Bitcoin Forum

https://blog.bitmain.com/en/uahf-contingency-plan-uasf-bip148/

Bitmain is announcing that if BIP148 succeeds, then they are essentially going to mine a new SHA-256 altcoin instead of Bitcoin. If you don't do anything, it'll be as if mining power dropped somewhat, but you'll otherwise be completely unaffected.

I feel like some people might read this statement as trying to force a decision between Bitmain's altcoin and BIP148, but you should be roughly equally unaffected whether or not you enforce BIP148. It might help BIP148's chances a little due to removing Bitmain from consideration and therefore increasing the chances of activating the traditional BIP141 SegWit deployment, though I continue to be pessimistic about BIP148's chances; I consider continuation of the status-quo and a somewhat later BIP149 UASF as the most likely outcome.

I kinda doubt that they're actually going to stick by what they say here, but if they do, it only seems like good news. If you'd like to use a currency controlled by a single company that puts its ability to use its patented Asicboost tech above all other considerations, feel free! I'll stick with Bitcoin, thank you very much.

oh i knew this would happen, what is this new coin that they would mine a fork of the original chian or an enterely new one, or maybe a coin already on the market?

price dropping mean that other miners will come and the profit will increase drastically, which is good for new comers

also seems that mienrs forget every time that the exchange is what matter, they will only lose profit by switching to a new coin without volume, and maybe not even listed anywhere...

It'll be a new fork of Bitcoin sort of in the vein of how XT/BU/Classic would've worked, but apparently he plans a little extra premine of 5400 "BTC" for himself.

Oh thanks god! Thanks Jihan! Please mine your own coin, please let go off bitcoin.

Another good reason to mine bip148 for miners!

And BU isn't astroturfing? ::)

Premine? You mean the part where they solo mine for 72 hours?

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This has got to be one of the stupidest "contingency" plans that I've read so far. If anything, this will make the UASF movement stronger.

Yeah, it serves absolutely no purpose except to get 3 days of mining rewards to himself.


Agreed.

If BIP148 doesn't succeed will they continue to mine legacy chain? (status quo chain)

I'm OK with both BIP148 & status quo TBH. But I would never support a contentious hard fork.

If the chain splits, it will be bad from an image perspective for BTC. Pride destroyed whats supposed to be a brilliant master piece.

You'd rather not posting it, if jihad reads it he may reconsider  ::), or his BU shills (which dwell on this forum) may show him this post

It will not be an alt, it will be bitcoin. Only alt might be uasf chain. Don't believe the people that will tell you to sell off your non uasf chain tokens either. You will regret it for life.

Finally the removal of toxic Core/Blockstreamer influence and on to making bitcoin great again! Very bullish news!

Why would you support a centralized shitcoin? That makes no sense to me.

Only centralized shitcoin will be Cores UASF who has a very minority support.

And how would a UASF chain mined by ACTUAL bitcoin users be centralized?
A Jihancoin will be mined by Bitmain only. How is that decentralized?

he gets topnotch chinese buds from Jihad

Big words from their side, but no, I clearly don't believe them. They will not go away from the precioussss Bitcoin for a (worthless!) altcoin they'd create.
This is only a "political declaration" (which I've learned that's the nice way to say about a lie). However, I will not be neither happier nor sad, I think that this means nothing and nothing will change.

You're saying Jihan and the many big blockers aren't actual bitcoiners? Sounds like an emotional thing to say. And to answer your question, maybe it won't be centralized, but it definitely won't be bitcoin with minority hash power. Don't fall for the lies. We will soon have a superior bitcoin with large blocks and we may also have a Core/Segwit altcoin. Ignore false narratives that try and flip this.

Bitmain's mining network is perfectly decentralized, enriched with backdoored miners all over the world.  ::)

For now they are bitcoiners but it won't last long. Soon they will be shitcoiners after their hardfork

Explain to me how uasf will be bitcoin with a minority hashpower but this hard fork would be an altcoin with a majority hashpower and majority of the ecosystem backing it? You have it completely backwards. There's bitcoin, and then there's Core trying to desperately keep their grasps on bitcoin with uasf.

I'm not sure I'd call it much of a chain split myself. It's one tumour going off to do its own thing while everyone else does theirs. I will not be doing business with a chain entirely controlled by one person.

This little fella seems to be condemned to keep attempting the same thing in a different form forever. He should be put out of his misery for his own sake or be left to go off and play with himself on his own.

Jihan might be a bitoiner but he is also the CEO of a mining cartel. I rather have cypher punks as users than Jihan and pals.
I'm not a UASF supporter but saying that only because it has minority hash power it's not Bitcoin is so wrong on so many levels.
You think hash power is the only thing that makes "Bitcoin" Bitcoin?

This is what we should have expected

And this is what I've been telling many times myself, namely, that miners (Jihan Wu's puppets, specifically) will leave no stone unturned to escalate things further (to keep things where they are now). But I don't think that they are really going to stake everything when the time comes to decide and actually follow their decision. This will just turn out the same bluff as it has always been the case before with miners and the stuff they have been proposing (like BU and similar bullshit)

I was waiting for some action from the dark side! And here it is!
To be honst I don't think Jihan is really that stupid! OR is he? A 100% centralized Jihancoin, premined and probably without nodes fully validating transactions as Jihan hates this right?! Who is going to use this crap? And what developers shall work on this? I'd guess NOBODY!
I say he is bluffing. Hot air! Empty words!Just some more FUD!
This is soo much more fuel for UASF 148 right now.

25hashcoin is probably a bought account employed by Jihan or Ver, no one should believe anything that shill says. If you check his posts, one day he is 100% pro core and the next 100% pro Jihan, a complete 180 turnaround in a short span with no explanation.

As for the Jihan HF, I would be very happy if he and his conspirators forked off the network. He and anyone else who thinks they can hijack Bitcoin need to be taught a lesson.

Jihan shills are ready to name their alt as "bitcoin" woohooo!

This gon' be gud.

What a freakshow  ;D


Exactly my thoughts. Added him to my "ignored/jihan spammers" list decades ago.

No, but nice try. That's all you Core people can do is accuse people of being shills isn't it? Is it really that unfathomable that real people wan't to actually scale bitcoin with larger blocks how it was intended? Yes, I used to be a pro Core sheep and didn't know any better but I realized I have been duped. Here's some great reading material for anyone who isn't sure whether or not they are acting in bitcoins best interests: https://keepingstock.net/an-open-letter-to-bitcoin-miners-c260467e1f0

How about you explain to us how this "uahf" will be bitcoin after bitmain mined it privately for 72 hours?
How can you accept any chain as bitcoin that has a 432 block part being mined in private?
Sounds like bit(main)coin to me.

A "real" person cannot possible believe the shit you post. You shills really should at least make an effort to not sound like shills, then maybe people might think you are a real person and not some bought, employed, mouth-piece for Jihan and his conspirators.

I really don't see how you can possibly even think that. The majority in this space seem to side with big blockers. It seems you may be a victim of censorship and echochambers if you really think that way. I have the same reaction to posts like yours just now. Hard to believe people are really that brainwashed.

I just noticed the selfish mining and premine part as well.

I'm starting to believe this is some sort of performance art piece now.

Most people here are not big blockers, what forum you been reading (oh right, r/btc)? Most people do want a capacity increase but they want it done safely and not by Jihan Wu, BU or their shitty development team. Since you seem to be living in your own "echochamber" as you /r/btc shills like to say, most people here do not trust Jihan and his people have Bitcoin's best interests at heart, and for good reason.

You can't expect them to be honest/fair.

Bitmain is a company, a company is an centralized entity.

They have no other way but to have control over their product.

Bitmain is trying to be a central bank. Let them have it. :D

nice shot with that extra premine NICE :D he is god he will mine it with all asic boost miners ...
He doens give fuck ? Trash asicboost miner ? no mine BU altcoin and get some cash + add some premine Genius.
He will HF to self defence aiscboost tech ^^

Centralized + prmined ? hmm we are going to see Etherum 2.0 :D nice

Thanks for confirming you are, indeed, stuck in controlled echochambers and haven't the ability to consider what other sides have to say without bias.

I'm waiting for what you "have to say without bias".

I don't see anything significantly bad here, let them seperate away from us if they so wish, and they'll soon notice that it was likely the worst decision they ever made. It's top notch greed, but it will cost them dearly, that is almost a guarantee. But then again, I am sure that this is just the regular barking dog behavior - big talks at start, where later nothing happens at all.

However fucked up UAHF proposal is, the UASF with minority of hashpower is still an altcoin. Period.

am i reading this right! bitmain is essentially saying the rest of the hashrate is going to bee boobs while they mine (their version of) bitcoin for 72 hours = 432 block = 5400BTC and then expect others to build on top of it?!!

Bullshit, that's a bluff and he's trying to intimidate other miners, the fact that he has the balls to say something like that shows how centralized

His operations are, there is no consensus in doing what he is trying to do, no one is in support of splitting Bitcoin in half and only a stubborn and

Hostile party would attempt such a thing. maybe he wants to have a coin like ETC for himself, and now look at the difference between ETH/ETC.

The bad part is that they are not going to separate for real

This is a poorly disguised, too obvious and easily seen through attempt to postpone the inevitable end of mining as we know it today (i.e. highly monopolized and heavily abused). The only possible explanation if Wu and Co are actually going to get done with Bitcoin is Jihan going totally nuts, which is unlikely. SegWit and further updates will surely eat away at his profit margins but they are pretty wide anyway to deliberately go for something as suicidal as creating a Wucoin. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Jihan denounced his actions later as intentional trolling (to save face)

lol

and yet the august forkers. who orphan off oppositing blocks are also going to be "pre-mining" their own chain until they can kiss enough ass to get others to join them

seems theymos cant even see the same crap happening for the crap he supports also,

all in all expect summer-autumn to be a clusterf**k of orphans, double spends and other issues.. all to try pushing segwit in before november...
smells like BScartel (Blockstream Barry Silbert) are getting desperate to try getting segwit activated one way, or 3 other ways

Double lol

Looks like some people will never stop shilling not even when they come out and say it straight forward that they want us sideways.
Wu wants to get lucky with us in bed such a naughty boy, triple lol.
I'd say lets intentionally split it with plans ahead of time, we'll call that Bit-hoin with 200MB block size and 3 to 30 seconds block time with a block reward of 6.75 and the main chain which will remain Bitcoin of course could continue as is without any change.

unknown developers which means we don't know their history

short time period for developing the software and implementing delicate changes, sure it mentioned testnet but is that really enough?!

expecting users to install and adopt it? we still haven't forgotten the BU node crashes and closed source upgrade. is it going to be the same story all over again?

anyone ever think that what bitmain is saying is actually just reverse psychology..

let people call his plan foolish and then....

 he reveals the punchline of.. well thats exactly what augustforkers are offering.... thus instantly making people slap themselves with a wet fish realising what the augustforkers are offering

UASF rekt. Core rekt.

Typical Chinese manipulation, this is one major bluff.

At first i was happy as fuck but now i'm thinking the same thing.

He will fight to the end. If he had the balls, he would have created his SHA256 alt with 500mb blocks already. He knows that he won't be able to exist without the bitcoin's user base.

He wants to steal that too. The users.

Not just bitcoin. Nobody sees the reality, even the core devs are blind but we will end up with a PoW change. That's inevitable.

No. I read it as a statement to get more approval for Segwit2x. It is "strange" that nobody of the hardliners of both fractions of the blocksize war has mentioned this solution here in this thread, because in the statement they clearly mention it as their goal.

It's simply a counter-offensive to BIP148. I don't support neither of both measures and don't think any of them will succeed. Segwit2x, Luke's Segwit + 2MB pan and also the newer Coop proposal seem reasonable - far from perfect, but acceptable - compromise proposals. So we have the choice.

IMO August forkers are defintely offering something better than what Bitmain announced. Yeah, BIP 148 is an aggresive way to signal Segwit, but the point is Segwit gets activated. Bitmain is just fooling around, after Segwit2x, another gig at stalling the progress.


Now or later Bitmain just wants to push Segwit through a hard fork to make it compatible with ASICBoost. When you are making around extra $100 million per year by mining, hard forking and mining your own altcoin does not seem like a ridiculous idea.

I guess Jihan Wu just added more support to BIP 148 and pushed the miners who were uncertain about BIP 148 to accept it wholeheartedly. There is still enough time to get a majority and activate BIP 148 without splitting the chain.

That's funny Theymos.  It's not an altcoin if Luke Jr does a minority fork, but its an altcoin if Bitmain does it, right?  Anyway i'm fully expecting UAHF to have majority hash power.

Majority hashrate + original blockchain = Bitcoin

This isn't going to be an altcoin, it's going to be the bitcoin we should have had 3 years ago before the push for off chain transactions became paramount at the detriment of all other improvements. And the absolute best part of this is:


All the pro's of segwit as well as larger blocks and lower fees, and even better this helps decentralisation as the mempool will shrink back down allowing nodes to get by on less ram.

The corrupt censorship King calling out Bitmain?

Well, this is rich.

Never seen a bigger bunch of hypocrites.

Theymos, you are personally responsible for creating a huge divide in the Bitcoin community through your entirely dishonest censorship tactics and misleading thousands of people into believing blatant Lies.

This has done more damage to Bitcoin than Bitmain could ever hope to achieve.

You truly do deserve to be utterly ashamed of yourself. No worries, all people of Toxic influence such as yourself are about to be Removed.

Good luck with your lies and propaganda. May the better chain win. That is all.

Majority can only be economic

All other "majorities" have nothing to do with Bitcoin. If most users (in this case represented by exchanges) stick to some other version of Bitcoin, hash rate will be instantly rendered null and void. Really, what's the purpose of all these peta and giga hashes per second if you are mining your variety of Bitcoin all alone? I'm curious if Jihan and his cronies are going to reset the difficulty (let's assume for a moment that they are really going to fork Bitcoin in the first place)

Economic majority doesn't mean shit unless they put their money where their mouths are and start mining. You could have 90% of all BTC and be completely unable to stop a hardfork because it's secured by proof of work, not proof of stake. And it's the hashrate that gives users the ability to trust the network. A minority fork is worthless because it's easily subject to a 51% attack giving users no reason to trust it.

Pretty much this, Jihan is just throwing some dumb threats around right now when it comes to Bitcoin. You can't even say this is a remotely educated one when it comes to BTC mining. Do they think people are going to follow along with them if they're going to be creating an alt coin and trying to make it compete to BTC?

Though, it will allow for more miners to come in and take the place of Jihans.

Maybe they just want to scare people into selling off Bitcoin, as the majority / close to majority hasher in the BTC network is going to leave that should scare a good amount of people. Who knows what's going to happen.

