Bitcoin Forum

My name is Dan Dascalescu and I'm the co-founder (http://blueseed.co/about-us/#dan) and COO/CTO of Blueseed (http://blueseed.co), an upcoming community for startup entrepreneurs in international waters, 12 nautical miles (30 minutes by ferry) from the Silicon Valley coast. I'll be speaking about Blueseed and Bitcoin (http://www.bitcoin2013.com/bitcoin-2013-panelists.html) at the Bitcoin2013 conference on May 19 (https://twitter.com/BlueseedProject/status/331936273377931265).

I've been a Bitcoin user since 2011, and I'm posting here to get the community's feedback on what topics you'd like discussed. The talk will be recorded and made available online. I'll only have a 30 minutes slot to discuss the interplay between the world's largest tech-oriented colony on a semi-independent jurisdiction, and the world's most advanced cryptocurrency... fun times.

Very briefly, Blueseed was founded in August 2011 by former directors at The Seasteading Institute, is seed-funded, has a solid business model (rent + startups equity), we've done all the research possible at this stage - ocean conditions, ship stability, ship chartering, Internet connectivity, ferry and helicopter transportation, resupply chain, waste handling, visas and immigration matters, you name it. Preliminary discussions with U.S. authorities indicate not only non-interference, but actual support. 400 startups (http://blueseed.co/come-aboard/results) have already expressed interest, and we've received excellent press coverage (http://blueseed.co/press). As long as we raise Series A funding on time, Blueseed should be in the water during the summer of next year.

As such, most likely any non-Bitcoin question about Blueseed has been already asked and answered. I'll also be replying to individual mentions of Blueseed that I see were made in quite a few other threads on the forum, notably Bitcoin Island (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=82060.0) and Bitcoin Island/City and More (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=183045.0). In the interest of time, please read up a bit on Blueseed, as remarks likening us to Bioshock/Waterworld/Lord of The Flies, suggesting that pirates will invade the ship, or that it "steals American jobs", are unoriginal and will be summarily ignored. :)

Please make sure to read the Blueseed Quick Facts (http://blueseed.co/quick-facts/) and the Blueseed FAQ (http://blueseed.co/faq/) to familiarize yourself with the venture.
For plenty of videos (we've been all over the news), head over to blueseed.tv (http://blueseed.tv).

What would you like to be discussed? I'll split the 30 minutes of the talk into a meaty presentation of Blueseed (http://youtu.be/7MzUCG7AtBo) and a Q&A/discussion session.

So far we have the following:

• Will Blueseed accept Bitcoin for payments, e.g. for rent?
• What currency will be dominant onboard? Will items in the shops there, such as food, be denominated in USD but BTC is just as welcome/preferred?
• Will companies use BTC to trade between each other for B2B services?
• What Bitcoin-centered business models would have an advantage in the Blueseed environment?
• How can BTC owners invest in Blueseed?
• How can BTC owners reserve a spot?

I'm looking forward to your proposed topics and questions.

Can we come visit? ;D

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=149892.0

Cool stuff...

Amazing!

I will surely be following this up and be keeping up to date!
This is looking really promising, I think a lot of people would be more than willing to help support this beautiful project.
This needs to be advertised more, I'm going to include this in my sig, this is great news and could make bitcoin progress even further!

Going to be there in a few weeks! Can't wait!

I recommend a careful study and discussion of how BlueSeed will comply with

Section 922.132 a.2

http://montereybay.noaa.gov/intro/mp/regs.html#prohibitions



Mooring one of these:

http://blueseed.co/wp-content/uploads/Blueseed-Terraces-1-+-features.jpg

in the Monterey Bay National Marine Sanctuary will be an interesting exercise in dealing with 14+ different oversight agencies.

This is a great first step toward full seasteading.

Related to bitcoin, have you been getting any funding in bitcoin?

You might also want to make sure your graphics reflect the actual expected conditions of your planned location.

Here is a link to the point forecast for your advertised location
http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?w0=t&w1=td&w2=hi&w3=sfcwind&w3u=0&w4=sky&w5=pop&w6=rh&w9=swlp&w10=swlm&w11=swlp2&w12=swlm2&w13=wwh&w14=wvh&w15=fzgspy&AheadHour=0&Submit=Submit&FcstType=graphical&textField1=37.46500&textField2=-122.76000&site=all&unit=0&dd=0&bw=0&marine=1 (http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?w0=t&w1=td&w2=hi&w3=sfcwind&w3u=0&w4=sky&w5=pop&w6=rh&w9=swlp&w10=swlm&w11=swlp2&w12=swlm2&w13=wwh&w14=wvh&w15=fzgspy&AheadHour=0&Submit=Submit&FcstType=graphical&textField1=37.46500&textField2=-122.76000&site=all&unit=0&dd=0&bw=0&marine=1)

