft forked at least. So the attacker can sue every miner in the world and put them into jail.
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: GreenBits on June 20, 2016, 08:20:54 AM If the "attacker" exposes him/herself and he/she is in the US as he said in the open letter, I think he could be sent to prison for the hacking with bad intent. I think a decent lawyer could fight that, as the code was supposed to be "golden", this is a feature ;D now, despite the bug being openly disclosed, I still think the SEC might have something to say about that massive short. They will poke around at least. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: hv_ on June 20, 2016, 08:38:03 AM Can't blame this solely on Tual and The DAO: ... There are no safety mechanisms built into the SOLIDARITY. There was no attempt to do this incrementally. They released Turing-complete scripting into the wild knowing full well that it must blow up. Very, very unprofessional. We can't blame this just on The DAO. The root cause starts with Vitalik and his delusions. Casper was another delusion that we knew would fail. How many months and $millions did they waste on that. In fact, the flaw is in SOLIDARITY: A fundamental flaw in Solidity If you use the call construct in Solidity on external contracts, and if you have any externally-callable functions in your own contract that modify state, you cannot assume anything about the state of your contract after the external call is executed. Quote from: Phil Agreed, the call construct is OK if you know what code is running. If you don’t though, as I said you can make no assumptions about your program’s state or control flow when that call completes. Quote from: Corbin And this is why I’m shocked that, of the concepts borrowed from the object-capability literature, Ethereum borrowed smart contracts but did not follow up with capability-safe language and VM design. And I remember that his was a flaw that I had realized (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1505886.msg15285734#msg15285734) in 2014 would be in SOLIDARITY when I read they would support contracts calling other contracts. I knew over 2 years ago that this exploit would be possible. Follow-up: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1505886.msg15250689#msg15250689 Also note the current hack of The DAO is a reason I'd probably not prefer to build anything on Ethereum. I don't trust the code (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1515817.msg15252187#msg15252187) of those inexperienced, wide-eyed youngsters. .. and I'm pretty sure it's also part in the Paradox thread as well... at least plenty hints and warnings. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 20, 2016, 12:37:25 PM .. and I'm pretty sure it's also part in the Paradox thread as well... at least plenty hints and warnings. Of course, because I wrote that Ethereum Paradox thread. I mean I was the one instigating the deeper technical points. Perceptions may vary, but I am aware of who knew what and when because I understood the technical discussion in real-time at that time. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 21, 2016, 03:45:09 AM The deep legal quagmire Vitalik has dug:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4os7l5/the_big_thedao_heist_faq/d4hbbjm The fraud of The DAO: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1520678.msg15300466#msg15300466 Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: parmatiya on June 22, 2016, 06:48:20 AM The deep legal quagmire Vitalik has dug: https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4os7l5/the_big_thedao_heist_faq/d4hbbjm The fraud of The DAO: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1520678.msg15300466#msg15300466 There is flaw in the DAO, but that is not an excuse to steal the funds and the thief is trying to convince the miners to help him to steal. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on June 22, 2016, 09:27:07 PM The deep legal quagmire Vitalik has dug: https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4os7l5/the_big_thedao_heist_faq/d4hbbjm The fraud of The DAO: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1520678.msg15300466#msg15300466 There is flaw in the DAO, but that is not an excuse to steal the funds and the thief is trying to convince the miners to help him to steal. The ideological argument is secondary to the fact that Ethereum was inescapably fucked from the day they launched: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1523492.0 Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: parmatiya on June 27, 2016, 10:50:30 AM The deep legal quagmire Vitalik has dug: https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4os7l5/the_big_thedao_heist_faq/d4hbbjm The fraud of The DAO: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1520678.msg15300466#msg15300466 There is flaw in the DAO, but that is not an excuse to steal the funds and the thief is trying to convince the miners to help him to steal. The ideological argument is secondary to the fact that Ethereum was inescapably fucked from the day they launched: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1523492.0 It was fucked, but it has recovered from the hacking problem. The hacker did not get anything and the Ethereum is getting stronger. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: chryspano on June 27, 2016, 12:29:45 PM The hacker did not get anything... LOL If you think he was after money then yes, he probably didn't get much, but my impresion is that his main intent was to create a mess in Ethereum/DAO and he gloriously succeded. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: mandica on June 29, 2016, 05:48:13 PM The hacker did not get anything... LOL If you think he was after money then yes, he probably didn't get much, but my impresion is that his main intent was to create a mess in Ethereum/DAO and he gloriously succeded. That was a very big mass. Ethereeum did not suffer similar problem in the last two years. So it is good to have some experience. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: TrueAnon on June 29, 2016, 07:58:39 PM Fuck DAO and ETH
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: paratox on June 30, 2016, 12:19:30 PM (A conspiracy theory, so please don't take it too seriously. Just want to offer another perspective on the matter. I don't really know if the Ethereum concept is flawed , or if this kind of hardfork can really trigger a chain reaction that could lead to the self destruction of Ethereum)
It could be possible, that "TheDAO attack" was/is an inside job. Maybe ETH devs/foundation realized that the concept of Ethereum is flawed and they planned this whole mess including the proposed hardfork to initiate the death of Ethereum. Why would they do it? Considering how much effort they put into hyping this concept as the holy grail of blockchains with a great future to investors... it got too big to just say "Hey community, we realized that our idea was not well thought out, we are gonna stop developing because we believe that we can't fix it in a way that doesn't break the fundamental premise of Ethereum's concept (decentralized , autonomous, immutable smart contracts, where the code is the law without interference from third parties and without the possibility of fraud or censorship). If they do this, they would get a lot of shit from investors :" But why did you hype this concept so much, when you didn't even knew if it could work the way you say it would? Isn't that deceptive? Did you lie to us to get our money or what?" There may also be a other negative consequences, like getting into troubles with the law. With the hardfork they may be trying to shift the responsibility for the destruction of Ethereum to the community. So when the project fails, they can say "It wasn't really our fault, the community decided to do this, they are responsible for the hardfork. Their reputation would be destroyed either way, but they may doge some of the negative consequences, especially concerning the law. Please remember, this is just speculation, a thought that crossed my mind during this whole debacle. I am not saying that I believe this to be true, only that it could be possible explanation for what is happening right now. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Storm_Guardian_N7 on June 30, 2016, 01:34:10 PM The DAO was a blessing in disguise. It exposed the vulnerabilities within Ethereum so greatly that no amount of hype could cover it up. But it also taught a lot of trading lessons to a lot of people that if they're willing to learn will strengthen their investment/speculation practices. While some people lost 'all' of their capital, the truth is. They probably only lost 1/2 of it at this point, could have been less if they folded the moment they saw a 20% market decrease on an established coin.
