Bitcoin Forum

There have been an increasing number of posts from recently registered users wanting to buy bitcoins with PayPal. While new users may indeed be enthusiastic about Bitcoin and be accustomed to using PayPal for prior purchases, this type of request is also exactly what scammers do to steal bitcoins. It is relatively simple to charge back or dispute any PayPal payment after receiving irrevocable bitcoins, and scam purchases are used as a way to empty stolen PayPal accounts.

Traditional payment networks (including PayPal) suffer inherent weaknesses:

• Some payment fraud is unavoidable,
• Completely non-reversible transactions are not possible; payment processors are involved in disputes,
• Identity fraud and remote account takeover using stolen credentials are possible,
• Payment processors can block funds and freeze accounts,
• You must provide your credit card or account number to sites, which can be stolen by hackers to spend your money.

Bitcoin has none of these problems:

• Confirmed Bitcoin payments are absolutely trustable,
• Payments are non-reversible; money cannot be recalled by the sender,
• Identity theft is a non-issue - payment recipients don't need to obtain the identity of buyers or store personal information to take payments,
• Nobody else can interfere with your Bitcoin balance or your ability to send or receive money,
• You are in control of your money - when you send a payment, the recipient or hackers cannot make other fraudulent withdraws from your wallet.

Why is it difficult to purchase Bitcoins with your old-fashioned money?

If this is the fault of Bitcoin, it is because Bitcoin is too good. If you receive a payment with Bitcoin, you can be 100% sure that the money is yours and it can't be disputed or taken back out of your wallet. PayPal, Credit cards, ACH checking transfer and money wires, Chase Quickpay, Dwolla, and most any other banking payments, however, can be reversed - they are less trustworthy than the Bitcoins you are trying to buy.

This is why even Bitcoin exchanges have rigorous verification procedures - they need to verify your identity thoroughly, not because of Bitcoin, but because they are taking your government currency, transferred through banks and payment processors, which is fundamentally problematic. Exchanges that only deal with Bitcoin-based virtual currencies (such as Bitcoin to Namecoin) have no such identity requirements.

In addition, PayPal specifically disallows currency exchanges, and are Bitcoin-hostile. When you complain that you were ripped off, it's just as likely your account will be frozen.


So how can you obtain bitcoins, if nobody on the Internet can tell the difference between you and a foreign crime syndicate? If you don't wish to go through the lengthy verification procedures on exchanges, I recommend you first investigate local traders who are willing to exchange bitcoins in person. Sites such as https://localbitcoins.com/ or http://www.tradebitcoin.com/ may help you find local Bitcoin users. Also, Bitcoin is for commerce - sell something and accept Bitcoin!

What about gift paypal paments? Quick easy no seller commision and unreversible

Stickied for now

When these payments are sent to you from an account that has been hacked into and the original owner complains, or the payment is funded with a stolen or disputed credit card, you'll find out quickly how reversible PayPal is. PayPal isn't going to be left holding the bag, they pass their fraud losses on to you.

Thanks for the useful info! I had no idea that Paypal could issue refunds even for cash gifts. Scary!

Fascinating information.

Isn't the risk of buying bitcoins with paypal the same risk as buying anything else with paypal?  What is considered to be the safest way to do this other than going to someone in person and making sure you get the cash in hand?

thanks for this post

sums up what I've been telling a friend in a much more coherent manner  :)

Thank you for this advice!

It's not the risk of buying bitcoins with paypal - it's the risk of selling bitcoins for paypal.  Example:  you sell me 1 bitcoin and I buy it by paying you $100 thru paypal.  Once I receive the bitcoin from you I file a dispute on paypal.  Paypal reverses the transaction and gives me back my $100.  Now I have 1 Bitcoin I didn't have to start with, and my $100 in my paypal account.  You on the other hand have lost 1 bitcoin and have no additional money in paypal.

When buying material things, there is recorded delivery, posting receipt that can be used as evidence for the dispute by the seller. There is no evidence left to show paypal that you have sent your money, however even if there was, i think buying btc is against paypal rules aniway so..

I would say the safest way would be to open an account in a currency exchange (mt gox, btc-e, etc) and buy/sell from there since they will intermediate the exchange and you have no contact with the buyer or seller.

Aside from the ethical questions with paypal policy, you can always let them transfer your spare balance to your "real" bank account to then buy btc through a trustworthy exchange.
Also, btc-otc of you absolutely want to lose your paypal dollars ;D

There is no way of truly confirming delivery of bitcoins.

So what is the best and safest way to purchase 20-30 Bitcoins? Tell me so I can go buy some. The way it is now it's like looking for Bitcoins in the black market because all the banks seem to have a conspiracy not to  work with you.

http://complaints.paypalsucks.com/
 ;D

P.S. Just remember an axiom: PAYPAL ALWAYS RIPS YOU OFF.

If you want to be really safe, go where most the bitcoins trade are: mtgox
or try localbitcoins and see if you have any seller around you. Good luck.

Wonderbash,

I second that, apart from mtgox is only suitable for large purchases of BTC due to friction costs of charging up account.
I exchange locally for localbitcoins in the UK. But if look around the world even in the US say LA where I have a Brit friend who is married out there, there are few people on the ground.

Cheers MX

How do you know they wont beat you up and rob you in person?
This is one of the reasons Bitcoin kept that underworld stigma for so long...

There has to be an easier way. Why not use a 900 hotline or Skype Prime? Tell me why not?

Let me tell you a true story of what I've seen go wrong. If someone tries to buy Bitcoin with a Moneygram or Moneypak and the number on it is invalid then what? The buyer has no way to know with 100% certainty that this was the case, and must have faith in the seller. The seller also has no way to know with 100% certainty that the buyer didn't use an invalid card. Honestly my solution is a 1-900-BitCoin phone number. I should be able to call that number and have the cost instantly charged to my phonebill.

Another way, less stealthy, find a known location where anyone can meet to buy Bitcoins with cash in person. No meeting in random spots down dark alleys at midnight but there should be a Bitcoin coffeshop or I should be able to go to any Starbucks with cash and get Bitcoins.

Now here is the problem with Cash, with Cash you gotta worry about getting killed for it, or beaten up and robbed when it's a big enough amount. Bitcoins aren't cheap anymore, they are $100+ a coin now so now it's in the dangerous territory that drugs inhabit of being just cheap enough where people can afford it but just expensive enough that people will rob each other over it. These dangers exist primarily for the buyer not the seller imo.

go bitcoin, down with paypal

You should accept paypal for bitcoin only from a friend or from somebody who you can trust.

How about accepting Credit Cards? Does that not hold the same inherent fault.

My question is: Can a credit card transaction be reversed the same way that a PayPal transaction can?


/Bob

Yes, of course. You only need to call the credit card company and dispute the charge, even simply saying that you were unsatisfied with the purchase. The business is charged a $25 in addition to having their money taken back, has to file paperwork if they want to dispute the chargeback, and too many chargebacks and the credit card company may "review" the merchant agreement.

Credit cards also have the flaw that in order to use them, you must provide an internet site the exact information needed to also create fraudulent purchases. If someone merely copies a 16-digit CC number, they can impersonate the owner and create bogus PayPal payments. Hacks and data leaks of corporate web sites typically involve thousands of credit card numbers and owner details, and criminals gangs in lawless countries look for ways to turn this information into money.

You could confirm ownership of an address.

What if i send payment first, as gift ?

We all need to agree, paypal is the way of the past and we a Bitcoin members will not and should not accept paypal/cash as it is devil :)  In Bitcoin we trust!

This.

BTW we have bought over 275,000 BTC and have no open complaints. :)
https://fastcash4bitcoins.com

Obviously a scammer will probably offer a better rate, then again we actually pay!

So why not have an exchange that ONLY does Bitcoin->Paypal? If you have a verified PP account you're going to have a bank so PP->BC is a moot point. The BC exchange would only need to pay out money they already have [in BC].

them bastads! thanks for the info

thanks for advice  ;)

Paypal is not safe at all.

Not for buying also.

They will not cancel if the bitcoins are not sent.

Yes.  Also, many customers will claim there were missing items in the package - I bet some customers ALWAYS make sure they get more than they pay for.  That is why we weigh every package we send out, so when they say there are missing items we know for sure they are lying.

As far as I know, if you open and close a dispute, it is not possible for the sender of paypal money to take it back.
Because paypal only allows one dispute per transaction.


In most of the internet websites, they request you to send the money by paypal first, then open a dispute and close it. And finally, they will give you what you wanted to buy.
But still, they can scam you and never send it :P But you won't be able to scam at all.