Here is a link to the nearest meto buoy.

http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/station_page.php?station=46012 (http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/station_page.php?station=46012)

Here is a link to the Climatic Summary Plot for peak wind gust:

http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/view_climplot.php?station=46012&meas=pw (http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/view_climplot.php?station=46012&meas=pw)

And finally significant wave heights:

http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/view_climplot.php?station=46012&meas=wh (http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/view_climplot.php?station=46012&meas=wh)

The pretty pictures on your website do no justice to the wind, temperatures and sea state 12 nm off the coast of CA.

It would be good to not end up like these guys who were racing around the Farallon Islands.

http://cdn.abclocal.go.com/images/kgo/cms_exf_2007/news/local/san_francisco/kgo-ss-boat-rocks3-042312-600.jpg

Oh.

Last question.

Will there be a place to tie up my sailboat while I visit the restaurant / gambling casino?

A submarine coming into US waters shooting a torpedo at a ship flying a US flag?

I think someone would have something to say about that.

Edit: It appears that they will be using a more freedom friendly nation for their flag. But they are still within the US's EEZ.

Hi Dan! Thanks for the opportunity to ask questions directly.

The most obvious question I'm sure you'll need to answer at bitcoin2013 is: what currency will be dominant onboard? Will items in the shops there, such as food, be denominated in USD but BTC is just as welcome/preferred? Will companies use BTC to trade between each other for B2B services?

It should go without saying that if you could somehow make BTC the Primary currency onboard, blueseed would be doing bitcoin a HUGE service to help stabilize and legitimize the fledgling currency.

The prospect that interests me the most here is about a possible tenant onboard offering bitcoin services like an exchange to rival MtGox. (Or something even more shady, like Casino.) Assuming you have no problems with energy nor internet connections, I wonder if there are any bitcoin-central business models that would have an advantage in that environment?

Best of luck to you and the boat. I hope to visit it myself.

Hi TomUnderSea (nice nickname :)


We're perfectly well aware of the location being in the Monterey Bay Marine Sanctuary, and that's discussed in the FAQ (http://blueseed.co/faq/#environment), along with the NOAA buoys, pictured on the map (http://blueseed.co/faq/#location). I've added the link to the prohibitions, which if you read carefully, don't apply to us, since they're concerned with exploiting oil and gas resources, not harming marine mammals, not removing historical resources, several discharges "other than from a cruise ship". The only prohibition that applies to Blueseed is this:


Which is great, and easy to comply with. The environmental question is one we've examined carefully together with our environmental advisors (http://blueseed.co/about-us/advisors/#environmental) (one of whom is a Nobel prize co-laureate).

As for the graphics reflecting the ocean conditions, I've added an FAQ entry,
http://blueseed.co/faq/#charter

http://blueseed.co/media/Cloudmade_map_with_ship_buoys_distance_and_international_waters line.png

im more worried about the US than anything else. Its US laws that this is attempting to circumvent.

the bluesseed wouldn't really need a way to stop this sort of attack, all they would need is a way to identify the attacker. If they could do that than i expect they would be perfectly safe.

Looks interesting! Will read more on the site soon ;) Oh and nice web design :)

Blueseed will be no worse, nor better, protected from unidentifiable attacks than any other naval vessel in international waters.  Admirality law applies in this context, and firing upon any ship flying a legally recognizable flag is an act of war.  That doesn't mean that it can't happen, but there are a number of less risky methods of undermining the Blueseed project than attacking the ship itself.  With the right kind of insurance coverage, sinking the ship won't even end the project.  Just make sure that the underwriting company is a major US corporation, so any losses that Blueseed takes can be translated directly into tax losses for the US tax base.

Very cool!
We'll be glad to list you in our catalog  :)
http://thebitcoincatalog.com/request-form/

insurance duh.

thanks.

We believe so as well. Blueseed is the first commercial seasteading venture, and the team has worked at The Seasteading Institute.


We have a donation address, 1BLSD1X13k8oifNo2bMh6eVmu1FiHAEmZw

We also take investments starting at $1k, in exchange for equity, via AngelList in partnership with SecondMarket (http://blueseed.co/AL). AngelList accepts only dollars though.

Dan is Peter Thiel still involved in this idea?

Hi Dan,

It all seems viable enough, you're doing some things right here:

1. WiFi air bridge/point to point connection - Cheap and fast.
2. Take advantage of Seasteading, the ability to move to an optimal location - and you chose to place BlueSeed in a very expensive
    neighborhood + you can provide looser visa restrictions.
3. Renting a ship - rather than trying to build/buy something which would likely kill your project.

