Bitcoin Forum

Bitcoin => Hardware => Topic started by: smoothie on March 16, 2013, 02:16:24 AM



Title: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: smoothie on March 16, 2013, 02:16:24 AM
Let the "DOG and PONY show" begin...

 :P


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: Raoul Duke on March 16, 2013, 02:25:58 AM
I'm 12 and what's this? ::)


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: repentance on March 16, 2013, 02:29:35 AM
Luke's blog posts aren't official updates.  Josh still needs to explain to customers what the fuck is going on, but I strongly suspect that update won't come before next week now.

And seriously, the order management system still isn't up and running properly - what the hell does Jody get paid for?  Yeah, ASICs are complicated, yada, yada, yada.  That in no way excuses or explains BFL's ongoing inability to get their customer management software working properly - that should have happened long before shipping time got close and the repeated delays in shipping have given them plenty of extra time to sort it out. 

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot to "celebrate" about Jody's one year anniversary at BFL given that customer service is still a clusterfuck and they still haven't shipped their new product line.


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on March 16, 2013, 02:48:28 AM
Luke's blog posts aren't official updates.  Josh still needs to explain to customers what the fuck is going on, but I strongly suspect that update won't come before next week now.

And seriously, the order management system still isn't up and running properly - what the hell does Jody get paid for?  Yeah, ASICs are complicated, yada, yada, yada.  That in no way excuses or explains BFL's ongoing inability to get their customer management software working properly - that should have happened long before shipping time got close and the repeated delays in shipping have given them plenty of extra time to sort it out. 

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot to "celebrate" about Jody's one year anniversary at BFL given that customer service is still a clusterfuck and they still haven't shipped their new product line.

At last count there were seven people in CS, with more to be hired. I know I didn't read that from any of Team Avalon's post/site(s). Don't make me go there to show my cock to Jody's chickens.


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: smoothie on March 16, 2013, 02:51:11 AM
Pehaps they were celebrating being able to keep BFL customers on the hook for such a long time. I mean 1 year, 9 months....what's the difference right?


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: Frizz23 on March 16, 2013, 12:04:49 PM
And seriously, the order management system still isn't up and running properly - what the hell does Jody get paid for?

I don't get that either! Just imagine BFL would have shipped back in October 2012 as they initially promised. Can you imagine the chaos?

People that ordered Jalapenos getting Mini Rigs - and vice versa. Their order system is a mess. I just checked today - my order is still not correct.

I still remember one of Jody's updates where she said BFL might skip Christmas holidays because they will be busy assembling our miners. Playing on people's pity. Funny. Not!

As it turned out all bullshit.

Besides playing Minecraft and trolling their own forums: What does BFL staff actually do all day? One could expect that at least their infrastructure would be set up and running by now. Yet nothing has happened.

Butt full of FLies: Incompetence. Inability. Dishonesty.

http://rrmemphis.com/buttflies.jpg


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on March 17, 2013, 08:15:58 AM
And seriously, the order management system still isn't up and running properly - what the hell does Jody get paid for?

I don't get that either! Just imagine BFL would have shipped back in October 2012 as they initially promised. Can you imagine the chaos?

People that ordered Jalapenos getting Mini Rigs - and vice versa. Their order system is a mess. I just checked today - my order is still not correct.

I still remember one of Jody's updates where she said BFL might skip Christmas holidays because they will be busy assembling our miners. Playing on people's pity. Funny. Not!

As it turned out all bullshit.

Besides playing Minecraft and trolling their own forums: What does BFL staff actually do all day? One could expect that at least their infrastructure would be set up and running by now. Yet nothing has happened.

Butt full of FLies: Incompetence. Inability. Dishonesty.

http://rrmemphis.com/buttflies.jpg

You're slipping! You missed an opportunity to coin a new word. Care to play again?


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: Frizz23 on March 17, 2013, 09:32:11 AM
You're slipping! You missed an opportunity to coin a new word. Care to play again?

Do I really have to state the obvious? Butt Full of Lies?


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: greyhawk on March 17, 2013, 12:17:59 PM
You're slipping! You missed an opportunity to coin a new word. Care to play again?

Do I really have to state the obvious? Butt Full of Lies?

I think he was referring to Inaba-Ill-Ity


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on March 17, 2013, 05:00:44 PM
You're slipping! You missed an opportunity to coin a new word. Care to play again?

Do I really have to state the obvious? Butt Full of Lies?

I think he was referring to Inaba-Ill-Ity

 ;D ;D ;D

Boy, is he slippin'!


