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hello, i was buying an account from user lind82 for 160$, we used bithra.com escrow, once i've sent btc to escrow he asked for the release key, and then said if i dont give him the release key i will never get my btc or admin, i started looking around and realised the site doesn't offer any option to return escrow to the buyer if he was scammed! and they say their business model is picking up "forgotten" escrows older then a year
when i contacted the site owner, he told me i have to wait for EXACTLY 1 year before contacting him, and then he stopped repliying

link to profile - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=552363

txid - 1b5bc84cca7ea437d84cff72c55a257cd3ea1dce5db6c08ca5fbf9a292bf81a3

screenshots of the conversation with lind82 - https://i.imgur.com/RpoydOz.png

                                                             https://i.imgur.com/VOfajQ6.png

                                                             https://i.imgur.com/ihPiHl1.png


screenshot of conversation with forum user RHavar, owner of bithra.com - https://i.imgur.com/zoHSpnF.png


i can sign a message with my wallet if somebody wants to be sure

Why were you trying to buy this account?

*looks at trust*

Oh... so to sell shady MSDN keys.

A scammer gets scammed. Oh well. Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

P.S. $160 for an account with negative trust? Hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha. Stfu.

It doesn't matter what i was trying to buy, he scammed me using a this site
and i'm not a scammer, i don't have any scam accusations.
Please refrain from commenting if you have nothing valid to say
and do try to find some other purpose in life then sharing your very original mindset with others, thank you.

Please link to his or her's bitcointalk profile or all other alternative accounts he has on the forum.

I lmao'd ,sorry to be laughing at the situation but why would he ask you to wait for 1 year lol that is indeed one sick policy of the service.

there, i've updated the post to include a link to his profile

because in 1 year everybody will forget about it and he can claim it way before that, it says in the page FAQ that they will make money by collecting "forgotten" escrows older then, wait for it... 1 year

You should be able to spot a shady business model when you see one.

Also there isn't much that can be done since his account already has negative trust.

he was willing to use escrow, everything seemed perfect until the moment i told him i have sent the btc to escrow, you can see for yourself from the pictures..
anyway forum user RHavar is the owner of the mentioned escrow site, designed to do just this, when some deal goes bad, there is no way for the buyer to get his money back, ever
link to his profile -----> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=389331
i have posted him negative feedback, but i will remove it if my btc is returned, for now the site looks like a pure one way street scam

OK, first things first.

The whole purpose of Escrow is so that one person doesn't scam the other in a trade.

There are two issues, firstly, a scam has taken place in that lind82 hasn't passed on goods agreed to in exchange for funds (in this case BitCoins which were sent to Bithra.com )

The second issue is that the funds are being held in Escrow by Bithra.com via a mechanism where by the funds are deposited by the purchaser kassadin5 and will be released by Bithra.com when kassadin5 uses the secret token to trigger the payment to the seller.

The Bithra.com site was announced here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1456828.0 on the 2nd May 2016 by RHavar and was vouched by DarkStar_ the next day in the thread.

[quote author=RHavar link=topic=1456828.msg14736064#msg14736064 date=1462230183]
[quote author=Dogedigital link=topic=1456828.msg14734701#msg14734701 date=1462218503]
Very nice site.  I'm impressed.

What happens in the case of disputes?
[/quote]

Thanks! The two parties need to work it out. It's the moral equivalent of 2-of-2 multisig, but designed to be easier to use  (no public key sharing, both people don't need to sign the transaction). If you need arbitration or something more advanced, it's not really the service.

There was a good discussion of it in bustabit, but basically the summary is that it removes the upside in scamming -- but doesn't prevent people scamming.
[/quote]

OK, it doesn't stop people scamming.