Thanks for the info.  It's disappointing because being able to use PayPal would make getting bitcoins a lot easier.  :-\

On the other hand, does anyone know of any places that sells BTC and accepts paypal?
I see a logo on BTC-E, that i can adds fund by paypal, but doesn't seem to be working atm.

Try on Virwox.com

This is really annoying as my only ways of payment are either Paypal,Creditcard or bank transfer(however outside the Netherlands this is quite expensive with fees), or meeting someone however he'd need to be close to Leeuwarden. Is it safe to offer payment in things such as a paysafecard? Seeing as you buy these retail, send the code, they can use it, and you get BTC.


Is this site safe? Basically I just buy the amount in Linden dollars (SL currency), and trade those on that site for bitcoins?

Yes and yes to both of your questions. Please note you can only buy whole bitcoins, and btw, don't freak out if they leave you withdrawal request pending for max 48h, is their safeguard against paypal troublemakers.

Oh, that sucks. I don't have the money for a whole BTC :/.

Try it out and report back, because this was the rule a year ago. I didn't even note how the time passed by  :)

Will check this out!

As a general rule of thumb never EVER deal with anybody with a forum account less than 6 months old.  You WILL get scammed eventually... it's not even a matter of "if".

That's a little harsh, if you play it safe you won't.  I haven't been scammed.

Anyone know if there is a time limit PayPal user can attempt to reverse a transaction?

informative stuff i didn't know about this

And I've been on the forums for < 6 mos, and I won't scam anyone.  But then, I don't expect to be believed, either.  Be careful out there.

Could escrow services help this?

Unlikely, transactions through escrow could still be reversed.

The way that I see it is the next big gold rush in the BTC economy is no longer to directly acquire coins or mine them, but to create useful, quick, and transparent services that will facilitate these transactions.  I am very excited to see what is to come about the current race to create the first BTC credit card ;D

Nothing more fun than a credit line on a booming currency lol

Thanks a lot for this post, I was considering using PayPal to buy some bitcoins but now that I've read this, I've been reminded when I sold my WOW account for like $800 via PayPal...and got scammed. You are completely right, PayPal is weak, and I've got fresh memories of why I hate it.

Was a victim to Paypal fraud last year. It's a real bummer. And Paypal suck at resolving such issues.

Glad to see Bitcoin users are being proactive and not getting tangled in such a mess (Paypal)

Yea, have to agree about Paypal.  They act without any investigation up front.  This is really not that big of a deal if you are talking about sub hundred transactions, but when you start dealing in 1000s, it is a mess.  I avoid whenever I can.

I have a question:  I can see the PP issue, but what is your opinion on this particular situation?  

An Ebay seller has up for bid his early 60gh BFL Single order.  Very early supposedly.  He specified that PP or any other pmt than BTC would require prior permission AND that he would be willing to accept a good offer to take down the auction.  I contacted him and offered a bank-wire of $8500 (about midway between the various comparable closings that day).  This wire wouldn't require that he provide me his banking info, just a Cell# or email to give my bank, which then sends him withdrawal instructions.

He turned this down and said only BTC.  So I asked "How many BTC?"  Naturally I am expecting a number commensurate with at least 8500 USD in BTC but he sends back a request for 40 (or ~5500 USD as of that time).

Now I feel like this is a scam.  Why would a bank wire not be acceptable for an item that he won't even possess until long after the funds have appeared in his acct?  And am I not on the completely scammable and helpless end of the transaction now if I send BTC as that is completely irreversible?  Do I sound paranoid or reasonably suspicious?

Paypal has the reslove issue where you can report and get a refund unlike bitcoin.

Reasonably suspicious. Don't do it, it's probably a scam.

Yeah, I just found that he previously completed an auction on the same unit and turned down the buyer at a price of $21,000 because it wouldn't be BTC.  Seems legit.

Paypal is such a ripoff. Blow up the datacenters!

I agree that there are a lot better routes to go than PayPal, but I am one who likes options. PayPal is just another option which can be very useful and safe when used right.

So what makes Paypal any different from Dwolla or Stripe?

what about buying bitcoins on eBay and paying with PP?

The only legitimate way I've found to transfer back to USD is though big exchanges like BitFloor.

I have done that but only in small qtys... .01, .1 and .25

so far, so good. 

Buying isn't really the problem, because paypal will usually favor the buyer in a dispute.  So if you get your coins, you're good.  As a side note, I bought my first bitcoin over eBay as a Casascius coin.  Think I only paid like $25 for it, too.  :)

Speaking of scams...

If any of you are aware of Kijiji or Craigslist, this may interest you.

Recently, with the deluge of ASIC's hitting the btc mining market, many GPU miners have been selling their old GPU's as they either upgrade to ASIC or get out of the mining business altogether. 

Whereas this action in itself it legit, the following is not:  Seller on Kijiji offered a HD Radeon 6990 for $200.  When an offer was emailed to them, the reply came back with, "I think 1.5btc will be enough to cover this and shipping".. (included a payment address).

When asked about using Paypal to secure payment of the product instead of btc, 1 person replied, "no, only btc and pay now or the card goes to others" and the next replied nothing at all.

I posit that any coins sent to the address would have been lost to me without a product in-hand.

Be wary of btc's in the murky depths of the web.

haha screw paypal :)

oh I do loath paypal  >:(
They have screwed me in the past
this post is great, very helpful for avoiding getting scammed
Thanks!

So, are there any online services that can be set up fairly easily to send funds from Paypal, and then buy bitcoins?

Because you can't use PayPal to exchange currency, you cannot set it up with any exchange.  The only place I know of which you can use PayPal is through VirWox.com -- there, you can buy Lindens, and then trade the Lindens for Bitcoin.  It's a loop hole, but it works--to an extent.  You can only trade 50 PPUSD at a time.  All other exchanges require all your complete identity, IF you're dealing with USD.  When trading between the altcoins, you may remain anonymous.

I HATE PayPal. They totally screwed me and locked my account due to a lying buyer. That said, there's something nice about being able to click and send money to someone. Too bad BTC hasn't caught on in the mainstream, yet!

maybe someone should develop a paypal2btc escrow service , paypal is to mainstream to leave behind

The only way to get there... is the moment PayPal actually accepts Bitcoins and start putting their faith in it. Until PayPal itself likes it and backs it... I wouldn't try selling any bitcoins over paypal. As paypal prefers to agree with buyer, even thus chooses in their favor. Even though bitcoins are non-refundable and completely open. (an accountants wet dream)

Buying bitcoins with paypal... why not, if you have your bitcoin screw paypal.

Thanks, work-arounds are what I'm looking for.  I'm open to doing VirWox, but on the wiki it says in whole BTC values only and someone said the fees would be 25%.  Is this still true?  I cannot find such information on the Virwox site.

I only see:
Market Order Fee: USD/SLL   50 SLL   2.90%
Deposit Fee: a variable Paypal fee
Withdrawal Fee: A handling fee of 0.01 BTC per bitcoin withdrawal will be charged.


How legit would you say dealing with the sellers that have a positive rating on here(http://bcchanger.com/bitcoin-sell-orders) are?   :(

I don't think you understand the problem.  An escrow does nothing unless the escrow is held past the point of risk.  Traditional escrow funds are held until seller delivers.  Since BTC is irreversible once seller delivers goods the escrow can be safely released.  The point of no risk for PayPal transaction is 180 days.

So sure I just started the first BTC PayPal escrow.  Pay me today and I will deliver your coins in 180 days.  How many coins would you like to buy?

I have already been scammed three times, but i will do everything i can so that does not happen again with bitcoins :S

3 times? oustide of the Bitcoin world?
I got scammed pretty HARD once... still pizzes me off thinking about it but its a hard earned lesson.

Well, unless you're buying from friends. I'm fortunate to live near lots of btc users, and multiple retail outlets which accept it.

Very infomative post! Thanks!

I'd like to add to this that European banking systems work differently and that money transfers can never be reversed at least in Dutch banks. Also, they allow buying other currencies. There are a few sites that allow you to buy BTC through iDeal (the Dutch way to transfer money) and there is no reason to label them a scammer.

I never liked Dutch banking policies not to refund money but I see their point now. Most they'll do is send the recipient a letter, asking them to return the money to the rightful owner. If that doesn't work, the only thing you can do is sue.

No point to this post

Exactly - when I trade, I just wait for the funds to be in hand as $ before i send coins. Sometimes it takes a few days but this is the only way to protect from chargeback. Would be nice if paypal had a sender 'I confirm transaction and waive chargebacks' button.

I just wanna know who is that in your avatar op?

Found this really useful. Thanks, OP.