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: PuertoLibre on March 17, 2013, 05:06:59 PM
You're slipping! You missed an opportunity to coin a new word. Care to play again?

Do I really have to state the obvious? Butt Full of Lies?

I think he was referring to Inaba-Ill-Ity
Hey, that is my copyrighted trademark for Josh! ;D


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on March 18, 2013, 02:10:16 AM
You're slipping! You missed an opportunity to coin a new word. Care to play again?

Do I really have to state the obvious? Butt Full of Lies?

I think he was referring to Inaba-Ill-Ity
Hey, that is my copyrighted trademark for Josh! ;D

You're Joshin' me, right?


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: PuertoLibre on March 18, 2013, 02:47:03 AM
You're slipping! You missed an opportunity to coin a new word. Care to play again?

Do I really have to state the obvious? Butt Full of Lies?

I think he was referring to Inaba-Ill-Ity
Hey, that is my copyrighted trademark for Josh! ;D

You're Joshin' me, right?
Holy...shit.....

That is genius! It can mean anything:

From your getting hassled to potentially hustled...all the way up to "your lying to me" all the time...all wrapped up in one word.

You ought to sell that on a T-Shit to BFL customers. As well as submit it to the slang dictionary.



Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on March 18, 2013, 03:36:57 AM
You're slipping! You missed an opportunity to coin a new word. Care to play again?

Do I really have to state the obvious? Butt Full of Lies?

I think he was referring to Inaba-Ill-Ity
Hey, that is my copyrighted trademark for Josh! ;D

You're Joshin' me, right?
Holy...shit.....

That is genius! It can mean anything:

From your getting hassled to potentially hustled...all the way up to "your lying to me" all the time...all wrapped up in one word.

You ought to sell that on a T-Shit to BFL customers. As well as submit it to the slang dictionary.


http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7027/6723996213_f543c5a1e9_z.jpg


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: meowmeowbrowncow on March 18, 2013, 04:34:30 AM
You're slipping! You missed an opportunity to coin a new word. Care to play again?

Do I really have to state the obvious? Butt Full of Lies?

I think he was referring to Inaba-Ill-Ity
Hey, that is my copyrighted trademark for Josh! ;D

You're Joshin' me, right?
Holy...shit.....

That is genius! It can mean anything:

From your getting hassled to potentially hustled...all the way up to "your lying to me" all the time...all wrapped up in one word.

You ought to sell that on a T-Shit to BFL customers. As well as submit it to the slang dictionary.


http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7027/6723996213_f543c5a1e9_z.jpg


I'll buy 100 for the flash mob in front of BFL Labs or some other annoyingly effective location.


F' it.  If there's a billboard nearby the office I'll just rent it and put 'BFL is shit.'






Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: greyhawk on March 18, 2013, 04:03:34 PM
I'm noticing a distinct lack of Luke posting anything but pictures of neon signs.


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: PuertoLibre on March 18, 2013, 04:50:56 PM
The following is a post full of pure speculation:

I'm noticing a distinct lack of Luke posting anything but pictures of neon signs.
Anything else and...it would tip the masses that there is something wrong.  ;D

I just laughed at my own joke....cause it is true. We all probably know it is a clusterfuck behind the scenes. We just don't see anything directly to confirm it.

In the absence of a confirmation there is only "speculation".

=============

When their tester had a bad socket, they went to Plan B.

Plan B: Blindly slap each chip unto the PCB's and pray.

Plan B1: If slapping the chips on the sockets actually works....then program the chips with firmware and hope you can hide bad chips stats from the users who will be receiving them. Overclock as necessary.

Plan C: If too many chips come out defective or under spec. We will send each customer an extra unit to compensate.

For anyone who doesn't believe me about "Plan C", go read the Shout archive for BFL_Josh. In or around 3/10 at 11pm. (If I recall the date correctly)


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: Isokivi on March 18, 2013, 04:55:17 PM
Dibs on the neon signs when we go in with pitchforks and torches!
[disclamer] This is a joke my asic lottery ticket allready "won" me a credit card refund (bASIC).


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on March 18, 2013, 05:01:55 PM
I'm noticing a distinct lack of Luke posting anything but pictures of neon signs.

Luke was about to release the following image snapped during Jody's anniversary party...

http://s3.amazonaws.com/gmi-digital-library/739579fe-4360-40e5-9391-95eb5df0ad34.jpg

...but opted otherwise, not wanting to be criticized about hanging around a bunch of tarts.