They can still sell their coins at a loss on the market, and make that back in less time than it takes for Ethereum and the DAO to get itself together. With the profit they make selling out, and putting only a select portion of gains back in (that is if they still want to) they could ride the wave 'if there is another wave' then if there is a wave, EXIT immediately back into BTC and double your profits. That's how I work. Altcoins are just a way to double my $USD so that I can double my capital with BTC and then back into a more stable currency that I can use for everyday transactions. But after this event I am toning it down a bit and will probably be sticking to just BTC, though altcoins can help add a few $$s to my portfolio so it's nice if viewed as something on the side but not as the main dish. In any case I like altcoins because they give people with less capital a less volatile chance to explore how it works and offer innovation. It's a great place to train new speculators and practice new concepts, but even an altcoin on it's finest day will have a lot of work to be able to match Bitcoins ability to rise or drop by $50 - $100. Plus there are more ways to double your money with BTC than there are ways to do the same with altcoins. You can make $11k - $100k in a year with altcoins, you can do that in a month with BTC if you know what you're doing and have the capital. On a Separate Note: I also tend to find this whole DAO thing suspicious. There are too many red flags. The language of the contract saying, "The law is the code and the code is always right", any programmer knows that was a problem waiting to happen. The Ethereum team hyping it up while at the same time trying to distance themselves legally from it at the same time. I remember thinking if this thing is as legit as they say why are they not willing to be accountable for their actions. And the slock.it team was suspicious too. Their unapologetic nature and how they seem unphased by all the anger targeted at them, and won't issue an apology adds to my suspicions. Ethereum backing this beast gave it credibility but they're only human and humans are flawed. When there is hype, ignore what the people are saying, read the contract and trust your own gut. Something else got me, the language of the contract itself and the way it was designed almost feels deliberate even though they say otherwise. I read somewhere that the slock.it team had planned to I don't like openly speaking about my conspiracy theories but it seems suspicious. Either people were just negligible...or they are truly intelligent to know exactly what they're doing right now...don't like conspiracies, but this did leave a nasty taste in my mouth due to so many red flags and now just problem after problem with this thing. Idk. Maybe it was just their trust in a code that is still in development that got them there, their blind faith in their own work and the 'ego' and lack of humility with the slock.it team but that's just me. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: cabron on June 30, 2016, 01:46:00 PM ^ ain't that a FUD? ;D can't believe you exert effort writing such just to FUD around. you could have just shout "SCAM"
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Storm_Guardian_N7 on June 30, 2016, 02:00:57 PM I don't know if I believe it is a scam. It's just speculation at this point.
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: BitUsher on June 30, 2016, 03:46:15 PM Well... this is embarrassing. May 9th article from Vitalik , and now he pivots 180 degrees.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmMKlhHUYAAtMY5.jpg No credibility at all, and this could lead to some litigation from those against the HF! Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Kewatia on June 30, 2016, 04:06:57 PM Vitalik is still young. He is still learning. But it is better not with all my money in stake. I wish the Etereum be more robust in the future.
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Azael on June 30, 2016, 04:32:05 PM I don't think so. They can just travel between countries as they please.
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: mandica on July 01, 2016, 09:34:29 AM I don't think so. They can just travel between countries as they please. They must have a permanent address that you can send the law enforcement to. But I am more interested in getting the hacker to the prison. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Kewatia on July 01, 2016, 05:00:24 PM I don't know if I believe it is a scam. It's just speculation at this point. I believe it would have been considered on unlicenced security in his home country. That's why he and the foundation moved to Switzerland in the first place. I'm eager to see how the Swiss feel about all this. But the Ethereum is a money of internet or internet of money, how can the Swiss regulate that? Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: haendehochueberfall on July 01, 2016, 05:42:57 PM I think it will be soft forked at least. So the attacker can sue every miner in the world and put them into jail. these guys aren't capable to code the softfork up. Total amateurs. Not in control of their own "invention". Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Kewatia on July 02, 2016, 10:17:15 AM I think it will be soft forked at least. So the attacker can sue every miner in the world and put them into jail. these guys aren't capable to code the softfork up. Total amateurs. Not in control of their own "invention". Can anybody support the Ethereum community to help programming the soft fork? Without it, Ethereum is dead. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: benthach on July 02, 2016, 12:10:18 PM Looks to me that they got themselves in deep legal shit... a) The terms and conditions of the particular smart contract supersedes hundreds of years of US legal contract law, not! Directly or indirectly, this has been fudded all over the internet. 100% of the legal consensus is that in the US, US contract law is the guiding agent. Who has jurisdiction is another matter, but in whatever jurisdiction, that jurisdiction's legal system is the controlling entity. You are not waving away the US court system with words written in magic pixie dust on a piece of paper. b) It''s clear that the Ethereum foundation immediately needs to consult with legal experts in the areas of contract law and security and exchange law in order to clarify in their talks what exactly they can and cannot claim/promise. CEO's never say anything for public attribution without clearing it with legal. Absolutely! Why do they fail if they fork? Seems to me the fanboys who buy anything that sounds good, don't really care about whether it is decentralized, because we were writing for months in the Ethereum Paradox thread that Casper would be moving it towards centralization. They only believe what they want to believe. So why would recovering the funds for the fanboys be worse than not from the perspective of sustaining Ethereum? They can state that the rules weren't well elucidated and that in the future, all users must understand that contracts are not warranted to perform as advertised. Tual has potentially a big problem if they didn't do adequate disclosure. This can end up in lawsuits and he can end up prosecuted under securities regulations. If they did make very clear and conspicuous disclosure about risks, then they definitely shouldn't fork because no one will ever again know what the rules are (as they will be open to change at-will). All about fungibility and centralization. It sucks, and I don't think anyone could honestly argue that the attacker deserves the coins, but intervening would be disastrous to the long term prospects of ETH. There's plenty of precedent to suggest that intervention like this would be a death sentence. The "fanboys" wouldn't care, but as far as long term adoption and all that goes, you're really shooting yourself in the foot. Those in it for the quick money are no doubt pissed off, but anyone in it for the long haul should be staunchly against a fork. I think the "attacker" deserves the funds, because and assuming he did nothing illegal (but I am not even sure if he didn't violate some obscure law). But we are discussing about perceptions of what the risks are. Please re-read my prior post as I added to it. For me, it hinges on whether they had adequately explained/disclosed the risks to the DAO and ETH investors. I suspect not (otherwise why $168m invested[1]). Thus I argue they can fork and then make the conspicuous and repeated disclosure so that it is clear they will be consistent from here on. And they pretty much have to fork in that case, else they throw themselves under the legal liability bus (but due to the decline in the ETH price they are fucked legally no matter what they do). As for the threats of lawsuits from the "attacker", these can be ignored because they can claim that the majority has the Byzantine power to fork and everyone who uses CC knows that. Or they can take the stance that all CC investors should know the risks and that they are the owners, because it is decentralized. In that case, they shouldn't fork, but I think they will lose this argument in court perhaps. The DAO investors can file a class action lawsuit for example (which btw supercedes every international jurisdiction!) and claim to be n00bs who trusted Vitalik and Tual their idols. I believe this clusterfuck is going to lead to securities regulation of CC. :'( Vitalik is growing up very fast I think right about now. [1] Where are the statements about how participants could lose everything if there is a bug? They should have scared away some of the money. I read 18,000 investors for $168 million, so several $1000s each. Luckily there is Common law. Contracts are all about consent; abusing a gap/hole/vulnerability in a contract is obviously non-consentual and thus illegal. Without such a legal framework, no contract in the world could exist. No contract is perfect. Agreed. My father specializes in contract law, graduated top of his class at L.S.U. and was former West Coast Division Attorney for Exxon. I once was fretting over the fine print of a contract for a $205,000 license I sold for CoolPage in 2001, and he advised to not kill the contract negotiations because he said the court would not enforce a one-sided contract. So contract law interprets what is the intent, not just what is written in the contract. Do you mean the intent of the DAO is not to enrich somebody by $50 million by exploiting a hole in the coding? No. leopard2 and I mean that the intent of the DAO contract is roughly not to allow 1 user take all the value out without consensus voting. And contract law will likely Edit: but note it is not clear whether the law could enforce it (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517223.msg15271289#msg15271289). unless you're dumb enough to gave them free money, other than that no one care about them. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: parmatiya on July 04, 2016, 01:36:50 PM Looks to me that they got themselves in deep legal shit... a) The terms and conditions of the particular smart contract supersedes hundreds of years of US legal contract law, not! Directly or indirectly, this has been fudded all over the internet. 100% of the legal consensus is that in the US, US contract law is the guiding agent. Who has jurisdiction is another matter, but in whatever jurisdiction, that jurisdiction's legal system is the controlling entity. You are not waving away the US court system with words written in magic pixie dust on a piece of paper. b) It''s clear that the Ethereum foundation immediately needs to consult with legal experts in the areas of contract law and security and exchange law in order to clarify in their talks what exactly they can and cannot claim/promise. CEO's never say anything for public attribution without clearing it with legal. Absolutely! Why do they fail if they fork? Seems to me the fanboys who buy anything that sounds good, don't really care about whether it is decentralized, because we were writing for months in the Ethereum Paradox thread that Casper would be moving it towards centralization. They only believe what they want to believe. So why would recovering the funds for the fanboys be worse than not from the perspective of sustaining Ethereum? They can state that the rules weren't well elucidated and that in the future, all users must understand that contracts are not warranted to perform as advertised. Tual has potentially a big problem if they didn't do adequate disclosure. This can end up in lawsuits and he can end up prosecuted under securities regulations. If they did make very clear and conspicuous disclosure about risks, then they definitely shouldn't fork because no one will ever again know what the rules are (as they will be open to change at-will). All about fungibility and centralization. It sucks, and I don't think anyone could honestly argue that the attacker deserves the coins, but intervening would be disastrous to the long term prospects of ETH. There's plenty of precedent to suggest that intervention like this would be a death sentence. The "fanboys" wouldn't care, but as far as long term adoption and all that goes, you're really shooting yourself in the foot. Those in it for the quick money are no doubt pissed off, but anyone in it for the long haul should be staunchly against a fork. I think the "attacker" deserves the funds, because and assuming he did nothing illegal (but I am not even sure if he didn't violate some obscure law). But we are discussing about perceptions of what the risks are. Please re-read my prior post as I added to it. For me, it hinges on whether they had adequately explained/disclosed the risks to the DAO and ETH investors. I suspect not (otherwise why $168m invested[1]). Thus I argue they can fork and then make the conspicuous and repeated disclosure so that it is clear they will be consistent from here on. And they pretty much have to fork in that case, else they throw themselves under the legal liability bus (but due to the decline in the ETH price they are fucked legally no matter what they do). As for the threats of lawsuits from the "attacker", these can be ignored because they can claim that the majority has the Byzantine power to fork and everyone who uses CC knows that. Or they can take the stance that all CC investors should know the risks and that they are the owners, because it is decentralized. In that case, they shouldn't fork, but I think they will lose this argument in court perhaps. The DAO investors can file a class action lawsuit for example (which btw supercedes every international jurisdiction!) and claim to be n00bs who trusted Vitalik and Tual their idols. I believe this clusterfuck is going to lead to securities regulation of CC. :'( Vitalik is growing up very fast I think right about now. [1] Where are the statements about how participants could lose everything if there is a bug? They should have scared away some of the money. I read 18,000 investors for $168 million, so several $1000s each. Luckily there is Common law. Contracts are all about consent; abusing a gap/hole/vulnerability in a contract is obviously non-consentual and thus illegal. Without such a legal framework, no contract in the world could exist. No contract is perfect. Agreed. My father specializes in contract law, graduated top of his class at L.S.U. and was former West Coast Division Attorney for Exxon. I once was fretting over the fine print of a contract for a $205,000 license I sold for CoolPage in 2001, and he advised to not kill the contract negotiations because he said the court would not enforce a one-sided contract. So contract law interprets what is the intent, not just what is written in the contract. Do you mean the intent of the DAO is not to enrich somebody by $50 million by exploiting a hole in the coding? No. leopard2 and I mean that the intent of the DAO contract is roughly not to allow 1 user take all the value out without consensus voting. And contract law will likely Edit: but note it is not clear whether the law could enforce it (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517223.msg15271289#msg15271289). unless you're dumb enough to gave them free money, other than that no one care about them. I might buy some miners to do support the fork which will get back the money from the hackers in the future. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Kewatia on July 04, 2016, 04:58:09 PM I might buy some miners to do support the fork which will get back the money from the hackers in the future. It might be too late now. You need a big farm to influence the whole hashing rate. It is too high now. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: mandica on July 04, 2016, 07:04:55 PM Do you think the owner of the 3.6 million Ethereum will invest some money on farms to save his 3.6 million?
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Kewatia on July 05, 2016, 04:47:52 PM Do you think the owner of the 3.6 million Ethereum will invest some money on farms to save his 3.6 million? I heard he was going to sign some smart contract with some miners. But I am afraid the miners might think he will defraud them. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: mandica on July 05, 2016, 06:31:42 PM Do you think the owner of the 3.6 million Ethereum will invest some money on farms to save his 3.6 million? I heard he was going to sign some smart contract with some miners. But I am afraid the miners might think he will defraud them. I will never believe a hacker or a thief who stole $60 million from other people. That is a punishable crime. Where is the FBI? Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: raphma on July 05, 2016, 10:24:42 PM Except Vitalik has nothing to do with US laws (fortunately). i was thinking the same... what the f*ck US laws have to do with eth? but then i remember... its US. they dont need a reason. ---- right now, to me, the only law applied to eth is : short it! shorting eth is making me rich. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Kewatia on July 06, 2016, 08:48:54 AM Except Vitalik has nothing to do with US laws (fortunately). i was thinking the same... what the f*ck US laws have to do with eth? but then i remember... its US. they dont need a reason. ---- right now, to me, the only law applied to eth is : short it! shorting eth is making me rich. But the US law enforcer arrested the operator of the Silk Road. If the DAO has defraud the US citizen, can he also be arrested? Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: reb0rn21 on July 07, 2016, 11:56:46 PM Do you think the owner of the 3.6 million Ethereum will invest some money on farms to save his 3.6 million? I heard he was going to sign some smart contract with some miners. But I am afraid the miners might think he will defraud them. I will never believe a hacker or a thief who stole $60 million from other people. That is a punishable crime. Where is the FBI? Has there been any hack attack??? or stupid sheeps just signed bad deal and lost all!? If you sign a bad deal in a court which you should have read, would you call the other party a thief for your stupidity Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: parmatiya on July 09, 2016, 01:45:43 PM Do you think the owner of the 3.6 million Ethereum will invest some money on farms to save his 3.6 million? I heard he was going to sign some smart contract with some miners. But I am afraid the miners might think he will defraud them. I will never believe a hacker or a thief who stole $60 million from other people. That is a punishable crime. Where is the FBI? Has there been any hack attack??? or stupid sheeps just signed bad deal and lost all!? If you sign a bad deal in a court which you should have read, would you call the other party a thief for your stupidity The court of law will not agree with what you said. I read some where that the contract should be fair. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: mandica on July 09, 2016, 07:14:29 PM Do you think the owner of the 3.6 million Ethereum will invest some money on farms to save his 3.6 million? I heard he was going to sign some smart contract with some miners. But I am afraid the miners might think he will defraud them. I will never believe a hacker or a thief who stole $60 million from other people. That is a punishable crime. Where is the FBI? Has there been any hack attack??? or stupid sheeps just signed bad deal and lost all!? If you sign a bad deal in a court which you should have read, would you call the other party a thief for your stupidity The court of law will not agree with what you said. I read some where that the contract should be fair. I am more interested in get the hacker into jail. The person or group stole $60 million, that is a lot of money. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: klbax381 on July 09, 2016, 07:51:27 PM Quote I am more interested in get the hacker into jail. The person or group stole $60 million, that is a lot of money. Hacker havent stole money $60mil. He stole ether - from the laws point of view it's a digital shit.Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Hueristic on July 09, 2016, 08:00:20 PM The fund holder stole nothing, he entered into a valid contract and profited. It is not fair but life is not fair. Same conversation too many threads.
