Bitcoin Forum

Wonder how many realize this. Basically you are feeding the whales.

At this time PayPal fees are cheaper  ::)

I'm sorry, I do not understand you mean the fee?

yeah, you can pay the fees 250 times

The average price right now for a transaction that would be confirmed in less than 25 minutes is 0,005USD/byte and the average TX size is 250 bytes, so 0.005 * 250 = 1.25USD.

If you are not in a hurry and can wait up to 24 hours, you can go with a 0.001USD/byte, so 0.001 * 250  = 0.25USD.

That's pretty cheap IMO.

Fees are not that big lol,fees are still small at this stage of bitcoins fees are getting higher yes but it will not reach 5$ fees or higher than what you are indicating its part of growing and its not a negative sign

Fee is high at the moment but still considered low when larger amount is involved. Coinbase fee is about 750bits (~$1.50) for any amount sent- if you sent 1BTC (or $2000), you are only paying $1.50. This is much cheaper than Paypal calculation using percentage.

I paid 3 times that amount (134sat/byte so even more than 0.003$ when I made the transaction 3 days ago) and it took more than three days (74 hours).

Yeah in small transaction the fee is much, but not bigger in big transaction such as 500$ or more.

but who the hell would do such thing, i mean, make 250x transactions without exact purpose? most of people just make a transaction if it's really necessary, and with purpose to increase their bitcoin. we are not feeding whales but it's just how blockchain works and because of the scalability

For micropayments paypal (and skrill and neteller, etc.) are faster and cheaper than Bitcoin. That's a fact, unfortunately.

Bitcoin is becoming a tool for big payments amount or large investment. That's not necessarily a bad news, though I would prefer to use it for every kind of payment.

You are not the only one who knows it, we all know it. But we know that, it will not last long, bitcoin is preparing segwit, they will upgrade with bigger block number, and the fee will certainly decrease many times. Do not worry too much about that, bitcoin is still good for us to use.

It would be a great help really if segwit is already implemented in the blockchain. Probably now i can handle 2 days delay as long as the transactions is successful but it think for other people they really would demand exactly what was in the page. And yeah this has already in project teams minds that they would risk this big amount but in exchange with great profit so i doubt if they are brave enough to risk it. Then we can also acknowledge there project.

they are preparing the segwit, but no one knows when it will be activated, we are all hoping for the best in bitcoin market since like what happened yesterday, it has major effect on market stability.

Yes you are true, we must pay the fees 250 Times​ that is the problem on bitcoins right now
so the solution for this problem is simple, don't use bitcoins for a little payment
that is not good much fees must be paid, bitcoins must be considered as gold, stocks than
bitcoins be considered as money.

I think the problem of transaction costs can be minimized on bitcoin transactions, not everyone using paypal makes the transaction easy

At this time, paypal fee is still higher. You are paying almost 4.5$ per 100 dollar as fee. Whereas here in bitcoin market, you are just paying around 1-2$ for faster transaction. You can wait for lower fees. This may increase if more people start using bitcoin.

The bitcoin fees compared to before is much higher but it is still consider to be cheaper compared to the banks.  Even though the fees are increasing but bitcoin is still the best compared to paypal since our bitcoin funds can give us profit even we are sleeping and thus the miner fees are nothing compared to our profit. Paypal funds does not grow in value overnight thus even if it is much cheaper we still prefer bitcoin.

Does paypal also prints you money? No, 1 byte of data is not equal to one paypal transaction. and hundreds of millions are using paypal already so don't worry they will not go bankrupt.
If by any chance they allow you to print dollar as literally what miners are doing then come here and bi*ch about fees.
Even though I'm talking like that but if fees increase higher than 400sats/b I myself will halt every activity related to bitcoin.

Whether amount of the fees is high or low is totally arbitrary opinion. But we know that current fees are not normal and way to high compared to tx fees from 2 years ago.
That could be our reliable benchmark for setting lower fee structure in the future.

Current tx fee will be cheap only for 1st world citizens and people who can afford paying more than $1 every time.

Hmm... Personnally I have to pay much more than this.

