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Ordered this almost a month ago. Looks like they're shipping but what will the ROI be assuming I get the monitor the earliest which will be July/August?

It's the 60GHash for $1300

I would. But then again I never would have ordered in the first place.

Make your own decision.

I would cancel too. But it's your call...

ill buy your 60Gh at 1350

it's actually around $1350 with shipping haha, I'd rather play it safe and return it and get my money back via paypal.

Try and sell it.  People are paying crazy money for ASICs that are unlikely to meet ROI.

good idea :)

You just changed your mind  about getting a refund  to selling it in one post?

>>  Should I cancel my BFL 4/2/2013 Order?

Kind of defeats the purpose of placing an order.  But hey everyone needs a hobby I guess.

Nothing wrong in changing your mind, especially when ROIs are being squeezed, and even more so when you dont have a specific shipping date.

That situation is the same now as it was on April 2nd when he placed his order that he now may want to cancel.

Nobody is going to buy an April order... For now. Maybe next year, when it's very likely that you will get it soon, somebody is going to be willing to pay for your preorder including a premium.... Or maybe not, because ROI will be impossible at that time.

Honestly, don't want to be rude, but I really cannot understand what crossed your mind when you pre-ordered in April. Maybe you are new and did not make any research? Maybe you thought BTC would skyrocket so even 0.0001BTC mined is worth it? No, sorry, last sentence has no sense, if you believed that you would just have bought BTC for the price of the miner.

So... what crossed your mind? Honest question.

Yeah. That said, better sell it rather than cancel. People are still ordering those 50GH units at $2.5k, so I'd think you get at least that.

Not really.  Look at the DIY orders for Avalon chips that have been made since then. That's enough to give anyone cold feet.

Jeez, give the guy a break.  He is right to be concerned, and if he wants to cancel then it's no big deal.

Assuming BFL can even deliver a single (non prototype/review/dev/hype) 60 gh miner in May, you're likely to be getting your order late Q3 or Q4.

what if someone who wants to order now from BFL ... why wouldn't they buy this one for a cheaper price and faster shipment?

Unlikely to meet ROI?

Let's see... on June 23, 2012, when preorders were opened up for BFL ASICs, difficulty was around 1.8 million.  Now, difficulty is just over 10 million.  That's a 5.5x increase.

And yet, on June 23, 2012, the expected return on investment would have been calculated using $6 as the price per BTC.  Now, the price is $140.  That's a 23x increase.

So it's actually 4 times as profitable now as it was when preorders first opened up.

BFL miners will be quite profitable for quite some time.  BFL would have to ship around 1.75 MILLION Single SC's in order for it to be unprofitable to run a Single SC at $0.08/kwh.

Yeah, I thought you were offering the pre-order for a premium, I see is not the case, so yours is not a bad offer... But still is an April order, paying $1K for a unit you will get in 2014 is still quite crazy IMO.

BTW, honest question: what crossed your mind when you decided to order to BFL on April? You really thought they were going to deliver soon?

Because I felt stupid for not ordering Avalon when I had the chance... I literally had my bank info all typed in but decided it was too risky and closed all windows...

Something similar happened to me with Avalon batch #2 - but then I prepared and bought batch #3. That's a gamble on its own...

And BTW: I also have a pre-order with BFL, but much earlier... And I paid in BTC (ouch!)

And if the BTC exchange rate goes up to $1400 it would be a 230x increase in expected return on investment.
If the BTC exchange rate drops to $14, it would only be a 2.3 times increase in expected return.
Nobody knows what the exchange rate will be in the future. That is why people should talk about expected BTC mined from BFL products, not USD expected from BFL mining. BTC expected from BFL mining is only 18% of what it was in Oct 2012.

BFL = Big Foolish Lumps

Cancel the order, buy GPUs and mine Litecoin. ASICs will kill BTC anyway. ASICs will inevitably cause the centralisation of control and kill BTC just like it did fiat.

They are not. They are only shipping Jalapenos.

Singles, Little Single and Mini Rigs are still in (re)design phase (aka "now in final stage development" in BFLspeak).


Your expected earnings:

That would only be true if no other ASICs were brought online by any other manufacturer. Fat chance of that. Lots of ASICs are going to make the difficulty skyrocket long before BFL ships a bunch of Singles.

More like 21%, but yes, I agree.  What's your point?  BFL never made any guarantees regarding how profitable their device would be.  They never made any guarantees regarding difficulty or a certain number of BTC generated per day.  They've always offered refunds to anyone who asked for one.  And it has always been the choice of the customer to risk their money on a pre-order of promises.

