Bitcoin Forum

You Can Always Leave (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fasTSY-dB-s&feature=endscreen&NR=1)

A nice little animation about taxation.  A good watch for anyone curious about the "social contract" between a citizen and his government.

Government explained.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUS1m5MSt9k

Government explained 2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhSqzANQvbk

p.s. good video that you linked :)

I saw these a while back ;D  They're good vids tho, fun to see them again.

that was quite possibly the most naive presentation I've ever seen.  the cloud is an idiot who keeps suggesting that if you don't pay your taxes and a policeman comes to the door and you draw a gun you will die... therefore if you don't pay your taxes you die. holy shit boy, do you really think it's that simple?  we stopped jailing paupers hundreds of years ago.

are you going to privately fund a highway?  ROFL!

how about getting some cops to lock up Jeff., guess you'd need taxes for that huh?

I was waiting for the skeleton to tell the idiot to leave and then he broke down and asked what if the Indians want their land back?   oh my fucking god boy, do you actually subscribe to this nonsense?


look me up in a few decades after your mommy stops wiping your ass and paying your Internet bill!

In a few decades, someone will be wiping your ass.  That's not a joke.

Here's a fun experiment: stop paying taxes, stop filing taxes, ignore the IRS when they ask to audit, and see what happens.  Have fun!

dude I know a scoundrel who owes the fed more than 50 million and he walks around free.  so what's gonna happen? it's been more than a decade... come on what are they gonna do?

I, on the other hand, pay my taxes because I feel a duty to do so.

and in a few decades I'll still be able to wipe my own ass just fine. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2291254/New-drug-developed-using-compound-red-wine-help-humans-live-150.html

Doubtful, but, at least you're hopeful.  I assume you have no background in genetics, medicine, or medical machinery, if you believe any of that is true.

The point is, the man you refer is a "scoundrel", implying he has done wrong by not paying taxes.  Certainly, some people get off the hook, but how many people will avoid taxes before the IRS starts taking names?  It's because of people like you, Mr. Patriot, he who has been brainwashed into this duty (for I assume you were serious earlier when you said you were), that taxation continues, and the "scoundrel" walks free until the IRS deems it appropriate to take him on.  After all, the average man earns a measly 1 million during his life time; unless this "scoundrel" is already a millionaire, nothing anyone can do will extract that money from him.  What's he gonna do?  Nothing.  He can do nothing in his life if he owes the IRS 50 million, for any significant amount of cash he owes will be swallowed.  If not, the IRS need to get on their game.

"Come on what are they gonna do?"  Watch the video again.  It explains exactly what they do.  First they'll ask nicely.  Then they'll demand.  Then they'll threaten.  Then it's jail time.  If you resist the police, you die.  You saw what happened when someone resists police force, did you not?  For any reason, whether you killed a guy, or avoided taxes.  What do you think will happen if this "scoundrel" is caught?  What do you think will happen if people realize nothing happens to this "scoundrel"?  You may taxes willingly, but if enough people decided not to, or if enough wealthy people decided (which they already have, by putting most taxes on people like you), then it's the use of force.  It doesn't matter if you feel it's your duty or not.  Taxes will be paid.

nonsense, you just like to hear yourself talk.  the IRS can and does do nothing,  wish and want as you may America is not the amerika you dream it to be.  and you are always welcome to leave (when you turn 18, that is).   follow my link young naive one... the article from great Britain.

Anyone and everyone who is an American citizen can tell you that the IRS is nothing to fuck with.  You cannot be a born American if you don't even know this; I won't believe it.  Are there no schools in Connecticut?  How the hell do people like you happen?  Help me understand how you happened.

Anyone, anyone, on this forum who is American, can back me up on this: the IRS can and does everything it can to the extent of the law, and then beyond the law.  Simply because you have not experienced this yourself does not mean it doesn't happen.  There are a plethora of examples online describing what a nightmare the IRS is: I made it easy for you, see here (http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/02/28/tax-audit-horror-stories-irs/).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wesley_Snipes#Tax_conviction

you are so conflicted, young one.  you said I am a fool because I feel a duty to pay tax (to support the military, education and old people) and then you say anyone who doesn't pay taxes is a fool.  which will it be?

What the fuck are you talking about?



Answer this direct conflict, first.  You can begin with the following words:  "I am wrong about the IRS because"

I'm not wrong about the IRS because the conviction here is based on a conspiracy charge.  this is fundamentally different than not paying your taxes.  conspiring to commit a crime is a jail able offense. is this really the best you can find?  look up ruby ridge, young one.  

You guys are discussing what's called an "ignorance tax (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=169198.msg1808809#msg1808809)".  There are resources in that thread you can use to learn more.

what he said, ignorant one

Point remains: do you, or do you not, have to pay said tax?  And if you do not pay it, will the IRS act, yes or no.

it depends on what you want in life. if you want a bank account, car loan, mortgage or a job... you'd better learn to pay the taxman.  if you can live off the grid then you probably pay little to no tax.