Good to know. Thanks!

Guess the Bitcoin Bandwagon is not such an easy ride, but that's ok - I mainly want to see how well they work from a merchant's point of view, selling real goods.

Thanks for you info! Every newb should read this.

He's a Bitcoin user.

He's the Bitcoin meme guy: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=144152.0
http://i.qkme.me/3t012q.jpg

I ve also noticed the prices people are selling bitcoin s on ebay for PayPal are ridiculously high compared to exchanges.

I've been ripped off through paypal even AFTER receiving positive feedback on ebay on a transaction. I had no leg to stand on due to the item not being sent signed for.

I hate it; I want it to die.

Crypto will be the only way to trade online in a decade.

Lol..calm down bro. I ve had my faces ripped off on Paypal too..

thanks for the info.

Thanks for the useful info!

how about casacius coins, that can be confirmed....

"Significantly not as described."

stay away from paypal. Use bitinstant instead.

Bumping a sticky just for the fun of it. Good stuff!

Well, that's not quite easy to do I'm afraid.
I'm a freelancer (doing 3d and what not) and not sure how I would get $ if not for paypal.
How do people do things with money online if not using paypal or bitcoins? Using bank accounts or credit cards?
I don't quite know a good way atm to buy or sell bitcoins for dollars :(

interesting I never knew

PayPal?

Just say "No way, pal!"

;D

YES. these are officially not reversible, but I have had one reversed on me. There is not certain. it is at the discretion of paypal.

PayPal protects the buyer, not the seller.

I refuse to receive funds via PayPal.

This is why I'm looking at BitCoin.

With BitCoin the scammers that claim they never got paid can't reverse the transaction.

GG

Thats good to know for newbys

The buyer / sender on PayPal can file a complaint within 45 days and get their money back! That easy!

Sucks for sellers / receivers.

Oh the horror stories :(

What would be an easy alternative to Paypal and Bitcoin?

Technically, you can. It's just not that many people are willing to sell.
This is an issue for me since I have nowhere near me to do cash deposits.

Just look at the prices on eBay.

They're about double the exchange prices, but in a few weeks that is probably not going to be a bad price for the investment.

It's a sign that people are trying too hard to turn a quick profit, but like PayPal, eBay protects one side at the expense of the other. It's a trap which can cause the current bubble to pop. Simple human anxiety and greed can crash the delicate new economy of the Bitcoin, though I will say with 11+ million BTC in circulation it will probably remain fairly stable, so long as we look at the actual economy of it instead of how we ourselves can profit.

Protip: the coins on eBay are likely to be scams, so be careful of whom you're buying from. Always triple-check everything before you buy there, and keep in mind that eBay is NOT a good deal. Stick to the exchanges.

180 days actually.

absolutely !

Physical Bitcoin exchanges
Local bank accounts in various countries that will accept in-comming / out-going transfers (to sell / buy bitcoins)
....... BTC card as you mentioned ...

YEP !!

seems like i read somewhere about the idea of 2/3 exchanges aka clearing houses for this sort of thing and it seems to me thats the way to go,
wherein funds for both are sent to a 3rd account and unlocking them requires codes from 2 of the 3 involved so buyer and seller deal with mediator who hold cash until he get btc then sends them both on there way once confirmation is there

Paypal for all its faults does just that you pay them they pay recipient,

bit coin for all its appeal is frightening  in that regard,

if i want to cash out 5 bit coins at market value of 500£ then i have to trust what ever method of payment is used  that ill get the cash,

with government backed currency the cash i offer is backed by the nation i know its good for purpose i can give you 500£ and get a phone or trade it for 750$

what guarantees other then web reputations and people vouching for them do i have that i hand over 50 btc and will receive my 5k£

same with goods im not trying to be funny or cause problems mining aside cause my pc is on full time so a little distributed computing never hurts it. these issues of trust is what kept me out of bit coin for 3 years.

In case no one has mentioned this site:  http://www.paypalwarning.com/

Paypal obviously serves a purpose.  Great as acting as the middle man for payments for purchases.  However it does not fit into the framework of BTC trade.

Is there some escrow service that could eliminate or at least minimize said problems?

Finally, something to kill the Gaypal... and Gaybay, killed my living for 7 years... I hate you guys, hope this knocks the shit out them.

I wonder how Paypal will react to this in the future when BTC\LTC take off as a major currency.

Thanks for the info

Is it legal for PayPal? Are there sending buyer info to seller in such situation, so he can call the police if there are wrong? If so, maybe PayPal account with eBay history are quite safe?

ive been reading about bitcoin escrow?
is that a good option?

I've bought with paypal because the seller knew me in person but was abroad. Great between people you trust, terrible otherwise.

Unless the escrow holds the BTC for 180 days and releases to the buyer only if the buyer doesn't chargeback in that time...

Or longer, credit cards can be charged back far after that:
http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?t=296411

Also ..Typically, the card issuer then has up to 190 days from this day to successfully dispute and recover the payment on behalf of the cardholder.

Any guarantee, membership or subscription period purchased as part of the transaction may be added to the 190 day period. For example, it is possible to fully or partially chargeback goods with a 12 month guarantee within 545 days of the "purchase date".

WTF.

PayPal also frowns upon using their service for buying and selling bitcoins, in fact you might get banned if you give them any information that is what you've done or they somehow find out you have.

It is not about paypal. It is about people involved in deal. If one is a scammer you cant protect yourself unless it is a deal where cash changes hand I mean face to face. I had experience when I lodged money to persons account and he never sent bitcoins to my address. Not much I can do as bank cant take funds from his acc. I guess only cyprus banks can do that if they want.  ;D
All I can do is to report it to police and wait if they will do something about it.
So if you are about to do a deal with stranger on other side of country or world then it is always risk for one side involved. Western union comes to mind but they have ridiculously high commission.

ive had a few good experiences doing this, but 1 bad one was all that it took and never again going to use btc/paypal

Found this really useful. Thanks

No you didn't, you posted this 39 seconds after your last post and 38 seconds before your next post. Another topic - don't trust post count (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=119085.0) as any measure of participation in the Bitcoin community..

I'll be sure not to do this. I'm not in this for paypal... Bitcoin is going to take over paypal IMHO.

hmm there's also http://coin2pal.uphero.com

has anyone tried it?

Posted elsewhere, but probably more appropriate in this thread:



As we all know/read CC => BTC is about as tricky a business as any.

Scammers are rampant and chargeback folk are just as nasty.

However, as with anything new...something needs to give.  My buddies and I are looking to try something similar to this, so I thought it might be a good idea to see what ideas everyone here might have regarding security and identification.

So I've classified the "enemy" into two categories:

1) Stolen CC's

2) Chargeback people (dishonest folk)

I'll try to map out some security measures to address each of these, and hopefully you guys can add more.  It'd be nice to help legitimate people exchange CC => BTC.

1)

Stolen CC's. 

We will be utilizing:

CVV2 Authentication
Address Verification

We will also utilize a 2-factor authentication (Authy) which texts their cell phone.
Finally, as Mt.Gox and other exchanges require (for verification), we may require a photo ID (picture taken and sent in)





2)

Chargeback folk that deny ever receiving the funds.

The best that we can do here is to utilize blockchain.info to prove that the transaction took place and that the BTC was indeed transferred.

We will also document our actions for transfer to make sure we are transferring to their provided wallet (after all CC approval checks out).


Any other ideas/suggestions would be very welcome!

Thanks!

Hopefully the vast majority of us honest folk would benefit from something like this (see BitInstant hating over on the next thread).

How are you going to deal with dishonest sellers?
How are you going to satisfy people who will pass your checks, ID, text, CC2, STD check that they will really receive what they paid for?

When it comes to Paypal, there are only two freaks of nature you can trust !

ONE :- ME !
TWO :- EBAY

Beautiful idea

I hope you succeed

you succeed and may be you are on the way to become the next bitcoin millionaire

I'm a newbie , a honest newbie, I've been watching the market for 10 ...15 days, coudn't buy my first bitcoin, because the process is so cumbersome at the moment

IF ..only IF easier options existed I could have benefited, the seller could have benefited the exchange / exchanger could have benefited

I've posted similar thoughts here
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=172011.msg1789683#msg1789683


regards

Great info right here. cheers

Do people use Dwolla?

Got verified and waiting for funds to complete transferring.

Haven't read through the entire thread, but can someone shed some light on whether or not this is true?