Back to the original quote I was responding to, which stated that "People are paying crazy money for ASICs that are unlikely to meet ROI."  This person was clearly speaking of current prices (in USD) for ASICs.  My response is that the notion that ASICs would not pay for themselves if ordered today is completely absurd, because it would take 1.75 million Single SC's shipped out before a BFL ASIC would become unprofitable to mine with at current prices.  So somehow, FlappySocks thinks that BFL (or another ASIC vendor) is going to ship out 1.75 million units before a device ordered today would fully pay for itself.  I'm just saying that that idea is flat-out wrong, unless FlappySocks expects the USD price of BTC to drop drastically.  Looking from a USD perspective, a unit ordered today would most certainly pay for itself as long as the BTC price doesn't move downward.

1.75 million 60GH/s ASICs?  I highly doubt it.

You realize that there are probably 50-100k people between the ones who have ordered from BFL, and the ones that are part of a chip buy from Avalon?

Asics are not causing centralization.

The risks buying BFL hardware have been and still are:
1) the delivery date
2) the specs
3) the BTC/USD exchange rate
4) the network hashrate
5) reliability of the unit

Ordering a BFL unit (assuming it was delivered anywhere near spec and within 6 months) would probably be profitable. It probably would not be "wildly profitable" and there might be a better use of funds (Avalon, etc).


The nature of most mining solutions (excluding electricity costs) is that they eventually pay for themselves. Even GPUs bought today might eventually pay for themselves. If people are paying "crazy money", then they are not paying list price. I think that poster was saying that the units ordered today are unlikely to meet the bubbly expectations of ROI that people currently have.  Some combination of delays, spec miss, btc price, and hash rate rise will deflate those expectations dramatically.

Unless a larger portion of any of these orders are all people mining at the same pool

Let's take BFL at their word, they can ship 400 units a day. An order placed today will likely take 6 months to arrive. That's 73,000 units, roughly 50 times the current network size. So when that Single is delivered, it'll make .05 btc/day. But it costs 18 btc today. That puts the ROI at roughly 1 year after the 6 months for delivery. 18 months from today just to break even and get the BTC back you previously spent on it.

I'll make you an even better deal. Send me 18 btc today and in 1 year I'll give you 20 btc. That's 11% profit for you. Way better than buying a Single today.

Sold mine : http://www.ebay.com/itm/121096385733?ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1561.l2649
 
Might be risky, only time will tell.

I also don't get people worried about ROI...

I did calculations, and up to a difficulty of 500M, a single will pay itself off within a year. And that assuming BTC=$150... that's reasonably likely to increase.

Only in the Bitcoin world do people have a fit when they don't have a 3 month 100% ROI.  Meanwhile, everywhere else people are falling over themselves to have a 24 months 100% ROI.

That's because with current difficult projections, what will not ROI in 3 months will not ROI at all.

Out of bitcoin world, first moments are the most difficult because revenue is lower, but you expect your revenue and profits to grow over time. In BTC mining it's the opposite. You really don't understand this or you are just trolling?

I understand it just fine, you don't seem to understand basic math.  Show your work or you're just making crap up.  

There's plenty of projections that show a positive ROI even at 100x difficulty and beyond.  I have yet to see a single credible projection that doesn't show a positive ROI at some point within 2 - 3 years with all the worst case scenarios coming into play at the same time .

I trust Organofcorti's calculations far more than I trust your speculation.
 

Break even after 2-3 years is horrible returns.

Not really, investment in any product can take years to get any profit.

Are you a customer? If so , get your refund and leave others to make their own decision.

If not? stfu and get off. Ppl can deal with their financial investment without you being their "advisor"

 

Based on past history an April order will be likely delivered in 2014, when difficulty will be very high. Sorry, I'm basing this assumption on facts: continuous delays, huge backlog, etc. Organofcorti's calculations arrive only to July this year, and still you can see below how he forecasted a x10 increase in just three months. If that trends continues.... Well, good luck with having a ROI at 1,000x.

Another fact is that you are not guaranteeing any delivery date. That's a huge risk in mining business, because as you acknowledged if you don't get your mining unit early enough so you can recoup your costs in the very first weeks, you won't ROI at all. And BTW, if you trust organofcorti's calculations you should know he wrote literally:


Source: http://organofcorti.blogspot.com.es/2013/04/915-fair-price-for-asic-miner.html

But, the point is you cannot guarantee delivery by the end of May - true? Maybe to him, to try to get some nice publicity, but not for the rest of us.

I am a BFL customer too, so I'm not enjoying this situation.

https://lh3.ggpht.com/-MSoTAcfOy7k/UXZaDbe-PGI/AAAAAAAAHnQ/8KOk88tB9fI/s1600/9.14.table1.2013-04-23.png

Why, is this your thread?

The OP asked for opinions, so I'm giving them. Get a refund and toss your money into the stock market and make 10% per year rather than wait 2-3 years for a chance to break even. Or if you really do believe in bitcoins, buy some and make a killing in a couple weeks.

I find that figure absurd, that's probably out by at least an order of magnitude. Most orders are for multiple chips per person. I would be surprised if there are more than hundreds of people involved in the Avalon chip buy.