So I have known about BlueSeed for like a year or more and been involved with seasteading myself and I'm basically just waiting to see you pull this off, the idea is sound enough.

So I guess all I can ask from another seasteader is this:
Any idea yet how to economically seastead the open oceans considering all the cheap farm land, deserts and cheap actual (albeit remote) islands?

If you think that seasteading is about getting the most bang for your buck when it comes to square footage of property, you are way off.

Not at this stage. This TechCrunch article (http://techcrunch.com/2012/12/13/mike-maples-gets-on-board-blueseeds-sea-platform/) about Blueseed's first seed funding from Floodgate Fund (Mike Maples) and Correlation Ventures explains the situation in more detail.

Man, I really wish I could go to Bitcoin2013.... but with PorcFest (The Porcupine Freedom Festival in New Hampshire) coming up and expenses associated with that, I had to choose one or the other. In that case, PorcFest wins. Hopefully I can make it to Bitcoin2014 (if there is one).

Most important, you did not answer my question about docking facilities for my sailboat!!!  (Yes, it is a serious question)


I hope compliance is as easy as you foresee.  The degree of restrictions you may encounter might surprise you. 

For example, if you intend to moor your vessel (seems like it would be cheaper than constantly running propulsors to maintain position), you may encounter a requirement for "ecologically friendly" anchors.  This can be challenging since the folks making up the requirements are not necessarily the best judges of what is "ecologically friendly".  One proposal I am aware of suggested the anchors be made from granite instead of the more common iron. 

I am concerned about your "30 minute ferry" from Half Moon Bay.  That requires a ferry that travels an average of 24 knots.  Add in delays for clearing Half Mood Bay harbor and you are looking at a vessel that can transit some pretty rough water at 25+ knots.  Last time I was in Half Moon Bay it did not seem like a good place for a vessel that large.

You also indicate that the airport is part of your transportation plan.  I am not aware of any commercial airline providing service to Half Moon Bay.

Why are you not planning to tap into the existing telecom cable running through your selected area? See the referenced chart:

http://www.charts.noaa.gov/OnLineViewer/18680.shtml (http://www.charts.noaa.gov/OnLineViewer/18680.shtml)

Do you intend to be a transnational shipping point?  Your location just a few nautical miles west of the Southern Traffic lane separation plan coming out of San Francisco.

It will be interesting to see if you are successful.

You should listen to this guy.  He used to generate electricity and make running hot and cold water, generate energy by pulling two large chunks of carefully designed, engineered and manufactured metal apart at extremely precise rates and amounts, maintain security of a nuclear submarine base, make warships invisible to radar, make sure that nuclear weapons would work when needed but only when needed, design lasers for weapons, test satellites before they were launched, fix robots that destroyed roadside bombs, and hold political office.

He's also figured out that Seasteading won't work, so you'll want to go ahead and put the brakes on all of this stuff.

An accurate summary of my work history, prior to my current employment.

My viewpoints regarding seasteading are on this forum.

This project is "in my backyard" so to speak.  I am curious how they will address the myriad of problems that I see before them.  Hopefully, by identifying those problems now, they will have a better chance of fixing them cheaply.

You might notice that I have not (yet) said it won't work.  It is an interesting idea.  Depending on how well it is thought out, I might become more involved with it in the future.

If only to dock my sailboat and have a meal.  Their location is nice for spending time prior to an approach into the Golden Gate.

A parachute type sea anchor?


Really?  We're not talking about a car ferry, so it's really a water taxi that can seat roughly 30 people and their carry-on gear.  A vessel that large and faster than that is old hat.  Most large cities wrapped around a bay have one or more of these in their harbor already.

One of the conveniences the website says Blueseed will offer is a "post office." Will that be a US post office? How will that work?

Probably UPS and a lot of other private package shipping systems.  Alternatively, simply a service to ferry your US mail to the USPS on shore.

Initial quotes from Truston Mooring and a dynamic positioning provider indicate that moving the ship at <5kn in a figure-8 pattern would be a more cost-effective option to start with, and will make it easier to move out of the way of storms.


Correct. If we mentioned a Half Moon Bay airport anywhere, please point me to that instance, as it needs clarification. HMB has a small airport, and we will provide helicopter transportation, but the main airport to access Blueseed will be SFO, from where visitors will take ground transportation to Half Moon Bay, or, will board a ferry departing from Pier 39 or the like.