So this is the reason for the dump. I'm getting sick of this shit to be honest, Jihan needs to burn in the fires of hell. This guy is becoming a real pain in the ass.

I agree with you to the end, theymos and gmaxwell are evil they want to take over bitcoin entirely, but only if you knew how good they are in bed :D
Facts are obviously in the open and everyone can see for themselves, I could go on for days talking sh*t about Core devs/team but people are not blind, little Wu wants to be the father of the next generation of human race, he wants to sh*t coins and show a tongue to Satoshi saying I'm richer than you and I forked your bitcoin and made it my own.

No, he should be thanked and honored for having the courage and integrity to do the right thing and to lead the mining community with on chain scaling, to the benefit of everyone.

You didn't answer my question

Namely, what's the purpose of mining a coin which no one is going to use? Look, you tell about 51% attack which is possible due to aggregating enough hash power in a few hands but you fail to see how this entirely nullifies your own claim that hash rate is giving users "the ability to trust the network". What trust are you talking about if all hash rate is accumulated in just a pair of hands? It is not hash rate itself that matters, it is its proper distribution that secures the network (read decentralization). Further, if I had 90% of all coins, I could easily sell your fork into oblivion (and bid up the price of the genuine coin with the proceeds, hahaha)

You assume no one will follow but https://coin.dance/blocks shows there's plenty of miners who support big blocks and would gladly follow this fork. It's not a binary outcome either, there will be both users and hashrate moving over. And it uses the existing blockchain so all current users already have a stake in this UAHF.

Both distribution of hashrate and brute hashrate matter when it comes to trusting the network. A coin that's SHA256 based is easily attacked if it hasn't got sufficient hashrate to fend off established miners from other networks with significantly higher hashrates. And if you sell your 90% hypothetical stake of coins all you're doing is redistributing them and altering a price, this has zero effect on the direction of the protocol.

It starts to be very boring with Bitcoin, I enjoy it less and less. I may not wait to see August or something else. I am going to not take the same interest from now and maybe move my main interest in cryptocurrencies with another coin

I think we should commend his actions, this is not something that is done for personal gain, it is for the benefit of all. We should feel grateful to him, but you are too exasperated to say that he should feel honored.

This is just them trying to implement a new altcoin that they would practically profit from by a huge margin if ever it will be launched. Typical business plans here in the cryptoworld. People just want to rule bitcoins, because if they do they will be rich. Greed is the primary consideration again here.

Oh, I see that now raw hashing power is nowhere near enough to secure network?

Other networks cannot attack Bitcoin network unless they become part of this network, i.e. start mining Bitcoin, right? So it still inevitably comes down to hash power distribution, whether you like it or not. Anyway, you still have to explain how Wu is going to make his network "secure" given that he will be the one controlling it (if it does indeed come down to "distribution of hashrate"). Regarding big blocks and miners supporting them, first, we don't know how these miners are different from Jihan Wu and his accomplices (and whether they are not in fact the same bastards), and, second, as I guess, this is not the same as supporting Wu's ultimatum, to begin with


I'm curious if you are serious

An economic majority can push hashrate over eventually.  Miners can only mine for so long while loosing money on a chain that's worth way less.  I don't think UASF will actually succeed, but an economic majority could definitely render the hashrate before the split irrelevant after a month or two.

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Note - if BIP 148 succeeds and the minority chain still exists, a large amount of the hashrate on there would probably be supporting BU, so couldn't they just hard fork on the legacy chain?  Is that not possible for some reason?

If i wanted to split a chain and mine it for myself... i wouldn't announced it in advance. I would simply announce it on the day the split happens and leave it to the other miners to catch up. Obviously i won't get 72 hours worth of blocks for myself. The idea that Bitmain will solo mine for 72 hours is laughable. Miners now can prepare in case a split does happen thus Bitmain has no advantage now.

There is no such thing as an "economic majority". 95% of Bitcoin users don't care or are uneducated when it comes to the scaling debate. A handful of CEO's saying they support this or they support that, is nothing more than political gerrymandering that literally means nothing, unless they personally own large chunks of hashpower, That is.

No one is going  to use the UASF chain beyond a handful of crackpots, Blockstream shills and poor saps who got brainwashed over in the censored r/bitcoin forum. In other words, it is doomed to fail, especially when you consider that the chain with larger blocks is vastly superior in just about everyway, and it will have hashrate support... yeah, UASF is doomed.

Blathering on about an imaginary "economic majority" is laughable, it doesn't exist, your average Bitcoiner who doesn't give a shit will choose the chain with large blocks simply because it has more utility, lower fees, less congestion, etc. Meanwhile, the Segwit-UASF chain will have no hashpower, no immediate advantage over large blocks, and only a small handful of reddit users... thus exposing itself as nothing more than a half-witted astroturfing campaign which ultimately, ironically, only managed to accelerate the move towards Bigger Blocks, which is the exact opposite of what they wanted in the first place.

The small-blockers will continue to double down and double down and then double down again, even as 99% of the network upgrades to larger blocks. It's insane. But they brought this upon themselves.

They are certainly free to move to an altcoin, though. Maybe they should call it Segwit1MBforever coin. I'm sure it will do really well. They can market themselves to all the Alpaca farmers in Equador who's primary concern is whether or not they can run a full node with a Raspberry Pi in the middle of nowhere.

The hypocrisy is strong with him. Pathetic and desperate.

Did any of you Bitcoin whales started the dump on Finex?   :-X

Pls dump moar.

Jihan's cheap coins mmmh delicioussss

Correct. I don't think an UAHF coin will be worth more than $500 if it's only supported by miners and a few small companies. But I got the impression that BitPay is willing to support everything that is better than the status quo - except UASF BIP 148. So Bitmain's UAHF may get support from BitPay if UASF "succeeds" - and then they have already one of the biggest economic actors on board.

BitPay must be one of the actors that are most suffering the high fees, so their stance is understandable without any conspiracy theories. They are among the most fervent supporters of Segwit2x.


As far as I know, BU blocks would be accepted by the Bitmain UAHF, so they probably would stay on the same (forked) chain. If there is (BIP148) UASF but no UAHF, then I think there would be nothing - at least nothing technical - to impede a BU fork.



I agree with respect to the "apolitical majority". But we have two major players that could influence this majority:
- the Core client, which is the most used;
- BitPay, which is the only significant payment processor.

If Core decided to integrate BIP148 into the code (it's possible if things escalate further) then they will have some users that simply download "the latest Bitcoin version" (not knowing that it's not fully compatible to the legacy chain). That should not be ignored. However, because of BitPay's influence I think the "economically winning" chain will be the one BitPay chooses.

I'd say of all companies it's Coinbase who wield the largest phallus. They have a history of being somewhat wishy washy too.

I've no idea about the various forks, but if Bitmaincoin wins out then I'm done. I didn't sign up for that. I didn't sign up for most of what's developed but that would be the final straw.

Actually, Bitmains fork is exactly what you signed up for, true to Satoshis vision. What no one signed up for was BlockstreamCores 1mb forever banker settlement token. If that wins out, then I and many others are done. Good thing it won't win because it has a tiny minority support.

+1 for comedy, 25hashcoin. Your posts are hilarious.

After thinking about it for not too long (and after cuddling in foetal position for some good 10 minutes realizing how consensus-less fanatics have provocked this abrupt awaken of a beutiful dream) by now I am cashing my BTC immediately.

You're really persuading me with your stunningly intricate way of getting deep into my mind and influencing me. I feel like nothing more than a helpless marionette with the sheer elegance of your manoeuvring.

This is actually great news for Bitcoin holders (seriously). People are dumping for dumb reasons (is it news to anyone that there is a contentious scaling debate)? Meanwhile, the major obstacle to scaling is declaring that they are going off and creating their own altcoin, and in doing so signaling that BIP148 must have greater strength than generally realized, which means it is likely to succeed now.

In short: Bitcoin price is down at precisely the time when we can see some light at the end of the tunnel.

so this prove that miner are untrustworthy, i bet they just want to do this to have that premine, and hard fork are perfect for that i would not be surprised if they do it in the future for another reason

or they could do another one int he future, as a fork, and make that shitty "swap scam trend" with their BU fork, 1:1

I beg to differ here, mate. features appart, bitcoin is a currency and as such it has to protect value. All this frenzy TV-soap with unilateral UASF is the kind of idiocy that bitcoin could have helped to prevent a long track of idiotic monetary policies in different countries where people had been exposed until now. Stronk Bitcoin is a clear message to authorities declaring that if you screw your monies I flee to bitcoin and screw you. This last chapter is a pathetic show on how we as a community are not able to represent a decent alternative to any fiat currency. as sad as it makes me writing this.

This has been ongoing since 2010 pretty much and you shouldn't be surprised that it's still an issue. There will always be power struggles and user dissatisfaction. Everyone wants it to be all things to them while other groups want it to be all things to them.

What happend with those BU supporters these days? For months i've seen walls of text with anti-Core anti-Segwit anti-Lightning content. Look what there overlord Jihand Wu is doing now, he dropped BU and focusing on Core's disign called Segwit.  :-*

Jihan is swapping camps by supporting BIP48 ore BIP49 in the end. Saving face is very important in Asia.

true say but I find it´s normal that tensions arise and agreements may take a long time to be reached but a split-up it's breaking the game, IMO.

I can definitely say that you talk too much

You can discard the economic majority as non-existent in the same way as you can throw away the law of gravity. You may think that it doesn't exist and whatnot, but it is what gravity itself thinks which is what finally matters. In other words, your ignoring of the economic majority doesn't make it less effective. More specifically, while 95% of Bitcoin users may in fact be uneducated or even ignorant (just like you) but since their coins are mostly traded, exchanges would act as their proxies and on their behalf. So you may very well consider the major exchanges as the economic majority. And they certainly do care, and you can easily picture what they think about Jihan Wu and his efforts

I am more ignorant than the average "Legendary" here but let me tell you my opinion FWIW.  First, I love the whole idea of a good crypto, that's what brought me here to Bitcoinistan...

But, if this whole thing ends badly, I am OUT!  I'll wait patiently for an Alt that might be better, less contention and drama.  Maybe some more forward thinking too.  Include better anonymity, and I would take a good look.

BTC turning into one or more shitcoins will not work for non-tekkies like me...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C797wJaWsAESqJC.jpg

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The likely outcome of this is three chains (unless BIP148 gathers enough support so that it remains the same with status quo):
1) BIP148 Segwit.
2) Status Quo (the one that we are using today).
3) Bitmain coin.

Can you guess which one I'll be dumping? :)

While it generally looked like the split was inevitable, even I wasn't expecting quite this level of brinkmanship from both sides, heh.  My only suggestion to everyone would be not to let the big personalities set the narrative and tell you how to react.  Don't take anything at face value, regardless of who said it, because everyone has their own agenda.  Consider all the pros and cons, do your own research and make up your own damn minds.  And most important of all, don't do anything rash or hasty without thinking it through.  It might all seem like a massive drama, but calm heads usually prevail. 



I can see why it might seem like a good idea, but there if a potential to lose out doing it that way.  Hodling in the event of a split means you get coins on both chains.  Selling before the split means you have to buy back after the split and choose very carefully which chain you think has the best chance of survival.  And if you take too long deciding, the fiat price may well recover to a level above the point that you panic sold.  

There are some issues with this logic

First, you (most likely) erroneously assume that miners (represented by Jihan and his henchmen) are actually going to fork Bitcoin. So far the consensus has it that he is just bluffing and he is not going to shoot himself in the foot (or right in the head). That may well be true, and if so, things might be and likely are a lot more complicated than that (i.e. just forking Bitcoin as announced). Second, Jihan may have actually sold his soul already (to fiat demons), and he is following some really nasty plan or scheme in respect to Bitcoin and its future, so it is not just about forking Bitcoin either, and things are not just complicated, they are in fact really dangerous in what concerns the very Bitcoin existence as such

What? That is ludicrous. Who the hell is going to stick with that nonsense? What will be the token for that one? I suggest JHC (JihadCoin). Or just call it ChinaCoin.

It looks like Jihan is losing his mind. Well, idiots and their money eventually part ways. His chance to continue being a good player in the bitcoin system are over. It would be as easy as signal for BIP141 and avoid this mess, but looks like his ego is too big to accept he is wrong. What an idiot.

I do not know if I would call it that way, Bitmain is basically saying do as I say or I leave, and a large part of the community is like, leave already and leave bitcoin alone, if we get segwit activated and get rid of Bitmain at the same time then that would be great.

UASF supporters are basically saying do as we say, and a large part of the community is like, leave already and leave bitcoin alone, if we get big blocks and get rid of Blockstream/Core at the same time then that would be great.

Good luck with your altcoin goals, you fucking idiot.

The only ones benefiting from Buggy Unlimited or any other Forkcoin are:

1) Miners (for they will control bitcoin 100%)
2) Enemies of bitcoin (for people not being able to run nodes make the network an easier target)
3) Bitmain shills (for their revenue will get increased)
4) Idiots that don't have 5 bucks to spend on fees to make an onchain transaction and think the tradeoffs are worth it when they could reach the same goal with Litecoin

Yeah, but I do not see how this is not going to sunk the prices of both chains. BTW, it wasn´t that bad, I just happen to be very graphic in my expression :D

Real nice buddy.

Even Theymos has always said that anything that changes consensus rules without overwhelming majority or any client that isn't Bitcoin Core is an altcoin. UASF fails both of these. He is a hypocrite and you will be the one on an altcoin as UASF support is seemingly nonexistent outside of censored echochambers. 

Yep, there are many more people who are willing to just go with SegWit over all the nonsense Bitmain is trying to tack on with this UAHF proposal.

Source? I see the opposite as true.

Jihan can't even show us the code yet: "Currently, there are at least 3 client development teams working on the code of the spec. All of them want to stay quiet and away from the propaganda and troll army of certain companies. They will announce themselves when they feel ready for it. Users will be able to install the software and decide whether to join the UAHF. The softwares are expected to be ready before July 1st, and it will be live on testnet by then."

I wonder if any other miners will look to premine along with him, given that the code will only have, at best, a month of review.

Not only a premine, but also a more than 51% mining share.

They won't point antpool to that chain, they will just use private owned hash power and get a smaller amount of blocks but it will be enough to start a new chain.

Do you feel you are being censored here? You're sprouting your horseshit and people are free to agree with it, yet somehow no one does. Apart from the mentally disabled useful idiot Ver, there is no one with any significat amount of BTC that supports jihancoin. Lets just let the market decide, cant wait to sell my jihan altcoins.

Check the node count. The majority of people are still running Core nodes which allows for SegWit to be signaled, not XT/BU/Classic/etc. The majority of miners have also not been signalling for what Jihan wants.