[quote author=RHavar link=topic=1456828.msg14737450#msg14737450 date=1462249934]
[quote author=Quickseller link=topic=1456828.msg14737249#msg14737249 date=1462246630]

---

I am also curious to know what will happen after the one year period is up
[/quote]

If the funds are never released, they will be forever lost to bithra. They won't be sent to the destination, or returned to sender -- as picking either of them could encourage a type of scammers. It kind of mimicks what happens in a 2-of-2 escrow situation, when the parties don't come to agreement (except in this case, I keep the money instead of them being forever unspendable)
[/quote]

(The I keep the money part above is referring to a 2-of-2 Escrow)

---

So, let's go over to Bithra.com


There is a message dialogue:


You are given two options:

• Go Back
• Create Escrow

I've created a Wallet Address: 1kasd5a3xf7DSpQuVJ22QppXvsj519XHk which then creates a Wallet Address: https://www.bithra.com/escrows/1Gx4npuQR22tUVKfzsiUtFUPGyirsSLVgp

on the page at the bottom there is the guarantee:


In the example funds would be deposited, the purchased item is delivered, then the BitCoins held in Escrow are released.

On the Bithra home page there is a whole section Why should I use Bithra? At the bottom of the page is the FAQ link: https://www.bithra.com/faq which in part reads:


It's spelt out quite convincingly what you kassadin5 self-Escrowing are getting into.

---

OK, so now we get to the actual scam:

[quote author=kassadin5 link=topic=1534851.msg15446230#msg15446230 date=1467481748]

https://blockchain.info/tx/1b5bc84cca7ea437d84cff72c55a257cd3ea1dce5db6c08ca5fbf9a292bf81a3

screenshots of the conversation with lind82 - https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/17/blobc69697b59f18d93e.png

                                                             https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/17/blob0146b6a38cc4df32.png

                                                             https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/17/blob9cc20429e567448c.png

[/quote]

I wasn't able to read these when you posted them on the Bithra BCT page, but I can now.

Yes, it would seem you have been scammed by lind82 in that they have tried to coax from you the secret key you used to create the Escrow with.

As such I will red flag lind82 and encourage others to do likewise as this is a clear scam attempt to prey upon your desperation to buy an account in the hope you would hand over the secret key.

I will contact lind82 via PM (Private Mail) in the hope that I can convince them to hand over to a third party the purchased goods and in return will get an undertaking from kassadin5 to release the funds.

---

While it might on the surface look humorous that someone with negative trust has been scammed, let's not forget that a person has been scammed for a considerable sum.

The TX quoted sends funds to 1KM1NoNDoNhGidRZGcza9tuVkuhw4nSQQg BTC 0.24 (Roughly $ 160.00 at the time of transaction).

There is indeed a Bithra Escrow page for that Wallet Address:

https://www.bithra.com/escrows/1KM1NoNDoNhGidRZGcza9tuVkuhw4nSQQg so on the balance of probabilities, everything kassadin5 has said about being the sender of funds (including an offer to sign a message from Wallet Address 1Q5LQzeZw5kbiCwnszyF1VY5jFgFrPCYxR ) checks out as being true.

All we can do now is contact lind82 and ask that they release the purchased goods to a fourth party... Which looks like it is up to me to do...

I'll keep you informed.

---

But before I go... the destination Wallet Address 12GNo1TNmm8g75XtfD9M7LfeXLv39r8jHQ is part of Wallet [00007e70a7] with a total of 53,466 Wallet Addresses...

We know lind82 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=552363 uses it: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1514806.msg15264185#msg15264185 (locked thread) http://archive.is/cX25f

As does adiyrie https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=453306

http://archive.is/MTvNU

[quote author=adiyrie link=topic=1012975.msg10990656#msg10990656 date=1428250790]
Done follow you
https://twitter.com/rara_bitco

12GNo1TNmm8g75XtfD9M7LfeXLv39r8jHQ
[/quote]

http://archive.is/KvsIa

[quote author=adiyrie link=topic=1010575.msg10969265#msg10969265 date=1428057585]
Done
follow and tweet https://twitter.com/rara_bitco
12GNo1TNmm8g75XtfD9M7LfeXLv39r8jHQ
[/quote]

...and so does howbtc https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=221437

http://archive.is/AdkoR

[quote author=howbtc link=topic=1110633.msg11837843#msg11837843 date=1436503465]
For July 10

Type: Twitter/Facebook/Google+/Forum
Link: https://twitter.com/rara_bitco/status/619364810271014912
Link: https://plus.google.com/103602157556378557114/posts/i17QJVQRXxL
Link: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1610206019267598&id=100008346464049
Link: http://thebot.net/profile-posts/29230/