The Eth TOKEN is dead on HF. Learn from history do not repeat it. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Kewatia on July 11, 2016, 03:24:59 PM Quote I am more interested in get the hacker into jail. The person or group stole $60 million, that is a lot of money. Hacker havent stole money $60mil. He stole ether - from the laws point of view it's a digital shit.Any way, the hacker will not get any the $60 million used to be in his possession. I wonder if he will sue the miners. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Minecache on July 11, 2016, 04:16:43 PM The fund holder stole nothing, he entered into a valid contract and profited. It is not fair but life is not fair. Same conversation too many threads. Yes he did. If he's so sure he didn't steal anything then where is he? Why not reveal himself?The Eth TOKEN is dead on HF. Learn from history do not repeat it. Oh yes braise he knows he exploited the code to steal. And HFs happen all the time. So quit fudding. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Hueristic on July 11, 2016, 04:53:29 PM The fund holder stole nothing, he entered into a valid contract and profited. It is not fair but life is not fair. Same conversation too many threads. Yes he did. If he's so sure he didn't steal anything then where is he? Why not reveal himself?The Eth TOKEN is dead on HF. Learn from history do not repeat it. Oh yes braise he knows he exploited the code to steal. And HFs happen all the time. So quit fudding. LOL, "no he didn't", Great argument! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkg58z6Inkc Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: mandica on July 13, 2016, 07:52:23 AM The fund holder stole nothing, he entered into a valid contract and profited. It is not fair but life is not fair. Same conversation too many threads. Yes he did. If he's so sure he didn't steal anything then where is he? Why not reveal himself?The Eth TOKEN is dead on HF. Learn from history do not repeat it. Oh yes braise he knows he exploited the code to steal. And HFs happen all the time. So quit fudding. I think so. There is nothing wrong with hard fork. I think the hard fork happened several time in the Ethereum history. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: TheRedDevil on July 13, 2016, 12:06:37 PM The fund holder stole nothing, he entered into a valid contract and profited. It is not fair but life is not fair. Same conversation too many threads. Yes he did. If he's so sure he didn't steal anything then where is he? Why not reveal himself?The Eth TOKEN is dead on HF. Learn from history do not repeat it. Oh yes braise he knows he exploited the code to steal. And HFs happen all the time. So quit fudding. I think so. There is nothing wrong with hard fork. I think the hard fork happened several time in the Ethereum history. Sorry, HF happened in ETH several times? Can you validate that statement please? Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Kewatia on July 13, 2016, 03:37:19 PM The fund holder stole nothing, he entered into a valid contract and profited. It is not fair but life is not fair. Same conversation too many threads. Yes he did. If he's so sure he didn't steal anything then where is he? Why not reveal himself?The Eth TOKEN is dead on HF. Learn from history do not repeat it. Oh yes braise he knows he exploited the code to steal. And HFs happen all the time. So quit fudding. I think so. There is nothing wrong with hard fork. I think the hard fork happened several time in the Ethereum history. Sorry, HF happened in ETH several times? Can you validate that statement please? Hard fork happened when the Frontier was changed to Homestead. It will happen again when PoW change to PoS. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: GreenBits on July 13, 2016, 03:47:34 PM There is very little chance of them going to jail if this was truly an oversight. Only way I see jail time is if they find this way an inside iob, which is still on the table IMO. They will, however, may deal with some civil suitage after folks get their money back, and start feeling litigious.
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Kewatia on July 14, 2016, 05:48:07 PM There is very little chance of them going to jail if this was truly an oversight. Only way I see jail time is if they find this way an inside iob, which is still on the table IMO. They will, however, may deal with some civil suitage after folks get their money back, and start feeling litigious. What kind civil case can they be involved. Is it the responsibility the the US police to find the hacker if its citizen lost money? Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on July 14, 2016, 11:57:50 PM Being a key player in pyramid schemes. Hmmm.... somewhat legally risky perhaps to not release full prospectus of your analysis when you've been a public figure in crypto....
Smooth seems to have found a way to game the system Look at his balance https://steemit.com/@smooth/transfers He already owns $ 5 Millions at today's market price. Insane. He acquired nearly 1% back during the "sneaky mine" phase. You can understand why he wasn't willing to attack this coin the way he normally attacks pump and dump scams. That $millions bought his "I am not omniscient about the potential future not being a disaster" attitude. Btw, smooth is cashing out roughly $50,000 per week. (assuming your $5m valuation of his SP is correct) Is that a meritocracy ??? You can see why he would have an incentive to not speak about how it will be a disaster for those who invest in SP now (requires a 2 year lock up cashed out over 104 weeks), while he is cashing out every week. Chaching. Fools please buy Steemit and give your money to smooth. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: GreenBits on July 15, 2016, 01:38:28 AM There is very little chance of them going to jail if this was truly an oversight. Only way I see jail time is if they find this way an inside iob, which is still on the table IMO. They will, however, may deal with some civil suitage after folks get their money back, and start feeling litigious. What kind civil case can they be involved. Is it the responsibility the the US police to find the hacker if its citizen lost money? The code was promised to be without fault. This isn't a hack as much as a feature legally. Meanwhile, a litigant can easily prove that a) they lost value, b) through no fault of their own, due to c) the negligence of the product/service Creator. That sounds like a lawsuit to me, but meh, I didn't waste my money on this so I don't have a dog in the fight. But if I did, I would sue the dev team for negligence, for the above mentioned reasons. Suffice it to say it simply hasn't happened yet. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: BitUsher on July 15, 2016, 03:07:22 PM There are going to be some serious legal concerns with the ETH foundation and exchanges who decide to devalue or steal users funds -
A decision with a 3.6% voting turnout? http://carbonvote.com/ Kraken's policy is to steal users funds on minority chain. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnZMt3FWcAAG78z.jpg Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: shyliar on July 15, 2016, 03:10:37 PM There is very little chance of them going to jail if this was truly an oversight. Only way I see jail time is if they find this way an inside iob, which is still on the table IMO. They will, however, may deal with some civil suitage after folks get their money back, and start feeling litigious. What kind civil case can they be involved. Is it the responsibility the the US police to find the hacker if its citizen lost money? The code was promised to be without fault. This isn't a hack as much as a feature legally. Meanwhile, a litigant can easily prove that a) they lost value, b) through no fault of their own, due to c) the negligence of the product/service Creator. That sounds like a lawsuit to me, but meh, I didn't waste my money on this so I don't have a dog in the fight. But if I did, I would sue the dev team for negligence, for the above mentioned reasons. Suffice it to say it simply hasn't happened yet. Definitely lawsuits are a likely possibility. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: TravelsAsia on July 15, 2016, 04:15:52 PM Being a key player in pyramid schemes. Hmmm.... somewhat legally risky perhaps to not release full prospectus of your analysis when you've been a public figure in crypto.... Smooth seems to have found a way to game the system Look at his balance https://steemit.com/@smooth/transfers He already owns $ 5 Millions at today's market price. Insane. He acquired nearly 1% back during the "sneaky mine" phase. You can understand why he wasn't willing to attack this coin the way he normally attacks pump and dump scams. That $millions bought his "I am not omniscient about the potential future not being a disaster" attitude. Btw, smooth is cashing out roughly $50,000 per week. (assuming your $5m valuation of his SP is correct) Is that a meritocracy ??? You can see why he would have an incentive to not speak about how it will be a disaster for those who invest in SP now (requires a 2 year lock up cashed out over 104 weeks), while he is cashing out every week. Chaching. Fools please buy Steemit and give your money to smooth. He's a multi-millionaire, you are complaining on a messageboard that's heavily dominated by social awkwardness and nerd rage. I think he took a better path. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Hueristic on July 15, 2016, 04:17:42 PM There are going to be some serious legal concerns with the ETH foundation and exchanges who decide to devalue or steal users funds - A decision with a 3.6% voting turnout? http://carbonvote.com/ Kraken's policy is to steal users funds on minority chain. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnZMt3FWcAAG78z.jpg LOL, the clusterfuck begins. What their policy should be is anything on the losing fork should get returned on that fork. Idiots. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: mandica on July 16, 2016, 07:05:02 AM There are going to be some serious legal concerns with the ETH foundation and exchanges who decide to devalue or steal users funds - A decision with a 3.6% voting turnout? http://carbonvote.com/ Kraken's policy is to steal users funds on minority chain. You can vote there with your Ethereum. But it does not matter much as the miners will vote with their machine on the hard fork. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Auponef on July 18, 2016, 10:17:56 AM There are going to be some serious legal concerns with the ETH foundation and exchanges who decide to devalue or steal users funds - A decision with a 3.6% voting turnout? http://carbonvote.com/ Kraken's policy is to steal users funds on minority chain. You can vote there with your Ethereum. But it does not matter much as the miners will vote with their machine on the hard fork. For the time being, 70% of the miners who voted, they vote for the hard fork. The decision is not final yet. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Kewatia on July 18, 2016, 11:35:50 AM There are going to be some serious legal concerns with the ETH foundation and exchanges who decide to devalue or steal users funds - A decision with a 3.6% voting turnout? http://carbonvote.com/ Kraken's policy is to steal users funds on minority chain. You can vote there with your Ethereum. But it does not matter much as the miners will vote with their machine on the hard fork. For the time being, 70% of the miners who voted, they vote for the hard fork. The decision is not final yet. We just need to wait for 2 to 3 days to see the result of the hard fork. If there is consensus, the price will rise. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Natoliant on July 24, 2016, 10:57:54 AM There are going to be some serious legal concerns with the ETH foundation and exchanges who decide to devalue or steal users funds - A decision with a 3.6% voting turnout? http://carbonvote.com/ Kraken's policy is to steal users funds on minority chain. You can vote there with your Ethereum. But it does not matter much as the miners will vote with their machine on the hard fork. For the time being, 70% of the miners who voted, they vote for the hard fork. The decision is not final yet. We just need to wait for 2 to 3 days to see the result of the hard fork. If there is consensus, the price will rise. The hard fork was a success. There are two chains now. So many people are investing in two chains now. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: mandica on July 25, 2016, 09:42:40 AM There are going to be some serious legal concerns with the ETH foundation and exchanges who decide to devalue or steal users funds - A decision with a 3.6% voting turnout? http://carbonvote.com/ Kraken's policy is to steal users funds on minority chain. You can vote there with your Ethereum. But it does not matter much as the miners will vote with their machine on the hard fork. For the time being, 70% of the miners who voted, they vote for the hard fork. The decision is not final yet. We just need to wait for 2 to 3 days to see the result of the hard fork. If there is consensus, the price will rise. The hard fork was a success. There are two chains now. So many people are investing in two chains now. The Ethereum Classic price is around 0.5 dollar at present. It seems people are interested in both coins. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Hueristic on July 25, 2016, 05:08:55 PM There are going to be some serious legal concerns with the ETH foundation and exchanges who decide to devalue or steal users funds - A decision with a 3.6% voting turnout? http://carbonvote.com/ Kraken's policy is to steal users funds on minority chain. You can vote there with your Ethereum. But it does not matter much as the miners will vote with their machine on the hard fork. For the time being, 70% of the miners who voted, they vote for the hard fork. The decision is not final yet. We just need to wait for 2 to 3 days to see the result of the hard fork. If there is consensus, the price will rise. The hard fork was a success. There are two chains now. So many people are investing in two chains now. The Ethereum Classic price is around 0.5 dollar at present. It seems people are interested in both coins. If Eth survives (long run as in decades) It will be the ETC chain. Disclaimer: I have never owned any ETH and own NO ETC but have just sparked up a miner for ETC. I decided to not get involved in supporting either fork as I should have had no say in the choice not being a holder, which of course did not preclude me from voicing my opinion on the board which is easily searched. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Piston Honda on July 25, 2016, 08:00:26 PM in for the LULZ
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: BitUsher on July 26, 2016, 07:40:28 PM As predicted , Here is the first Lawsuit-
https://bitflikz.com/blogs/news/the-theft-of-a-1-billion-dollar-blockchain-community-legal-action-begins?page=2 Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: mandica on July 28, 2016, 08:50:19 AM As predicted , Here is the first Lawsuit- https://bitflikz.com/blogs/news/the-theft-of-a-1-billion-dollar-blockchain-community-legal-action-begins?page=2 I hope the law suit will be launched as soon as possible so that the authorities will notice the DAO theft. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Hueristic on July 29, 2016, 04:45:13 AM As predicted , Here is the first Lawsuit- https://bitflikz.com/blogs/news/the-theft-of-a-1-billion-dollar-blockchain-community-legal-action-begins?page=2 I hope the law suit will be launched as soon as possible so that the authorities will notice the DAO theft. ROTFLMFAO!!! Wat?!?! You silly son. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: bbc.reporter on July 29, 2016, 06:19:19 AM As predicted , Here is the first Lawsuit- https://bitflikz.com/blogs/news/the-theft-of-a-1-billion-dollar-blockchain-community-legal-action-begins?page=2 I hope the law suit will be launched as soon as possible so that the authorities will notice the DAO theft. ROTFLMFAO!!! Wat?!?! You silly son. Yes his intention is silly because he thinks the "thief" will go to jail. But I am interested for this to go to court and see what arguments Vitalik can throw in the court and what counter arguments the "thief" will make in his defense. The "thief" will have the upper hand I predict because he really did not "steal". He used what code was in the contract to transfer funds in his control. He found a legal loop hole. Do you ever wonder why Vitalik is not after the "hacker"? Because he and the slock.it developers know they have messed up and they cannot go after him and take him to court. They will lose. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: GreenBits on July 29, 2016, 06:31:03 AM No one is going to jail, unless it's debtor's prison. They are liable civilly, but unless it is proven this is an inside job, they are not liable for any criminal activity (although some may argue that this oversight was criminally negligent). They will be sued eventually, as an organization, not individuals. But no one is going to jail.
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: varusisog on July 29, 2016, 08:50:10 AM As predicted , Here is the first Lawsuit- https://bitflikz.com/blogs/news/the-theft-of-a-1-billion-dollar-[Suspicious link removed]munity-legal-action-begins?page=2 I hope the law suit will be launched as soon as possible so that the authorities will notice the DAO theft. ROTFLMFAO!!! Wat?!?! You silly son. Yes his intention is silly because he thinks the "thief" will go to jail. But I am interested for this to go to court and see what arguments Vitalik can throw in the court and what counter arguments the "thief" will make in his defense. The "thief" will have the upper hand I predict because he really did not "steal". He used what code was in the contract to transfer funds in his control. He found a legal loop hole. Do you ever wonder why Vitalik is not after the "hacker"? Because he and the slock.it developers know they have messed up and they cannot go after him and take him to court. They will lose. That is right. But which court do you think will be responsible for that? A court in the UK or Phillipins? Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: mandica on July 30, 2016, 10:47:55 AM As predicted , Here is the first Lawsuit- https://bitflikz.com/blogs/news/the-theft-of-a-1-billion-dollar-[Suspicious link removed]munity-legal-action-begins?page=2 I hope the law suit will be launched as soon as possible so that the authorities will notice the DAO theft. ROTFLMFAO!!! Wat?!?! You silly son. Yes his intention is silly because he thinks the "thief" will go to jail. But I am interested for this to go to court and see what arguments Vitalik can throw in the court and what counter arguments the "thief" will make in his defense. The "thief" will have the upper hand I predict because he really did not "steal". He used what code was in the contract to transfer funds in his control. He found a legal loop hole. Do you ever wonder why Vitalik is not after the "hacker"? Because he and the slock.it developers know they have messed up and they cannot go after him and take him to court. They will lose. That is right. But which court do you think will be responsible for that? A court in the UK or Phillipins? It does not matters now. The ETC hacker will get his ETC and he can do whatever he wants with his coins. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Kewatia on August 05, 2016, 07:12:01 AM As predicted , Here is the first Lawsuit- https://bitflikz.com/blogs/news/the-theft-of-a-1-billion-dollar-[Suspicious link removed]munity-legal-action-begins?page=2 I hope the law suit will be launched as soon as possible so that the authorities will notice the DAO theft. ROTFLMFAO!!! Wat?!?! You silly son. Yes his intention is silly because he thinks the "thief" will go to jail. But I am interested for this to go to court and see what arguments Vitalik can throw in the court and what counter arguments the "thief" will make in his defense. The "thief" will have the upper hand I predict because he really did not "steal". He used what code was in the contract to transfer funds in his control. He found a legal loop hole. Do you ever wonder why Vitalik is not after the "hacker"? Because he and the slock.it developers know they have messed up and they cannot go after him and take him to court. They will lose. That is right. But which court do you think will be responsible for that? A court in the UK or Phillipins? It does not matters now. The ETC hacker will get his ETC and he can do whatever he wants with his coins. Does it mean the ETC price will crash a lot when the DAO hacker sell his ETC when he is allowed to do so? Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: mandica on August 05, 2016, 05:57:20 PM As predicted , Here is the first Lawsuit- https://bitflikz.com/blogs/news/the-theft-of-a-1-billion-dollar-[Suspicious link removed]munity-legal-action-begins?page=2 I hope the law suit will be launched as soon as possible so that the authorities will notice the DAO theft. ROTFLMFAO!!! Wat?!?! You silly son. Yes his intention is silly because he thinks the "thief" will go to jail. But I am interested for this to go to court and see what arguments Vitalik can throw in the court and what counter arguments the "thief" will make in his defense. The "thief" will have the upper hand I predict because he really did not "steal". He used what code was in the contract to transfer funds in his control. He found a legal loop hole. Do you ever wonder why Vitalik is not after the "hacker"? Because he and the slock.it developers know they have messed up and they cannot go after him and take him to court. They will lose. That is right. But which court do you think will be responsible for that? A court in the UK or Phillipins? It does not matters now. The ETC hacker will get his ETC and he can do whatever he wants with his coins. Does it mean the ETC price will crash a lot when the DAO hacker sell his ETC when he is allowed to do so? It is possible that if the DAO hacker does not declare publiclly that he will not dump the ETC, the ETC will be dumped by others. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Minecache on August 05, 2016, 09:57:12 PM As predicted , Here is the first Lawsuit- https://bitflikz.com/blogs/news/the-theft-of-a-1-billion-dollar-[Suspicious link removed]munity-legal-action-begins?page=2 I hope the law suit will be launched as soon as possible so that the authorities will notice the DAO theft. ROTFLMFAO!!! Wat?!?! You silly son. Yes his intention is silly because he thinks the "thief" will go to jail. But I am interested for this to go to court and see what arguments Vitalik can throw in the court and what counter arguments the "thief" will make in his defense. The "thief" will have the upper hand I predict because he really did not "steal". He used what code was in the contract to transfer funds in his control. He found a legal loop hole. Do you ever wonder why Vitalik is not after the "hacker"? Because he and the slock.it developers know they have messed up and they cannot go after him and take him to court. They will lose. That is right. But which court do you think will be responsible for that? A court in the UK or Phillipins? It does not matters now. The ETC hacker will get his ETC and he can do whatever he wants with his coins. Does it mean the ETC price will crash a lot when the DAO hacker sell his ETC when he is allowed to do so? It is possible that if the DAO hacker does not declare publiclly that he will not dump the ETC, the ETC will be dumped by others. Fuckin idiots. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: bitcoinpixie on August 05, 2016, 10:01:47 PM Taul is a douchebag but jail? lol.
Vitalik is my hero. Good luck explaining this situation to a judge Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: TravelsAsia on August 05, 2016, 10:47:08 PM As predicted , Here is the first Lawsuit- https://bitflikz.com/blogs/news/the-theft-of-a-1-billion-dollar-[Suspicious link removed]munity-legal-action-begins?page=2 I hope the law suit will be launched as soon as possible so that the authorities will notice the DAO theft. ROTFLMFAO!!! Wat?!?! You silly son. Yes his intention is silly because he thinks the "thief" will go to jail. But I am interested for this to go to court and see what arguments Vitalik can throw in the court and what counter arguments the "thief" will make in his defense. The "thief" will have the upper hand I predict because he really did not "steal". He used what code was in the contract to transfer funds in his control. He found a legal loop hole. Do you ever wonder why Vitalik is not after the "hacker"? Because he and the slock.it developers know they have messed up and they cannot go after him and take him to court. They will lose. That is right. But which court do you think will be responsible for that? A court in the UK or Phillipins? It does not matters now. The ETC hacker will get his ETC and he can do whatever he wants with his coins. Does it mean the ETC price will crash a lot when the DAO hacker sell his ETC when he is allowed to do so? It is possible that if the DAO hacker does not declare publiclly that he will not dump the ETC, the ETC will be dumped by others. Fuckin idiots. You are a fun character to read, there's no way you are actually this dense. ETH forked to bail out poor investor choices. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Natoliant on August 06, 2016, 12:32:29 PM As predicted , Here is the first Lawsuit- https://bitflikz.com/blogs/news/the-theft-of-a-1-billion-dollar-[Suspicious link removed]munity-legal-action-begins?page=2 I hope the law suit will be launched as soon as possible so that the authorities will notice the DAO theft. ROTFLMFAO!!! Wat?!?! You silly son. Yes his intention is silly because he thinks the "thief" will go to jail. But I am interested for this to go to court and see what arguments Vitalik can throw in the court and what counter arguments the "thief" will make in his defense. The "thief" will have the upper hand I predict because he really did not "steal". He used what code was in the contract to transfer funds in his control. He found a legal loop hole. Do you ever wonder why Vitalik is not after the "hacker"? Because he and the slock.it developers know they have messed up and they cannot go after him and take him to court. They will lose. That is right. But which court do you think will be responsible for that? A court in the UK or Phillipins? It does not matters now. The ETC hacker will get his ETC and he can do whatever he wants with his coins. Does it mean the ETC price will crash a lot when the DAO hacker sell his ETC when he is allowed to do so? It is possible that if the DAO hacker does not declare publiclly that he will not dump the ETC, the ETC will be dumped by others. Fuckin idiots. You are a fun character to read, there's no way you are actually this dense. ETH forked to bail out poor investor choices. The ETH price is still higher than ETC. So it is more appropriate to say that investors are more interested in ETH. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Auponef on August 07, 2016, 07:13:11 AM The ETH price is still higher than ETC. So it is more appropriate to say that investors are more interested in ETH. In the last few days, most Ethereum developer declared that they will work 100% on ETH, so the price has risen. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: mandica on August 07, 2016, 12:40:40 PM The ETH price is still higher than ETC. So it is more appropriate to say that investors are more interested in ETH. In the last few days, most Ethereum developer declared that they will work 100% on ETH, so the price has risen. The ETH price has been around 0.0185 for some time. It might be waiting for the direction by the big whales. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Natoliant on August 23, 2016, 08:03:40 AM The ETH price is still higher than ETC. So it is more appropriate to say that investors are more interested in ETH. In the last few days, most Ethereum developer declared that they will work 100% on ETH, so the price has risen. The ETH price has been around 0.0185 for some time. It might be waiting for the direction by the big whales. I reckon the Ethereum price will rise a lot in the next few days. The market is concentrated on the Monero at the moment. It will come back to ETH. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: disconnectme on August 23, 2016, 03:17:58 PM The ETH price is still higher than ETC. So it is more appropriate to say that investors are more interested in ETH. In the last few days, most Ethereum developer declared that they will work 100% on ETH, so the price has risen. The ETH price has been around 0.0185 for some time. It might be waiting for the direction by the big whales. I reckon the Ethereum price will rise a lot in the next few days. The market is concentrated on the Monero at the moment. It will come back to ETH. Nice assumption, what about the Monero money moving to Ethereum Classic (ETC) Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Kewatia on September 04, 2016, 09:25:34 AM The ETH price is still higher than ETC. So it is more appropriate to say that investors are more interested in ETH. In the last few days, most Ethereum developer declared that they will work 100% on ETH, so the price has risen. The ETH price has been around 0.0185 for some time. It might be waiting for the direction by the big whales. I reckon the Ethereum price will rise a lot in the next few days. The market is concentrated on the Monero at the moment. It will come back to ETH. Nice assumption, what about the Monero money moving to Ethereum Classic (ETC) It depends on the intention of the hacker. If the hacker wants to sell, the ETC will drop in price quite a lot. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: varusisog on September 10, 2016, 04:48:32 PM The ETH price is still higher than ETC. So it is more appropriate to say that investors are more interested in ETH. In the last few days, most Ethereum developer declared that they will work 100% on ETH, so the price has risen. The ETH price has been around 0.0185 for some time. It might be waiting for the direction by the big whales. I reckon the Ethereum price will rise a lot in the next few days. The market is concentrated on the Monero at the moment. It will come back to ETH. Nice assumption, what about the Monero money moving to Ethereum Classic (ETC) I think the Monero price or the market capitalization will get bigger and bigger. It will move faster than the ETC. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Natoliant on September 18, 2016, 05:44:54 PM The ETH price is still higher than ETC. So it is more appropriate to say that investors are more interested in ETH. In the last few days, most Ethereum developer declared that they will work 100% on ETH, so the price has risen. The ETH price has been around 0.0185 for some time. It might be waiting for the direction by the big whales. I reckon the Ethereum price will rise a lot in the next few days. The market is concentrated on the Monero at the moment. It will come back to ETH. Nice assumption, what about the Monero money moving to Ethereum Classic (ETC) It depends on the intention of the hacker. If the hacker wants to sell, the ETC will drop in price quite a lot. It seems the hacker does not want to sell. Or he cannot sell at the moment. If he does so, he will be caught. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: RavenBitcoins on September 18, 2016, 08:57:23 PM WOW. Insanity and a good time for the AMP sale tomorrow from Synereo.