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: stevegee58 on March 18, 2013, 05:07:02 PM
Luke was about to release the following image snapped during Jody's anniversary party...

http://s3.amazonaws.com/gmi-digital-library/739579fe-4360-40e5-9391-95eb5df0ad34.jpg

...but opted otherwise, not wanting to be criticized about hanging around a bunch of tarts.

Those look like Raspberry Pies.


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on March 18, 2013, 05:15:07 PM
Luke was about to release the following image snapped during Jody's anniversary party...

http://s3.amazonaws.com/gmi-digital-library/739579fe-4360-40e5-9391-95eb5df0ad34.jpg

...but opted otherwise, not wanting to be criticized about hanging around a bunch of tarts.

Those look like Raspberry Pies.

Finally, Luke has supply pics. You just have to know where to look: eclipsejpa.blogspot.com (http://eclipsejpa.blogspot.com/2012/11/java-7-se-parallel-processing-cluster.html)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--noEz2CS-2Y/UNE5waSR6vI/AAAAAAAAwL4/-UBT-kT7Kfg/s640/IMG_9863_raspberry_pi_8_cluster_setup_1024.jpg


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: crazyates on March 18, 2013, 05:52:56 PM
Finally, Luke has supply pics. You just have to know where to look: eclipsejpa.blogspot.com (http://eclipsejpa.blogspot.com/2012/11/java-7-se-parallel-processing-cluster.html)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--noEz2CS-2Y/UNE5waSR6vI/AAAAAAAAwL4/-UBT-kT7Kfg/s640/IMG_9863_raspberry_pi_8_cluster_setup_1024.jpg

Umm wtf? That's a post from 5 months ago about building a rPi cluster. Nothing to do about BFL's ASICs?


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: stevegee58 on March 18, 2013, 06:01:51 PM
Umm wtf? That's a post from 5 months ago about building a rPi cluster. Nothing to do about BFL's ASICs?

I do believe this thread has descended into a nerdy yucking contest.


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on March 18, 2013, 07:52:27 PM
Umm wtf? That's a post from 5 months ago about building a rPi cluster. Nothing to do about BFL's ASICs?

I do believe this thread has descended into a nerdy yucking contest.

True! All we know for sure is that Luke is/was at BFL, new signage was installed, Jody had anniversary party, and Josh walks fast when an issue arises.

The only thing missing is another airplane ride for the kiddies.


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: nagnagnag2 on March 19, 2013, 12:54:31 PM
why is there no news from Luke-JR on his trip to BFL yet?


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: meowmeowbrowncow on March 19, 2013, 01:07:53 PM
why is there no news from Luke-JR on his trip to BFL yet?



They're at the local gentlemen's club gloating about their shiney, backlight signage while their faces are between large pairs of certain anatomy. 




Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: greyhawk on March 19, 2013, 01:59:48 PM
why is there no news from Luke-JR on his trip to BFL yet?

You mean: Why has there been no communication at all from anyone at BFL since Luke arrived?

One possible answer is: There was an accident where Joshs plane did not land where it should have, but instead in the Bahamas. The real question then becomes: How did they fit 22 people into a Diamond Star?


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: PuertoLibre on March 19, 2013, 02:05:10 PM
I told him not to fly through the Bermuda Triangle!


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: nagnagnag2 on March 19, 2013, 02:23:11 PM
why is there no news from Luke-JR on his trip to BFL yet?
You mean: Why has there been no communication at all from anyone at BFL since Luke arrived?

something like that, yes.


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: Aseras on March 19, 2013, 06:42:29 PM
I'll go out on a limb and suggest that it's because they don't have anything working well enough to show.

That or Inaba is too busy keeping Nasser and Luke entertained in his favorite ways, speculating on their sexuality.


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: cypherdoc on March 19, 2013, 06:57:22 PM
i'll bet Luke is busy working on some of the coding.


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: nagnagnag2 on March 19, 2013, 07:05:41 PM
i'll bet Luke is busy working on some of the coding.

has anyone actually seen any kind of activity from Luke.Jr on the (Inter)net, since friday?


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: crazyates on March 19, 2013, 07:36:29 PM
i'll bet Luke is busy working on some of the coding.
has anyone actually seen any kind of activity from Luke.Jr on the (Inter)net, since friday?
There was only one way to guarantee LJR's silence, and Josh did what had to be done.


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: FreedomCoin on March 19, 2013, 07:40:32 PM
i wish they would put up a webcam in the building area so we can see progress.


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: P_Shep on March 20, 2013, 09:00:39 PM
i wish they would put up a webcam in the building area so we can see progress.

I don't want to see what Luke gets up to in front of a computer.