Thanks for that chart. I couldn't quite find that particular telecom cable, but Submarine Cable Map (http://www.submarinecablemap.com/) (the resource we've used so far) shows one going NW-SE. The problem with submarine cables is that the cost of permits is about 8-10x the cost of the cable laying itself. However, the fiber-optic-level speed makes this a compelling option for a post-launch phase.



Actually, I'm surprised you didn't bring up the open ocean docking problem in 6ft Hs. Did you have in mind heave-compensated hydraulic gangways like the OAS[1], or just using a (decommissioned military) ship with a well dock[2]?

Of course, we'd love to have you tie your sailboat to the solution we'll end up using, as long as you don't plan to ride around it in a jet ski (motorized personal watercraft are forbidden (http://montereybay.noaa.gov/intro/mp/regs.html#prohibitions) in the Monterey Bay Marine Sanctuary, as you probably well know), and as long as you'd rather visit the many restaurants onboard (we'll cater to a variety of cuisines, reflecting the 60+ countries where entrepreneurs will come from) - a gambling casino, is a really risky PR move, and we'll stay away from that sort of activity.

---

Links for those unfamiliar with solutions for the Transfer of Personnel to and from Offshore Vessels:
[1]: Offshore Access System, by Offshore Solutions BV, handling 3 meter waves (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diZD3EUzYCs)
[2]: well docks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_dock) are hangar-like decks in the stern of some amphibious ships

Blueseed has always seemed extremely cool to me.

I'm absolutely thrilled to see Blueseed reaching out to the bitcoin community and trying to incorporate bitcoin into their plans.

Best of luck!

Is there a way to get on the waitlist as a "lifestyle business"? Or, just to live there? I found this to be a bit unclear on the website.

Hm...

Love the Blueseed idea, hope it succeeds.

Recommend paying via Bitcoin, but perhaps due to volatility lock your prices at some other currency.

Dan, with so many potential investors using Bitcoins I'd suggest you try to iron a way for BTC owners to invest in Blueseed. I sure would like to own a piece of a seastead - This is a shared ideal by many, to get away from the politicians enslaving us and get a step closer to full freedom.
Locationwise though, I'm worried about the stability of the ship - a cruise ship can feel wobbly enough when static, what methods are going to be used to stabilize the seastead?

*edit*  - don't write posts when coming back from a night of drinking else others will jump you for the spelling and grammar - Seaste[a]d - Chears Dan!
-> Go Blueseed!

It was already mentioned that it will not be static. Moving at a constant rate of "<5kn in a figure-8 pattern".

That's a core aspect of the project, and we've done extensive research (short of a basin study with a ship model, which is too expensive for the funding stage we're at).

First, NOAA buoys around the location (http://blueseed.co/faq/#location) have been recording wave and current data since 1980 (http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/view_climplot.php?station=46012&meas=wh). BitcoinNordic founder Lasse Birk Olesen (fimp (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=8845) here on the forum) analyzed the wave data while he interned for us, and constructed this chart of durations of large wave events:

http://blueseed.co/media/Blueseed_vessel_stability_vs._ocean_waves.png

If you total the numbers, it amounts to a significant wave height under 3 meters, 93% of the time.

Second, a smaller offshore accommodation vessel, the Dan Swift (http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/shipdetails.aspx?MMSI=219041000) (149m x 24m) was shown (http://bit.ly/BlueseedStabilityStudy) (mirror in Spanish (http://www.webcitation.org/67WZAFmpb)) to have a Motion Illness Ratio (http://web.archive.org/web/20120130200705/http://www.lauritzenoffshore.com/LauritzenOffshore/DP-2%20Accommodation%20Vessel.aspx) within the acceptable European standards for ferries, in ocean conditions near Brazil worse (3.5m significant wave height, double wind speed, 15m/s) than those we are likely to encounter.

Third, there is still roll, and there is still that 7% of the time with taller waves. There are two solutions to this:

1. Cruise ships are equipped with stabilizer fins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stabilizer_(ship)). They work when the ship is in motion; the higher the speed, the better they work. One solution is to run the ship in a very large circle or figure 8.

2. Another, greener, solution works while at anchor or at low speed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stabilization_while_not_under_way), using actively-controlled fins (such as the Stabilisation at rest system developed by Rolls Royce (http://www.rolls-royce.com/marine/products/stabilisation_manoeuvring/stabilisers/stabilisation/index.jsp) that oscillate to counteract wave motion), and rotary cylinders employing the Magnus effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_effect) (developed by Quantum Med Marine under the MagLift™ Zero Speed™ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CwPHTN2pSs#t=1m26s) name).

Which solution we'll choose is a tradeoff between the initial capital investment and operating cost.