- Create Invoice via Paypal to send to customer
- Invoice has terms and conditions, such as non-refundable under no circumstances
- Have customer send an email to confirm they agree to terms
- Customer pays Invoice

I had to file a claim with Paypal few months ago over a dodgy Ebay seller who gave me a "new" piece of furniture. The furniture had scratches and cracks in it. It actually was a major effort for me to get Paypal to have me win the case, because I had to provide proof etc etc.

I suppose it's different when it's not a physical item, however I wonder if Paypal will accept the above steps?

creating an invoice should help because pp would consider this as a commercial or business transaction, but personal transactions is another different case... is 45 days to file dispute and better to have proof and evidence. is best not to do a personal transaction where you get limited protection...

If I understand correctly, the risk, in contrast to eg. paypal, is completely for the sender/customer (hoping he will receive what he paid for) than for the receiver/seller (who will have his bitcoins guaranteed and non-revocable)?

No way I was scammed as a buyer also. Be careful.

So we would be the sellers - and we're quite honest :)

As for people that pass all the checks - we will send them the BTC, and we are currently working on algorithms to prevent them from denying having ever received the funds :D

Paypal...

It's only good for ebay, and rarely nothing else... (like bitcoins)

In my case Paypal is quite important, as in our country we dont have many choices of other type of online payment.
There are risk involve, but since 7years of selling services I only encounter 2-3 problems with Paypal, anyhow I believe when it comes to tangible item, or even bitcoin purchase, Paypal posesss mich greater risk.

i think it also depends on what your buying selling as to the scam likly hood
bought a tablet pc no problem bought some magic cards never showed up

i do a lot of online shopping for items for people wo have mobility or learning difficulties

I was thinking about PayPal and Bitcoin this morning, actually. With Bitcoin becoming very large, and PayPal being a business, I imagined them maybe wanting to somehow support or offer Bitcoins (down the road.)

Regardless of why they are super-against this idea currently (which I can understand), I thought of one main point. If they were to keep the same model they currently use for currency exchanges and transactions, specifically the FEES they impose, they would be at a HUGE competitive disadvantage in the world of Bitcoin. If I can already go to MtGox and transfer USD/BTC without fees, why would I want to go to PayPal and shave them off part of the transaction as a fee?

I am admittedly new and haven't yet converted any BTC to USD, but what are your thoughts on this? Even if it's theoretical.

Hi everyone, what about Skrill? Isn't used for the same reasons?
I tried to found some valid site for buying with Skrill but i sucked :(

It's a shame there isn't a workaround to make paypal-bitcoin transactions safe. I get paid dollars into paypal, and converting into my local currency (GBP) to buy BTC via bank transfer seems very inefficient.

The way I understand things is this: no matter what it is you fool with there is always pros and cons. This is good for some things while at the same time being bad for others...basically you roll the dice, and you take your chances.

that is how i bought my first btc, but the date was in may 2011. now there are better ways.

exactly. bt seems to be a nice supplement. it isn't a total replacement.

I don't think people who use Paypal should always be labeled a scammer. There are a lot of ways people have Paypal cash (such as buying or selling other virtual items from other games, lik WoW), and might want to invest in Bitcoin.

is there any trust worthy BTC exchange site?

Sure, but most of us are not sitting on piles of cash.  I have been trying to find a way to get some bitcoin for a few weeks now, and it is a royal pain in the rear.  Open up with dwolla, wait for verification....  transfer from bank,.. wait days...  then wait some more.  In that time, I have watched bitcoin go from $70 to $250, and now to $130, I think?   Maybe it is a good thing that I didn't get any yet :-)

Thank you

I have used paypal to send money to secondlife/lindens, and then sent the money from secondlife to virwox and traded the lindens for bitcoins. The fees suck but it's a fast process

I am suprised a trustworthy corporation hasn't picked up bitcoins for mass currency conversion, they would stand to make alot of money if they took a % cut just like real world cash currency converters.

If you have the capital and the trust of the general public as a corporation, bitcoins could be a highly profitable trade item.

pick up at what price ? and sell at what price ? and who takes the loss IF that is massive like the last two days ?

Just got through a terrible claim process with Paypal.

1. Person buys your Bitcoin.
2. You deliver bitcoin.
3. OMG OMG MY ACCOUNT WAS HACKED!! (Scammer tries to get ebay/papal to take back your money)

Thankfully, I did win my case, and get the money. But it took a lot of effort and stress, and my funds were suspended for a week and a half. Luckily they acknowledged they received it- without this smoking gun I'm not so sure what would have happened.

Never using Paypal/Ebay again to sell. It's not just me-- this does happen on a frequent basis.

ok. is there any other online payment site that could be trusted ?

because the international audience is waiting and mt gox (80% exchange) is failing :-(

how do I get one of those ratings in my sig?

i hate chargebacks..and no way to get your coin back, so i agree...be careful with paypal

from what I've read, you do get a confirmation when you receive bit coins. In addition, you can get apps that let you know when your wallet receives bitcoins too. Please correct me if I am wrong, or if you meant something different.

Yeah, I wouldn't touch paypal with a 10 foot pole either buying or selling bit coins. 

just don't trade with unregistered guys (+always send your money to other PP acc) and newbie bitcoin traders like me  :D

paypal has been on it's way out for a long time.  In my opinion as soon as they started to put freezes of up to 21 days on payments on behalf of sites like ebay to protect buyers they became useless.

always tricky, but same here, no paypal - bitcoins for me

fine paypal is bad. then could you please advise while electronic payment is  good ?

there is an expectant community waiting to buy bitcoins

the exchanges are broken

there is money to be made IF the payment hurdle is crossed

NOT all buyers are scammers

I am NOT a scammer

Love it or hate it, PayPal is pretty damn convenient and this means it's not going anywhere for now.

Conversely, getting BTC is pretty inconvenient in comparison, and until this changes PP will continue to dominate the online payment industry.

Well, one hurdle for newbies like me who are just getting into the cryptocurrency game; the quickest way to send money (otc on irc) and get BTC is to use paypal.

The exchanges usually takes at least 1-2 business days to get your cash in the accounts.

Reading through is examples of scamming etc. This is unfortunately intrinsic to the online world. I guess we can't ever really verify what's going on.

On that note, though, I would like to buy some BTC using PayPal and would be happy to go through an Escrow with someone [ with a good rating/rep on here ] to participate as the Escrow. I think using PayPal Gift makes it impossible for a chargeback to occur?

If someone can help with this I would be interested in trading. I am new to BTC and have, currently, about 0,005BTC so not enough to be worthwhile of anything.

I think you're confused. A chargeback is a forcible return of funds to the customer. Since you're the one sending the money as payment for coins, you'd be the one to issue a chargeback. The person selling the coins is the one who has to be cautious.

Also, a chargeback can occur even if the money is sent as "gift". For example, if the funds came from a linked credit card instead of your PayPal balance, the issuing bank can issue a chargeback.

And if you're in a country that's not the US or in Europe, it's even more difficult, the fees are even higher, and it can take over a week. To buy BTC I could either submit a bunch of private information to the exchange (yeah, that sounds like a good idea) that will take over a week to authenticate AND pay exorbitent international transfer fees ($30 per transfer) that can take up to seven days to transfer, or I could be charged a 25 - 40% premium to buy "locally" in my local currency, or I could build reputation on http://bitcoin-otc.com and use PayPal to buy instantly.

PayPal is a fucking maggot pile, but it's so convenient.

agree 100%

I just said 100% because anything more than that would be objected to by the mathematicians here !! :-)

agree ...agree....agree....

and the sad part is that people here haven't understood what a beautiful market that is waiting to BUY from them ....IF they cross this payment hurdle / trust


regards

Is there any way to buy BTC for PayPal and be secure as a seller? Like buying some item/gift card/voucher with PayPal and exchange that item instead?

Yeah, I mean you could theoretically use PayPal to purchase something like an Amazon gift card (or, maybe, a Visa/MC prepaid card), and trade that for BTC. But you will end up paying for fees and what not.

The real problem with PayPal is not sending money, it is accepting money. Because PayPal has a notorious history for seizing large accounts and refusing to return the money to it's rightful owner. There's nothing you can do in that situation as PayPal is not a bank in that it's not regulated and, thus, not FDIC insured.

Not only you can get scammed, you are also likely to get your PP account shut down. They really don't like bitcoins. My partner sold somebody BTC and the buyer mentioned he was sending payment for BTC in PP subject. Got his account blocked that same day.

Easy now.... too much hype isn't a good thing.

Where do I find cheap bitcoins? Most people are selling it super overpriced much more than the market value :(

i was just about to buy some bitcoins with paypal when i came across this.
i guess i have to look for alternatives.