Clearly, you read neither the title of the thread nor the original post where advice was solicited about whether or not to cancel a BFL order.

So you post the image of the hashrate as if it supports your opinion. However, even taking the most conservative number on that chart, 486 TH/s, a BFL single would still earn between .4 and .5 BTC a day.  That's $70 a day, or $2100 per month.  A 1 month 100% ROI at 486 TH network hashrate.  If the network hashrate is anything LESS than 486 TH, your 100% ROI timeframe drops dramatically.

Yes... once again, only in the bitcoin world is a 1 month 100% ROI cause for panic and bitching, heh.

This just prove i'm arguing with shortbus rider again.

Welcome to my ignore, retard

Clearly, you didnt see why this thread is a full of shit. Ppl who ask financial advice from random guy on the internet are not fit to even do any investment. A fool and his money is soon to be parted.

But go ahead, acting like a real financial advisor on here does fullfill some losers life.
 

So you are guaranteeing here that an April order like the one we are discussing in this post will be delivered in July?

You represent a company, I'd appreciate some clear and honest statements instead of trolling.

Hours lol, how much do you think BTC was worth 6mths ago to support you claim?

BFL does not participate in Bitcontroll.org, sorry.  I don't represent anything but myself here.

Josh, can i ask you kindly leave this thread and focus your energy on the SCs and little SCs? This forum is hopeless man

Unless the price of BTC in late July / early August (the date of the 486TH hash rate) is $14. Then it would take considerably longer than 1 month to earn your money back. And the hash rate does not stop growing at 484TH (as your analysis presumed). You are looking at more like 18 months to earn your money back.

Plus, Singles do not yet exist except in the plans of BFL.

Of course, if BTC goes to $5000 the story will be different.  ;)


He should be focusing his energy elsewhere, but I would be surprised if he took your advice.
If the forum is hopeless, why are you here?

when you are 6 months late and 100% ROI has gone from hours to months during that 'gap' customers/investors are 110% justified to bitch........

correction - it would have been long enough to be considered days not hours in most people's books back then but still a far cry from when/if 'regular' customers will seek to realize their ROI

You know what? Dont bother buying BFL mining products or any mining products. Just take your money and listen to some genius here, buy stocks.... while at it ask your broker to GUARANTEE your ROI is 100% annually. Then come back and share your joy with us.

Yup thats how its done,..... like a boss.

It's amazing for me how he plays games with dubious statements, like implying that the order we are discussing here will be delivered in July (hash rate 486TH). The drama here is that no one knows when our mining gear will arrive, and based on past history that could be in 1 year from now.

If the difficulty keeps growing as per the calculation displayed above... Yeah, difficulty does x10 each three months, you can imagine where will it be in one year.

I'm not asking for a guaranteed ROI - I'm asking for a guaranteed delivery date. It's so difficult for you to understand that?

Why don't you buy Bitcoin from me, I tell you all sales are final, you send me the fiat, and then I don't send your BTCs for months. And if you dare to bitch I will tell you to just buy stocks.

Please cite your math for 18 months.  

Fine, lets double the hashrate to 972 TH, that's .25 BTC a day, or $35 USD, or $1050.  Oh no, 2.5 month 100% ROI!  Stop the train!  Holy crap!

All of this assumes you START with a difficulty of 972 TH. The fact that we would be starting with 1/100th of that or thereabouts means your 2.5 months is reduced drastically.

The BTC/USD price I quoted was $14. This was to illustrate that your USD returns depend on the BTC price remaining high for the next 3 months.
.25 BTC at $14 is $3.50, not $35.
That chart has the hash rate doubling every 1.5 months. So for a device delivered Aug 1st, the first 1 and 1/2 months you would earn about $252 dollars, the second month and a half you would earn $126, then $63, then $31 etc. I was being generous with the 18 months, according to that trend a single delivered in August and priced at $1200 would never pay itself off.

Obviously, at some point the network hash rate will level off, it cannot double in strength forever.
Obviously, nobody can know what the price of Bitcoin will be in August.

IMO you'll make money as long as the exchange rate holds, the mining difficulty doesn't increase faster than expected, and you get your order before the end of the year.

You basically have 3 unknown factors to consider; future exchange rate, future mining difficulty, and delivery date. The exchange rate is completely unpredictable so you really just have to throw the dice on that one. The mining difficulty is the most predictable of the three and you can check out this blog (http://organofcorti.blogspot.com/) for a pretty thorough forecast. Ship date is another extremely unpredictable variable as I'm sure nobody who pre-ordered last year would have predicted they would still be waiting at this point. I personally do not believe BFL will ship April orders by August but I honestly have no idea since there's so little information available. Based on their sporadic and inconsistent updates and the extremely unprofessional behavior of their CEO, it doesn't look good IMO.