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: varusisog on October 24, 2016, 05:31:24 PM The ETH price is still higher than ETC. So it is more appropriate to say that investors are more interested in ETH. In the last few days, most Ethereum developer declared that they will work 100% on ETH, so the price has risen. The ETH price has been around 0.0185 for some time. It might be waiting for the direction by the big whales. I reckon the Ethereum price will rise a lot in the next few days. The market is concentrated on the Monero at the moment. It will come back to ETH. Nice assumption, what about the Monero money moving to Ethereum Classic (ETC) It depends on the intention of the hacker. If the hacker wants to sell, the ETC will drop in price quite a lot. It seems the hacker does not want to sell. Or he cannot sell at the moment. If he does so, he will be caught. I think the ETC survived the initial speculation of the selling by the hacker. But it will still suppress the price. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: mybitcoin101 on October 25, 2016, 05:30:44 AM Yes
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: TrueAnon on October 25, 2016, 02:50:26 PM ETH garbage non stop hacked LOL
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Cryptotraider16 on October 25, 2016, 08:11:20 PM YES! this 2 guys desere Jail!
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: TTMNewsK on October 30, 2016, 02:19:22 AM I think Yes! They deserve to be in jail.
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Kewatia on December 15, 2016, 09:57:32 AM I think Yes! They deserve to be in jail. They are just cryptocoin developers. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: DeadBirdzz on December 15, 2016, 03:39:43 PM Vitalik should not go to jail.
But Tual should most definitely be locked in a cell and they should throw away the key..... Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Natoliant on December 20, 2016, 01:18:53 PM I think Yes! They deserve to be in jail. They are just cryptocoin developers. Who delivered/keep delivering a broken product while make millions. ETH heads are a fucking joke. The epitome of all that is wrong in crypto. The price of the ETH is still over $5. So it is quite normal. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: DU30 on December 20, 2016, 11:56:00 PM What a load of bitter FUD. At least its an interesting read. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: billybobmaryjoe on December 26, 2016, 10:15:49 PM The SEC is just looking for people to make examples out of in crypto. If they were going to do something they would have done it by now.
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Auponef on December 30, 2016, 03:14:31 PM The SEC is just looking for people to make examples out of in crypto. If they were going to do something they would have done it by now. crypto currency is not a security, so it has nothing to do with them. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: DU30 on January 08, 2017, 06:07:14 AM The SEC is just looking for people to make examples out of in crypto. If they were going to do something they would have done it by now. That's ture but they also could be waiting for the right time to pounce and I bet Vitalik will be at the top of their hit list. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Kewatia on February 23, 2017, 07:24:30 AM The SEC is just looking for people to make examples out of in crypto. If they were going to do something they would have done it by now. That's ture but they also could be waiting for the right time to pounce and I bet Vitalik will be at the top of their hit list. I think the Ethereum is not a security. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: Hueristic on February 23, 2017, 06:55:52 PM The SEC is just looking for people to make examples out of in crypto. If they were going to do something they would have done it by now. That's ture but they also could be waiting for the right time to pounce and I bet Vitalik will be at the top of their hit list. I think the Ethereum is not a security. Well it's not Secure, Thats for sure! :D Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: phytosaw22 on February 23, 2017, 07:52:59 PM Looks to me that they got themselves in deep legal shit... a) The terms and conditions of the particular smart contract supersedes hundreds of years of US legal contract law, not! Directly or indirectly, this has been fudded all over the internet. 100% of the legal consensus is that in the US, US contract law is the guiding agent. Who has jurisdiction is another matter, but in whatever jurisdiction, that jurisdiction's legal system is the controlling entity. You are not waving away the US court system with words written in magic pixie dust on a piece of paper. b) It''s clear that the Ethereum foundation immediately needs to consult with legal experts in the areas of contract law and security and exchange law in order to clarify in their talks what exactly they can and cannot claim/promise. CEO's never say anything for public attribution without clearing it with legal. Absolutely! Why do they fail if they fork? Seems to me the fanboys who buy anything that sounds good, don't really care about whether it is decentralized, because we were writing for months in the Ethereum Paradox thread that Casper would be moving it towards centralization. They only believe what they want to believe. So why would recovering the funds for the fanboys be worse than not from the perspective of sustaining Ethereum? They can state that the rules weren't well elucidated and that in the future, all users must understand that contracts are not warranted to perform as advertised. Tual has potentially a big problem if they didn't do adequate disclosure. This can end up in lawsuits and he can end up prosecuted under securities regulations. If they did make very clear and conspicuous disclosure about risks, then they definitely shouldn't fork because no one will ever again know what the rules are (as they will be open to change at-will). All about fungibility and centralization. It sucks, and I don't think anyone could honestly argue that the attacker deserves the coins, but intervening would be disastrous to the long term prospects of ETH. There's plenty of precedent to suggest that intervention like this would be a death sentence. The "fanboys" wouldn't care, but as far as long term adoption and all that goes, you're really shooting yourself in the foot. Those in it for the quick money are no doubt pissed off, but anyone in it for the long haul should be staunchly against a fork. I think the "attacker" deserves the funds, because and assuming he did nothing illegal (but I am not even sure if he didn't violate some obscure law). But we are discussing about perceptions of what the risks are. Please re-read my prior post as I added to it. For me, it hinges on whether they had adequately explained/disclosed the risks to the DAO and ETH investors. I suspect not (otherwise why $168m invested[1]). Thus I argue they can fork and then make the conspicuous and repeated disclosure so that it is clear they will be consistent from here on. And they pretty much have to fork in that case, else they throw themselves under the legal liability bus (but due to the decline in the ETH price they are fucked legally no matter what they do). As for the threats of lawsuits from the "attacker", these can be ignored because they can claim that the majority has the Byzantine power to fork and everyone who uses CC knows that. Or they can take the stance that all CC investors should know the risks and that they are the owners, because it is decentralized. In that case, they shouldn't fork, but I think they will lose this argument in court perhaps. The DAO investors can file a class action lawsuit for example (which btw supercedes every international jurisdiction!) and claim to be n00bs who trusted Vitalik and Tual their idols. I believe this clusterfuck is going to lead to securities regulation of CC. :'( Vitalik is growing up very fast I think right about now. [1] Where are the statements about how participants could lose everything if there is a bug? They should have scared away some of the money. I read 18,000 investors for $168 million, so several $1000s each. Luckily there is Common law. Contracts are all about consent; abusing a gap/hole/vulnerability in a contract is obviously non-consentual and thus illegal. Without such a legal framework, no contract in the world could exist. No contract is perfect. Agreed. My father specializes in contract law, graduated top of his class at L.S.U. and was former West Coast Division Attorney for Exxon. I once was fretting over the fine print of a contract for a $205,000 license I sold for CoolPage in 2001, and he advised to not kill the contract negotiations because he said the court would not enforce a one-sided contract. So contract law interprets what is the intent, not just what is written in the contract. Do you mean the intent of the DAO is not to enrich somebody by $50 million by exploiting a hole in the coding? No. leopard2 and I mean that the intent of the DAO contract is roughly not to allow 1 user take all the value out without consensus voting. And contract law will likely Edit: but note it is not clear whether the law could enforce it (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517223.msg15271289#msg15271289). Still think they're going to jail? Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: mining1 on February 28, 2017, 12:09:06 PM Anything he says, he's usually proven wrong.