Bitcoin a currency disassociated from any nation, might have to build it's own and  not necessarily with physical borders.

Really?  No tax?  So no sales tax?  No property tax?  No SS tax?  No taxes at all?

The only way you can accomplish that is by going homeless, or living off welfare.  If homelessness and welfare are your idea of an American dream, kudos.  You've been successfully brainwashed.

Wouldn't mind it if Bitcoin dropped all these imaginary borders.

omg dude.  I know you want to be right in an argument with me and I'm frustrating the piss out of you but you don't get it.  it's much easier to live off the grid than you think.  I do pay taxes, but I have also spent time living off the grid.  if you can grow food or acquire it and you can find shelter it's really not as hard as you think. homeless can be a lifestyle choice, but it is most often used to describe mentally Ill men a large percentage of whom were Vietnam era soldiers and sailors.  those Indians in your video were "homeless".  repeat after me: Mike Christ still has much to learn

It is apparent that neither Mike nor Viceroy has read the links I put in my post.  You have to pay taxes IF you use federally connected activities to earn your "income".  That's a pretty narrow definition.  FUD and deceit play a big role in financially supporting the US government.

true enough but I did spend 10 minutes I will never get back watching the OP's hilarious video.

I do have much to learn.  However, because you've failed to learn when you were my age, and thus decided you would stop learning because you've "had enough", you're now completely disconnected with the real world.  I take pride in knowing I have much to learn, and I never want to stop.  You, on the other hand, will never get it.  I don't need to prove I'm correct; I don't think there's anyone here who considers your arguments worthwhile.  Everything you've said has been a reflection: hell, there's even one here.


All you must do is shut your eyes, close your ears, and proclaim you are right before ever having been shown why you're wrong at almost every level.  Why?  For stupid reasons.  Mostly bigotry, but I assume the rest is because you're too high to care.

Repeat after me:  Ignorance is bliss.


Really sorry; I was caught up in a pointless fight.  Thing is, battling the IRS, even when they're wrong, is time-consuming and can be costly.  I've recently learned of a prospective governor of Nevada who plans on severing ties with the IRS; this is the first time I've heard of anyone actually confronting the IRS and telling them to stay out of their lives.

why do people tend to do so well here, rather than somewhere like somalia? Why do so many of our children grow up to do well for themselves and provide for themselves? ok we got this bitchen market thing going on, but why does it work so well for us? we have a 15 trillion dollar gdp with a country of 300million. We have our share of resources, but nothing exceptional like some countries. So why do we do so well? It's our entire system. It is our school system, which yeah could be better, but looking at some countries, it could be a hell of a lot worse too. It's our infrastructure and roads, and sure there can be private roads, there are private roads, but not everywhere and it is useful for my business to be able to get materials from a wide range of places, as well as product to a wide range of people. I also benefit from having employees that can actually read and write, as well as customers who are smart enough and able to earn income above what they need to survive, so that they can shop at my shop.

The two most retarded ideologies ever thought up, are communism and pure libertarianism. One thinks the government can do everything for you and society, and the other thinks the free market can do absolutely everything for you and society.

Some things shouldnt be in the private market, like prisons. Somethings should

mike, stop and think  BEFORE you start writing.  nobody cares what you think.  learn that to be true now and you might succeed.  keep acting like you are the answer and you'll end up miserable.  nobody cares what you think, mike.

well said electric beef

Hendrickson's site is full of people who have traded some mails with the IRS and ended up with a check (One of the links I posted - "Every which way but loose" aaEWWBL).  It's also full of people who didn't have to trade any mails - they just made an "educated" filing and the IRS handled it properly the first time (Another link, "More victories", which has several pages of scanned refund checks).

I studied the EWWBL pages for a while to conclude that the government is not as depraved as (I assume) you show in your video.  Or perhaps they are, but they aren't (yet?) willing to go public with the "violate the law because we need revenue" strategy to all their peons.  They have an image to protect, and that means we can still get them to follow the laws.

Is it really so outlandish to think that removing government monopoly on the industries it controls might be a good thing?

I've seen a few stories about people battling the IRS and eventually winning, without having to resort to lawyers.  Right, it's that image which keeps anyone from questioning the government; because most everyone pays their taxes (or at least, pays whatever taxes that are automatically swallowed by sales, property and whatever's taken out of their paycheck), the government hasn't generally been open about forcing their citizens to pay up.  Rather, they use the schools they own to beat the idea into children that "everyone pays their fair share" etc., so by the time your brain's been fried and out of high school, you're ready to go to work (sometimes college, but in my area, most people stick with working.)  Nobody really questions why they pay taxes; they mostly just know it goes into roads and pays for ambulances.  My personal beef with it stems from paying for war and social security; I wouldn't mind paying taxes, if I could control how those taxes were spent.  I have no control over that, nor do I control how much I pay.  Even if one disagreed with complete anarchy, I don't believe the system we have now is preferable or functional long-term.  (We could refer to ancient Rome as an example of a powerful society which stumbled and fell.)