Another route would be to hold onto your pre-order and keep your eyes on the other emerging ASIC vendors and consider getting a refund if one of them opens for business before your order is delivered.

I understand but what about the potential investments? What if I can buy 10 BTC for $1300 today and in 4 months that $1300 goes up 10x?

So I lost the chance to make ~$11000?

Keep in mind that mining profits would go up 10x as well.

ASIC's are not "the goose that laid the golden egg" as some people try to push that view of their effect on mining.

It's a moving target, ultimately profits will come down to the energy cost per coin.

There is nothing stopping BFL or Avalon re-doing their ASIC in TSMC's lower power 20nm fab sometime in the near future, and shifting the mining profit goal post yet again.

Since you obviously have a hard time empathizing with your customers let me try to explain why many of them are "having a fit".

To keep this simple lets ignore all of the people who pre-ordered last year. In your January update (https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/692-bfl-asic-status.html), you stated "if you order today, 13 January 2013, you would likely receive your order around the middle of March or possibly sooner if you're ordering a Jalapeno or a Single". If that had not been complete bullshit and a Single had arrived on time, it would have already mined almost 250BTC by now. That's over $30,000 at current exchange rates. Now imagine the people that pre-ordered a mini-rig in June last year...

Instead of participating in the ASIC gold rush like they expected, your customers have had to sit and watch the Avalon's reap the amazing rewards while you treat them like shit instead of being humble and apologetic like a real CEO should be. THIS is why people are upset with you. Of course you already know this and all of these "Only in the Bitcoin world!" posts are only there to distract people from the truth.

I pre-ordered from both BFL and Bitsyncom in Feb and I personally am not upset with delays from both companies because there's still plenty of fat on the pig and I understand that this is uncharted territory. However, I am starting to believe you have purposely mislead people and find your conduct extremely unprofessional which is much more concerning to me than the constantly slipping ship date...

So much fail in the above post, I don't even know where to start.

I have an idea Tehfiend, if you are so offended, why not ask for a refund?

So much douchebag in the above post, I don't even know where to start.

Many of us paid in BTC, and you know that a refund would be a slap in our face, so we can only hold to our orders hoping you finally overcome your problems and we can try to mine back what we invested.

But instead of being transparent, you seem to be spreading dubious statements so new users keep throwing fiat at your HUGE preorder backlog... And you seem to enjoy trolling quite a bit, too.

 :D It sounds like we need a hostage negotiator with experience in Pre-Orders.

Send in Morgan Freeman with a hat full of WIN. (not FAIL)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ipeF2ulum2Y/TxRMIEb6p6I/AAAAAAAAErc/9fN-wFTx9Xs/s1600/Morgan-Freeman.jpg

Sure, ultimately that'll happen.  But we all know that it takes months for difficulty to follow price.  And the lag time might be even longer with application-specific hardware, since BTC dropping to zero would effectively render ASIC products useless.  With video cards, people could easily recoup most of their investment by reselling their video cards if BTC took a dump, but with ASICs, not so much.  It's a riskier investment, ensuring that break-even will remain a short time period until enough people have faith that BTC is here and stable (hah!) for the long term.

Lets do a reality check, back in January this year, BFL didn't know that their wafers would not meet the projected power figures as they hadn't received them yet. The unexpected higher figures only resulted in them having to totally redesign their entire ASIC product line that they had been working on for many months!

Personally, coming from an electronics background, I would like to know the technical reason why the chips didn't meet the projected power figures, was it a simple calculation mistake or something else?

I saw a post on reddit which explained this very simply in the following manner.

Lets take a network hash rate of 1000 TH/s:

1000 Th/s / 5 GH/s = 200,000

Now lets take the current network hash rate of around 75 TH/s and divide that by 200,000:

75 TH/s / 200,000 = 375 MH/s

Mining with a 5 GH/s miner when the network hash is 1000 TH/s is equivalent to mining with 375 MH/s right now. That will get you about 0.02 BTC per day.

Now lets see how this applies to the other rigs:

1000 Th/s / 25 GH/s = 40,000
75 TH/s / 40,000 = 1.875 GH/s
0.09 BTC per day

1000 Th/s / 50 GH/s = 20,000
75 TH/s / 20,000 =  3.75 GH/s
0.19 BTC per day

Even with a network hash rate of 1000 TH/s and BTC priced at $140, it would only take around 100 days to make your money back.

A reality check based on false information.

BFL did know they needed to redo the wafer(s) due to distortions caused by the fabrication process. (back in December/November)

It wasn't until much later that this revealed was revealed to customers. The customers were kept in the dark (mostly) for about 45 days. Then they made mention that the devices they were building came much too close to the maximum heat profile they expected. So they redesigned and had customers wait without them knowing why.

Read up on the past, your reality needs some....reality.

Edit to add: "Clockbuffers", "Hand Routed Paths", "Heat Simulations Small Margins" etc.