It is obvious that you are not a (very experienced) trader (or not a trader at all)

Selling bitcoins before the split would be a wise decision any way you look at it. It is almost a certain that price will crash after the split (even if temporarily) or even before it (if it is really going to happen, due to insiders cashing out), so the risk is not worth it. If you don't know which camp to stick to, you can buy back both coins at cheaper price, and thus you would be better off overall than if you decided just to hold. I guess I won't have to explain where exactly your logic fails. It should be straightforward

o rly

https://vote.bitcoin.com/

i suppose this is all just roger voting right?

yes (literally)

Another yes from me.

Pretty much. It's Bitcoin.com, the Ver cult site.

You must be a new bitcoiner.

Supporting larger blocks is simply adhering to Satoshi's original vision, Large Blocks is not "jihancoin" it is simply scaling Bitcoin the way that it was originally intended. Using that kind of vocabulary only reveals yourself as either being New, Brainwashed or having Low intelligence, or possibly all three.

Anyone worth their salt knows that Blockstream are the ones attempting to fundamentally alter Bitcoin, and nothing is more worthy of being called an altcoin than the Astroturf'd UASF crapcoin. Segwit in itself is also a radical change, much more radical than simply increasing the blocksize.

Get off r/bitcoin and go read a book or something.

Oh geez, what a bad idea for voting. Like I really have nothing better to do than scrounge around for all my public keys, or transfer funds off exchanges to offline wallets just so I can cast a vote. No wonder the results are whacked.

For an important, formal vote it's a nice idea. For a simple gauge of sentiment it's worthless as it is inconvenient and thus only counts those who are most committed and active on the site in question - in this case, Ver's own site.

I'm curious. What BU has against Core? And why the change of mind regarding the so called "best developers and cryptographers in the world"?

Ive been around longer than you have buddy. Not gonna waste time with refuting your BS, you buy your large-block altcoin, I'll buy the core one. Good luck.

Cool story, please sell your entire stash now, then.  I'll also be buying when it's cheaper, so I'll have my original coins I'm still hodling, plus the coins I buy on sale.  You'll just have the coins you bought on sale and a few more fiat IOUs.  We'll see who fares better in the long run.  I have no interest whatsoever in exchanging my crypto for cash or some pretend numbers on a bank's ATM.  I may well ride out the storm by daytrading some alts, but fuck fiat.  I would only ever exchange crypto directly for products/physical assets/services and even then only at the point where my purchasing power is huge.  I'm going looooooong on Bitcoin and burning through my fiat before it becomes worthless.


//EDIT:  Also


For someone who is always there at the drop of a hat to point out everything that's apparently wrong with mining in their "expert" opinion, I have to ask, have you actually understood (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1679109.msg16979896#msg16979896) how (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1679109.msg16980136#msg16980136) mining (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1679109.msg16980314#msg16980314) fundamentally (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1679109.msg16981050#msg16981050) works (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1679109.msg16985142#msg16985142) yet (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1679109.msg16988144#msg16988144)?  Because there's still a pretty big question hanging over that if I'm brutally honest.

Long term holder and lurker here. Been in BTC since 2011 and I have been following the scaling debate closely for the past year.

All I can say is that the misinformation and FUD is really strong on both sides of the debate.

When I started reading about the scaling debate I naturally sided with Core because of their legacy, and the community sentiment (r/bitcoin specifically) overwhelmingly favored Core.

However upon doing my due diligence and spending a few months reading the lf core mailing list, github discussions and dissenting opinions, I came to the conclusion that it is impossible for someone who doesn't follow these discussions on a daily basis to discern the truth from the FUD. And that applies to both sides of the debate.

I also realized that some of the Core devs weren't as trustworthy as I thought they were, and that some of them became so entrenched in their position that they failed to see the bigger picture and refused to even consider a compromise.

The discussions around Segwit2x especially have been an eye-opener for me, as well as luke-jr's push for BIP148. He can be so disingenuous in his comments, such as saying that no matter what happens BIP148 will be the legacy chain (the real "bitcoin"), that it made me realize how big of an ego he has. Either that or he has a specific agenda.

Bitcoin is not owned or dictated by a single entity. Despite Core's long-standing reputation, bitcoin is a decentralized network and as such need majority consensus to successfully implement a protocol change. This is why i also oppose any unilateral action from the miners' side.

There is also one thing that a lot of people seem to overlook: Exchanges. Exchange have a lot of power in the bitcoin ecosystem, even if they remain silent most of the time. It is my opinion that exchanges will ultimately decide the fate of Bitcoin post August 1st if there is no compromise between miners and users. Users will end up following the longest chain and the economic majority which is currently heavily skewed toward exchanges.

That is not to say I favor bitmain over core. I try to remain neutral and understand both sides, with only one goal in mind which is the long-term success of bitcoin. But what I have seen lately is one side trying to compromise while the other side is doing everything they can to sabotage that effort. I will let you guess who's who.

The best thing that could happen to bitcoin IMO is an abundance of client implementations and less centralized mining. If Core wasn't the main bitcoin client (mostly due to first-mover advantage), I think we would have a very different picture of the scaling debate and much more fruitful discussions that wouldn't resolve around the same argument for years.

Satoshi's vision was not centralized control of Bitcoin under the thumb of a miner ripping off users, ignoring the entire development community and using secret mining techniques to destroy the competition. Get real.

Segwit has been implemented with no issue on many altcoins now, so your opposition to it is outdated and ludricrous. You're just trying to keep us all under Bitmain's thumb to keep paying high fees.

You are also being ignorant in pretending the UASF is connected to Core. They've been dragging their heels about it despite the chorus of calls from the community to support BIP148.

Bitmain already effectively exercises veto control over Bitcoin. Not that it will happen, but if they forked like they are claiming they will do and their coin didn't die they'd have total control over it.

I've been telling the same a few pages back

The economic majority is not something ephemeral or abstract, it is a real force which basically comes down to what ordinary users are going to choose. But since they most likely ain't going to delve into gory details of the debates and clashes between miners and developers, they will just delegate their voice to someone or rather something which they trust by default, i.e. exchanges. Indeed, there are quite a few people who just hold their bitcoins in their personal wallets, but since their bitcoins don't move, they cannot be considered as economic agents at all, let alone the "economic majority" even if their numbers are high (which is not very likely anyway)

nice post
I do dislike UASF because of the precedent it presents as governance model in bitcoin. I find it is a bigger problem that transaction fees (and this is not a small one nor it is not urgent).

This even makes retrospective sense when you look at how successful altcoins tend to be the ones you can easily trade and exchange. It's not a coincidence one of the first things a new coin or token seeks is listing on as many exchanges as possible. And with most local crypto exchanges still dealing *only* in Bitcoin, with possibly not enough information or incentive to care about anything else, there's really one logical outcome as to which they'll choose to remain with.

Large-block altcoin. Wow. Yep - You are completely brainwashed.

There is no helping you people.

The *entire development community* or just some of them? A very significant part of the *development community* supports larger blocks.

Satoshi called for nodes that would eventually be hosted in datacenters. In his own words, "The eventual solution is to not care how big the blocksize gets." Crying about some mythical centralization is just a red herring to further your own personal agenda.

Then you pull the Bitmain card, which is ludicrous - Increasing the blocksize limit will result in lower fees.

As for Segwit, yeah I don't trust it because it was developed by BS/Core who have shown they are extremely Toxic and cannot be Trusted under any circumstances, Period. They reneged on the original HK agreement. They lie and they resort to censorship, which the OP - Theymos - has played a major part in. These tactics are not only dirty but it signals that there are some serious Ethical Failings over at Blockstream, and this is also a sign of weakness on their part.

If Segwit eventually gets activated, great. But it shouldn't be considered a blocksize increase on it's own (it's not) and it shouldn't be used as an excuse to Never increase the blocksize, which is clearly what Blockstream is gearing up to do.

Gavin called out Luke-jr for being a poisonous individual five and a half years ago in this thread here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=62037.180 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=62037.180)

Guess who's one of the biggest supporters of UASF over at Core? Haha. Gavin was right.

I genuinely feel bad for these people, especially as someone who used to buy into BlockstreamCores BS. And now you have Core/Blockstreamers urging people to dump the non uasf chain after the split. A lot of people are going to lose a lot of money if they follow peoples advice like Lukejrs. Feed sad for these lost users blindly following Blockstream and believing people like OP.

I am not selling too. I made that mistake before. Now i know. Bitcoin is for long term hold. No matter what happens. And UASF is a perfect chance to double your coins. If we get a Bitmaincoin HF, it is even better. More coins to dump, now we can triple our shares.

A lot better than selling for FIAT.


Been here since 2011 and created an account just to write that BIP148 isn't the way to go. Not buying this, nice try Jonald.

There's an argument to be made that there could be a BTC supply shortage on exchanges prior to August 1st, due to a larger percentage of people pulling their bitcoins off into wallets they control. If that happens, but demand remains constant, you could see the price go higher. I'm currently bearish, but there might be an opportunity there for people willing to take the risk of keeping their bitcoins for sale on the exchanges nearer to August 1st.

Keeping your coins on an exchange may be your only chance to capitalise on multiple chains. It's quite possible one or more will be so painfully slow until a difficulty change that you won't be able to move them quickly enough. By that point it may all be over.

No need for drama guys. Could someone simply state a technical reason why the core proposal would not be a good idea?

That's true, too, as long as the exchange provides you with virtual bitcoins on both sides of the fork. It's not clear to me that every exchange will do so.

So we are back to a BTU Coin?

How can everyone be right when everyone is wrong?

Compromise or walk away from each other.

This whole thing comes down to who gets the legacy/brand.

Fight until everyone walks away from you.

Good to hear that we could see a network upgrade to rectify the issues we are facing right now,but what is the use of a shit coin someone creates just to go on with his ego,we already have more than enough shit coins to go through and it is all bull shit talk from bitmain just to see how much support they are getting if they come up up with an altcoin. ;)

Don't be fooled. Only shitcoin will be the UASF one. Bitmains roadmap has majority support of the ecosystem.

Thanks for proving my point.

Comeback with your main account and say what you have to say... Only then maybe someone will take you more seriously. (I still doubt it tho)  8)

I knew you would get attacked solely based on your account age. That's all they have. I appreciate you sharing your story, as I have had a similar experience. Core is being exposed at a rapid pace now.

This is my main account and I said what I had to say. Feel free to address my points or stop trolling.

This is exactly the kind of behavior that has turned the bitcoin community into a toxic environment, and why I haven't participated into other discussions before. I feel the scaling situation is reaching a tipping point and wanted to add my voice to the chorus, however insignificant you think it is.

The community can't reach consensus if there is no respectful communication between the opposing parties to begin with. Unfortunately I feel that we are past that point, and that both sides are to blame for the current deadlock situation.

There isn't anything to communicate with Jihan shills.

They tell us they want 8mb blocks, we tell them that's no gud. They tell they will fork. We tell go ahead. They puss. They keep spam. They block our progress. We tell them if you want to fork, fork your mom. They refuse. We say, if you don't wanna fork, we can fork yer mom how abawt that? They refuse again.

https://i.imgur.com/Sq7BlY6.jpg

There is no other option but FORCE them to fork now.  8)

Satoshi talked about digital cash. You can't have digital cash with corporations running the nodes. Satoshi was wrong, he failed to predict the current situation. Bitcoin loses its store-of-value properties with a large blocksize.

Most people with real money invested in bitcoin don't care about whatever "satoshi's original vision" was. They understand being able to run nodes is a priority.

Good luck with premined ChinaCoin if that's what you want.

you can have digital cash without corporate control... growth via NODES (dynamics) means nodes display what they can handle and pools follow the consensus..

there is no "gigabytes by midnight causing datacentres" debate .. you have been hypnotised into that FUD

you have been brain washed that the BScore-porate control is the only way..

all the segwit imps and bips
gavin+garzig(BLOQ->DCG)
baryysilbert(dcg)
core(blockstream->DCG)
uasf(samson/lerner->DCG)

are all the same BS

BS= blockstream, B*ll S*it, barry silbert...  its all the same BScartel

goodluck with you BScoin

Satoshi wasn't wrong when one's reads "between the line." The current situation prevents anyone from trying to change digital cash into something else without consensus, thus working as intended. Corporation isn't running nodes. There is a way to alleviate and increase the number of nodes to prevent centralisation but it seems no one is listening. It is either Core's way or no way.


Please stop being stupid, this is fuding at its worse.

Irrelevant and wrong again. Satoshi's original vision still stands and short-term speculators are of no interest to me.

That is what i am expecting with them if they are planning to create a new coin,they will premine and make trillions with it but who will be investing in it. :D This is a real threat by them and we now have a date on how things might go in the bitcoin world,i am not sure whether this will be a thing to be worried as the uncertainty increases how will the market react to these news,i think there will be a correction because i am sure people will panic .

Don't worry there are plenty of premined scam coin addicts around. If they can't find anybody to sell their shit coins, I am pretty sure Eth people will lend a hand.

Educate yourself:

https://medium.com/@adam_selene/nodes-e3bb49364b3a

https://medium.com/@jonaldfyookball/why-every-bitcoin-user-should-understand-spv-security-520d1d45e0b9

What is funny about this to me is that the whole premise of Bitcoin is to have a low-cost, decentralized currency.  However:

1. It isn't low-cost (a $1 transaction costs $4 with the transaction fee (at a minimum))
2. It isn't decentralized (1 organization has a massive influence).  This announcement has caused a swing of $400 USD in the currency value TODAY!

I say bring BIP148 and give the valuable coin back to the ordinary miners that don't have massive warehouses of efficient miners with free energy in China?  Would that actually happen (I legitimately don't know to make a judgement)?

I always like to think they are just bsing. They want to appear like they are in control and their ego + greed gets in their way.

Let them have their alt shitcoin. They will go bankrupt and we will be the ones who are correct on the changes to be implemented.

Bloody brilliant idea to crash the price below $500.

I see this as a scare tactics and look at how the market responded to this news,the market went down because of the bullshit proposal they made. Lets say even if they create their own shit coin i am sure they will be investing their time in bitcoin as these sort of techniques are used just to get attention and let  others know that they are in control over bitcoin. :P

the way mining works condemns the process to concentration. it doesn´t have to be under the same owner but concentration is the only way. Sunking the price actually damages only the regular home-based miner bloke. We shouldnt believe conspiranoias. Most miners are modest home/garage-based miners.
There is no easy solution for that.
Anyway this is all bitcoin politics against miners when miners are actually needed in the whole system. In fact mining is not the problem at all. The problem that must be answered is the bottleneck in the transaction flow. that´s it. that will bring times and fees back to normal. If you use a system that damages mining income too much you are heading for more centralization.


regarding price. Any non-agreed move in bitcoin will lead for a severe correction. August was to be tough yesterday and it´s going to tough tomorrow. Today is official but the split was the most likely scenario with ot without announcement.