Last time I made tx it was around 4$ of fees and that is not something I find cheap ^^
Yeah I'd say fees are the biggest problem right now. Well not fees in themselves, more like the network. Because fees are just the result of the freacking cloaked network :p

Large fee for miners, as well as their greed, can greatly damage BTC, in the worst case they will let it ruin it if there appear 2nd strong crypto currency which will combine all the best (Fast transactions, Large block size, small transfer fees)

Based on this and other analysis I have read, I don't think the fees is way cheaper than bitcoin and aside that even if it is PayPal is cheaper, I would still prefer bitcoin than that simply because of the regulations around PayPal where scammers can exploit the most important is the reversible nature of transactions no matter the mode or form of transferring it. The issue we all face in bitcoin is getting the right amount of transaction fees in which wallet providers has failed us in recommending amount not enough to carry out such transaction.

facepalm
its not about small/ micro transactions. its about normal people transactions.
an average tx is about 400~ bytes. fee on average is 250sat/byte. = 0.00100000 = ~$2

which even paying a week of groceries or a week of car fuel is like 4% tx fee

yep 4% of first world utility weekly things
or worse 6 months of thing in developing countries has a 4% tx fee..

again dont compare bitcoin to the most expensive 'other' methods.. think of it in comparison to average/normal methods
remove utility for average joe and bitcoin becomes useless to average joe. bitcoin becomes only used by the snobby rich. thus becomes as corrupt as how snobby rich have corrupted fiat

bitcoin meant to exist to solve this issues of snobby rich, to help the unbanked.
letting core halt REAL natural growth is a snobby mindset
and dont even go exaggerating it to be about 'gigabytes by midnight' or 'coffee'.. again thats just the snobby rich excuse to not let bitcoin naturally grow.

telling people to use other services or alternative networks is just trying t push people away from bitcoin (triple facepalm)
there are many ways to code in rules to find a equilibrium without going into making bitcoin only for the snobs.

P.S
i have many many many btc and born and raised in a first world country with a long anscestry of such. yet even i can see passed my own lifestyle to recognise the issues

..
remember this.
people on this forum have already heard about bitcoin. they dont need snobs to try stroking ego's and glossing over the bad points to sell the ever narrowing path to what they pretend is utopia. they dont need to be preached to be converted. people reading this forum dont need the gloss.. they prefer the hard truths.

you can only solve an issue when you admit there is an issue

i suggest you never use LN..   research CSV revoke codes and you will see what i mean

Thats pretty amazing calculation. I mean did not know how to calculate the fees really. But usually wait for the confirmation a lot. I waited for $ 22 transaction for 6 days one time. That was the longest may be as I did not pay the fees at all. Lol. I mean I paid very less fees for that. So I guess my byte rate was very much moderate to perform the fast transaction. But anyway I always wait for longer times to avoid the fees as it is my hard earned money.

Paypal fees are cheaper?Don`t make me laugh.
Yesterday i received 31,45 USD paypal payment and the fee was 1,78 USD.
I use paypal only because most of the people use it.

apparently for now on bitcoin isn't the options for those who liked cryptocurrency with low fees because with increasing bitcoin price followed also with raising the fee but in my country the fee using bitcoin is more cheap than transactions use fiat however this is the risk of bitcoin users and we should be facing it

well, i don't have problems sending fees because it depends how huge transaction you will be created i usually pay 0.0004 btc fee for my transaction and it confirms quickly and also, the bitcoin price is high so, the fees will be higher in terms of fiat but in bitcoin it isn't. so, stop thinking the fees are high blah blah live with it.

Yeah, but what that means you are not in the hurry? One of the Bitcoin advanatges was, and I say was because seams like that was long time ago, that your funds are available to you fast and easy, wherever, whenever. Now this is not so anymore and sometimes with even very large fees you should wait more then couple of hours for confirmation. This is not good service and makes people abandon the Bitcoin despite the high price.