Edit 2: In April, they had to do the same thing again. Too much heat in too small a space. They are now revising their board and case due to power issues. This is "probably" why the vast majority of developers and other high profile clients are probably getting prototypes that work well enough to be demo'd.

The stable versions aren't coming out until they have redesigned the re-design. <cough> It may be awhile...

Purchases were made in USD yes, but USD from 9 months ago, When they were worth ~0.1BTC not 0.007BTC.
Everyone who sold BTC to buy a BFL product expected to be able to get more BTC out of it at some point in time.

I don't see it happening anytime soon, if ever (due to power consumption) - That is all.

Excerpt from 100th mine IPO :
Have you considered a lost mitigation contract resembling this ?

corrected to reflect days instead of hours.  still a long way away from the ROI it will be when/if regular customers are seeking it from the units that were promised to be delivered in october.

BTC was worth the same then as it is now, 1 BTC = 1 BTC.  meaning if one invested BTC to acquire a device that allows them 'produce' BTC then that is how their ROI would factor.

BFL products are not priced in BTC, your analogy is irrelevant, you might as well have used the price of oil or gold, or even LTC as a comparison.

Yep, they were priced in USD, USD from 9 months ago.

If I spent USD to acquire a device that produced USD and the device was from Europe and was priced in Euros, would you want to limit the discussion on ROI only to Euros? No. That would be nonsense.

wait for it.....

i'm feeling the pathetic argument coming that because BFL doubled their prices in USD for the 'current' versions of the products that early pre-orderers were sages and should be happy about the current state of things.

I've got a better idea. How about you pay the 1000 BTC for the bet you lost over blowing your power usage estimates.

How exactly would that address Tehfiend's concerns. Oh that's right, it wouldn't.

It might give him confidence in BFL's commitment to meeting their promises.

 Easy there cowboy. Your shill is showing.

Because that's what a normal person does when they are unhappy with a companies performance.  It's called "Vote with your wallet."  Look it up.


Ok, USD from 9 months ago... $1299.00 would be worth... wait for it... $1316.99 today.  (http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/)  

So yeah, might potentially be able to convince me that you would have paid $17 more back then than you would today.  Oh... but wait... that might not work out so well for you.  I can't quite put my finger on why...

are you still debating this silly point?? is this the only argument you can win?

That and every other debate I enter into.  Disagree?  Post evidence.  Tired of people like you who make wild claims but are unable to back up their claims.  Thanks for playing though.

 Way to evade again, Josh. So when are you going to do the honorable thing and honor the bet ?

 Clearly, you have not met your power targets despite all your previous hubris.

 

1000 BTC is chump change for him

"Vote with your wallet."

"Conn with your ads."

Ahh shit...someone is going for broke...


Gambling with funds is bad for buisness.

Mods, if these bets are not fulfilled, isn't it time for a scammer tag?

2000 BTC = 273,985.06679 USD

Oh really?

Then why hasn't he made any effort to pay the debt?

And you could have withheld those USD and ordered the BFL product when it was actually in stock instead of opting for a pre-order. Your money, your choice.

Because he's not going to. He originally made the bet with the intention of making people believe BFL would be a good investment, since he was risking his reputation on it. And people fell for it. It accomplished its mission, don't waste your time.

But there's a flaw in your plan bassclef (and PuertoRetard, Smoothie and Frizz) ... I settled up with Runeks more than a week ago.  Awww, too bad.  Guess you guys really are dumbasses.  Here's what I propose, you three idiots get a scammer tag for posting verifiable false information for the past several days, trying to scam people into believing that BFL is a scam, when in truth, you folks are just lying sacks of shit.

It is not a waste of time:

SCENARIO HE PAYS 1000BTC:

He is now 1000 BTC short (whether it comes from his pocket or BFL customers' pockets)

SCENARIO HE DOESN'T PAY 1000 BTC:

He gets labeled a scammer (even if not literally) but figuratively because all who are watching on this forum will troll his ass about the bet HE NEVER PAID and COULDN'T BACK UP HIS BULLSHIT CLAIMS ON POWER/SPEED SPECS.

Either way it MATTERS and isn't a waste of time.

Time = Money

Customers gave BFL money 10 months ago = Customers gave BFL TIME 10 months ago.

Once again it isn't a waste of time pointing out this fact.

 Glass houses dude ! What the fuck man ?! Do you really lack that much self-awareness ? Good Christ !

Your dealings =/= BFL dealings

Your bet with Runeks was never confirmed publicly to my knowledge which has nothing to do with BFL directly.

Or does it? If it does then you just outted yourself as having a huge conflict of interest. Are you using BFL funds to pay Runeks or was it preorder moniez?? Please clarify the FACTs for us all.

PROVE YOU SETTLED the BET.  ::) ::) ::)

LOL fail again  :P

The funny thing about Inaba is he is attempting to deflect based on no accusations that I have made.