You keep repeating this "there is no "gigabytes by midnight causing datacentres"" nonsense. When will you understand that technologies like bitcoin, get exponentially adopted which would mean there would be no way to smoothly scale on-chain transactions to handle all the demand without ending up with datacenters running nodes?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8iEr1yB8kAg/UR_uP_GzFTI/AAAAAAAAAws/J-fl_ypqsTc/s1600/Historical+adoption+curves.gif

Notice how "gigabytes by midnight" would indeed be the case once the curve of adoption reaches the typical steepness and then you are fucked if you want to keep the fees low and keep everyone transacting on-chain happy without complains of "blocks are full".

lol "by midnight".......    ??

1. bitcoin WILL NOT become a one world currency where everyone is using it for everything...
2. bitcoin WILL NOT become a one world currency

once you stop hitting your head against the BS brick wall and wake up to realitiy that OVER DECADES
wait have to make this clear for you
OVER DECADES
and using an actual realistic user adoption growth and expectation. bitcoin can grow and cope.

your argument is like trying to tell activision to cease making Call of duty games because millions of people cant online game... when infact millions of people do online game.. and ontop of that they livestream in HD their gameplay, while also running commentary through voice chat and livestreams simultaneously.

holding at 1mb when 32mb is capable, but 8mb is 'average joe in wheatfield safe', and even when core themselves deem 4-8 safe but prefr 4mb to be extra anal.. shows how fooled you are.

there is no reason for 1mb to remain at all.. no reason

the hold at 1mb due to gigabytes by midnight, is the same stupid mindset as amputating newborn babies legs out of fear they may run into a car when older. so stopping them from running is the solution and throwing them into a electric wheelchair is the counter-solution to the amputation solution

Bitmain is a recipe for economical distaster for everyone. If anyone want to loose his wealth then is free to follow them

https://i.imgur.com/rWjpSLM.png

but...
I have a new hat for them :P and their supporters like franky1... :P

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCUTHlgUQAA_0MZ.jpg

Its funny to see so many people taking Bitmain words so seriously. If nothing else, mining secretly a chain with Bitmains 20% hashrate does not make any rational sense because there going to be always longer chain with the remaining 80% non-Bitmain hashrate, no matter how you split the remaining 80% between BIP 148 altcoin and Bitcoin. So it is just some politic game/influencing the markets instead.

Talk is cheap, it reminds me theymos saying when median fees increases over $1, base blocksize increase should be considered  :)

Well, none happened by "midnight" that's for sure.

There are many solutions yet to be explored.

Datacentres - Do people expect that to mean large corporations? Anyone can run a datacentre from their home.

Both are important - I think the coin that BitPay and Coinbase support will win. Both have supported Segwit2x. For BitmainCoin, it is only speculation that Bitpay could support them if Segwit2x fails.


I don't like Bitmaincoin because the power balance in this chain would be greatly distorted towards the miners. But as already said the most reasonable outcome is a compromise because this way we avoid splitting the community and reducing the network effect. My favourite is a soft-forked 2MB+Segwit solution proposed in the German forum (where only new-style tx could fill the 2MB) but Segwit2x is also ok.

If there is a split, I think the "flippening" will occur instantly and even Ripple has chances to get a higher market cap than any of the 2 or 3 Bitcoin-based chains.

im laughing soo much

1. you cry bitmain has all the power and so blaming bitmain for hashing on bitcoin and demanding bitmain go play with an altcoin to not veto BScoin
2. when bitmain says it will take its hashpower out of bitcoin to another alt thus actually helping u bscartels have less hashpower vetoing bscoin....  you cry again..

seems you cannot even see the reality and instead prefer to see fud.

as for calling me a supporter. i begin laughing even further. just because i hate the BScoin agenda that began in 2014.. does not mean i belong in another team/brand

but i think its hard for sheep to not understand anything beyond the lifestyle of sheep. which may explain why many cant understand the logic that i stand on my own with my own opinions.

but enjoy crying about anything spoonfed to you by the r/bitcoin controller theymos.

maybe worth people start to think byond what has been spoonfed to them and see all the possibilities..

TL:DR;
if bitmain move to another altcoin.. the BSCartel are 16% closer to getting their BScoin
try to take a break have a coffee and think about the info handed to you.. repeating reddit scripts adds nothing to the debate

this was helpful for me: https://keepingstock.net/an-open-letter-to-bitcoin-miners-c260467e1f0

you deserve an answer not for me but for your beloved Bitmain company


yeah a software called bitcoin core. First time i hear this :D
and another...


what is your real name again? Because i like to propose you as a candidate of Bitcoin Unlimited president...  ;D

go ahead and argue away. 

the fork is happening.

nothing you post here will influence miners or businesses.

who really cares? legacy chain will win once again and you will one more time find what Bitcoin means....

exactly.  the decisions already have been made.  99.9% of bitcointalk is just noise to the world.

the most noise here is you and Bitmain loved boys. The majority of nodes are still legacy chain....
just to say :P

What's better than being a whale on 1 chain?  Being a whale on 2 chains!!!  

Maybe Bitmain really wants a HF???

i agree with that. Is better for all of us all of this charlatans to leave bitcoin and fork off from the network. No one need them here and for sure no one will miss them :D

if network split then honestly i think everyone will win..we ALL get 2 coins!

You can make the argument about the network effect but i think one coin will have lion's share, even more so than Ethereum because of difficulty adjustments.

Unfortunately a HF may not get rid of Bitmain from either chain.  They have enough hash power to prop both chains as far as I can tell.

A HF for Bitmain means twice the number of coins they currently own and they can mine twice as many coins with the same hashpower, basically.

The biggest risk is obviously the combined value of all coins and future mined coins on the 2 new chains is less than what the original chain would have yielded.

It sure looks like it worked for ETH/ETC whales.

Or maybe I'm nuts...!!!!

if they had that much hash, we would have forked already.

Ok, why dont you leave Bitcointalk and join youre BU buds at reddit/btc?

B..but what happend with youre almighty BU? I thought Segwit was the worst thing could ever hapen for Bitcoin, IF i believed Jihan? And now Jihan is working with Core's disign called SEGWIT. Ha ha ha :P

Hypocrite? Fooled by Jihan? maybe a mix from both?

its still fun to stomp on trolls, both little and big.


BU is a schelling point.  big blockers want diversity of clients, BU, XT, Classic , etc.

SWSF is pretty bad -- i think it won't get activated.

So long as Bitmain's shitcoin is not named Bitcoin they can and should mine it, put all their miners on it and leave them there.

Good thing is if the hashrate drops a bit, or quite a bit, we'll all have a chance to mine ourselves.
So long as it doesn't upset network stability that much we should be fine.

Mining has become impossible for most people, last time I mined (mostly for fun and to learn more about it) was with Butterfly Labs (yes I did get mine, eventually), Bit Burners, and USB Erupters LOL
Soon after that it became too costly for small players like me to have a go.

One thing I'd like is transactions to be less expensive and Bitcoin to attract more users should really be inexpensive to use.

Let's see how things pan out...

Even if the hash rate got cut in half , ordinary people can't mine.

If big blockers leave , small block philosophy won't help fees.   One of your leaders , Adam Back, thinks users would be ok paying $100 / fee.

Actually, after a dangerous *soft fork* split with a minority hash rate, there's in fact nothing else to do for the initial majority legacy chain than to protect itself by a hard fork.  I said this a few weeks ago already.  

A soft fork imposes itself onto everybody if it is majority.  As such, a soft fork that starts out as (large) majority before being activated is not a problem from a chain splitting point of view, because the minority of miners that would like to continue the legacy chain are DIRECTLY orphaned.  This was the principle behind soft forks and things like 95% majorities.  The user will not see any difference: the chain seems to continue, and has uniformly switched to the new protocol.

A bilateral hard fork is a "clean split".  Yes, the chain splits, but once you have your two new coins, they live their independent lives happily.  You can trade them on exchanges, and by doing so, you vote with your money ; hash rate will follow.  See ETC/ETH.

However, BIP148 is a major cluster fuck: it wants to instore a chain split with a soft fork, where the soft fork is a minority split.  The whole idea of BIP148 is that bitcoin splits, that two bitcoins are listed on exchanges, and that, so is the hope, users will buy 148-bitcoin, and dump their legacy bitcoins, attracting more and more hash rate to 148-bitcoin, until it gains majority.  After a while, the 148-coin chain takes over the legacy chain, and orphans them.  But that can happen after a month or so, and all people having transacted on the legacy chain (in buying/selling coins on exchanges) suddenly see their chain (and their holdings on it) disappear !

This is a clusterfuck that should be avoided: once the two coins are appearing on exchanges, one should consider them independent, to protect the holdings of people on each chain (as well as for exchanges to be able to respect their customers and let them withdraw coins of the types they bought IOU of).  This is why in such a case, the legacy chain has NO CHOICE but to hard fork, to protect itself from re-organization, and to keep the split permanent, to turn the dangerous soft fork split into a bilateral hard fork.  Note that this could be done with a very minor modification, that doesn't even alter anything to the original chain (but honestly, if one does a HF, one could take the opportunity to increase the block limit too).  It would even be wise, in this HF, to alter slightly the signature scheme, to avoid the night mare of replay attacks, which would make it almost impossible to do what 148-coin wants people to do: to sell their legacy bitcoin, and to buy 148-bitcoin.  Because with replay attacks (especially with a soft fork !) they will have a hard time NOT selling at the same time, their 148 coins.

In other words: bip 148 is such a mess if ever it gets activated, that the only way to clean it out, is to have the legacy chain HF and make the split clean.

i've been also wondering why bitmain is pro segwit with litecoin, but they are against segwit with bitcoin

i think the answer is clear now, with litecoin they have not all the fee because there is no delay in transactions due to the block being already 4 x before segwit

with bitcoin yes, so they are just greedy miners  that want more money and nothing more

I think Jihan is just getting nervous and it has become personal at this point.

Outright lie. Then again, what to expect from someone with a history of lying and shilling for Ver? ::)

If you think that is the answer, then you're just as uninformed. The main reason is covert ASICBOOST.

It doesn't even matter anyway. Aside from turbulence in the price, I couldn't care less what he wants to do with JihadChain. I have no idea how any rational mind, who joined the ecosystem for the ideas laid down by Satoshi, would want to participate in JihadCoin. The mining monopoly/cartel is the true cancer to Bitcoin, and the worst thing to happen to it since Mt. Gox (arguably).

---

Update: Correct somewhat misleading sentence.

If Bitmain want bigger blocks, Jihan said many times he wants bigger blocks, then why do people go on about bigger fees, greedy, etc. Bigger blocks will result in lower fees but more transactions. The increases in transaction means more accumulation of lower fees. This is a win win for miners and users. Presently miners are the winners and the users are the losers due to 1mb limit.

Jihan can say he wants to take a bite out of the moon because its made of green cheese, that don't mean he really wants to do that or that he really believes it. What Jihan really wants is control over Bitcoin so he can make more money. All of his actions have been to this effect.

Coinbase will certainly refrain from that

As I got it, they basically stole Ethereum Classic from their users after the Ethereum split, so there shouldn't be any doubts that they will do it again with Bitcoin (though they may have hard time this time given they are going to support the hardfork). Major exchanges (like Bitfinex) will likely create wallets for the new coin when the dust settles a little. Regarding moving coins from exchanges to personal wallets, I'm more inclined to think that most traders will just sell their stashes for fiat or other coins such as Litecoin or Ethereum (I opted for Litecoin myself), and that will likely crash the prices on its own (this might be what we already see commencing)

This is a very superficial logic

In reality, things are more complicated than that. In other words, we shouldn't take anything at its face value when we are told something ("believe half of what you hear..."). If Jihan said something, it doesn't mean he was really going to do that. Do you really believe that he is going to hard fork Bitcoin and create a Wucoin? Further, you seem to erroneously assume that the block size increase will actually increase the number of transactions. It may in fact increase them somewhat, but not as dramatically as to offset the decline in fees. This is where things get complicated, and miners are the ones who have the first hand info in this department. But that doesn't mean they will share it with us, of course

Can we please stop with the "I was in Bitcoin before you and therefore I'm an expert in scaling Bitcoin" & "Satoshis vision"?
These are not arguments!

Please describe how Jihancoin is decentralized? It will be mined by one company only.

Actually we do not know that quite yet. It's difficult to guess who the bitcoin community (whatever the rolo they play) is going to back.
The only deduction I could rightfully make is that the total number of transactions of the 2 chains is going to decrease due to loose of trust in bitcoin-ish cryptostuff and because both, Bigblocking and Segxit, are meassures to tackle bottlenecks in transaction flows. Therefore transaction fees are to fall. we all should cheer about that, at least, no matter if you are a user, a holder, a miner or a trader.

It is also soon to value the impact on bitcoin public image.

That is nothing but baseless rumour. Evidence please.

Basically we have too much anti-chinese thing going on.

What evidence do you actually need?

Everyone and his hungry dog want to make more money. Do you need evidence for that too, especially when you have a lot at stake in something? Jihan has likely invested millions of dollars in ASICs, and now you essentially claim that him wanting to protect his investments and earn more money is a baseless rumor. I understand that Jihan's shills know no limits in arguing virtually anything that goes against their master's agenda but they should certainly care not to sound like complete dumbasses at that

imo all of this forks has not future especially without a replay attack. Exchanges will do days to trade them and of course legacy chain will survive.
As is say i will be very happy if this guys fork from bitcoin. If bitmain leave from bitcoin the network  hashrate will go back 4-5 months and if all of the miners that support bitmain leave like Viabtc, BTCTOP then the hashrate will be like 6 months before.
That means nothing happens and bitcoin network can easily move on.  
I am very sure the most Bitmain competitors wish right now this to happen to get their place.
August will be a very interest months especially to the economical game theory view.

mmh could be apparently the exploit is not possible on other algo for now, but nothing say that it could not be possible in the future, behind the asic of litecoin, there is always bitmain

so in the future they might regret choosing segwit on litecoin, if they will able to find a similar exploit, still the fee ar enot negligeable, they provide an income which is on par or at least very near with asicboost of 20%

Evidence Jihan wants control over Bitcoin.

I have nothing against people making money. I am against people trying to destroy/limit Bitcoin.