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: greyhawk on March 20, 2013, 09:04:18 PM
i wish they would put up a webcam in the building area so we can see progress.

I don't want to see what Luke gets up to in front of a computer.

I've seen it and it isn't pretty. Let's just say it involves bible verses.


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: Mousepotato on March 20, 2013, 09:07:21 PM
There was only one way to guarantee LJR's silence, and Josh did what had to be done.

ew


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: P_Shep on March 20, 2013, 09:18:48 PM
I've seen it and it isn't pretty. Let's just say it involves bible verses.

The humanity :(


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: Xian01 on March 20, 2013, 10:52:08 PM
i wish they would put up a webcam in the building area so we can see progress.

I don't want to see what Luke gets up to in front of a computer.

I've seen it and it isn't pretty. Let's just say it involves bible verses.

I wonder if Luke-Jr is going to make a pilgrimage to the Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka before he heads back...


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: Frankie Delaney on March 20, 2013, 10:53:54 PM
i wish they would put up a webcam in the building area so we can see progress.

They have!

http://www.ustream.tv/ASecondChanceRescue

Looks like the "engineers" are taking a nap.


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: repentance on March 20, 2013, 11:34:33 PM
Luke Jr in BFL shoutbox just now.

Quote
I think I'm going to have to go home w/o any ASICs.

His response to questions about the problem is "nfc" (no fuckng clue).

Update from Josh.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/1380-what-happened-updates-3.html#post19506


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: Cablez on March 20, 2013, 11:49:03 PM
Can you quote it as I cannot access the site for several hours now.


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: repentance on March 21, 2013, 12:03:15 AM
Can you quote it as I cannot access the site for several hours now.

No problems.

Quote from: Josh
I have no idea where this ludicrous "ground plane issue" rumor got started, but whoever started it is out of touch with any sense of reality. There is no ground plane issue on the PCBs. The hold up right now is the test rig and debugging it... since that is what we are doing at the moment, there's nothing new to update. Once the test rig issue is resolved, we will resume the process going forward. I am loathe to detail the process at this point, it is just fuel for the trolls who like to pick apart every word type and analyze it for conspiracy theories. I will update when I have an update that's worth posting. Smaller updates I will post in the chat, and thanks to the magic of the grrnbrg they will make it to twitter. At this time, I wholeheartedly endorse grrnbrgs unofficial twitter feed.

Just as an unrelated side note, it would take approximately 24 hours to get new PCB's made if we had to redesign them for some reason. Depending on whatever would need to be done to the PCBs, the actual design work would take two or three days typically, unless it was a complete redesign and there would be basically no reason in the world to do that at this point. I don't know why anyone would think 4 - 6 weeks for a PCB redesign, that's just crazy. We have gone through many, many board redesigns since this process started, I've only pictured two or three of the 6 or 7 revisions we've had throughout the process. Basically, we could have a redesigned board ready to go by the time the chips arrived at the facility, that has never been a sticking point.

I haven't been posting much because I am very busy with other issues related to getting these chips out and making sure everything is ready once they arrive here in KC. I will make time to sit down and go through some of the threads here as soon as I can, but right now I am focusing on all the details for shipping. The daily DDoS doesn't help, but I've mostly gotten that automated at this point, so it's no longer that big of a concern or time suck thankfully.


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: Syke on March 21, 2013, 01:23:06 AM
Quote from: Josh
Just as an unrelated side note, it would take approximately 24 hours to get new PCB's made if we had to redesign them for some reason. Depending on whatever would need to be done to the PCBs, the actual design work would take two or three days typically, unless it was a complete redesign and there would be basically no reason in the world to do that at this point. I don't know why anyone would think 4 - 6 weeks for a PCB redesign, that's just crazy. We have gone through many, many board redesigns since this process started, I've only pictured two or three of the 6 or 7 revisions we've had throughout the process. Basically, we could have a redesigned board ready to go by the time the chips arrived at the facility, that has never been a sticking point.

I just love how he criticizes other people's estimates, when every single estimate he's ever given has been missed by 1000% or more.


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: fcmatt on March 21, 2013, 01:24:29 AM
I sorta gave up following bfl... But the post above did not help in the least.  am i wrong to guess they still have not ran a test unit that can actually hash yet?


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: repentance on March 21, 2013, 01:42:18 AM
I sorta gave up following bfl... But the post above did not help in the least.  am i wrong to guess they still have not ran a test unit that can actually hash yet?

No, you're not wrong.  They're hoping to have things sorted out next week.