Exactly. Plus bitcoin transactions can't be disputed. That's great if you're a merchant or a criminal, but if you are the poor slob who had your BTC stolen (or the merchant didn't deliver after you paid) you have no recourse.

At least a credit card company will help you get your money back if you get taken for a ride by a shady merchant.

never thought of it this way ...hmmm...

Too bad, PayPal seems pretty fast.

Great information!

While I understand paypal, why is it so damn hard to get it via western union?

The credit card companies and banks only help because they have a stake in it as well.  One loses money to them on a regular basis for charges on this or that.  So it's not really all that different from losing on a bad deal every now and then.  :-\

From where I am to get it into USA it takes Lmost 3 % commission and some bad exchange rates as well

Plus a lot of personal data if the amount exceeds some value ( differs country to country )

Western union handles the "unbanked " world ...i.e say when an new immigrant ( say to USA ) wants to send money to his grandma  in some developing world country ....... Not for two people who are Internet savvy and having bank accounts

I called local money gram and western union and was surprised by their rates ....both in the order of 3% for just a one way transfer

Absolutely true. Paypal BLATANTLY REFUSES to refund ANY TRANSACTION THAT IS NOT FOR A PHYSICAL PRODUCT.

I just learned this scam when I payed for a premium account at guru.com and they IMMEDIATELY DELETED MY ACCOUNT AND STOLE MY $35. I tried to refund with PayPal, but PayPal said NO WE REFUSE TO OFFER YOU A REFUND BECAUSE IT IS NOT A PHYSICAL PRODUCT WHERE WE CAN VERIFY TRACKING. The refund was DECLINED and I was subsequently NOT ALLOWED TO OPEN ANOTHER DISPUTE.

I went to my bank, and they also refused to refund, and send me to the fraud department where I could mail in a form saying that I was defrauded. But I still don't know if even my bank will refund the money.

So anyone who says "you could be scammed in PayPal" has NO IDEA WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT. Paypal WILL NOT FORCE A REFUND UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

I don't know much about bitcoin, but I do know it is NOT a physical product which means it is IMPOSSIBLE TO REVERSE. AND NOT JUST GIFT PAYMENTS - ANY TRANSACTION WHICH IS NOT FOR A PRODUCT CANNOT BE REVERSED.

The only person who can be scammed in PayPal for a SERVICE OR INTANGIBLE PRODUCT is the one Sending Money, not the ones receiving it. Because the seller could refuse to send the item or service that was paid for, without any way to get their money back because paypal will DECLINE ANY DISPUTE AND WILL NOT FORCE A REFUND.

SAFE METHODS TO USE PAYPAL:

If you are THE ONE PAYING FOR THE ITEM (BUYER) and you have ALREADY RECEIVED THE ITEM, then PayPal is PERFECTLY SAFE because there is NO WAY THE SELLER CAN REVERSE THE CHARGES.

If you are THE SELLER, and you have ALREADY RECEIVED THE MONEY then it is SAFE TO SEND THE ITEM with PayPal.


DANGEROUS WAYS TO USE PAYPAL:

If you are THE BUYER and you have concerns that YOU MIGHT NOT RECEIVE WHAT YOU PAID FOR, then it is DANGEROUS to use PayPal in this case.

If you are THE SELLER and you have CONCERNS THAT YOU MIGHT NOT GET PAID AFTER SENDING THE ITEM, then it is DANGEROUS to use PayPal in this case.


IN SHORT

If you have ALREADY RECEIVED your end of the deal, THEN YOU ARE SAFE. Now it's up to you to be honest.

If you have NOT RECEIVED your end of the deal, THEN YOU ARE NOT SAFE, if you send then their end first.


TIPS WHEN USING PAYPAL

If using PayPal and you are afraid the payment may be disputed, ALWAYS USE GIFT PAYMENTS. Gift payments CANNOT be disputed.

I wish more people thought like you

I think the exchanges have a vested interest in scarring the shutout of the direct seller buyer so they call PayPal a scam

Well if more people were smart and used their brains instead of just believing everything they read without verifying its validity, then the people would have more power and freedom instead of the corporate world taking advantage of all the people.

Market value is what people are willing to pay for it. You end up paying a hefty premium when using PayPal, because sellers (like I used to be), have to compensate for the fact that we deal with scammers. Its more or less a convenience premium, and is most definitely "market value." If you don't want to pay it, use a money transfer, or another method of transferring cash.


It makes absolutely no difference that you aren't a scammer. The fact of the matter is that this payment type is used by scammers.

Although it may seem old-fashoned, you do a wire transfer. The idea of exchanges isn't bad, its that everybody gave one a monopoly. Use alternates. There are entire threads here dedicated to various options.

HOW TO NOT BE SCAMMED IN THREE STEPS:

1) Trust no one
2) Use your brain
3) Don't transact unless you are 100% sure.

You cannot social engineer your way back into PayPal scamming by posting disinformation, sorry.

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f2/beware-paypal-gift-chargeback-fraud-will-defraud-sellers-784828.html
...and about a kajillion other Internet sources. Also, using gift payments for purchases is considered "fee avoidance" by PayPal, just one more reason to have your account frozen.

Forum users have already learned that it is you vs. the most sophisticated hackers and scam artists trying to defraud you out of Bitcoins. We are not talking Nigerian princes here, these are the ethic-less scum that get bank wires reversed after setting up fabricated bank accounts in rogue nation states, as supplemental income to their drug and human trafficking rings.

Offering to pay with PayPal? - few will take it; a forum search for "PayPal" tells potential recipients all they need to know.
Willing to take PayPal payments? - don't bother posting here about how smoothly it went for you until six months later.

Thanks for the answer

Could you please help me find those threads with alternatives / options



Regards

Unfortunately in Australia you're essentially limited to a verified mt gox account with wiretransfer, or a few other coin swapping services that run around the 6-7% rate and pretty bad exchange rate.

I've been trying to get cash into btc-e rather than mtgox, simply for the fact the buy price tends to be 5-10% lower.

Paypal has ripped me off $800 before. Bitcoins never has.

That arbitrage is lost now

I've been posting a lot about it on my blogs

@Coincrazy have a link handy?

http://mintaway.wordpress.com/2013/04/13/exchange-to-exchange-difference-at-about-the-same-time-april-12-2013-pdt-9-pm/

Makes sense

What about ordering a physical product from a company? They can't take that back either. Or would the escrow service be responsible of the loss?

I bought my first set of Bitcoins from a website with a credit card. That didn't last long but it was really easy. I placed a wire transfer after the recent dip a couple days ago and waited an hour while the teller filled out the form. I think it will take about 5 days and cost $30 for that too...

F*ck PP and f*ck their fees ... really, we have a Bitcoin here, so no need for PP anymore.

thank you for the useful information

There was a good paypal for bitcoin operator, think he quit after getting ripped off too many times.

PayPal seems like a nightmare for sellers, but is pretty nice for buyers.

And sometimes it's easier to sell a good product when your buyer knows he can reverse the payments if necessary.

Not if you can't get the product back.

It's not true IMHO :)

If you ask the recipient to make a new empty address for your transfer, and after transaction check here:

http://blockchain.info that address you can  :)

(  to make a new empty address for your transfer is only for easier check ;)

That's a good valid point.  Using blockchain, you can see if a payment went through even if your bitcoin client isn't up-to-date yet.  I suppose you can use the online clients, but I think people will agree with me that they are not secure enough these days and to prone to hack attacks.  However, people have to be very careful with their computers and how they are storing bitcoins.  You loose a drive and it is "too bad".  Back them up people and use alternate storage materials. 

Don't trust all the suckcoin sites like Paypal.

If the blockchain is competely public, people are still going to be able to work out who owns an address. From there anyone can see your transactions unless you make a complicated web of different addresses.

However true this post is, it is still unfortunate. I funnel around 600$  weekly easy, into my paypal from online ventures, and since paypal is deemed shit, (ive gotten scammed on ebay, they are fucking cunts)   Ive switched to dwolla, which is semi better, but apparently reading some posts here it is not by much.

This really shows the advantages of using BTC. a much more secure method of exchange for sellers. Thanks for posting!

But it would be really convenient for ppl to buy bitcoin that way though i know it's not really a good way.

Too bad to hear that as I just want to find way to use paypal to buy my first btc. Seems like the best way for me to get it started is doing bank transfer.

Thanks!

hate paypal with a passion.  understandable.

good thread

This question was already asked in this thread, but I didn't find an answer.
Is this site a SCAM?
http://bcchanger.com/

I would suggest not selling BTC for Paypal.

How else do we get BTC in the UK?.. I got £400 of UKash and can't use it anywhere. :-(

BTC-E is trustable, right?