The danger here is centralization. Having only a few people controlling mining is not good at all.

this pic is for everyone that has the illusion that will survive after an economical disaster of bitcoin after Bitmain ridiculous action

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCWtXzaWsAARwNo.jpg:large

I think they are essentially against the idea that the block limit of 1 MB should remain.  Segwit as such they don't care too much about.  I think the question is rather in the other direction: why are segwit supporters (Core essentially) AGAINST block size increase ?  The two main arguments they advance for this:
- only soft forks because hard forks could lead to a chain split
- there should be many full nodes to keep bitcoin decentralized, and bigger blocks will kill full nodes

are bogus.

They are bogus because a well-done HF is much less of a danger to split the chain, than an aggressive, non-consensual soft fork, and UASF is the prime example of this ; and they are bogus because first of all non-mining full nodes have no consensus decision power, but moreover, the trick with the witness data is de facto increasing the amount of data that the full checking nodes would need to vehicle, so while a few years ago, "increasing the data flow" to 2 MB was out of the question because of the poor full nodes, now, 4 MB is not a problem if it are "witness data".

We clearly see that in all of this, there is only one single agenda: pushing people out of legacy transactions because of artificial block chain restrictions.

And all of this has nothing to do with "decentralization" (that is, many non-colluding entities having individual decision power): the decisions in bitcoin are in any case taken by a very small oligarchy of mining pools.  That's the bare reality of the state of decentralization in bitcoin.  

Litecoin was different, because 1) litecoin can be seen as a toy/testing bed so that people wanting to play with segwit can have their coin to play with ; there was no desire in Litecoin to keep small blocks for ever by Lee.  It would have been silly to require larger blocks when the current blocks are only filled at the percentage level.

That is not proof, that is just speculator money.

The altcoins will easily survive because the specs know that they will have to put back their money.

Where will they go stocks, bonds? Bullshit, they will go back into altcoins, and leave bitcoin to die.

Thats true, but it could get messy. Who knows what the little fella will do. He could be talking with the other miners to join him right now.

yeah we see this clearly every time something happen to bitcoin.
If something happens to Bitcoin will be a bloodpath for everyone and this a reality

other miners should be less blinded by their controlling desires and realise if they decide to try and impose their will on users they ain't gonna have anything to mine.

You dont understand , that money is just speculator money, they will move back and forth like idiots.

The good capital is already tied down in altcoins, probably in cold storages. Those are most likely some crazy gamblers gambling away their savings in altcoins in exchanges.

SO there is no reason to not think that that money wont come back. They wont put it in real estate, stocks, or bonds, they will come back into altcoins.

A 30% price swing is nothing, I have seen much bigger swings here, so I dont know why people are worried.

Bitcoin is dying? They tried to kill bitcoin 129 times. Maybe they will succeed with the 130th time who knows?  8)
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-02/they-tried-kill-bitcoin-129-times-each-time-it-came-back-even-stronger

Bitcoin is losing blood since February not denying it but when we get rid of its cancer, we'll get back to where we were before. Bitcoin's name itself has enough brand value to make it number 1.

After we get segwit, we'll land on the moon once again.

These artificial debates are only creating more buy opportunities.

#UASF

There have being rumors though years about bitcoin dying and those rumors still persists with the only fact that it will increase the value along with its usefulness to people. Japan has not just made it legally now but they would have thought about it and then took their decision so will now other country follows which will make its value rise further.

i can only dream of the day when we can get a bitcoin without drama so that maybe we can focus on what matters most instead of childish games of different people pulling at bitcoin!
miners to gain more money,
traders to gain more money,
altcoin pumpers to gain more money while spreading FUD about bitcoin,
...

the situation is not very good for bitmain atm

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCT_T7YUMAAMdN6.jpg:large

you would have to be crazy to be planning on long term holding any alt, ethereum included, unless you've already made out like a bandit. who knows whether any of them will be around in 3-4 years.

So how do  these people actually store their 40 billion $?

I would suppose at least half of it is in cold storage, which is owned by whales.

And the other half is like distributed between newbies who have a coffee money worth of coins.

The tied down money wont move, only the speculator kids will move their money.

So its not like the value of an altcoin will just suddenly drop to 0$ as everyone sells back into USD.

there is no 40 billion. that's market cap. market cap don't mean a thing. see it evaporate to nothing if 5% of whales decided to get out in short order. with certain alts it would only take 0.1% of whales to completely destroy everything.

I usually look at altcoins to be assessed merely as the useful part they could have for anyone and as such I only see ETH and ZEC having some background value. The rest seem to me like football tifossi movements and handsome icons.
None of them by now can say that big merchants or entire coutries have been bough in as with bitcoin, that is, until this shameful display showed up demonstrating that humans are the weakest link in the consensus system.

i also believe that is an illusion anyone to calculate marketcap of commodities in fiat money. The price of any commodity is only the price when someone sell and the others are only a guide for it.
There is hope in what will happen i two days

https://github.com/btc1/bitcoin/pull/21

if will be a suprise tomorrow with segwit2x proposal and segwit activate firs and is compatible with the current segwit proposal then Bitmain future in bitcoin ecosystem will not be so bright

This word has lost its meaning long ago

So your whole question is meaningless since you can always claim that this is not what Jihan actually wants. On the other hand, profits are simple and easily understandable to anyone with half a brain. Since it seems that you don't question that point, Jihan wants profits, and that means more hashing power and more fees for himself (think centralization here). As simple as that. But it is obviously against Bitcoin if it goes above and beyond certain limits, and Jihan has already gone well past them, even though it is an ultimate outcome of the flaws in Bitcoin design (in respect to mining)

There are thousands of miners, working together in pools. So no that isn't a few people.

Beside, what can you or anyone else do about it? Order the miners to break down into smaller pools of no more than 10%?

i hope satoshi nakamoto is working at this moment because someone is destroyinh Hes great artwork.. Miners -.-

that would be great

Sorry but you are not getting it. If someone is going to post "fact", then i will ask for evidence. As usual no evidence is presented, thus no debate can be had.

So Jihan looking to fork Bitcoin is not enough evidence for you?

If it is not, after all, then what evidence do you need? Or, I'd rather ask, do you really need any evidence in the first place? If we exclude the possibility of Jihan completely losing his mind (which we shouldn't exclude), he is basically giving an ultimatum to the whole Bitcoin community. He didn't say that directly, but it can be easily interpreted and inferred that if he is really going to fork Bitcoin, he will most certainly use his mining empire to fight with the genuine Bitcoin. Do you need evidence for that too? Just wait till he actually puts his money where his mouth is. It is certainly not about just forking Bitcoin if it ever comes to that. Basically, it is a war, but all is fair in love and warfare

So it is ok if others start a fork using UASF or Core developers getting their way.

There is only one way - the whitepaper. Any other ways, people should start their own altcoin instead of changing Bitcoin into something else.

Fact is simple kingidiot - both sides wants their way and both sides won't back down and both sides are going to fork one way or another. Attacking one side and defending the other side for doing the same thing = hypocrite.

So, The Merkle just partially attributed today's tumble to Bitmain's announcement. I thought the market's numb to these type of announcements now, or are there many new players (traders) who haven't been exposed to this kind of rhetoric?

It's funny how obvious Bitmain money is on that list. Bitpay got bribed by Bitmain, which is why Bitpay signed the ridiculous NYC agreement as well. Now it's a matter of time to see if the rest of actors are reasonable or go along with the BitmainCoin hardfork.

Yes, UASF is not ideal, but BitmainCoin hardfork is worse. At this point you might as well give people the opportunity to take control over their private keys, may a soft fork happen in august 1st. It's only safe to take preventive measures. Let people choose if they want Legacy coins or BIP148 coins. It is not a hard fork after all unlike the Bitmain mess.

So no desire to compromise even when they get everything they want NOW and the other side gets a a modest increase to 2Mb in 6 months, what are the reasons given ?

It seems that you are highly uninformed. The Segwit2x aka FrankenSegwit breaks all existing compatibility with the deployed Segwit. That's why nobody sane wants to even consider that nonsense proposal. Note: They are possibly going to change that (open PR), but it isn't a certainty.

This is the n^th time that Jihan/Ver/BU crash the price.

so you admit that already we are point that some few people have such power to impact price.
This should be obvious that Bitmain have to much size and siting on asic boost will make things only worse over time.

Bitmain is making bigger downside moves in BTC that China central bank ridding Chinise exchanges :D
this is sign of problems. People have to woke up.

PS: With UASF price didn't even started falling... With their (B)AHD  started fall fast

Why would I not admit that? I have already stated that the ASIC monopoly and mining cartel are much more dangerous than any kind of scaling issues. Just so that we are clear, all these idiots in altcoins parading "we are the best, we will win next" will get crushed. This is the time to be watching and learning from Bitcoin, i.e. how Bitcoin combats and resists malicious actors such as Bitmain.

UASF is a good proposal and may actually get a lot more support now. If it avoids a chain split, price will go up. If it does split the chain and Bitmain goes through with their attack, then we will have 3 chains. What the value of each one will be is uncertain.

Jihan Wu is currently giving a speech in some chinese blockchain event about scaling bitcoin:

https://twitter.com/ViaBTC/status/874822283033845760

I wonder what kind of lies is he propagandizing right now. I guess he is already out there promoting his ChinaCoin hard-fork.

If they wanted segwit, they would activate it already with BIP141.

-Bla bla bla blockstream evil bla bla bla
-bla bla bla bla 8mb blockz aresocoolbla
-blablablaasicboostsoawesomeblabla rovger ver isrealsatoshiblablabla
-blabla satoshi's vision was 999mb blocks blablabla

hypocrisy from the BS cartel..
1A. bitmain veto BS roadmap due by wanting fee's by grabbing expensive transactions
1B. bitmain do 'empty blocks' thus dont get much fees

2A. bitmain veto BS roadmap.. BS cries they should f**k off and make an altcoin.
2B. bitmain announce making an altcoin and everyone cries they will split the network

3A. BS dont want to split the network
3B. BS employee the UASF network splitting promoter samson mow

4A. bitmain have 70% of the network.. bs tells everyone to panic
4B. bitmain have under 17% of the network.. bs tells everyone to not worry

4A. bitmain have 70% of the network panic
4B. bitmain can make an alt they only have small 17%

... i could go on
but all these hypocrit mindsets is just becoming comedy.. all done to take peoples eyes off the ball at where the real power /centralisation is occuring.. the BS cartel

Bscartell is just pointing fingers and saying 'hey look at the 17%.."  ignore the 50% abstain. and ignore 30 bs cartel
BS cartel want to split the network but they prefer someone else to cause it so the BScartel can play the victim card.
Gmaxwell reveaed their plan too early and spoiled the plan the BScartel wanted.

sorry bscartel, you cant play the victim while also becoming the centralised corp of bitcoin
all this obsession with bitmains 17% is becoming too obvious that its just distraction games

One thing that certainly didn't change with time is the economics. 

Bitcoin-as-Settlement network is bollocks.

Actually the rational solution is SegWit2X, it is widely accepted by every one, except the Core. Bitcoin cannot be blocked from one small group of Core developers, it would just prove Bitcoin is centralized to few developers.

After SegWit2X code is finished and fully tested in July and everybody except Core on board, dont worry, the price going up because the Bitcoin stalemate is finally resolved.

Again, a clear example of uneducated statements and pure bullshit. Who is "every one"? People in suits? They do not get to dictate what Bitcoin is, otherwise we do not use a consensus *algorithm* but a proof-by-proxy "algorithm". That put aside, FrankSegwit was rejected because of two reasons:
1) Rushed software and hard fork without adequate testing.
2) Signalling Segwit on bit 4 which breaks all existing compatibility. This was done deliberately as this was no compromise but a political move.
Note: There is still time to fix this proposal, i.e. to use bit 1 (existing deployment) and make it compatible with BIP 148. Then it may get some wider support.

---

Here's my small creation. :D

https://i.imgur.com/KAhArN9.jpg

12 pages seems like a lot of unnecessary drama for something that may not even materialise.  Maybe everyone could just stop for a second, read the thread title one more time and pay close attention to the "if" part of it.  If UASF make their altcoin, then Bitmain make their altcoin.  If UASF falls flat on its face, your regularly scheduled programme resumes.  For all the angst on display in this thread, it should be noted that there's maybe an extra 50 nodes or so signalling UASF since Bitmain made their announcement.  Hardly what I'd call an overwhelming response. 

ITT:  Rival cheerleaders on the sidelines get angry at each other for reasons.  The people actually playing the game DGAF.

I'm not the biggest fan of 148, 149 is probably better, and I would prefer 141 most of all.

But maybe you should quit your "impartial voice of reason" routine, as you're showing pretty obvious bias to be suggesting that BIP148 activation would be equivalent to an altcoin launch. It's not necessarily "the actual Bitcoin" either, but if you were really as impartial as you paint yourself as, you would be saying it's really a subjective matter, and not the black and white unnuanced "altcoin" you're decreeing it as, it's more complicated than your simplistic presentation.

You can't affect what becomes the "Bitcoin chain" either now or in the future, it's for the users as a whole to decide. So, I know the air is a little thin up there in the clouds amongst the other gods, but take some advice: come back down to earth with the rest of the mortals. You're drunk on the lack of oxygen getting to your brain

There's obviously an element of "wait and see", as the situation could change.  Maybe it is too premature to dismiss it as an altcoin already.  But as things currently stand, I just don't see 148 getting the support it needs to survive, let alone have any kind of claim over the Bitcoin mantle.  Plus, if my bias is telling, it's because I do think it's a pretty dumb idea, heh.  I can't be impartial enough to pretend otherwise.  If things change soon, then sure, maybe 148 has a chance and then we can all go into meltdown over "Bitmaincoin".  But if 148 continues on its current course, it's en route to Altcoinville.

I mean, let's be honest, all of these companies listed on uasf.co and chek2fire's uneccessarily large image (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1966169.msg19573816#msg19573816) pledging "support" for 148 aren't exactly putting resources on the line to make it happen.  Much in the same way that I pledge "support" for my friends and loved ones to win the lottery if they're silly enough to waste their money on it.  It's pretty hollow and meaningless stuff.

Maybe there's some elaborate plan for a whole bunch of nodes to start signalling in unison in the closing stages, so it looks like some sort of snowball effect, but I can't help but think they would have started by now if that were the case.  Particularly considering the opportunity created by Bitmain's announcement, potentially giving proponents of UASF a kick up the backside to spur them into action.  But action doesn't seem to materialise.  Most of the "support" is verbal, or the written equivalent at least.  Hence cheerleading from the sidelines.  That alone isn't sufficient to create a viable fork.

In short, less talk, more nodes and some hashpower plz.

It isn't the whole premise. Censorship resistance is also a big component.

hmmm, projecting onto your own rhetoric though.

Yes, we all know you can write several paragraphs under the theme of "reasons why not BIP148", very good, 5 stars

But as I said, you're not in control, we are. So it's pretty hollow and meaningless stuff, I'm sure you can identify with that.