Quote
But I digress... as I said in the shoutbox, we think we've found the problem with the test rig and the ASIC team has managed to get the chips spinning with some hand modifications to the test rig and some of the engines were even running at 500 MHz. They are going to finish diagnosing and then get new hardware for the test rig, so we should have something demonstrable by early to mid next week. Should be pretty smooth sailing after that.

The chances of them shipping before April seem extremely remote given that update.


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: TwinTurbo on March 21, 2013, 02:37:01 AM
I sorta gave up following bfl... But the post above did not help in the least.  am i wrong to guess they still have not ran a test unit that can actually hash yet?

No, you're not wrong.  They're hoping to have things sorted out next week.

Quote
But I digress... as I said in the shoutbox, we think we've found the problem with the test rig and the ASIC team has managed to get the chips spinning with some hand modifications to the test rig and some of the engines were even running at 500 MHz. They are going to finish diagnosing and then get new hardware for the test rig, so we should have something demonstrable by early to mid next week. Should be pretty smooth sailing after that.

The chances of them shipping before April seem extremely remote given that update.

Even though I have some BFL gear on order, I'd certainly hope they don't ship before April. If they did, it'd probably mean the testing won't be very thorough. Even in the IT industry, 1 week to test a complex piece of software after it's presumed to be final is very aggressive. We're talking hardware here, not just software. How does it behave with different mining software? How does it behave under higher thermal conditions? Humidity conditions? What are the voltage variance operating limits? Is it prone to any RF interference? I could come up with a million test cases but you all get the idea.

Actually, as much as I want it, I'll be disappointed if they ship it before the end of the month. Between the eternal BFL date-slips and the astronomical Avalon batch 3 price, maybe the market is begging for another contender to enter the ring.


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: creativex on March 21, 2013, 07:12:01 AM
Even though I have some BFL gear on order, I'd certainly hope they don't ship before April. If they did, it'd probably mean the testing won't be very thorough. Even in the IT industry, 1 week to test a complex piece of software after it's presumed to be final is very aggressive. We're talking hardware here, not just software. How does it behave with different mining software? How does it behave under higher thermal conditions? Humidity conditions? What are the voltage variance operating limits? Is it prone to any RF interference? I could come up with a million test cases but you all get the idea.

For clarification, you are referring to BFL here are you not? The company that's now hoping to produce a working prototype AFTER mass producing chips? Somehow I don't think such elaborate testing procedures are going to be on the agenda. Then again who knows, they did just wheel out that new(illegal) all sales are final bit. ;D

Quote
Between the eternal BFL date-slips and the astronomical Avalon batch 3 price, maybe the market is begging for another contender to enter the ring.

You gotta figure one has a whole lot to do with the other. bASIC goes tits up and BFL continues to demonstrate an astonishing inaba-ility to do...anything at all effectively. Suddenly the price of the only working ASIC vendor's product skyrockets.


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: Monster Tent on March 21, 2013, 08:31:41 AM
And seriously, the order management system still isn't up and running properly - what the hell does Jody get paid for?

I don't get that either! Just imagine BFL would have shipped back in October 2012 as they initially promised. Can you imagine the chaos?

People that ordered Jalapenos getting Mini Rigs - and vice versa. Their order system is a mess. I just checked today - my order is still not correct.

I still remember one of Jody's updates where she said BFL might skip Christmas holidays because they will be busy assembling our miners. Playing on people's pity. Funny. Not!

As it turned out all bullshit.

Besides playing Minecraft and trolling their own forums: What does BFL staff actually do all day? One could expect that at least their infrastructure would be set up and running by now. Yet nothing has happened.

Butt full of FLies: Incompetence. Inability. Dishonesty.

http://rrmemphis.com/buttflies.jpg

Butt Flies ftw


Title: Re: Luke Jr. @ BFL
Post by: meowmeowbrowncow on March 21, 2013, 12:45:17 PM
Quote from: Josh
Just as an unrelated side note, it would take approximately 24 hours to get new PCB's made if we had to redesign them for some reason. Depending on whatever would need to be done to the PCBs, the actual design work would take two or three days typically, unless it was a complete redesign and there would be basically no reason in the world to do that at this point. I don't know why anyone would think 4 - 6 weeks for a PCB redesign, that's just crazy. We have gone through many, many board redesigns since this process started, I've only pictured two or three of the 6 or 7 revisions we've had throughout the process. Basically, we could have a redesigned board ready to go by the time the chips arrived at the facility, that has never been a sticking point.

I just love how he criticizes other people's estimates, when every single estimate he's ever given has been missed by 1000% or more.


There is some truth to this.