This wont be happen anytime in future...

as for the OP's point

he is right
within a less than a thousand transactions you will spend 1BTC.

imagine it this way it does not matter if you have $2000 or $200,000
within a thousand transactions you are going to spend $2000 just on fee's

yes the snobby rich will say "thats fine because i have $200,000" ... but if you think passed the snobbery and realise the unbanked developing countries see $2000 as alot of money

---

for the snobs:
stop trying to preach to the converted how bitcoin is utopia and works perfectly. it doesnt
the core devs have REMOVED fee control code. removed reactive fee facilities that bring fee's down during low demand

stop turning bitcoin into something only the snobs should use and be 'entitled' to by pretending that its bitcoins intended purpose or only possible utility, by allowing devs to remove/halt utility with their snobbery

I agree the fees now and horrible, it's not anyone's fault though IMO, the network is just too congested, the miner's mine the TX with highest fees which is just common sense. Blocks are always full so you can't complain about the miners, I don't think there are even whales here.. anyhow the congestion will probably last few weeks or so, it seems to be getting solved gradually.

On the other hand, PayPal is still much more expensive for merchant payment of anything above $40...

There are more things which have a value though.

If you hold your Bitcoin on your laptop and someone steals them, the transaction is irreversible.  Regardless of the possible reality of Bitcoin security, a trusted intermediary can make the general public feel more secure when doing everyday transactions.

Also, people are very conservative with their money, so the benefit of Bitcoin needs to be extremely clear instead of being masked behind a wall of profiteering, high fees for certain transactions and more.  Companies like PayPal can take their fee as a percentage so it doesn't appear to be so high when users make small transactions, but Bitcoin's fees can't be handled in this way.

The lesson is, Bitcoin doesn't just have to appear better than PayPal.  It has to appear better than PayPal in both security and convenience and it has to be several times lower than PayPal in fees.

Bitcoin is perfectly capable of this.

Yeah I agree on this one!
If not F&F paypal is expensive as fuck!!!  >:(

I don't understand why so many people are using this, I'd rather use btc at least the money is really in your pocket!
While with paypal you pay like hell AND they can sue you months after the payments if they decide it was not correct.

Really hate PP!

250 times the fees are you dumb , and yeah i agree this fees is way more than PayPal, but but bitcoin has way better features than PayPal like no receiving and sending limit , anonymous payments can be and many more. And also abt the fees it is average 1$ per transaction which is decent for now

Miners are playing with fire by creating so much politics and delaying consensus to solve this.

According to other its a part of growing.. well instead of the fees was reducing because of the price increase reverse happening about the miners fee. Since the price of bitcoin was increase they should not change what are the fee before since its still worth it to accept them as miners fee..
Well i have some funds in bitcoin but all of them are now in paypal due to high fee for every transaction and i want always my money safe.. that is why i deposit them all in paypal instead  for online payment and buying service about seo online.. so i can save..

It depends on transaction size, how you have calculated this. If you haven't received small amount of bitcoin than you still don't have to pay a lot. Current recommended fee for transaction with median size is just 0.00067BTC, so with 1BTC in fee you can make 1000+ transactions.

What these damn miners are not getting is this :

--> Higher fees = less transactions
--> Higher fees = less adoption

People will use Bitcoin less as a currency and more like a investment commodity. What happened to the "Cashless payment system" envisioned

by Satoshi? Will greed ultimately kill this technology too.... I think so.  >:(

Clearly part of the problem is that the fee is linked to a "transaction size" that is meaningless to most people, difficult to impossible to control, and not linked at all to the amount being sent.

I think fees are too high across the board, but at least if I'm sending 1BTC or more I can accept to pay a few bucks in fees. If I want to send a few bucks, then Bitcoin is now out of the question. This needs fixing urgently, or Bitcoin will be known as the supposed "currency" that is only useful to drug dealers and money launderers who like their big banknotes.

Some very high fees. But 250x transactions with Paypal and your account gets suspanded... jk.

What if we exchanged the amount that we wish to transfer into an alt (like Litecoin), transfer and then exchange back?

seriously stop reading reddit!!

its core that remove the fee control mechanisms not the pools
try to follow the code updates not the reddit scripts.

i have noticed over the last couple years your posts have been diluted down to just bing the repeated rhetoric of reddit script writers. please take time to research stuff because your content is starting to appear more and more like the crap rhetoric rather than the open minded researched stuff you use to post about.