Anyway, it's easier when your citizens aren't well versed in politics or tax law.  Just so happens, public schools will never mention anarchy or even bother with alternatives to our current system; communism is painted evil and the military can do no wrong.  It's a cycle, and one that's being broken through the Internet.

Do you have personal experience with what happens? I'm assuming you don't. As someone else said, you're not as wise as you think.

I've never claimed to be the slightest bit wise, else I wouldn't ask questions.  However, I am certain America isn't going to sit around and let its citizens simply not pay taxes; after all, if evading or altering your taxes was legal, what use do we have of the IRS?  Let's get rid of them, since taxation is not enforced.

I told you the penalty... they seize your bank account and garnish your wages.  the IRS is not evil, mike.  nor is the fed.  it's just a big group of people with calculators.  want to control the flow of taxes... become a politician.  stop hating mike, this country is great.  you don't know how good you have it.

As I thought. You're only speculating. You don't have any fucking idea how the process works.

I can only imagine that you're some young rebel in search of a cause. Go get 'em!

Thanks, you too.

Actually, it isn't even that severe. It's mostly a little mail and conversations with reps over the phone. It's about as benign as you could imagine.

I've been telling him that across 200 posts.  well said and good night.

I know a guy who owes more than 50 million... he a piece of shit con man... but he drives his caddy around all day without a care in the world.  gnite.

I suppose the best you can do is cite some singular outstanding story rather than cite from an overwhelming majority of cases or personal experience.

Fear of your government has you right where they want you.

Somehow, I doubt that.

Sounds like it to me.

How so? You're making a LOT of assumptions about my behavior, most of which are entirely unfounded.

Seems to be the theme here.

Your posting history.

Your fears of a police state. Your fears of the tax man. Your fears of, as you are so fond of saying: "Men in blue suits". Your fears of confiscation of property.

Since identity and records play such a strong role in your world view, I suggest you watch Woman in the Dunes, a movie which explores that theme. It's considered to be one of the great films. To refuse to watch it because you disagree with me is to cheat yourself. Trailer: http://mubi.com/films/woman-in-the-dunes

From there, you can continue to remedy your cinematic ignorance by watching Sansho the Bailiff, a movie which explores the best and worst that humanity has to offer. It is considered to be one of the greatest films ever made. Trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=076MrMynyak

Good night now.  

I think you are describing yourself.   You fear them so much you freak out when you hear anyone else questioning them and proceed to attack the person, often going so far to call them names.

All we do is ask legitimate questions regarding the validity of authority.

You think I act out of fear? No. I do not fear a police state. I do not fear the tax man. I do not fear men in blue costumes. I do not fear confiscation of property.

(Now that's a movie. The book series is even better.)

Those things concern me, they may even cause me a bit of worry, and certainly some anger, but not fear. I do not fear the state. I hate it.

Dear teens, I will share with you a Spanish adage:
"The devil knows more because he's old, than because he's the devil"

People who are older than you will most likely be right about life than you can imagine.
Respect your elders. You can't learn Experience, it is acquired by living it.

You know that living standards in Somalia have improvded since the collapse of the state there right? http://www.peterleeson.com/better_off_stateless.pdf

Yes.

I notice you didn't address any of the claims made in the video linked.

I saw the film on opening day, 1984. I read the books years before.

"The spice must flow." Ultimately, Dune was a metaphor for OPEC. The movie was interesting, the books better. There's some real cinema treasures when you're ready.

He's a Daily Mail believer, explains everything, lols.

In the UK we step very carefully around Daily Mail believers, they're like ... how can I put it .. complete and utter tools of the state. IF you try any reason or logic with them they tend to start screaming and smoke comes out their ears, no seriously :D

You could stick a burning branch in their face and say "LOOK FIRE IS HOT FFS!!"

But if the Daily Mail tells them its cold, they'll be saying its cold whilst they burn at the stake.

Daily Mail believers are seriously the sheep of the sheeple.

Some people are obligated by the law to pay because their ability to the the income depends on the federal government ("federally connected activities"), while others are not obligated.  This latter group is deceived into believing that they have to pay.  Like I keep saying, "ignorance tax".

I would assume that the IRS are like the UK customs where you never, ever want to get into battle with them because you will lose.   The problem stems from the list of creditors where they are always on the top. 

The UK customs can do things that the police can only dream of, like walking into any property, seizing any form of vehicle and holding any person accused of any tax related crime in the past 20 years - all without evidence, just some form of suspicion!