Did I say he never paid? No.

In fact I even asked if someone could do the 24 power/speed test to finish the bet.

Nowhere did I ever claim that Inaba/Josh wasn't going to pay or didn't pay.

He calls me a "Lying sack of shit" when I haven't lied about anything on this topic of his bet with Runeks.

In fact I PMed Inaba and never got a response until just now. Which is fine.

What is bothersome is he continues to fling shit at us who ask questions and when we don't know the answer  he gives us the supposed answer (with no proof, so far) and calls us lying sacks of shit.

Defensive much?? lol

 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

I see that this bully never grew up. Does name calling really make you feel better about yourself?

When your units ship as promised you won't have to deal with us anymore. In the meantime, I suggest you take a close look at how you carry yourself in public and how it affects your company's image. Then think about how it affects your customers, and finally think about how it affects yourself.

Post evidence that you paid and settled with Runeks your bet of 1000BTC.

We too are tired of your wild claims that you have not backed up with fact and evidence.

PROVE IT.  :P

Does anyone know what the delivery time is expected to be now if orded today? It seems to in constant flux.

If you ask Customer Service at BFL they will tell you one thing.

If you ask the retarded Rep above, he will tell you what you want to hear.

If you ask us, we will tell you....it is a long wait.

One of my problem with BFL is that they delivered explanations for ~3 months worth of delays.

A false statement. In other words, a lie.

That ship sailed a long time ago.

And that is directly connected to the reason you owe me an apology. For causes which I fully documented at the time.

rrrrright.  rather than allow that tired arguement to distract from the issue here - it doesn't matter how one measures their own ROI as it is negative right now.  some metrics being more than others, but those that early pre-ordered and expected product 6 months ago are in a hole and it gets deeper by the day.  and since BFL has also blown their power numbers by a long shot it will take even longer to get out of the 'ROI hole'.

I like your new signature. Reverse Psyc.

You never seem to know where to start with my posts do you? Don't worry, I had already moved my investment from BFL to Bitsyncom before I even learned about the nature of your character. You obviously have no intention of addressing any of the points I have made so good luck Josh. I hope BFL can succeed despite you...

I'll pay 1800

Oh how Josh goes silent when called out for the pansy he is.

Where is the proof Joshy-boy?  :P

Wow!  This thread really collapses in size when you have the entire "douche patrol" on ignore.    ;D

Btw, I do need to thank the poster who said they are leaving mean ol' nasty Inaba for that "paragon of virtue", bitsyncom.  ROFLMFAO

That is fucking RICH!!   :D  Thanks for the laugh!!

Yes. You should.

yes, you should

What is funny is that some people choose to ignore me because they can't handle the truth. That is utterly sad lol

After PuertoLibre's fake avalon/dhl shipping notice, (yes, that low can someone's self esteem sink), this is a good joke too:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=114329.msg2100103#msg2100103 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=114329.msg2100103#msg2100103)

Hahaha! That's awesome. He wants to defame the company and do nothing but complain, but then he gets all butthurt when they tell him to take his business elsewhere!

"I hate you and your company so much, but don't you DARE tell me I can't buy your products!" The hypocrisy is overwhelming!

I have, as a business owner myself, had the wonderful satisfaction of telling the very rare disagreeable customer to take their money and get the fuck out. The reaction is always PRICELESS. You're not entitled to force me into an abusive customer/business relationship. If you're unhappy, I'll try and make you a happy customer. If you're going to be a prick, I'll save us both some time, and you can go be somebody else's problem.

99.999% of all of my customer interactions are amicable, and most 'dissatisfied' customers are easily turned into satisfied customers with very little effort, a little dialogue, and compromise on both sides. It doesn't always involve me giving exactly what they asked for in their complaint.

If I have a delay in being able to fill somebody's order, I give them a choice of a refund, or waiting it out. Regardless, the choice is in their hands. If they believe that my product is worth waiting for, they will. If not, they can seek other arrangements. Most rational human beings can understand that.

I have a customer who has been waiting on a $2900 order since September (This is a customer who orders $20,000 worth of products a year through me), when the original estimated delivery time was back in December. Every few weeks, I provide an update on the fact that I'm STILL waiting on a supplier to provide his order to me, and EVERY TIME I offer to refund him if he doesn't feel like waiting anymore. And EVERY TIME, he thanks me for the offer but chooses to continue with his order, as my price is competitive with everybody else, and he's not likely to get it much faster anywhere else. Keep in mind that due to government paperwork, that even AFTER his order gets to me, it will still be tied up in bureaucratic red tape for another 3-4 Months, even if it showed up TODAY.

If, for some reason, he started trolling forums and defaming my business, calling me a scammer, etc, etc. I would write him a refund check, PRONTO, and tell him that his customer privileges have been revoked. Then again, he's not an asshole, so I can't see this ever happening.