SegWit as a BIP141 soft fork wasn't, and isn't, bogus, as it wasn't thought to be contentious. It's currently still the safest way to go, as most nodes are already running the software to support its activation. Another issue with hard forks is backwards compatibility. SegWit maintains backward compatibility, which is a good, conservative way of doing things.

News like this causing the recent panic sell i guess, im still optimistic that bitcoin will remain strong and grow, this is just short term decline.

You could be playing with house money.

He forgot to mention the part where it's censorable with Bitmain's greater than 50% hash rate.

False equivalence.

Rejected by who? As far as I know just few developes, their fanatic supporters and mindless troll army. Bitcoin cannot make everyone happy, I heard long time: if you dont like high fees, just use altcoin. So now it is: if you dont like SegWit2x, just use altcoin. Bitcoin going to be ok without the few hundred or so people not willing to compromise, the other millions going to appreciate what SegWit2x deliver to Bitcoin.

This is gods gift.
Bitmain is the donald j trump of crypto  :D

so he's an orange idiot?

Don't say that.. someone might ddos a pool right before vote time.. then the cry's will be it was rigged!

thought saying that. what if something happened if something were to effect the vote? like some form of attack? so one side of the table is forced into either choice?

possible?

This is getting tricky. It used to be between the miners and the core developers, now there's also the hardware manufacturer who wants to rule the BTC world.

I wish simple users who have more power. But everybody shall remember we will have to power to choose the leading coin if there's a hard fork.

It seems chinese ppl are very polite. If Jihan was giving a speech in Europe or USA right now someone for sure will throw him tomatoes or eggs.
I can predict this will happen even in China if bitcoin price crash below 2000$ or even worst if price crash below 1000$ from his actions then i will not like to be in his place. Many will look for him :D

Do you trust money or open-source-code ?

Welcome BitmainCoin..  AsicBoosted mining..

LMAO !

dont worry and HODL !

Roger Ver says today that Satoshi has done an bitcoin ico

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCX0wL3XUAANOFV.jpg

post like that shows and the low quality of that persons. This guys are so stupid and arrogance that not even release that the majority in bitcoin community hate them and a red flag for everyone.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DA0gJZBXYAADU08.jpg

Very interesting read that about the ICO.. Live and learn :)

He's probably just on drugs. 8)

I am about to puke.

How can somebody be as retarded as Roger Ver, I will never ever understand.

They deleted my beautiful art in btc.com thread. I want it to live on here. :'(

Things must be bad for magic mike to put in an appearance on "discussion".

This "altcoin" sounds great, same great btc taste with no added Segwit. Sign me up!

https://twitter.com/jihanwu/status/731902686379933697?lang=en

actually what you will find is that although bitcoins first 'coin release' was in january 2009..
satoshi sent out emails in mid to late 2008 seeking anyone who might be interested in being involved in bitcoin.


genesis/bootstrap era coins.=initial coin offering

this is not an ico... :P

https://youtu.be/5_j8tmbB0T8
 ;D ;D ;D

this was funny but imo is more possible Bitmain and jihan to be the sinister empire
And this is funny... :P

https://twitter.com/InVodkaWeTrust/status/875332356479045632

Now that was funny!! :)

https://i.imgur.com/vZzHxR9.png

https://twitter.com/csuwildcat/status/875466464626565120

---

I wonder who is feeding Jihan the kool-aid. ::)

What if the late game boss isn't Jihan or Roger? What if they are only puppets? What if we are fighting against a central bank? And what if this bank is located in China?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-15/peoples-bank-china-manipulating-bitcoin-price

It's more likely the ICBC. trades on pink sheets, but has huge RMB 'capital'. no way to follow the money

no amount of tinkering like this can stop the bitcoin protocol.

And what does it change?

If Jihan actually sold his soul to his fiat masters (which is quite possible), they might be looking for a chance to irreparably damage Bitcoin (given the mining capacity this dude possesses), but then we have to answer the question why he is not using his power immediately to hurt Bitcoin right now or hasn't already used it. What does it give to him to postpone his attack against Bitcoin (if he was given this task, of course)?

You think it could be a large bluff? 

I'm no expert but to me it look like he's trying to scare the rest of bitcoiners to his way of thinking?

But theyre already imposing their will in the state where BTC is on right now. Why do you think its in this situation? The miners will go wherever it takes them to make more money.

it seems the segwit2x proposal is compatible with the current segwit proposal and it will be for activation before 1 August

https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-segwit2x/2017-June/000042.html

jihan cant avoid this now. Because if he do then will be fork off from the network and the competitors will take his place.
I think this power game in bitcoin will be a lesson to universities around the world about game theory.

He don't want to hurt bitcoin as long as bitcoin benefits China/Bitmain. He wants to control bitcoin which is going end up as hurting bitcoin.

To have control over bitcoin without hurting it, he is lying about everything he can. If common people can't run nodes and only corporations which can afford to buy expensive computers do, how's that decentralized?

He is lying constantly to cover his evilness and trying to get people by his side. Bitcoin users ain't morons luckily.

The best thing BU coiners can ever do is dumping all their Bitcoins coins for BTU's and stay there forever. I don't care if the price crashes to 100$.

lol typical misdirecting...

guess who puppet masters the exchanges
btc china's exchange
coinbase
itbit
korbit
kraken

answer:
DCG.co/portfolio
(bscartel)

blah blah blah...blockstream.... blah, blah, blah....blockstream...
you are very boring dude. You must find something different.

seems you want to keep your head in the sand and ignore it even when dcg admit they have ownership of the exchanges.

P.S you will never be a firefighter if you check for fire by sticking your head in the sand. all you will do is get your ass burned

go read any article on coindesk talking about exchanges and you will see it

here is the kicker
http://www.coindesk.com/bip-148-segwit2x-bitcoin-scaling-compromise-might-not-easy/

@franky1

Even if the blockstream conspiracy was true I still don't understand how you would prefer a Jihancoin?

funny part is i dont..

jihan coin is an altcoin..

even jihan admits he is crating an altcoin..

im for sticking with a real decentralise distributed no control bitcoin..

not BScoin
not jihancoin

anyway, jihancoin is the exact thing the BScartel have been crying, begging and demanding anything not bscartel to do ('f**k off')
but i do laugh where people now panic and worry and blame the non bscartel for going in a different direction even after the bscartel sheep begged for it for years..


even funnier part is that people are stupid enough to think is BScartels way or another brands way...
stupid fools forget that bitcoin is meant to work without brands owning controlling bitcoin.

stupid fools think because i hate brand BS must mean i want brand _

which is where they fail every year to pidgeon hole me into any group they can use to distract the real centralisation

in short i do not belong to any corp.. but some small minded people cannot conceive such a notion that bitcoin can survive without corporate puppeteers

So you support status quo? I thought you were a big blocker...

status quo?

damn you really have been hypnotised
seems you think there is only option BScoin or option jihan coin.

i think its time you put reddit on your blocked site list, for your own mental health sake

Anything which is somehow linked to Jihan is basically a big pile of lies

The problem is that we don't know what is going on behind the scenes for the most part but you can be pretty sure that what is said or declared (like Jihan going to fork Bitcoin) has very little to do with real intentions. Could this issue be somehow coped with? Absolutely. You should just follow the economic interests of the groups behind promoted proposals. We might not know the interests of some of these groups but miners are certainly interested in keeping the current status quo. So if they say something which is going to change it, you can be pretty certain that this is not what they actually think or intend to do


It's time to choose, time to choose

Nope, I blocked you instead.  ;D

i see it as just temporary drama of finger pointing.

best option i can see

Bscartel and their sheep jump over to litecoin and stop pulling the bitcoin puppet strings and take all their drama with them to litecoin.org

and then those that want proper bitcoin as it was intended where no one has control, where consensus is the mechanism of upgrades and growth can carry on as if it was pre 2014 again(pre corporate drama)

Isn't "BScoin" what we have now though? Blockstream handles most of the development of Bitcoin.
So that's really not a option IMO.

Care to explain what option you support then?

Arguable.  BIP141 is fine and perfectly legitimate if it activates as intended.  148, however, is an entirely different proposition and I'll throw in one of the OP's own quotes from much earlier in the scaling conflict to explain what I mean by that:

^(*) bolded emphasis mine

BIP148 is far more likely to result in a forced and contentious split than 141 is, with all of the associated drawbacks listed above.  The economy and miners have to be in agreement with 141.  Whereas with 148, it's not a true consensus if you have to effectively disregard the users securing the chain by mining it.  It might be called a soft fork, but it is almost guaranteed to result in a hardfork.  So a comparison with Bitmain's proposed hardfork is apt in my personal view.

---

//EDIT:


Perhaps it might be an idea to take the layout of the giant image (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1966169.msg19573816#msg19573816) and make a post or thread collating everyone's own preferences for each proposal.

	BIP141	BIP148	BIP149	SegWit2x	Extension Blocks	SegWit Adaptive/BIP106	BU/EC	Bitmaincoin
DooMAD	Acceptable	No	Weak	Acceptable	Deficient	Prefer	No	Fuck No
next person	etc	etc	etc	etc	etc	etc	etc	no

//EDIT:

If anyone wants me to add them, see this new thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1969978.0) and please post in the specified format (preferably still in the code tags).

many said in 2014 i supported xt, then it was classic, then it was something else now its BU..

short story, just because i despise the BS cartel does not mean there is only one other option..

things like dynamics are not a patent or product of BU.. many different implementations have and can use dynamics.
once you stop reading reddit and start doing proper research you will start to see the bigger picture

if the only options you can see is people belonging to brands... you have failed to understand the purpose of what bitcoin was invented for.
if the only options you can see is people belonging to brands... then you might aswell go play with paypal

anyway to rein the topic back....
what is the big deal if jihan does make an alt..
isnt that exactly what the bscartel sheep have been screaming for in the first place.. for anything not bscartel to "f**k off"

15 pages dammit I've been a miner since 2013 and dropped out after 1 year ... I was mining Alt coins for btc as btw was ridiculous for small.man to mine... that lasted 1  year

Is any body else thinking btc will crash so hard  that many whales will sell AND it will drop to a 300 btc a new low. Why do people think it's going.to.5k.or.10k.... I'm not.getting.it . And im embarrassed that we all.want decentralized but we can't agree on a important yet so simple fix that we risk destroying  btc just because we sound like siblings fighting for what dinner is on tonights dinner table

Ps. Why isn't EVERYBODY WORRIED I'm preparing to sell.all my btc all because  a bunch of kids can't  on something .MANY altcoins have done successfully.  Example imagine you had 60-70 btc you bought at 250 a pop and you watched it rise to almost 4000aud whilat reading all these things about this childish civil war. ITS OBVIOUS WE NEED BIGGER BLOCK SIZES FFS WHAT THE HELL IS A FEW TRANSACTIONS A SECOND... GEEEZ. ANYHOW you see a date of August 1st something big is going to happen.. you look at your built up assets in btc and decide to exit and wait till everyone has their head together and rejoin if btc is at a good price. Now I'm not a whale. Is every1 thinking about all the Wales that are thinking the same way. I mean 2 separate bitcoin wtf is that shit where the fuck is my btc going to sit on which chain.. is the price going up or down on this ahh fk it ima sell to be on the safe  side and comeback hopefully when they have sorted the code.

I gurantee you huge investors will pour out ans btc will plummet. This is worse than mt gox this is a war in bitxoin itself. The public will never trust bro for a lomggggg time by then a new coin will take the lights and good bye btc   :(

Can you post this in a new thread? I think it's a cool idea but it is better suited in a new thread.

there are issues with all the bips dooMAD highlighted and coloured..

EG the 106 bip..
there is no need for a consensus rule to go down..

think of blocksize like a hard drive or ram..
even if you have X size.. the actual blocks created do not need to be x size.
nor do you need to downgrade your ram or hard drive if you dont fill the space

for instance lets say you had a 5 terrabyte hard drive.., if in 2 years you only fill 500gb of it, doesnt mean you have to downgrade your hard drive.
you keep the upper limit as is and just not use the spare space.


Eg if a dynamic blocksize went up to 4mb.. pools can just make low demand 1mb blocks after while keeping the 4mb limit..
dropping the limit can cause technical issues like. if a consensus rule drops to 1.5mb .. then any block created over 1.5mb previously when the limit was 4mb could end up getting orphaned and literally ripping out months of historic blocks.

another way to think about it.
imagine it was a 1mb (todays situation but with dynamics). and suddenly pools done empty blocks to make the 1mb rule drop to 0.25mb... suddenly all blocks after 2011 get orphaned due to those blocks being over 0.25mb

much simpler to leave the rule at whatever dynamic size it went UPTO and just let pools make blocks at whatever size below that limit
atleast from a technical point blocks wont get orphaned

Thats very clear... so basically miners can do that to any BLOCK even the 1mb BLOCK.so now I'm confused ..so why all this debate.. what's this few.transactions  a second debate. R u saying leave how it is and have miners choose? Doubt it cause They must not be doing something right .

Or are u saying change code in yet another way, a way thats Scalable by miner choice?  that's the most common sense idea if that's what ur saying.

That is actually a decent idea, albeit it needs to follow the Wiki table + possible additions as added by DooMAD. If he does not want to pick that up, I could create a thread (albeit it would need to be limited to e.g. people without negative trust; people above certain rank; in order to reduce shilling/manipulation).

---

Even EC is better than JihanCoin.

re: bolded; in other words, it's a terrible idea



are you ok? someone bring back the real lauda, both are equally off-the-charts heinous

I don't see anything particularly wrong with it. If you allow anyone to sign up on this list on Bitcointalk, then it is a terrible idea.

For you, JihanCoin is the same as having EC ???

What makes you think that allowing positive trust and/or high ranked members is going to produce useful information?


What makes you think that JihanCoin and EC are the same thing? It's not anything I posted, your comment is strange

Thread is up (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1969978.0).  I doubt I'll be bothering to check everyone's reputation feedback, but I can probably divvy up the list by membership rank if that's important.  Also, in the interest of balance, should we include things like 8MB if miners are still signalling that?



That was my initial feeling, but I suppose it's not beyond the realm of possibility that people might make a new account just to skew the results.

Guys what would you do if you have  a nice chunk of funds in BTC say 50% for example would you cash it in before the upcoming UNKNOWN august 1 ... I mean these days 15btc is like $50,000 Aud... pretty crazy!!

 

Great idea...make sure this is also excluding those with negative trust give because you (or some Blockstream employees) disagree with them.  This will ensure a wide diversity of opinions and true representation of support.  Also make sure to use neutral labels that aren't biased.  For example, instead of "bigger blocks", make sure to say Jihancoin.  Anything else would be unfair.   /s

Think so? That would be a possibility.