Kinda. They have a sour taste in my mouth for essentially accepting a premined bribe to list something called NovaCoins.

The site is used by scammers for the most part, but the owner didn't create it to scam users.

I've done a little bit of BTC <-> LTC there and haven't had any issues... just a high withdraw fee on LTC (0.5)

I still don't get why one shouldn't use paypal to buy bitcoins.. if you can prove you sent the bitcoins, paypal will never sent the money back to the buyer..

If you can prove you sent the bitcoins and the buyer doesn't claim they were hacked, then PayPal can shut down both accounts for violating their AUP.

Plus the person can always claim their paypal account was hacked.

Nice tip, thanks.

My friend just learned this the hard way. The week the BC bubble burst...he was selling coins for nearly 25% more than Gox weighted average price. I was baffled that this was happening and told him it sounds too good to be true. But they buyers kept buying and the dollar signs took over the rationale portion of his mind. They were even contacting him outside of the But It Now auctions he had listed asking for more. It was then he started realizing the poorly written English and stopped it all.

By the end of last week...I think he lost a total of $1k+ after PayPal stated that all transactions were not made by the actually account owner...bc the accounts had been hacked. PayPal had then provided an example of one of the accounts' login history...in a 48 hour period, the account had logged in multiple times from somewhere in Mumbai when the account owner actually lived in Salt Lake City, UT.

HaHa, That is my exact story from this week. except i live on the east coast and it was about $1.300. Ebay wouldn't even flag the accounts after paypal reversed the transaction for a unauthorized transactions.

The safest way to buy/sell coins with paypal is to NOT do it..

+1

Paypal is the worst.

evil PayPal forsure

so is there a safe way of liquidising our bitcoins?

A lot of good advice here. I wasn't aware PP had a policy against currency exchange, and such a high freeze rate, so I'll be sure to stay away.

2 weeks ago I was able to buy my first bitcoin with PayPal from an ad on https://localbitcoins.com/
I had to have a FUNDED and confirmed PayPal account.
I went to Walmart and got a MoneyPak (fee) and deposited into PayPal.
It was a little confusing but got my bitcoin same day.
Now I need to see how much it actually cost me over exchange rate.

This was a great post. I learned my lesson the hard way. Thanks everyone for your contributions.

I've used localbitcoins before, and I even made a friend from it. Good service, and I can usually find coins UNDER market there.

This is an extremely enlightening discussion! 

I had a case where I bought a high-cost item from a source in China (REDFLAG I ignored).  Paid with PayPal (using a credit card as it's source), but never got the item (they sent a bogus tracking number).  Complained to PayPal, but they did nothing, so went to the credit card company with all of the details and they refunded the money (I'm assuming leaving PayPal holding the bag).

Other than that, I've not had a bad experience with PayPal - for 'normal' purchases.  I have learned some things here!

Cheers!

Good post #1! Was good to read :)

Considering the fundamental mismatch in formats, why do you think the CEO in an interview implied that Paypal may get involved with bitcoins some day down the road.

even with tradecoin and localbitcoin is best you meet the person face to face while doing a transaction, do not trust any local seller because they will ask you to bank in the money and you will never hear from them, to many scammer and scumbag around.

Ok Guys. I arrived at this topic a bit late which have costed me around 1500$

So I put BTC on eBay and it got sold within few hours. Buyer paid and his entire information was available with his phone #.

Did a google search and he have around 350+ feedback and confirmed his address. Paid him and every thing went well. he asked for 10 more and he said, he will send through Personal Payment. I read somewhere about scam and though Personal Payments cant be refunded.. But as soon as i sent him 10BTC on top of 1 BTC, he disputed and before i could even take any action, Money was refunded. also the eBay Transaction was disputed. Now i am power Seller /Top Rated seller on eBay and my transaction has got on hold.

I called them and they said, since it was not for purchase they cant do anything !  I called the police and they said, they do not deal with Cyber Crimes :S

I called the person and he got kinda confused and said he has not done anything. He has reported to FBI , Police and they are investing into that which is total crap. I have a tracker which told me that the email was opened from the same location the person is...

Interestingly I have contacts inside Paypal that can be used to investigate the issue. But since it is outside transaction I might be keeping it as last resort.

So I have all the proofs, found his entire info using google search and can buy further information. As of speaking he emailed me saying he has filed a case with FBI and my account has been locked out..

Should I start by telling him about the consequences and giving him sweet warning ?

Any Advises

Secondly, I just got two orders and received payment from them. Is it illegal to sell/purchase on eBay and if not then using eBay guidelines for virtual goods, can I be saved ? Or better I call and confirm ? I have seen few people shipping the paper with code on it. May be thats the reason for doing this ?

P.S If you are reading it, I am coming after you

My advice is to not use eBay or PayPal :P  Use an exchange.

Well said! eBay owns Paypal, and I don't like that. An exchange is certainly much better with less of a chance of being scammed.

That would require someone to officially recognize Bit-coin as a bona fide CURRENCY. Otherwise you are just buying and selling non tangible goods and computer bit strings, which, if paypal says you can't do with bitcoin, then you also can't do it with say a .Mp3 as well?

FinCen; virtual currency.

And who officially recognizes it as such enough for Paypal to be able to class it as one?

Since when is PayPal immune from FinCen? Stop acting like you can beat assholes at their own game.

Paypal will do whats best for paypal.

which is probably going to be at some stage in the future, to try and buy bitcoin/copyright it/make their own version and force it as a payment method on ebay/skype/kijiji and whatever else the monster eats.

The real problem with using Paypal is, they consider Bitcoin a competitor.  Truth is, Bitcoin is not just a competitor but a SUPERIOR competitor.

If you were running Paypal would YOU assist YOUR COMPETITOR in putting you OUT OF BUSINESS?  Think about it...I know I wouldn't!

And so using Paypal is risky for both buyer AND seller.  Why?  Because just like when e-gold was around and was better than Paypal, Paypal's user agreement does not allow for using the account to trade or exchange currencies.  They specifically put it in the user agreement that you would not do that in order to protect themselves.  They have a lot of licenses that they hold, and some of them are kind of unique and very specific depending on what locale the license is from.

Using Paypal as a buyer is risky because it gives them a reason to freeze your account.  And if you are doing business with that account it presents a real nightmare.  The thing with Paypal is, they are most likely to shut down or freeze your account when it's most advantageous to THEM, which in many cases (probably most) means when it's least advantageous to you.  For instance, when it has a high balance and you need that money to continue operating!

Paypal worships Murphy and his laws, attempting to imitate Murphy at every opportunity...

"whatever else the monster eats."

Tell me about it!

A lot of people say that Meg Whitman lost when she ran for Governor of California due to the fact she might have had an illegal maid working for her.  I actually think that there were a lot of eBay sellers that were California voters who voted for the other person because of their long memories of what eBay became on her watch.

But that's just my opinion.

One of the deep dark dirty secrets Paypal doesn't want people to know is, they are a licensed money service bureau in several states, California being one of them.  The laws in California state that all money service bureaus MUST provide money sent to someone within one week, that they are not allowed to hold money any longer than that.  It's rather ironic because Paypal freezes accounts for 6 months, sometimes longer.  But if you file a complaint with the right people (or even tell Paypal either on the phone or via email that is your next move) then someone at Paypal will call you back from that mysterious department that supposedly never takes any calls and work things out with you much faster.

If they lose their money service license in California they are likely out of business for a while, although given the status of the California economy they can likely just pay them off somehow (big fines, no jail time) since the government is broke.

Great info thank you for posting that ;)

i try to avoid paypal while dealing with cryptocurrencies.

Very interesting and fascinating information, I'll have to go and do more research for this. The problem as I see it is that in paypal's attempt to be fair they include features that if one is not honest they can abuse in order to try and get more reward for themselves.

Paypal...

It's only good for ebay, and rarely nothing else... (like bitcoins)

how come you don't just make a Mt Gox gift card with the code right on the card, send it to them physically with tracking number. As far as I know physical products with tracking are covered under paypal and ebay's  tos.

With all the cryptocoins being sold on ebay, paid via Paypal, i'd have thought that they would seem to have accepted its trade.

If you sell with PayPal, they will catch you:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=194646.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=194646.0)

I hear that cryptocoins aren't officially currency, just 'financial instruments'.

Also, doesn't ebay have a 'coins' section where currency is bought and sold, via Paypal.

Coins are physical, BitCoins are not. Selling BitCoins on paper or plastic, sending the buyer a physical item, is not against their ToS.

Can you sell services via ebay/paypal?

Where the only thing sold is work done?

