There was no DAO hack

[meme magic]

Ok so ethereum comes about as an independent platform designed to displace billions of dollars in already existing and functonal financial structure, on which dao, an adc, which is supposed to displace yet again billions of dollars in already existing financial agreements through trusted third parties, who i feel i should remind you are all paying taxes to ... tptb.

And now you want these same tptb to spank some coder that basically made a fool of you after you shit the bed?

did i get that right?

sure there might be an investigation, but i bet nothing comes out of it.

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[USB-S]

There should always be miners selfish enough to mine any transaction. Isn't it?

How do you get every single miner to collude not to do it?

Miners don't give a fuck. They'll include anything that has high enough bribe for them.

[darkagentx]

People, take from someone who actually understands exploits.

This was no hack.

This was built into the code and it executed as designed.

It was there from the second it was launched.

It was too well formed and executed too quickly to be a bug.

Don't be stupid.

This was an inside job.


~BCX~

Then those who audited the code should already be aware of the "bug" since in the beginning of the implementation or they are not very good coders not to take notice of it. And this guy made the first move to exploit it before others can.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

There should always be miners selfish enough to mine any transaction. Isn't it?

How do you get every single miner to collude not to do it?

Miners don't give a fuck. They'll include anything that has high enough bribe for them.

As it should be. If crypto isn't censorship-resistant it's a toy. What has to happen to block the fork? Anything miners or nodes can do to stop it?

[USB-S]

There should always be miners selfish enough to mine any transaction. Isn't it?

How do you get every single miner to collude not to do it?

Miners don't give a fuck. They'll include anything that has high enough bribe for them.

As it should be. If crypto isn't censorship-resistant it's a toy. What has to happen to block the fork? Anything miners or nodes can do to stop it?

But it is vitaliks centrally planned toy. Vitalik has been and will be the central weak link of the project. If he wishes to break the immutability of the blockchain. Let it be so!

[Lauda]

If 51% of the miners decide to fork, I think I will follow the majority and support the fork to get back the money from the attacker.

In other words: ETH is centralized and susceptible to corruption.

For most coin holders, serious bugs that can ruin a coin should not be acceptable.

For any single rational person, decentralization and immutability should be the priority in these coins. Without that aspect, you're just left with inefficient systems.

As it should be. If crypto isn't censorship-resistant it's a toy. What has to happen to block the fork? Anything miners or nodes can do to stop it?

Miners and nodes should be able to stop it (unless it works a bit differently with ETH). As long as they don't update, then everything is fine.

[boomboom]

choke hazard ...

[coinyard]

There should always be miners selfish enough to mine any transaction. Isn't it?

How do you get every single miner to collude not to do it?

Miners don't give a fuck. They'll include anything that has high enough bribe for them.

That is right. If the attacker can give back most of the Ethereum to the DAO investors, I will support not to fork.

[coinyard]

If 51% of the miners decide to fork, I think I will follow the majority and support the fork to get back the money from the attacker.

In other words: ETH is centralized and susceptible to corruption.

I thought that is democracy. Like bitcoin, it has forked many times. Every new version coming out, the community decides if it wants to upgrade or not.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

If 51% of the miners decide to fork, I think I will follow the majority and support the fork to get back the money from the attacker.

In other words: ETH is centralized and susceptible to corruption.

I thought that is democracy. Like bitcoin, it has forked many times. Every new version coming out, the community decides if it wants to upgrade or not.

In Bitcoin it would take total overwhelming concensus to hard fork a change like this. And if it was soft forked in under the table presumably the value would plummet because of it?

[Lauda]

In other words: ETH is centralized and susceptible to corruption.

I thought that is democracy. Like bitcoin, it has forked many times. Every new version coming out, the community decides if it wants to upgrade or not.

You're mixing apples and potatoes here. Bitcoin mostly uses soft-forks in order to improve its capabilities. Bitcoin has never used any kind of coin-control or bailouts which is exactly what ETH is going to do. If they do that, ETH is not immutable. Period.

In Bitcoin it would take total overwhelming concensus to hard fork a change like this.

Which is obviously never going to happen. Only foolish people would support something like this.

And if it was soft forked in under the table presumably the value would plummet because of it?

The instinct value of a blockchain lies in the decentralization and immutability. Such a move would negate both, so I expect the answer to that question to be yes.

[smooth]

There should always be miners selfish enough to mine any transaction. Isn't it?

How do you get every single miner to collude not to do it?

The way a soft fork works is that miners not only don't include the transactions but won't build on a block that does. You only need 50%+ of the miners to sign on to pull of the attack, not every single miner.

[bitboy11]

You're mixing apples and potatoes here. Bitcoin mostly uses soft-forks in order to improve its capabilities. Bitcoin has never used any kind of coin-control or bailouts which is exactly what ETH is going to do. If they do that, ETH is not immutable. Period.

Forking to remove 184 billion Bitcoins is a form of coin control.