Bitcoin Address: 12GNo1TNmm8g75XtfD9M7LfeXLv39r8jHQ

Bonuses: BTC 0.03
[/quote]

http://archive.is/4svIY

[quote author=DirectDice link=topic=743577.msg10038557#msg10038557 date=1420404884]
[quote author=howbtc link=topic=743577.msg10038483#msg10038483 date=1420404380]
All-In Poker

https://twitter.com/rara_bitco

https://www.facebook.com/bijai.bj

http://www.directbet.eu/BetStatus.cshtml?BetID=1Dge6zHZ4Q415GczfRiu5b1wS758LvpSa5

address me : 12GNo1TNmm8g75XtfD9M7LfeXLv39r8jHQ

Thank You
[/quote]

Hi howbtc,

Thank you for participating :)

Your free bet is confirmed. Gook Luck !

All the Best,

Michelle

[/quote]

---

First off, I'm very sorry you are getting scammed. I made bithra to try stop scams, so it sucks it's being used for one. However, bithra is doing what it was designed to do: unless you release the money, the scammer won't make a cent.

As for why I can't release the money to you, it would explicitly go against what bithra was designed for. For one, the details of the trade were never entered into the system, so I have no idea what the money for for. I have no way to prove if the skype screenshot are real, or if they are indeed from the right person.  And most importantly, it would go against the promise birtha (and the provably fair) makes.


I guess the big flaw of bithra, is that it is not very useful for when you don't trust the receiver of the money (the seller). As they have a cost-free way to have you lock up your funds, with your only hope negotiating with them. I'm thinking a good way to solve this, would be have untrusted destinations commit to the deal with a sort of deposit, to remove the "cost free" scamming.

for god sakes man, the txid is in the screenshots, you know it's mine, the time matches, AND i can sign a message from that wallet
this is not a "big flaw" of bithra, this is a way for you to collect frozen bitcoins in escrow
you can undo it and send me my btc back, just like EVERY FUCKING ESCROW SERVICE DOES WHEN THEIR USERS GET SCAMMED, but you wont because you want the money

RHavar is a Dirty fucker, figuratively and literally, you shouldn't have expected much more from him. He is a scummy Piece of Shit.

Fuck him and the couch his mother birthed his Ass on

I wonder who you are an alt of?

http://archive.is/jj2oe
http://archive.is/jj2oe#selection-4559.0-4580.0

http://archive.is/bIGe1
http://archive.is/bIGe1#selection-2963.0-2983.58

http://archive.is/xVixW
http://archive.is/xVixW#selection-5601.0-5634.0

Or how much you paid for that account?

Unfortunately if you are going to use bithra.com as an escrow, you will need to trust your trading partner a fair amount because a scammer/troll could get you to send BTC to bithra with no intent of sending you the agreed upon goods. It could be possible that the scammer plans on trying to either tricking the buyer into releasing escrow early or giving the release key to the seller (allowing them to sign the release transaction). It is also possible for a scammer to promise to return a certain percentage of the BTC to the buyer if the buyer releases escrow -- on an EV basis, this is +EV verses simply letting bithra keep the BTC in escrow, even if the other person is clearly a liar and a scammer because there is a very small chance the other party will keep their word, and return your BTC to you verses a guarantee that the buyer will never see his BTC again if it stays at bithra for a year.

Some escrow services will allow for the escrow agreement to call for the seller to deposit a certain amount of BTC into escrow that would be released to the buyer in the event that the seller is unable/unwilling to deliver whatever goods/fiat is being sold.

This is really bad from RHavar ..and he has a positive trust...I don't think its a good gesture its his money should be returned to him...

To be clear, his service is doing exactly what it promised to do (via the message that it signed). In reality, any BTC that is returned to the OP from RHavar will most likely be from his personal funds.

I think the issue is more that RHavar's escrow service is not quite the same as a "traditional" escrow service in the bitcoin world in that it does not offer any kind of mediation services.