Aren't bitcoins evidence of work done?

Wow, I didn't know this. Does the same restriction apply to other online payment systems such as OkPay?

Yes, you can have a buyer pay you for a service such as "cutting the grass". The payment must be noted as a service and the details must be included in the transaction notes/info. When PayPal reviews the case, they take this into account. They actually have Seller protection too.

You could pay for a programmer who writes code.

No, PayPal doesn't look at the Block Chain or anything. Since it is a violation of their policy - it doesn't matter.

I guess yes, since they may have problems with taxation

Aren't bitcoins evidence of work done?

Thanks for posting this.  Seems like buying local is the way to go.  Any suggestions on how to meet in person to buy?   Any smartphone apps that can be used when meeting in person that one could suggest using?

No, not at all.

It seems like you can buy physical bitcoins, and then exchange those in person.  https://www.casascius.com/ offers physical bitcoins (might be sketchy, as I haven't tried).

Paypal is a pain in the ass, i'm hoping alt coins and the likes stabilize and become the new way for transferring funds

Yes they are, a pps/pplns pool awards btc for work done.

In fact the whole bitcoin concept is built on rewards for work done.

Unlike fiat currency which can just be printed/minted at will.

PayPal definitely does not endorse the use of Bitcoin, They won't even offer their insurance on a Bitcoin purchase!

Paypal is shit.

Thanks for the info.

This guy makes a living selling BitCoin through PayPal.

His method is how it can correctly be done:

http://www.BitCoinRanger.com (http://www.BitCoinRanger.com)

He notified PayPal in advance of what he was doing so that they would work with him, instead of flagging his account.

I made the mistake of using bitcoinranger.com and sending payment through Dwolla, that was over 2 weeks ago and I don't have my $250 in USD or Bitcoins.   Dwolla told me Greg Mathews has my funds, he is claiming its Dwolla's issue.   I won't  use either service again. 

Hi,

I totally know the feeling but the other way around. I am new to this and was looking for a couple of bitcoins. I like the idea of an online currency, I thought it would be cool to use it on websites and encourage this concept, and mining is beyond me after looking into everything under the sun. I am mining yacoins, wow, but I'll be damned if I manage to buy 1 bitcoin, leave alone an asics. Even got into Second Life but apparently it's not supported anymore.

Then a guy offered to sell some on a chat, (coinchat.org, that is probably a trap for you to register into coinlenders, probably another scam, I don;t know really but I go paranoid now) as soon as he got the money he went totally silent. He actually said "I am going to take a piss, then I send you your coin... (needless to say that this flies only when you are hiding behind your pc at home) I reported it to paypal, but now I have to wait a couple of days before I can escalate it. By that time the guy is long gone.

He gave me a verified paypal address so it looked legit. I was making a test with 40 bucks and lost that, but I could have lost much more had he sent over the first payment I would have gone for more. Thank god I only had to deal with a noobie scammer.

By the way for mining I found a guy that sell his spot with btf from April2012, that too looks like a scam now. Actually after that I really have the feeling that this bitcoin business is too cuthroat, I might be wrong, but so far I thought bitcoin to be the money of the online geeks in fact it turns out to be the money of the online crooks.

Websites go like flies mtgox, miningunites, some others offer crazy stuff like hedge funds in the Caiman Islands in bitcoins, talking a bout 75% ROI... donno, got burned, now I have cold feet.

So far ... very bad experience and ubernercenary behaviors, far worst than with our "real" money because you are not even able to look at people straight in the eyes.

This is the scamming email: peter.harris73@yahoo.com from Australia? or maybe lives nextdoor...

Sent to:Peter Harris (The recipient of this payment is Non-US – Verified)
Email:    peter.harris73@yahoo.com
Amount sent:-$38.00 AUD (equals -£25.33 GBP)
Fee amount:$0.00 AUD
Net amount:-$38.00 AUD

Same as above, Peter, no matter how much you think you are clever, you are a lowlife scumbag and I am coming after you.

Fair enough, but some people actually buy stuff everyday and actually pay for it. I was done 40 bucks I paid with paypal for btc, and I doubt I'll eve see my money back, and I haven't seen a glimmer of btc. Now, according to "paypal" I have to wait until the 27 of May to be able to escalate, by that time the scammer, that I bet didn't have a single bitcoin, must have cashed out the money.

Good post on why PayPal is not the answer.

using Paypal for a while, never noticed there's such a policy, thanks for reminding everyone here!

Thanks for the useful info! I had no idea that Paypal could issue refunds even for cash gifts.

Speratom - you were wise to limit your exposure.  There are a lot of scammers hereabouts for sure, but there are also some good decent people, too. Helpful ones, even.  I recommend you lurk, a lot. Here's some very good advice: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=119896.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=119896.0)

It's a PITA to convert fiat to BTC, but not impossible.  Getting cash into the exchanges is also a bit spendy with the fees, especially wiring fees.  But it's less spendy than losing a lot to scammers. Take heart that you lost relatively little compared to too many others.  That said, I hope you get your money back from the bastard.

Personally, I think paypal is good for the consumer, bad for the producer. (consumer can reverse transaction and steal money)

I was one of those newbies who recently asked for some kind soul to sell me some bitcoins (which I paid via PayPal).

I think the risk cut both ways, and in all transactions (online or offline), you have to take some risk, and take measures to minimize the risk to an acceptable level.

For example, the seller asked for me to wait a couple of days before he will transfer the bitcoins to me (after PayPal payment). I took a risk because I see that the seller has been a member of this forum for awhile, and it will be unlikely he will risk his reputation here for a couple of hundred bucks (though I will soon know whether my judgement is true).

On the other hand, I am grateful to the seller for taking a chance with me, and I tried my best to put his doubts at risk.

Don't real life transactions work the same way?

Thanks for the useful info! I had no idea that Paypal could issue refunds even for cash gifts. Scary

I know, we initially talked about 2 BTC, but I wanted to start with a small amount, I bet he didn't have the beginning of a bitcoin, else he could have gone for much more after the first 'test' transaction. As you see it's a kid, scamming me to scam addfocus, I mean.. Anyway I was lucky, I know.

I think maybe going local and meet the people would be a solution...

I agree but it works differently depending on the nature of the social relations. In a  small village where everybody knows eachother, you will be ostracized, meaning socially punished. In a big city even so-called friends just stop retuning your calls for a fiver.

great way to explain it :)

Too many paypal scammers

paypal is a bit rotten anyway.
There are much better alternatives like skrill or neteller or even sending money trough the mail ;)

Thank you for the advise

So far I had no issue buying stuff via Paypal, but have to say I am using it quite rarely...

Have you ever had an experience so you can share
 this Theory Or It Is Just Your Theory ?...

Its a shame because some of us have our money in paypal.

PayPal will always decide against the seller when bitcoins are concerned.
Additionally they have been deleting bitcoin listings and freezing seller accounts recently.
They dont like btc and btc doesnt like them.

Easier said than done, but some of us are trying our hardest.......

transfer it to your bank account as soon as you can then, because I'd rather have my money in a furnace and hand a 4 year old the on and off switch to play with.

true that, they are really cracking down on anything bitcoin related recently.

Not really. They kind of hated bitcoin for quite a while.

Paypal froze my account when I sent £300 to my partner while I was in the UK and she was in the Philippines.  They lied to me on 3 separate occasions about why and what they were doing to remedy the problem.  I spent a total of about 4 1/2 hours on hold while trying to talk to them about it. They still owe me money and I have to wait 180days to get it back even though no credit cards were involved.  Wild horses would not drag me near Paypal ever again.  Or Western Union and Moneygram for that matter. 

Moneygram have also lied by repeatedly saying that my bank was refusing my debit card.  I got them and Visa on the phone simultaneously while they did the card processing and it turned out that Moneygram cannot process Natwest and Santander Visa Debit cards but they won't tell you when you try to register or use your cards on their website.  It wasn't until I had Visa and Moneygram talking about what was going wrong together on the phone that they fessed up to it. Even afterwards they wouldn't come straight out with it and were trying to insist that my bank was declining my card and it was somehow my fault despite accepting that their payment system was presenting the card details wrongly to Visa.  Given that I had recently got off a flight from the Philippines and used my cards in Manila, in Seoul, Korea, and in Tesco, UK and innumerable coffee shops along the way,and I knew I was well in credit, their argument hardly held water from the start, which is why I checked.

Western Union have blocked me for that same transaction with my partner and implied that it was an illegitimate transaction but would not explain why when challenged to produce any evidence supporting it. 