Can you guess what my vote's going to be?

At this point I think it's best to look at what the code does, rather than who wrote it. Code that makes bitcoin work better should be adopted, compiled, and run, and code that doesn't should be ignored. Simple.

I think Bitmain has overstepped their domain a bit with UAHF. All they had to do was ignore the 148coin fools, and make sure they keep mining smoothly on August 1. I think Jihan got scared it could work so he announced his own counter-bluff.

Nobody is changing the POW for bitcoin - that's by definition an altcoin. Even Maxwell said that BIP148 is a "stupid way to create an altcoin". I suppose that UAHF is roughly equivalent.

I disagree.  Who runs the code is completely relevant if that group has a lot of power.

The difference is that Core's power is to propose code, while BITMAIN's power is to signal for it.

If BITMAIN, a private mining company, decides to go off and propose their own code, it means that they have control over their new chain unless enough other miners signal for their code to negate their power.  For now, this is basically manipulation of the new chain since they have the power for 51% attacks, potentially for a long time considering that the market won't support their chain for a while, and the power to create changes in the code without consulting miners which are supposed to be independent from developers.

i dont think so.  I think UAHF is a great way to get bigger blocks.  Good chance to hold the longest chain, and even if not, the chain will attract more economic activity in the long run than segshit and blockstream.

i only know that bitcoin developers has maintenance all of this years bitcoin without a single problem and this is enough to trust my money. For that and only for that reason i prefer to trust the best coders.
The code speaks in bitcoin and until today speak in the favour of bitcoin developers.

What's up with Bitmain being listed as finding BIP141 acceptable until July, when they're obviously not pointing their hash power at it?: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Segwit_support

Edit: Oh, look, there's a thread for that: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/6hn2zj/why_did_bitmain_go_from_no_to_acc_until_july_for/

i have a theory for this guys. I think they have found a new kind psychedelic mushroom to the Tibet mountains where they operate their mining facilities. Because their actions is not logical at all.. :P

It really is hilarious how most people on the Internet just get so caught up with their preconceptions that they just make loud assumptions without backing them up with anything meaningful whatsoever.  You've assumed that more people support one side than the other just because of what you think, rather than from any meaningful evidence, because you've separated "real people" from "those other people".

If it doesn't hold the longest chain, it's a BITMAIN-dominated chain and it's an outrage to decentralisation - if it does hold the longest chain eventually that would be interesting to me, but it doesn't seem likely at this point.

IMO this is a similar mentality that leads people to supporting BIP 148 even though the main justification that they gave for avoiding a hard fork was that it would cause a chain split.

Bitmain should do it right this instant. Keep ASICboost, add another shitcoin to the list, cut the quasi-extortion.

Acceptable as part of SegWit2x ? The SegWit2x is not ready yet (expected fully tested in mid July), so they not pointing their hash power at it now.

BIP148 fixes the ASICBOOST exploit. Sure they don't like that at Bitmain, as they have a monopoly on the Asicboost patent.

The situation is foggier than ever and imho this translates to $100 Litecoins.  8)

No response.. wow. Fuk it I'll sell..

This place amazes me the bitcoin community amazes me.. just in this f**ing thread people can't even agree. You people are the reason alot of the public thinks de-centralised won't work.BITCOIN WILL never reach consensus if people can't even agree in a  TINY thread regarding a small code enhancement.

OK, I answer:
- You should observe the sentiment on both sides.
- If the final Segwit2x version is fully compatible with BIP148 and gets support from 80% as announced then I think for now there will be no chain split and the outcome is bullish. Buy/hold.
- The worst outcome is an UASF BIP148 with more than 15 but less than 35% hashrate support. That will result in a chain split almost surely, with BIP148 being the minority chain in terms of hashrate but probably majority of users. Turbulences ahead. Sell/Trade the swings.
- BIP148 with 35%-50%+ has a chance to get a majority of miners on board. That could result in a chain split but here I think there will be a chance the BIP148 chain wins at the end because of user/economy support. However, I expect turbulences and a price drop. Sell.
- BIP148 with 50%+ even without Segwit2x support would be sure to win, but probably won't happen. Would be bullish however.
- BIP148 with <15% has no chance. So the legacy chain or an incompatible Segwit2x chain will win. If that means that the stalemate continues, I consider it bearish. The price evolution of a winning BIP148-incompatible Segwit2x chain is difficult to predict.

Just throwing this out there but lightning network?  Anyone think this could be something to come in future?

https://youtu.be/MpfvhiqFw7A

lighting network is the only way bitcoin or any other blockchain system to become mainstream as an everyday payment system or everyday smart contract system. Is technical impossible right now a blockchain system to have Visa, Paypal onchain volume. To do this it needs 500mb-5gb blocks. this is ridiculous for everyone to say that bitcoin can upgrade to this level onchain.
Miners must accept that the future is in sidechain payment or lighting network and for the first time to start to develop their own tech solutions around it to begin to get profit from them. Because until now every day they payed from the others work without to return anything back to the ecosystem.

From my own reading's ect I think lightning network has some vast benefits to gain but it also has its down sides as mentioned about, 

Miners need to realise they don't own bitcoin this is the problem its now a power struggle between dev's and miners which to be honest has the potential to damage the system we all love so much.

While the lightning network (in future ) could have fantastic implications for bitcoin I agree right now its just not technically possible.

We need to get past this BIP / SegShit dare I say turning point for the network then look to some serious scalability for bitcoin.

I also agree back to GPU mining! ASIC should never of taken over the world of mining in my eyes.  It put bitcoin in the hands of the few while squeezing out the many.

imo a pow change will not gain anything. As vertcoin prove a new pow is only a temporarily solution. I prefer the current game theory of asic in bitcoin ecosystem. Because Bimain products the most asic right now not meaning that is an ally with every miner in the system or that can rule them all. And if the price range keep high then for sure they will appear many more competitors.
 

Agreed.

We must give miners a year or two so they can adjust to the new PoW system. Since ASICs get outdated in every 2-3 years or so, that wouldn't be much of a problem for them.

Antminer S5's don't worth shit now, their S9's will share the same fate sooner or later anyway.

Mining should be more decentralized and available for every bitcoin holder there is.

I wouldn't have supported a PoW change if there were any other competing ASIC manufacturers or  there wasn't any greedy fucks that didn't patent their software in an open source project but that's not the case.

But money is money and ASICs were born just because of those greed. So there will never ever be decentralized mining with ASICs because even if NVidia or AMD was building ASICs, they would have created a code like ASICB**ST themselves. The idea is about making more money, we can't blame them for hijacking the system but we could have taken measures to prevent it.

Sad thing is, the core devs didn't.

They let Jihan eat every other ASIC manufacturer by one by and now he is fat as fuck and about to eat the whole blockchain.

https://i.imgur.com/7hEglU4.jpg

and with this bitcoin system  will have and another manufacturer that will control a key part of bitcoin mining and gpu producers. And is much much difficult for any new bitcoin startup to competes tech companies like Nvidia, AMD, Intel.
This is the main reason why a change pow plan is danger and will bring more centralisation to bitcoin mining.

Sigh. Learn how the forum works.

I don't think we should as those are not even being considered anymore, at least not at this time.

Shills should not be allowed to vote anyways. Stop whining.

Maybe the statement as found in the OP is just a bluff. This means that BIP 148 is working.

Thanks but would you risk 50% of your funds.. don't you think leaving it untok Aug 1 is playing with fire. I mean yes btc was risky but I can deal with this type of risk. Now the upcoming risk is ridiculously risky to play with tens or 100s of thousands  of dollars. Yes discussion is what makes consensus but geeez this sounds like it will turn into 10year discussion with no end in site is a now a stubborn debate with neither side bending.  How is btc meant to function like this. Why on earth wasn't this taken care of when btc was at 2 dollars or even 200 ..now we are playing with crazy amounts of dollars..  investors is what drives btc if we scare them they will pull out and news will spread and btc will crash like we have never seen. And now the world will see the civil war going on and never trust it. That's sad and makes me irritated that grown adults with their head screwed in properly cannot agree with something. The risks of not agreeing I think are worse than doing. If you have calculations that tell you a tsunami is on the way. I doubt you will sit there and wait for it to come.and break  down your house.. you will strengthen the house before this happens.  Same with btc... it's obvious transactions are slowing down as more and more people get in... is it better to wait until it's ridiculously unusable or fix. I think many ppl want to fix, I may not be that technical to comprehend why people are finding.it that hard to come.to am agreement. My apologies if I sound ignorant... I just love this coin and technology I don't want to see it burn to the ground because of something which could have been fixed quite easily.

Maybe you should? It wasn't long ago that you told me you had no idea why a certain account was in the default trust group. And you can't seriously believe that the ranking system hasn't suffered the forum software equivalent of a sybil attack, not to mention the high rankers that just sell their accounts.

So, tell us again Lauda about how high quality and meaningful the information is going to get collected using this great poll thread idea

Well, the asicboost patent has been filed in 2014 with probable priority claim in 2013. 
http://www.google.com/patents/WO2015077378A1?cl=en

It is not bitmain that owns it.  It is a good improvement (at least in principle) of the hash calculation in the PoW scheme of bitcoin, in the same way that the standard algorithm already avoids recalculations, in the same way that introducing GPU outperformed CPU, and then ASICS outperformed GPU.  It improves the ratio of proof of work over economic cost like all those other techniques did.

I don't see how bitmain, somewhat unfairly "has a monopoly on asicboost tech".   What is fundamentally problematic, is that a patent exists, but that's in the fundamental problematic nature of proof of work itself.  Proof of work being essentially a relationship between cryptographic results (small hash values), and a presumed necessary waste of economic resources, if there are legal ways to protect better relationships between proof of work (cryptographic result) and actual economic waste, there is of course a huge advantage for those legally allowed to do so.  But that is the fundamental nature of intellectual property: the one detaining the rights, has "unfair advantage" over those legally forbidden to use it.
If a system wants to base its decentralized aspect on such a thing, like bitcoin, it is simply badly designed, that's all.
 

Good information in this thread, what that company is trying to do is to create a new altcoin to sell a lot of mining equipment for another six or seven years, it's not hard to imagine, but people will not accept that because is an completely centralized thing.

What I have noticed while learning to trade is that you will have supporters of all kinds backing many crappy projects so Bitmain will also have it's group of shills who will support whatever sha coin it produces. Many decent projects get left behind and trashy ones come to the forefront and are pumped by supporters. I am worried about the uncertain future of Bitcoin at this point and am hoping that the altcoin markets do not implode because of the Bitcoin problems.

In fact, I never claimed to be an "expert" in mining

On the other hand, you don't have to be a cow to distinguish between soar milk and fresh milk. My point is rather simple, though, and it is pretty independent or agnostic (so to speak) of any technical details about "how mining fundamentally works" (if that was your point). I know how money works and how it should work (let's assume that Bitcoin aims to be that, after all). And mining as it is today gets right in the way of the "money" thing. Basically, money should make life easier, not heavier, and mining (Bitcoin mining), fundamentally, should work in that direction, not in the opposite, as is the case right now (with insanely high fees and incredibly slow confirmations). I guess this is as fundamental as it could ever get

Hmm well if UAHF happened and magically we got bigger blocks without much pain, I would be fine with it. Given the tension building for August 1, I don't think UAHF is the best way forward. It's too rushed, and an unnecessary challenge to UASF. Then again, if they can get the code together before August 1, maybe UASF is a perfect excuse to ram through a bigger blocks hard fork.

Obviously lukejr and his minions no longer have any qualms about hard forking and/or possibly wrecking bitcoin, so maybe that's how things will happen going forward...

I haven't had time to thoroughly analyze the proposals, but my opinion is that everybody is bluffing, and no protocol changes will get forced onto the network.

With a large precentage of the hashrate attributed to the a certain fork proposal, I don't think that it'd be safe to assume that this fork would create an altcoin. It'd be a huge risk for other miners to actually NOT follow both because of losing money due to the retarget slowing down but most importantly because of the economic majority having shown its preference. The coin supported by the economic minority would most likely end up being deprecated at best.

I read through, or at least skimmed by the end, the whole thread, and for the most part don't feel the need to engage in any of this. But I do want to comment on this from page 10 which no one else seemed to pick up on:


So far as I see, this tweet says basically exactly that: https://twitter.com/adam3us/status/872422714237177856

Before I'm attacked for being an altcoiner and not posting on this forum much, let me just point out that I really don't care what Back's opinion is and am making no argument on either side in this thread; I'm just linking to his tweet on that topic since the factual question of what he said or didn't was raised.

And with that, I'll see myself out.

You are apparently confusing entirely different notions

Miners don't make up the economic majority, they make up the the most of hashrate, but these are entirely different things. In fact, most of hash power belongs to a dozen miners, and the number of real persons controlling this power may be even less than that. Regarding whether a hard fork which has the largest percentage of hashrate will be an altcoin (or not), this ultimately depends on whether it is accepted or rejected by the major exchanges. If it is not, all the hash power in the world will be irrelevant since exchanges represent nowadays what is called economic majority (in case of Bitcoin)

Bitcoin, Forks, SegWit, DASH, Litecoin & What's Exciting in Crypto - Adam Meister:

https://youtu.be/yBBgQ3IwYqo

The Dash Digital Cash does not need a SegWit, a true cryptocurrency does not need a SegWit!

Hahaaha, thats a good one. dash is a mesh and bitcoin is the best crypto and surely does not need SW at all. But some hijackers did a lot of technobubble and overnegineerings and might pay the price for now.

Jihan Wu can never have a respected opinion again when BIP 148 and he is still mining Bitcoin. If goes on to make Chinacoin or Jihancoin than all would be good in the world.

There are useful technical/cryptographic reasons for segregating the witness information. Please explain to us how the concept is irrelevant to DASH. I suspect many people here couldn't even say how DASH currently handles the transaction signatures, or how it deals with malleability issues.

He likely doesn't give a fuck

That is, he doesn't care whether his opinion is respected or neglected (or even rejected) since when you have your fingers on the kill switch you can safely forget about such trivialities and inconsequential matters as respect or regard. In other words, those not respecting him or neglecting his opinion (and still more so those rejecting it) will likely have to pay for their attitude with their own money. Note that I'm in no way defending or justifying him and his actions (or anything to that tune)

http://s16.radikal.ru/i191/1707/d8/adbffd9c115e.jpg

I'm just trying to put things in the right perspective

ROFL... have to agree with you here. In general, the role played by Jihan Wu and his Bitmain cartel has been quite negative to the future expansion of Bitcoin. If Bitmain is removed from the scene, then it is going to help Bitcoin users in a big way. And just a simple question about this new altcoin. Are they going to mine it from the scratch, or are they going to organize airdrops for the existing Bitcoin hoders?