I fully support BFL's response to the idiots who want to go around trashing them, but also think they are entitled to continue to buy whatever they want from them. The world doesn't owe you anything. BFL doesn't owe you anything. Learn to watch what you say about people that you want to do business with, because business is a two-way street. You have the right to take your business elsewhere, but business owners have the right to send you packing as well. I love it when a company owner has the cajones to remind imbeciles of that fact from time to time.

The Westboro Baptist church went to a town near where I grew up one time, to spew their hate at whatever random event was happening that day (military funeral, I believe). Somebody cut 2 of their tires.

The WBCers drove all around town on 2 flat tires trying to find a tire shop to buy tires from. Every single tire shop they stopped at recognized them and told them they weren't worthy to be their customers.

They finally ended up going to Wal-Mart, who has no standards, and is used to interacting with trash, and got some tires. As far as I know, they've never been back to McAlester Oklahoma. ;)

If you want something that will ship timely, it's a lot more expensive: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=204030.msg2132683

I don't know what your incentive is, but I can't think of any incentive of my own that would make someone want to express what I've expressed and not have experienced it.

I'm not here to prove anything to you directly, but I do believe my words should speak for themselves.  Maybe you think I recently ordered, and want everyone to believe BFL is a scam so BFL crashes and nobody gets their ASIC?  Maybe it's just personal, and me and Josh know each other outside of BFL?

Whatever the case, I'm disappointed by the outcome.

AREN'T YOU?

Have I missed something Slok?

You keep linking to one of Jordans posts....what does that have to do with me? (enlighten me?)

I think you might be desperate at this point.

No clue where you guys are referencing from. The links you guys are using are not even mine or anything to do with me.

Keep trying though?

I skimmed,

I don't think I have ever posted in that section. All I saw was a wrenchmonkey getting bent over a table by other community members about his comments in support of BFL.

I guess blowing smoke is all you have left. Kinda sad....

Do you want me to post the joke DHL notice that shows Avalon delivering to BFL? Sure?

Here it is:

http://i42.tinypic.com/2zekv3t.png

Was this what has got you all worked up, Slok? Is that the great controversy of smoke billowing from thy bottom?

This was posted by Josh weeks before I posted my joke post....

http://i43.tinypic.com/5jw6l1.jpg

And... another former BFL customer... that seems like a trend.

Want to see something really sad?

This is what BFL introduced at CES 2013...at about January or February 2013...some 3 or 4 months after customers were supposed to get their devices.

THIS IS NO JOKE!

http://i43.tinypic.com/2w5oif5.jpg

What? You don't believe me do you? Okay, here is a video I found in about five seconds on Youtube showing the case of fans at CES (with cover on).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujl-_F7D724

Guess what? Yeah, I pulled up the video in Youtube by these search terms: "CES Box of Fans"

Yes, I am not kidding...go try it out yourself.

Want a shortcut?
Sure follow the link:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=BFL+CES&oq=BFL+CES

 That is indeed sad and embarrassing  :-\ But I guess when you inherently have no concept of shame...

 At least Josh did recently admit that their ceasing production of FPGA units was a mistake in retrospect - Smartest thing the man has said this year so far.

Is it me or are Smoothie and Puerto Libre's ignore icon's getting LESS yellow in inverse proportion to the number of days and weeks BFL fails to ship?

This is best Josh and BFL box of fans video yet; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4SnUObMd0o

Notice what Josh has in his hands. Even though we can't see it, you probably can safely assume it's a quarter for Bryan, accompanied with a well-rehearsed line involving a clue. I believe Josh got the entire idea from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFH4DszUj2A

Pay special attention to ~1:24.

The sadness is on you, man> BFL's empty box was obviously a joke, you on the other hand:
Besides, what's with the advertising for BFL through your sig?
"I think it's fair to warn everybody reading here that MORE PREORDERS should be placed until they are READY to.. etc"?? More pre-orders should be placed?

Come on, only 38 out of your last 40 posts are about BFL, you can do better.

How can you be willing to be so ignorant?  I know sarcasm generally has a hard time being communicated over the internet, but that sig just screamed it.

Also, people aren't allowed to talk about the negative aspects of BFL in BFL forums, unless they get banned or punished.  So it happens here, for anyone wondering about BFL's connection to bitcoin.

Like nature intended.

Well I got banned from butterfly forums
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=208466.0

 We should start a club !

That was a clipping from JGarziks DHL tracking number. I couldn't post all of it because it has his info on it.

So when I said everyone is waiting for this, yeah, everyone is. If you all interpreted in some twisted way then please seek a psychiatrist or local psychoanalyst.

Now I finally do understand what you guys thought. That Avalon had shipped mine at that time? Strange idea but okay.