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on February 28, 2017, 12:44:12 PM Still think they're going to jail? I think they are very likely culpable under securities law (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1218399.msg18002958#msg18002958). However, given Vitalik's rich father's political connections, I would doubt he will go to jail. We live a corrupt world. Ostensibly, TPTB will allow these scams and ICOs to continue for as long as they can make more money allowing it than by attacking it. I can't predict the chaotic future (as in the pendulum in chaos theory), but I can imagine scenarios wherein the party in ICOs come to its natural end. I offered already the idea that the ICOs might become too numerous and fracturing the economies-of-scale for stealing (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1807652.msg18004323#msg18004323), thus sending the gains to too many individuals and away from the TPTB. At that point, TPTB might kill its own scam (Ethereum) while shorting it to the ground as they announce regulatory actions. Who knows. My popcorn is ready. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: phytosaw22 on February 28, 2017, 05:46:24 PM Still think they're going to jail? I think they are very likely culpable under securities law (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1218399.msg18002958#msg18002958). However, given Vitalik's rich father's political connections, I would doubt he will go to jail. We live a corrupt world. Ostensibly, TPTB will allow these scams and ICOs to continue for as long as they can make more money allowing it than by attacking it. I can't predict the chaotic future (as in the pendulum in chaos theory), but I can imagine scenarios wherein the party in ICOs come to its natural end. I offered already the idea that the ICOs might become too numerous and fracturing the economies-of-scale for stealing (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1807652.msg18004323#msg18004323), thus sending the gains to too many individuals and away from the TPTB. At that point, TPTB might kill its own scam (Ethereum) while shorting it to the ground as they announce regulatory actions. Who knows. My popcorn is ready. Haha you are a funny man. You think all the lawyers they have fired are just sitting on their hands doing nothing? You think Fortune 500 companies would feel safe working with Ethereum if Vitalik is going to go to jail? Accenture, BP, BNY Mellon, CME Group, Credit Suisse among others. You clearly do not know what you are talking about. You are DELUSIONAL Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on February 28, 2017, 06:08:53 PM Haha you are a funny man. You think all the lawyers they have fired are just sitting on their hands doing nothing? You think Fortune 500 companies would feel safe working with Ethereum if Vitalik is going to go to jail? Accenture, BP, BNY Mellon, CME Group, Credit Suisse among others. You clearly do not know what you are talking about. As if everyone one who was ever involved with Fortune 500 companies never went to jail. But didn't I just write that he may have the connections to probably avoid going to jail. As for the coming failures I wrote about, being affiliated with Fortune 500 companies has never prevented such failure. Ever heard of Michael Milken and the high-yield junk bond collapse of many of the Savings & Loans banks in the USA. Or how about Enron executives who were charged. Etc... You are DELUSIONAL Less rational than you who doesn't know the definition of 'black swan' (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1806043.msg18013693#msg18013693)? Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: cakravothy on February 28, 2017, 07:07:38 PM you can share source is accurate and reputable about youre title thread
is source only comment from member bitcointalk without source reputable site, is only speculation and not accurate until now ethreum is good price and good volume transaction Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: MentalMigraine111 on February 28, 2017, 07:14:09 PM I know Barry Silbert been in trouble with the SEC. Vitalik going to prison is a good april fools joke.
Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: iamnotback on February 28, 2017, 09:42:01 PM I know Barry Silbert been in trouble with the SEC. Vitalik going to prison is a good april fools joke. The ones who can buy off the SEC may only get a handslap (e.g. Erik Voorhees who afair refunded all the money to participants and paid a fine), but the other smucks will wear the blame nametags on orange prison uniforms: However, there’s already indications that at least the US Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), which is responsible for overseeing the nation's securities laws, is paying attention. Consensus amidst crisis Last month, the deputy director of the SEC’s trading and markets division, Gary Goldsholle, pointed to the hack as illustrative of his concerns over consumer protection in similar instances in the future, according to a Wall Street Journal report (http://www.wsj.com/articles/sec-official-says-ethereum-hack-illustrates-blockchain-concerns-1466459986). To minimize the negative impact the hack might have on those consumers, Jentzsch said a series of measures have been organized within the community. Until the legal framework is in place, giving in to the seduction of ICOs puts you and your company at risk of a regulatory crackdown. Founders and non-ICO investors could lose everything to a big penalty. And that risk doesn’t stop at the company level. Founders and directors could be personally responsible to investors, or even face criminal charges. So far regulators have taken a light touch, but since The DAO debacle we know the SEC is paying attention (http://www.coindesk.com/author-daos-original-code-minimize-regulatory-backlash/) to the crypto-equity world, and it’s safe to assume that someone, somewhere is going to get hit with the regulatory hammer. Don’t let it be you. Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: DU30 on March 29, 2017, 06:00:08 AM I know Barry Silbert been in trouble with the SEC. Vitalik going to prison is a good april fools joke. When did silbert have troubles with the sec? Title: Re: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? Post by: monsanto on March 29, 2017, 08:10:23 AM I know Barry Silbert been in trouble with the SEC. Vitalik going to prison is a good april fools joke. The ones who can buy off the SEC may only get a handslap (e.g. Erik Voorhees who afair refunded all the money to participants and paid a fine), but the other smucks will wear the blame nametags on orange prison uniforms: However, there’s already indications that at least the US Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), which is responsible for overseeing the nation's securities laws, is paying attention. Consensus amidst crisis Last month, the deputy director of the SEC’s trading and markets division, Gary Goldsholle, pointed to the hack as illustrative of his concerns over consumer protection in similar instances in the future, according to a Wall Street Journal report (http://www.wsj.com/articles/sec-official-says-ethereum-hack-illustrates-blockchain-concerns-1466459986). To minimize the negative impact the hack might have on those consumers, Jentzsch said a series of measures have been organized within the community. Until the legal framework is in place, giving in to the seduction of ICOs puts you and your company at risk of a regulatory crackdown. Founders and non-ICO investors could lose everything to a big penalty. And that risk doesn’t stop at the company level. Founders and directors could be personally responsible to investors, or even face criminal charges. So far regulators have taken a light touch, but since The DAO debacle we know the SEC is paying attention (http://www.coindesk.com/author-daos-original-code-minimize-regulatory-backlash/) to the crypto-equity world, and it’s safe to assume that someone, somewhere is going to get hit with the regulatory hammer. Don’t let it be you. Yeah, I tend to think it's coming. Like black friday for online poker players, I expect to wake up one morning and find various crypto sites with sec/fbi seizure notices on them. It might not go down exactly like that, but someday, push will come to shove, and forces will collide. If/when it happens it will be interesting to see how it affects the different projects. It could be that those projects designed with more plausible decentralizability have an upper hand in survival under those environmental conditions. That kind of legal action by the government might push crypto back more towards its roots. |