(I think it is strange the a bunch of newbie accounts are posting in this thread that are critical of RHavar)

This thread clearly proves the point beyond doubt that RHavar's escrow service (BITHRA.COM) is shit and will not come to terms in case a party tries to scam during a trade.

Thanks for posting this OP. I will never ever use Bithra again. I thought it had potential but today the proof is clear in front of us. I don't trust RHavar and Bithra anymore! >:(

Next time hire any escrow providers from here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=855778.0) if you don't want to get tangled again.

Do not feel that you are correct kassadin5
whether you guarantee after I send the items,  you will release escrow ?
you also have negative trust.
and have alt account in here.  ;D ;D ;D

you give trust for yourself
http://image.prntscr.com/image/9a179d9b5bdf4f5dacce18045df61250.png

1st, i dont have alts, i have clients who just started using the forum, those go into untrusted feedback anyway, so they are not usefull at all, and unlike some, i actually have something to do to make money, not steal it, so i don't have time for alt accounts

second, you just admitted you scammed me

third, you have a guarantee you will get the btc because i already agreed to give "the release escrow key" to any official escrow on the forum from here ----> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=855778.0

but since im 99% sure you never had any accounts to begin with it doesn't matter much

i have -16 trust (because of self proclaimed forum TOS police) and no scam reports whatsoever and over 30 vouches on the forum for me being a legit seller, you have only scam reports and nothing else, on every account you own

These are some of the complicated scenarios where Bithra, Escrowmybits or any other online escrow services doesn't help much rather than keeping it on their escrow address nearly a year before having it fully under their custody.

That's why a human mediated escrow service is two times better since they will be able to come to a conclusion based on the number of proofs presented by a party and his own intellectual judgement.

Next time don't make any mistakes in choosing an escrow service.

I am startled to advise the one line reply I got from lind82 was


Some 30 minutes later I received this by way of an excuse


Which is absurd because lind82 would then receive the [BCT] 0.24 paid out to them.

If lind82 wanted to make amends s/he should reimburse the BTC 0.24 to a third party who would then forward to kassadin5 *after* kassadin5 released the BTC 0.24 held at Bithra.com

I really don't think it has been fair to drag Bithra into this mess that has been lind82's making from the start.

Are you really trying to coax kassadin5 into releasing the BTC 0.24 to you lind82 less than 30 minutes after you send to me a PM that you have already sold the item in question?

I think I might have to look much closer at your three user accounts that I linked earlier in the day.

After getting an in principle agreement from lind82 to pay BTC 0.24 to a third party so that kassadin5 in turn would release the funds held by the Break Proof Bithra.com all of my hard work (and I mean hard work) was unraveled when kassadin5 simultaneously contacted lind82 with promises that all red trust would be removed for lind82's trust page.

I never gave that undertaking and I never would remove it either.  Now lind82 is denying he gave an in principle agreement, unless of course he doesn't understand English fully which appears to be a second language for them.

kassadin5 is his own worst enemy.  He got cold feet and wanted out of the trade, he's lashed out at Bithra.com and by extension to RHavar  (no doubt kassadin5 will no lash out at me...)  Since I was last online about eleven hours ago this was posted:


So congratulations kassadin5 for breaking an unbreakable method of Escrow.  You are your own worst enemy.  Bithra.com didn't scam you.

I came onto this forum to post my own scam accusation and came across this . Heres my thoughts for what they are worth.

I saw LIND82 advertising the MSDN account . Right away I felt it was a scam . Just didn't feel right .

Ive used Kassadin5 many times for keys and never been let down . The -16 negative trust DOES look bad but hes explained that .

As for the escrow service BITHRA.COM and the owner RHavar  ??    WOW ! What a piece of shit . EVERYONE here can see whos scamming who and he wants to keep the money for A YEAR ? ?   I hope you don't make another penny as you sir are as bad as the other scammers .

Well apparently Kassadin5 has been refunded so well done to escrow guy .

You're Welcome.

Now pull your head in about Bithra as you don't know what you are talking about.

Really ???  Be quiet wee man and speak when spoken to . The facts are there for all to see and BITHRA escrow are acting like scammers . Go on tell me im wrong .