These mining fees/transaction fees has been a major concern in recent times and so we need to address it before it gets out of hand, how can you pay this much for such a small transaction. I'm totally against those delays and I hope it will be addressed soon.

The fees are high, but that itself is not fair, people are not willing to wait at the end of the ledger for a confirmation and prefer to buy something a place in the next block with higher-than-average fees, and the cycle continue.

I don't know who to blame regarding that since no one is doing something wrong and all within the acceptable bitcoin boundaries, the only solution I can think of is raising block size, but that would result in a dilemma in it's own.

If segwit gets activated the delay should disappear but i dont know if it is also part of segwit solution to reduce the transaction fees but according to segwit white they reduce the TX size by putting it in an off-chain network so the transaction fees will be possibly reduced once segwit gets implemented, it will no longer be 0.005USD/bytes.

I don't agree to the fees like everyone but I don't think it's so unacceptable, though these are horrible for mini-payments, but for regular payments it's still cheap, and this isn't permanent at all IMO since the network get this congested once in a while.
Lastly fees are voluntarily, we can even pay no fees but confirmation is not guaranteed at all.

I think people are extremely tense regarding this recent fee and unconfirmed Transactions hiatus, The fees are indeed large but this is in no way permanent I think, this crisis even started just few weeks ago, I'm sure solution would be reached in a month or so, And also the unconfirmed KB's are decreasing steadily (if you are checking chain.so), I guess they would stabilize later around 50000 KB, which wouldn't be that bad.

That is what most of us are expecting. I hope they fee and transaction delay issues be resolved fast.

Miners artificially increasing the recomended fee by choking the network with rubbish transactions, isn't wrong? Miners not allowing Segwit to activate, isn't wrong? BU gang looking to perform a hostile takeover, isn't wrong?

It shouldn't be a dilemma at all. But at this point even activating Segwit won't do much to counter the spamming problem. It will make spamming more cost intensive, but that doesn't mean the entities behind these attacks will back down. I am fairly sure that the high level of spam that the network experiences right now, isn't even half of what it will be after some time.

No actually it is not.
Because just transferring bitcoins is useless if you can't buy groceries with it.

People who you send money to will have to exchange them in order to use it (cause small payments)..so you send 2000$ with 2$ but the person receiving it will have to send it again to an exchange and then use a bank account and.... why not use the bank in the first place.

I remember the enthusiasm 3 years ago about this:
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scots-cafe-becomes-first-accept-3015672

I wonder how many clients he still has

With poloniex I can withdraw for 0.0001BTC.

Much cheaper than sending from my wallet directly. Confirmations very quick. And poloniex is even making money as they combine so many transactions together that they can use a smaller fee than the combination of all the 0.0001 they charge.

Of course, very bad for decentralization...

this is insane. today when I was transferring around 0.025btc(3500rs in my local currency) it cuts 0.004btc(450rs) just as a fees. Now its really horrible for me because that is almost my 1month Wi-Fi bill. I can not afford paying such a high fees instead I decided now to transfer coins directly to traders who will exchange them as a local currency.

Say whatever you want, but the fees are massive nowadays, just imagine if you want to send something small like 0.001 bitcoin that you got from small transactions. The transaction size would be way bigger than just 250 bytes. Take into consideration for example 3 times bigger transaction. So basically if 250 byte transaction costs about 1.25 usd, to send over 0.001 from like 5 smaller transactions in your address you would have to pay 3.75 dollars. That's insane, the fee would be like twice as big as the actual money sent.

Right now fees are higher and increasing but it won't reach to that level . Even with less fees , it can get confirmed in few days .

The problem is that there's no one that regulates the fees and the per byte transaction isn't what the basis should be. I also had to pay $1.25 for a little less than .01 BTC when a few months back it used to be way less than that amount. And doesn't even confirm within the two hours.

Accelerated confirmation and TX tools, sites and system are popping up left and right now.  This coin has finally gotten some direct face to face competition and it will be interesting to see where this goes.  Within the system that this coin has evolved, there is a compromise of the basic building blocks of crypto in order to get faster confirmation/approval times.