--------------------------

Alright, Slok,

Lets go with your twisted perception of what my post meant. How would your perception of my action be any different than BFL shipping a handful of prototype units to reviewers and non-customers while stating they are starting shipping? (just after they admit that Paypal is waving a proverbial threatening stick at them for not having shipped)

Making two blog posts on their forum that they have "shipped out units" and then...stating they won't be bothering to continue stating how many are going out each day. (Just when the number of prototypes ran out!)

Tell me...there is no false pretense being weaved...please say it to me....

Can you explain to me which is the bigger fraud? My posting of a part of JGarziks DHL notice and saying everyone is waiting to see this kind of notice. Or BFL shipping a few prototypes to some people who hadn't even ordered them just to make it seem like they have something to ship...or make appearances that they are about to ship en masse....only to then stop for well close to a month when they ran out of protoypes? (35 units)

Tell me, which is far more deceptive?

Mining with a customer's ASIC is more deceptive.  By a long shot.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=141154.msg2175901#msg2175901

Are you aware that all units are tested prior to shipment? You can't make the leap that they have been tested on mainnet simply because the unit is filled with dust. It's a long extension even for a shill from BFL.

His was damaged and he definitely needs a replacement, ASAP.

Weren't they supposed to be delivered with the innards covered also?

It looks like an intercept and someone having fun with it to me... and then bad packaging which led to destruction...

Where are they doing this testing, the local rock quarry?   :D

That is weeks worth of dust.
http://s21.postimg.org/h2pga4yxi/005.jpg

Who cares if avalon tested on the main chain. They are giving you a magic money machine. It's like getting mad at the lotto for winning 550 mill but having to pay half for lump sum then another half for taxes. You still getting more than you put in(eventually). People really need to change their expectations for asic companies.

Actually, that is one week's worth of dust on my equipment if I leave my back garage door open for ventilation during the day. I go through a can of compressed air a month trying to keep my rigs clean (dust makes them run hotter).

They are not in a rock quarry. They are someplace much worse.
http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2013/01/14/China_pollution_AP971430398958_620x350.jpg

Air quality in China is notoriously poor.

Then wouldn't they ALL look like that then?

Honestly I would prefer if they tested on the main chain for two reasons, firstly it's a more accurate test, after all that's how the unit is intended to be run, secondly if they make a bit more cash flow from it they have a healthier business.

Not if they tested some for 5 minutes and others for a day or two, or even some were not tested at all. Perhaps they burn in every unit for 24 hours before shipping.
I can think of lots of scenarios that are innocent which could result a bit of dust like that.

On the other hand, they could be in a building with excellent air quality control (a semiconductor factory for instance) and could have been mining with them for days or weeks. I was far more concerned with the damage to the unit than the dust.

Yep, hopefully they get the gen2 chips out soon. Yifu sounded pretty optimistic in the vids posted from the conference it will happen soon.

Hopefully they will make some reference G2 boards compatible with for their Avalon servers.

We all know they were mining for profit via burn in so that dust was infact dust from Eclipse mining facility most probably.

Why are you digging up old BFL threads?

Relevant to the latest Monarch situation. It might help others in their exploration of information before shopping with BFL. Also it may give others a pathway to find out where BFL has lied to customers in the past and that might go to their case. Every little bit will help. Clearly they mine before shipping for profit... looking through these threads and recycling what was said will not allow them to cover it up further.  You might know the history... not everyone else does.

I believe that was a photo of an Avalon with dust and damage, not BFL. AFAIK there is no proof that Avalon mined extensively on the main blockchain, but that doesn't mean they didn't. It would be very tempting to do. We do know that BFL did, since they admitted to it at Sonny's court hearing.

My bad.

There was a thread that indicated dust in BFL machines was there not?

BFL has pretty much admitted they were mining on customers hardware.

Yes in the court documents. Not here in the forum at the time. That is where we all would love dig up all the denials and the defamation of people when they called BFL out on mining with the equipment. Given the defense that BFL is using saying basically no one 'owned' the units while we were testing so you can't claim losses because miners are assigned to customers after the burn in is what they still use today for the Monarch. You purchased a Monarch. You have no claim on hashing a board does before you get it shipped to you. In BFL's mind you have no right to claim ownership even though you supported the development of the card. They use your money to not only fund the development but personal expenses, loans to BFL execs and don't forget the homes. cars and other things that will come out soon enough.

It would be interesting to go back through every BFL post here and check what they said exactly at the time. Refunds were ok now not ok. They only mined on the test net now they were mining for profit on machines that were not owned by customers yet. What other wacky and wonderful things will come out of the Eclipse mining pool. I bet there are plenty of skeletons in that closet that the IRS should rightly audit.

Source?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/217190032/Butterfly-Labs-Production-of-Requested-Information-December-6-2013

pg 3.

Thanks

bum testing?

That gave me a good laugh...  ;D

Maybe they are preparing for jail.  :)