If you do anything to stop them, you are committing an offence!

I think both sides are uninformed. Both are wrong and both are right.
The IRS will definitely get your ass if there is an audit and you blatantly leave very clear traces of tax evasion.
On the other hand the case that Viceroy is mentioning might be a case of tax avoidance strategies (different from evasion) and a very good team of accountants covering the scammer's ass. Also, btw, Viceroy's claim that the guy he knows is a scammer is alleged.

I remember reading about a guy who avoids paying taxes, but the only reason he's not being arrested is because he          now lives on his own compound, is heavily armed, and grows his own food and generates his own power. Basically, the only reason he is left alone is because they police figure it'll be too much trouble to go after him, guns blazing. So as long as he's just doing his own thing, they're leaving him alone.
Does anyone remember what the notorious gangster Al Capone was sentenced to life in prison for?

Also, I was disappointed that the video did not touch on a rather important part of the Social Contract. Specifically, what are the terms, and what is owed? Typically, in a contract, one party owes an obligation to another, and the contract is in force until that obligation is paid. So...

• Is the Social Contract a certain amount of debt that a citizen has amassed while being born, growing up, and living in a country? If yes, then that amount of debt should be a specific number, and one should be able to pay it off. If the number is "infinity" or "your life," that's not a debt contract, that's slavery.
• Is the Social Contract a sort of post-paid services agreement, like a cell phone bill, that you have to pay after using? If that's the case, then you should be able to get a bill for the things you actually used, and at least have an option to pay for extra things you want and not pay for things you don't want. It doesn't matter if someone is stupid or smart enough to know what they want or need. That choice really shouldn't be up to anyone but the person agreeing to the contract. Otherwise it's called fraud, where you are signed up for services you never asked for, and charge with a bill you can't fight (some magazine companies do this).
• Is the Social Contract a rental agreement, that says that as long as you live here on this land, you have to pay rent to cover the land and all the fees that it entails? If that's the case, then there should be a certain price that you can pay to just buy the property outright. There should be an option to go from being a renter to being an owner. Yet there isn't, and the only option is to rent, regardless of how much you pay. This thing may be the only example that goes counter to "everything is for sale," since even if you own billions, instead of offering to sell the property to you, the government will just charge you higher rent. Because they can.
• And by the way, just leaving isn't an option, either. As long as you are a citizen, even if you live overseas, you typically still have to pay taxes back to your country of origin. You could renounce your citizenship, but that typically puts you on a shit list of whatever country you renounced from, meaniing it's only worth the risk if you already have a ton of money at the time to begin with.

Again, guys, you have to be careful at choosing words.
Evasion isn't the same as avoidance. The former is illegal, the second one it is not.

Exactly right!  And you always have to wonder, if you don't understand the law, are you missing a simple method of legally avoiding taxes?  This is why I keep providing links.  There is a lot of evidence on losthorizons.com showing that the law does not require taxes from most people, and that the IRS will respect that law for those who are educated about it.

Just to set the record straight: only the United States, the Philippines and Eritrea claim the "right" to tax this way on the basis of citizenship rather than just normal (de-jure or de-facto) residency. (ETA: oops, I've forgotten that some countries, like Switzerland, try to collect a special tax from the diaspora who opted out of military duties.)

I hope you take all this in, Mike.  There were some very interesting points made in this thread.

Many of which were "Be a sheep!" and "One of us! One of us!"
If your point was, "It's ok, you don't have to pay taxes, the government will be upset, but they will for the most part leave you alone," I think it's really bad advice.

My God. I didn't know other people like me were out there. I love these forums. ILL NEVER LEAVE.

This may be of interest to some people in is thread. One of my current projects is a crowdfunded Bitcoin video and I'm looking for feedback on the script. Thread here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=199392.0

This goes back to the Supreme Right of Kings under God. Its as simple as a school yard bully. You can propagandize, spin, condition, manipulate, and attempt to justify forcing a 3rd party's will on your neighbor, but that does not change what it is. Sure, the bully provides protection and security and other various services those employing him wants, because he must keep the majority happy to remain in power... until the people rise up against him or another stronger force overthrows his regime and minions - like a teacher or principal.

Its the powerful enslaving the weak and its been happening for thousands of years.

I pity those of you who cant see this.

I hadn't seen those before. Thanks for posting them! :)

+1

Just for example, the Canadian sheeple generally like being under the thumb of a monarch. They are not capable of thinking of anything else because they're so conditioned to blindly accepting their monarch. It's pathetic.

The British Monarch owns all property in Canada. Similar for Australia. (I'm not sure about other places in the Commonwealth, but likely the same.) And the Canadian and Australian sheeple can do nothing but bleat their mindless drivel as they are either sheared or slaughtered. Even more pathetic.