Moral of the story?  Don't trust Paypal or any other US based payments system, especially if you are a non US citizen sending money to another non US citizen and you are both in non US territories.  You will be treated automatically as stupid and criminal on any occasion where customer support is required.  You will get "Blame the customer and deny everything" as the first line of customer support.  You will always be at a disadvantage because you are not a US citizen in the US.

It's not about whether you meet the requirements for them to do business with you, it's about whether they are fit and proper to be handling your money responsibly with your interests in mind rather than only theirs.

These companies do not fall within the parameters I set for trustworthy and reliable money transfer, PERIOD.
There are plenty of alternatives for bitcoins and fiat transfers with or without currency exchange involved.

Personally, for foreign currency transfers I'd suggest OrbitRemit for small and regular fiat and bitcoins for large occasional amounts.

I closed my PayPal account and do not intend to reopen it because I am just against the whole idea of PayPal. I've heard too many horror stories about them and their fascist "business" practises. And Bitcoin for PayPal is a kind of oxymoron for me. They just don't go together very well.

I dont know if paypal will ever openly allow users yo exchange bitcoins through them but i read they was concidering allowing users to pay for goods with bitcoins

paypal is very scary if you look at it , even the news of refund of BFL from paypal
is changing to refund only for BTC payment.
from
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=266945.180

Even tho I never get scammed yet  ;D but yeah I also hate how Paypal works,
just hate the dispute system.

Ye paypal is by criminal for criminal

Great info. Thanks. Although I have been hearing about BTC for quite some time it is only recently that I have actually started reading about it in detail. It is indeed amazing how many benefits BTC have.

Thanks so much for the info! I had heard of people doing this before, but will most likely not be doing it now. I sure wish you could trust people, however it does seem that in most cases (particularly with BTC) if it seems too easy, it's probably a scam. Thanks.

Paypal keeps a close eye on 'gifted payments'. No ones just recieves 100s of $$$ in gifts from random people from all over the world. After you receive a certain amount of 'gifts' paypal will freeze your account until they decide you can have access to it again!

It is understandable Paypal is least liked. What is other option available to buy a few coins just for fun?

Cash? Personal safety concern
Cash deposit? LocalBitcoins is dominating by early adapters w/ established rep and rest just can't find a deal
Exchange? Lengthy process of registration and verification, fees to send small amount, plus voluntarily add yourself to gov bitcoin watchlist.

Any other reliable venues for market priced BTC?

It's kind of surprising that people still need educating about Paypal.  I know for a fact they have been stealing money since 2003 as that is when I first had funds frozen by them.  Their policy when your account is suspended is "talk to the hand".  They make some arbitrary decision that your account is tainted, keep the money and refuse to discuss why.  This has been their policy for at least a decade, but muppets continue to sign up and use them.  I am amazed an entrepreneur has not been able to displace them in the market - perhaps bitcoin will assist in this.  If someone can come up with a painless and smooth way to transfer fiat to bitcoin and vica versa, I think they'll make more money than Elon Musk and Satoshi Nakamura combined...

If you follow the rules from paypal you will not got problem at all. I work with pp since 2007, for 7 year now. Got sometime the account frozen, but within a few days is unfrozen again.

If i compare fraud possibility over paypal or creditcard and bitcoin then bitcoin is the winner, is 100% impossible to got your money back, if somebody try to cheating you. If i pay with pp or cc i can claim my money back.

If someone is committing fraud then you are correct in stating PP or CC providers are "safe".  The issue I have is that PP have a reputation for making very bad decisions somewhat arbitrarily and not entering into any form of mediation if that decision is against you.

Everyone involved in bitcoin should read the book "The Sovereign Individual - Mastering the Transition to the Information Age" by James Dale Davidson to help them really understand the implication that bitcoin brings to humanity in offering a truly free and unregulated medium of exchange.  The biggest issue that will face this currency in the near team is the opposition of nation states (PP is a proxy of the US government in this regard).

As soon as a sovereign nation gets on board with bitcoin/crypto currencies (Iceland anyone?) and offers safe haven to unregulated free markets with a fair exchange for services to maintain society, I think they will become the leading economy in the world and show other antiquated models the way of the future.  There will be ALOT of opposition to any nation state endorsing crypto currencies by the powers that be, but I think the competitive advantages of any move will attract capital like there is no tomorrow and invalidate any issues over time.

The biggest worry is that the United States will intervene militarily to maintain the status quo of fiat currencies against any state that opens the door to crypto.  This is a real risk - wars could be fought over this in the near future.

I did have some problems with buying bitcoins since I did now want to wait until mtgox or btstamp aproves my account. I wanted the coins now.
I looked into localbitcoins.com but I considered the price to be way to high compared to other payment processors.
I then found bitcoini.com an bulgarian website that sells and buys bitcoins via wire transfer. I made the deposit and then realised that there is nothing that can make this transaction 100% safe, I was relieng on trust for this transaction to go forward. 12 hours later I had my bitcoins for trade. I am very happy the guy did not run off with my money.
Be carefull from where and whom you buy your bitcoins from, for now you have to be patient when you change FIAT to BTC!

Yes, because PayPal operates almost exactly like a bank.  They are a bank.  Just say it. I use PayPal, and now PayPal is a bank. 

Ok then.  I stand to be frozen out because of the products I sell, and bitcoin use....

But this is not the first time pp an I have danced....you need to know how to grab them by the ear and get what you need.  Still, they are almost worse than a bank.  At least if there's a problem at the bank, even if the screw you, there's a guy to hold accountable.....

YES! Game on, PayPal.  You see, they really don't care about the mom and pop shops on ebay and etsy--- you are small change.  They will just freeze your account ALL THE WHILE EARNING INTEREST ON YOUR FUNDS.

Were about to do a reversal on that institution.  Mark my words.

@Snappahead Briefly that's basically something similar moreover they will become the leading economy in the world and show other antiquated models the way of the future and that's all !

It is clearly mentioned on paypal terms, so we must not use this for exchange.

Well you do have some point there, been there before..Actually there are still a lot of scammers that do this trick.. However, I think you cant try to bypass these dispute. I think I heard that there are specific days in which the sender of the money in Paypal can file disputes. But you would be so lucky if they would do it..lol.. Thanks for this information mate.. It do help a lot in understanding how risky Paypal is.

for buying bitcoins through PayPal is not excellent for sellers 

I'm super glad that I do not use paypal.  I considered it as an alternative in purchasing btc however another forum I am affiliated with (Rimbit) also advised against making this mistake.  *phew*

if exchanging other currencies for bitcoin is best done person to person, wouldn't it weights down the benefits of bitcoin by a lot?

Ive seen a lot of people do that and have never been scammed

But I mean I guess I know what you mean anyways so whatever

Dosen't matter if your friends didn't get scammed, selling Bitcoin for Paypal is ridding yourself of any chance of regaining those said Bitcoins should anything go wrong with the transaction, and also giving the buyer a lot more leverage over you (infinite leverage in this case), you shouldn't relay on chance and buyers remorse my friend.

I guess the best way to do this with paypal is if the person is right in front of you and does the transaction live, if not it does become hard. I men it has taken 3 weeks to approve an account on coinbase (others like poloniex were faster though).

O.K. I've read all and it does seem that Paypal is risky for trading. But, I couldn't see any suggestions for the alternative means of trading? How should one trade bitcoins for money? Thanks in advance!

PayPal seems like a nightmare for sellers, but is pretty nice for buyers.

And sometimes it's easier to sell a good product when your buyer knows he can reverse the payments if necessary.

Thanks for this post! I have heard stories of friends who were sellers ripped off by PayPal through disputes with buyers, so this makes perfect sense!

One of the best and comprehensive post to read to all the newer peeps that are joining the crypto world!

Better safe than sorry  :)

It's hard to trust anything with bitcoin if that's the case, but isn't it why bitcoin is here for?

Glad to have read this thread. Scammers have been known to abuse reverse transaction option from paypal, friend was a victim of it but luckily wasn't that much of a loss, will have to stay away from paypal then.

Another way, less stealthy, find a known location where anyone can meet to buy Bitcoins with cash in person. No meeting in random spots down dark alleys at midnight but there should be a Bitcoin coffeshop or I should be able to go to any Starbucks with cash and get Bitcoins.

Now here is the problem with Cash, with Cash you gotta worry about getting killed for it, or beaten up and robbed when it's a big enough amount. Bitcoins aren't cheap anymore, they are $100+ a coin now so now it's in the dangerous territory that drugs inhabit of being just cheap enough where people can afford it but just expensive enough that people will rob each other over it. These dangers exist primarily for the buyer not the seller imo.  :) :) :)