It makes no sense to create an entirely new altcoin which would be just a Bitcoin copycat

Not that it makes a lot of sense to clone the blockchain either unless Jihan is going to beat the competing blockchain(s) into oblivion, but creating a Bitcoin copycat from scratch is just stupid and meaningless. Who would be using this completely centralized coin? That would be an obvious act of economic suicide and total waste of resource. In this way, if Jihan really puts his money where his mouth is (which is unlikely), he will be trying to squash all the competition from "alternative" blockchains. And that may mean the end of Bitcoin (and that might in fact as well be what he is actually up to)

What my suggestion is,if they have the plan to create an alt coin,they should do that now because it is the right time when all the alt coins are coming in and if they want to sell more machines let them come up with a good coin ,but the problem is you need to have a good set of developers and innovators to bring a new coin,let them show they have those talents and then i will believe them.

His goal obviously would be to get other miners on board, so that the "Bitmaincoin" would not longer be centralized. In this case, Jihan/Bitmain of course at the start would have a high degree of control over the implementation as he would be the first mover and maintain the first code repository, but in theory it would continue to be an decentralized open source project and everyone could create an alternative implementation.

If it was not planned this way, you're right that it wouldn't make sense for Bitmain to "fork away".

But without users on board that would be an exercise in stupidity and futility

So the only viable way for them to "fork off" is to take the Bitcoin blockchain (otherwise no one would seriously consider their Bitmaincoin as Bitcoin at all) with all the transactions and Bitcoin balances. But that would instantly mean a war, a devastating war of blockchains that would be rather interesting to watch (provided you don't have any bitcoins) but which would most certainly lead to Bitcoin total annihilation within a couple of weeks

So with that in mind being there possibly could be issues down the line how many of you are taking steps to secure any investments held? 
I think if everyone thinks this is a possibility then not only would the price crumble but people could possibly lose everything.

I think there is a large portions of users who are moving to alt coins in the run up to august. mostly by the fear of something horrible happening to bitcoin.

so whta will happen if bitcoin split into 2? i hope they can solve it by producing BIP148 i was also worried about the effect of this a lot of people will go crazy for this if it happen even me a small investor also worried i dont know what to do

Obviously he'll hard fork from the existing blockchain. But I don't think it will lead to "total annihilation". The worst outcome would be a chain split with three chains: BIP148, Legacy and Bitmaincoin. In this scenario, the principal fight will be between BIP148 and Bitmaincoin, BIP148 having the advantage to count (in this scenario!) with Core support, and Bitmaincoin with the majority hashrate support. The legacy chain will most probably die because miners will ignore it and then even non-upgraded nodes would jump on the BIP148 chain.

So the most likely outcome is a 60/40 to 70/30 user/market cap split with the BIP148 chain being slightly in advantage. But also Bitmaincoin will probably count with Bitpay as a strong supporter.

It's possible that Bitcoin, in the escalation phase, loses the market cap leadership to Ethereum but I'm not even sure about that. Most probably the UASF chain will stay as the leading one and will recover price-wise (I expect then prices around $1000-1300 for the UASF chain and $500-800 for the Bitmain chain). It will be marketed with the (in my opinion, flawed) "digital gold" concept. The Bitmain chain, instead, will promote itself for on-chain scaling and low fees, so some users will change to it, above all in fields like remittances.

Considering all that, I think both chains together will stay weaker than a unified Segwit2x chain could be, so I am not favouring this outcome. But I also don't think it will be deadly for Bitcoin.

Mr. mmortal03, the Dash Labs will create open-source hardware for long-term scaling. A main goal of Dash Labs will be to both advance and decentralize the production of cryptocurrency-specific hardware, benefiting not only Dash but the entire cryptocurrency space.
More details here: https://www.dashforcenews.com/dash-labs-third-dash-organization-headed-founder-evan-duffield-expands/

It's always good to remember, the DASH Digital Cash is the 1st true DAO in cryptocurrency, a decentralized self-funding and self-governing protocol allowing the perfect feedback loop to grow.

and more, the Dash Evolution has been designed as a scalable and user-friendly currency platform for mass adoption. Evan Duffield and Andy Freer of Dash Labs and Dash Core CTO, respectively have developed a roadmap for reaching this goal, and have provided a summary of this roadmap on Dash.org.
More details here: https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/dash-reveals-roadmap-mass-adoption/

Advice: the best wallet is the Dash Core v0.12.1.5

Warning: trust only in the dash.org website. DASH [DOT] ORG

 ;) cheers

So far this hasn't been the case in any significant degree

It is clear by now that most people are simply parking their wealth in fiat (there is enough circumstantial evidence to think so). Indeed, some are going for altcoins. Personally, I follow Litecoin, and it is as clear as day that it is the case in respect to this coin. But if all or just many people which move from Bitcoin went into Litecoin, its price would be a lot higher than it is now (likely over 100 dollars per coin already). It is possible that we haven't yet seen a mass exodus from Bitcoin, and when we will finally see it, Litecoin will hike as much (and higher). But so far we are not there yet. Basically, you can still be "an early bird" if you don't gape around too much

hey, deisik! why do you still invest in litecoin and bitcoin? The Litecoin is just a clone of bitcoin with some variables changed. The DASH is the 1st true DAO in cryptocurrency, a decentralized self-funding and self-governing protocol allowing the perfect feedback loop to grow

I've heard not very good things about Dash

It has been much hyped recently so it kinda looks that we should wait for a year or two to see how things are actually going to play out with this coin. In fact, I tried to use it as a value transfer vehicle in the past, and I can't say that the fees were cheap. Indeed, they might be not that high as Bitcoin fees, but they were still incomparable to what I have to pay when I transact with Litecoin. Further, I tried to sell a few Dash coins at Bitfinex, and there was literally no liquidity in the market. I placed my order first in the queue and had to wait long minutes for it to get filled. No one had been actually buying or selling anything, all movements were fake without actual trades. For me, as a trader, this is a telling sign that the coin doesn't have a lot of backup, so to speak, and thus should be avoided (at least, for the time being)

Seriously, while Dash is offering some privacy centric features that some people here may like, it has one thing in common with most of the other coins ~ it's a shitcoin that got heavily premined.

People have been hyping Dash up significantly till now, but the actual usage that it is experiencing is disappointingly low. It's just one of the plenty of other speculative assets available, and that's basically it.

Somehow this escaped me when it was posted. I'm willing to bet they wouldn't do this, if the majority wanted BIP148 they would just have to follow suit, otherwise they'd go down the drain financially and they cannot afford that risk. People usually forget this around here, but it is a fact. It's in their best interest to play ball with what the majority wants. They say so in the exact same post, but in other words.


That's why it is extremely strange when recently people accused them and other big blockers of spamming the network "to prove a point". That's just counter-productive towards the goal they're trying to achieve...

You didn't answer my question, all you did was post a generic DASH advertisement.

Mr. BitHodler, there was no pre-mine in Dash!

Dash Instamine Issue Clarification:
Due to a number of questions about the so called Dash "instamine issue", the purpose of this document is to provide an official statement from the Dash team about this matter. Our intention is to provide Dash investors and users with information to help them understand the currency history and technical issues at the beginning of the project and draw their own conclusions on the impact.

Facts about the instamine:
1- There was no pre-mine in Dash
2- ~1.86MM first 24h, ~2.02MM first 48h according to https://chainz.cryptoid.info/dash/#@inflation
3- That represents approximately 10-15% of the total money supply that will ever be issued
4- This coin issue rate exceeded the published emission schedule by a wide margin

more details here: https://dashpay.atlassian.net/wiki/display/OC/Dash+Instamine+Issue+Clarification

cheers ;)

mr. unamis76, the Dash Digital Cash does not need a SegWit, a true cryptocurrency does not need a SegWit!

mr. mmortal03, the argument against segwit would be that dash tries to have its own scaling approach and segwit could take transactions away from that approach; the dash's instant transaction method is already a solution for transaction malleability and therefore segwit would not be necessary here.

please watch this video: Bitcoin, Forks, SegWit, DASH, Litecoin & What's Exciting in Crypto - Adam Meister

YOUTUBE https://youtu.be/yBBgQ3IwYqo

cheers ;)

tuapoma, you're making some pretty convoluted arguments against what is the simple concept of segregating the witness, and using these convoluted arguments as some sort of weird advertisement for DASH, and to spite Bitcoin. I will now stop feeding the troll.

It is always quite hard to distinguish the "real" trade volume from the fake volumes. And trade volumes are inflated for a lot of altcoins, and not just for Dash. When Bitcoin regains its market dominance, most of these alts are going to crash badly.

Well, this is not what I meant

I meant that the Dash orderbook looked as if there were massive trading going on, the price had been constantly changing up and down, but no actual trades were made (just orders placed and removed). That said, in general I agree with you. In fact, Bitcoin hasn't yet lost its market dominance at all, especially if we discard such bullshit metric as the so-called "market cap". But if things go from bad to worse for it, it will certainly lose this dominance, and Litecoin is going to take Bitcoin's place. Litecoin is likely already the number one currency in terms of traded coins (% of coins traded versus coins mined), that's why its price is not very high presently (we have discussed this issue before somewhere around here)

Are you brain dead? DASH is a instamined MLM scam. Advertise that turd somewhere else.

The troll deserves either a ban or a negative rating or both. People intentionally spreading false information should not be tolerated at any cost. The same applies for those that try to spread the idea that the privately mined Jihancoin would be the actual Bitcoin and not an altcoin. ::)

mr. mmortal03, stop feeding litecoins, bitcoins and shitcoins and study more about Dash Digital Cash!!!

a good suggestion,
Ethereum Ran Into Two Problems Dash Long Since Fixed: https://www.dashforcenews.com/ethereum-ran-two-problems-dash-long-since-fixed/

 8)

mr. Vishnu.Reang, study more about Dash! the DASH Digital Cash is the 1st true DAO in cryptocurrency, a decentralized self-funding & self-governing protocol allowing the perfect feedback loop to grow.

mr. deisik, a good suggestion, please watch this video:

Dash Plan To Become The First Mainstream Cryptocurrency
YOUTUBE https://youtu.be/hcpUcxtIVR8

8)

Lauda, you are a deplorable slanderer!!! miserable mischievous naughty cat!!! You're spreading false information! On the other hand, my theses are very well founded. You need to go study more about cryptocurrencies.

learn once and for all, there was no pre-mine in Dash!

Dash Instamine Issue Clarification:
Due to a number of questions about the so called Dash "instamine issue", the purpose of this document is to provide an official statement from the Dash team about this matter. Our intention is to provide Dash investors and users with information to help them understand the currency history and technical issues at the beginning of the project and draw their own conclusions on the impact.

Facts about the instamine:
1- There was no pre-mine in Dash
2- ~1.86MM first 24h, ~2.02MM first 48h according to https://chainz.cryptoid.info/dash/#@inflation
3- That represents approximately 10-15% of the total money supply that will ever be issued
4- This coin issue rate exceeded the published emission schedule by a wide margin

more details here: https://dashpay.atlassian.net/wiki/display/OC/Dash+Instamine+Issue+Clarification

Advice: the best wallet is the Dash Core v0.12.1.5
Warning: trust only in the dash.org website. DASH [DOT] ORG
8)

Of course, your emotionally-laden terminology is used merely as subterfuge. Nevertheless, if such captures the economic majority, then such is indeed entitled to the name of Bitcoin.

Can you please explain to me what is the MLM part of it in your opinion?

I have already heard the instamine accusations but I haven't heard the MLM part, is there some kind of referral system there or like what?

Or are you just too attached to Bitcoin?

So how did your expert trading experience pan out for you, deisik?  If you weren't just talking a big game and actually sold your coins, you're now potentially looking at the prospect of having to buy back at a new all-time-high.  I sincerely hope no one else followed your advice and lost out as a result.  Panic selling has it's pitfalls and this is definitely one of them.  There was no catastrophic plunge to sub $1000 prices like some were proclaiming would happen.  Hodling isn't always a safe bet either, but it paid off this time.

This should serve as a reminder to all forum denizens to weigh up the pros and cons, make decisions for yourselves and not just believe the hype and FUD without question.

Is the next thing to watchout for the SegWit2x activation? Some have been speculating that it could create yet another fork but it's unclear of core developers would continue supporting a non2x chain if the vast majority of miners continues supporting 2x.

This is our next boogeyman.

I'm wondering who is going to stand up and be counted. Exchanges are tarts who'll list anything. It's safe to say Bitpay has dropped any pretence of being all that interested in preserving Bitcoin's principles. Coinbase have wavered over the years. Everyone else will follow the majority.

If 2X actually happens in the way it's currently intended then who's left to support a non 2X chain that doesn't feel it's safe? I can't really think of anyone.  

2x is not intended to happen. Segwit was and it is done.


The people who wanted segwit but not 2x.

In fact, I turned out to be perfectly correct in my assumptions

I guess you should read my post again in its entirety to get better understanding of what I had actually written. In the case you missed it, I can repeat that specific part for you. As you can see, I wrote that "the price would crash after the split (even if temporarily) or even before it". Should I remind you that the price crashed below 1,800 dollars per coin a few days before the split? I don't think you can take just one part of my post and then claim me wrong. That would amount to cherry picking, as you should know. And no, I'm not looking to buy bitcoins (just in case, at any price, high or low), I'm buying litecoins whenever an opportunity comes up. I'm still rather pessimistic about Bitcoin long-term prospects

I try to maintain neutrality and understand both sides, with the sole purpose of the long term success of bitcoin. But what I've seen lately is one side trying to compromise, while the other is doing everything they can to undermine that effort. Bitcoin is under the thumb of a tramp user, ignoring the entire development community and using secret mining techniques to destroy opponents. bitcoin and go read a book or something. It's entirely possible one or more will be so painful until a difficult change that you will not be able to move them fast enough. >:(

hey guys!! the average Bitcoin transaction fee ($10.17) is now more than twice the cost of Bitcoin itself ($5) in 2011. Nostalgia and inertia-fueled masochism: Using Bitcoin instead of DASH Digital Cash in 2017. Come on dudes, sub-penny transactions are fun!

great videos:
Dash sponsored Circus City in Bristol UK with Ed Rapley
https://youtu.be/_waMm5qmq9g

Dash Force News 3 Amigos Podcast E24 with Alex Werner from Dash Core: https://youtu.be/KP32FtnD1Q0

cheers

What a crock of runny shit. My last one with multiple inputs was still less than a dollar though I certainly was in no hurry. The highest I've ever paid was $20 and that had tens of inputs. Take your alt shilling out to pasture, ta.