[smooth]

You're mixing apples and potatoes here. Bitcoin mostly uses soft-forks in order to improve its capabilities. Bitcoin has never used any kind of coin-control or bailouts which is exactly what ETH is going to do. If they do that, ETH is not immutable. Period.

Forking to remove 184 billion Bitcoins is a form of coin control.

Do you understand that Bitcoin was forked to address an issue created by a bug in the Bitcoin code?

It was not forked because a transaction script did not do what someone expected as DoOverCoin is proposing to do.

[Lauda]

Forking to remove 184 billion Bitcoins is a form of coin control.

Wrong. Stop posting nonsense to defend scams like ETH ("scam" because it claimed decentralization and immutability). The problem which occurred with Bitcoin broke the initial specification at a protocol level. The DAO hack did not break ETH. Read the posts by other people first. Did Bitcoin roll-back after Mt.Gox? Hint: No.

[sidhujag]

Forking to remove 184 billion Bitcoins is a form of coin control.

Wrong. Stop posting nonsense to defend scams like ETH ("scam" because it claimed decentralization and immutability). The problem which occurred with Bitcoin broke the initial specification at a protocol level. The DAO hack did not break ETH. Read the posts by other people first. Did Bitcoin roll-back after Mt.Gox? Hint: No.

I guess it was a quick snap decision because he had to release something and it had to be decisive otherwise it would have falling harder and faster... but he decided at the time (and I don't believe the hardfork was his idea) that there would be a soft fork to omit the transaction and then a hardfork to reverse the dao investors... I believe the DAO should be held accountable, it can reap the rewards, why not the risks?  I think he felt that the whole DAO project was too big to let fail and burn the tokens because he knew the hacker wouldnt refund. At the time it was the only sensible thing to do, to not woudl otherwise put the both projects in jeopardy because no other dAPP fund raising would ever be trusted again and that is the core of the ethereum business model to achieve network affect. Just me guessing.

Anyways since then the attacker has threatened with legal action which puts the ball in Vitaliks court again. The smart thing would have been to just ask for a bounty in private and take a few million $ and run. But to try to go for the full amount and threaten that he will sue etc is a childish move imo and will backfire as Vitalik will surely fork so hacker gets nothing and then probably not have any issues legally.

I believe DAO will have an option of staying alive and again this is just me but if I were to do it I would give DAO investors the option to keep with the DAO tokens and keep the project alive at their will... obviously reducing supply and reducing the scope of the project financially. This will fall inline with short term expectations with the quality of code that has been written which had compromised the present value of the project. In the future we are sure the quality will increase as well as awareness of what can happen if you don't do proper code inspections and analysis of the possible code paths of the contracts. (recursion is like smart contracts 101, a code review would have caught it).

[bitboy11]

I'm not defending Eth as I don't have any.

However, I think you're mistaken that it will destroy Eth if they forked. You are all proposing that they will no longer be trusted.

I think there is a chance that it might actually increase TRUST in their system as there will be a leadership that will protect the Ethereum masses from hackers and other deviants. In today's world, there is a lot of talk about Socialism and it seems that people like their leaders to take care of them.

I think there could be a greater chance that Ethereum collapses without an intervention. So since they are already headed that way, they might as well do what they can to prevent that.

[sidhujag]

I'm not defending Eth as I don't have any.

However, I think you're mistaken that it will destroy Eth if they forked. You are all proposing that they will no longer be trusted.

I think there is a chance that it might actually increase TRUST in their system as there will be a leadership that will protect the Ethereum masses from hackers and other deviants. In today's world, there is a lot of talk about Socialism and it seems that people like their leaders to take care of them.

I think there could be a greater chance that Ethereum collapses without an intervention. So since they are already headed that way, they might as well do what they can to prevent that.

Knowing vitalik he will work towards a voting mechanism that allows a DAO contract to control consensus level changes to ethereum through a majority vote? i dunno I feel like we have smart people in our community to solve problems that exist after we have big issues (mt gox led to creation of decentralized exchanges)

[Lauda]

I think there is a chance that it might actually increase TRUST in their system as there will be a leadership that will protect the Ethereum masses from hackers and other deviants. In today's world, there is a lot of talk about Socialism and it seems that people like their leaders to take care of them.

This is definitely a big no. Such a system could never be resistant to government control and general corruption. What is Vitalik thinking? The intrinsic value of the blockchain lies within its decentralization, immutability and censorship resistance (which are arguably interconnected). They're about to lose all of them.

[bitboy11]

This is definitely a big no. Such a system could never be resistant to government control and general corruption. What is Vitalik thinking? The intrinsic value of the blockchain lies within its decentralization, immutability and censorship resistance (which are arguably interconnected). They're about to lose all of them.

Your statement might be true, it may lose all those qualities however it may become the most TRUSTED centralized blockchain platform. Do you really think that the Ethereum community will abandon ship if they all got their money back or if the DAO is completely restored and patched?

I think they will stay.