---

BTC investments


I've been thinking about that since I saw the Reddit thread "Any Bitcoin millionaires here on reddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bhhjg/any_bitcoin_millionaires_here_on_reddit_if_so/)" (I responded to the folks there, albeit a bit too late). There have been a few more threads of that nature in the meantime, Today I'm a millionaire (http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bvbmp/today_im_a_millionaire/) (deleted account), Bitcoin millionaires, do they (really) exist ? (http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bukx0/bitcoin_millionaires_do_they_really_exist/), How 23-year-old Charlie Shrem became a millionaire through Bitcoin (http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1duu9t/how_23yearold_charlie_shrem_became_a_millionaire/). Unfortunately, I don't have access to http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMillionaires...

We're already running a round on AngelList (http://blueseed.co/AL), accepting USD investments in exchange for equity.

What would the community suggest as ways to enable Blueseed to raise investments in BTC?

You would need a registered share dealer to sell pass through shares through bitpay most likely, or accept them directly. I think you have to be a qualified investor though.

Wouldn't it be cheaper to build a platform in international waters than purchase a cruise ship?

Like so:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Stages_In_The_Sinking_Of_A_Naval_Fort.svg

Possibly, but such a structure would be permanently attached to the seabed, and within the EEZ, would be under the jurisdiction of the U.S - see UNCLOS Article 60 (http://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part5.htm).

People like ASICMINER have created shares and those are sold as passthrough on exchanges... I highly recomend BTC-TC, you might want to shoot burnside a PM asking if that would be something possible/doable, with either a set determined company value or by putting up pass-through shares on his exchange... or selling some on those forums.
You can look in the post history how ASICMINER started from nothing, raised funds, and is now bringing shareholders dividends... Although the legal grey waters you'd have to wade through might not be worth it, it's good to consider options.

My question centers more on expansion. Let's say I built a floating concrete-dome house and floated it up, would it be possible to moor it to the ship somehow, using the ship as a hub from which to expand from, in essence. We'd be renting your stable mooring in essence.

International waters; 12 nautical miles out.

+1     That's the real way to build a community:  use the ship as a core unit that supplies power and Internet, around which a stable constellation forms.  The owners of the core dictate "building codes" by virtue of requiring certain seaworthiness and navigation aspects for any core connections.

Wow, this I did not know. You have my money already, you just don't know it yet. Heck yeah I'll invest a grand in seasteading! I want to move out on one as soon as I can make it make financial sense. Even if I have to convert some bitcoin back into playmoney for you ;)

Hi Dan,

I exchanged emails with Max back in January about opening a 100% Certified Organic cafe onboard.  Nothing could make me happier than to accept Bitcoin as the official currency in the cafe.  Have you investigated ATMs or smart cards or other user friendly vehicles yet?

Thanks,
Oaxaca

What would be the source of energy to keep the ship moving? Diesel transported to the ship by ferry? Solar or other electric motors?

The description makes it sound as if this will mostly be computer labs for software development and engineering with computer simulations. Will you have science research labs that would allow researchers to build and develop technology onboard? Two things instantly came to mind: sea-based energy generation, such as through waves or wind, and sewage and waste water recycling for farming. It would be much more ecologically sound to have a large barge somewhere near by where food can be grown experimentally, and fertilized by the people eating that food.

Would you consider adding research or other modular barges to the area? It would be nice to have a floating runway. Helicopters are nice, but they're ridiculously expensive and complicated compared to a prop plane, and as mention in last paragraph, extra space to work and research on would be nice.

I know the boat will be privately owned, but will you allow businesses to set up and sell their own services, such as afformentioned energy and food, or internet access, or other things that may not be considered savory in some countries? Or will all business have to go through your approval and require to pay you a cut?

Will you follow any regulations such as FCC radio band reservations, or will it basically be a free-for-all with conflicts resolved privately?

Will you be capable of providing a safe haven in case of a zombie outbreak on the mainland, including a well trained medical team to inspect arriving refugees for signs of infection, and a well armed security force to suppress any issues should an infection threat come on board?

I'm very pleased to see your involvement with Bitcoin. Bitcoin and Seasteading are two things that fascinate me.

Since this seems an AMA, I'll shoot my questions too.
I've noticed you do intend to provide a considerable level of economic freedom on board, by not collecting taxes, by choosing contractual arbitration as preferred resolution dispute etc. That's awesome. I hope to soon see Blueseed on the top of indexes like those of the Fraser Institute or the Heritage Foundation.

But what about the more "social aspects" of freedom? Some of them tend to be a taboo in US (and many other places), where things as banal as drinking alcohol outside might be illegal. I hope you're not willing to mimic these authoritarian behaviors. So...

• Will gambling be allowed?
• Will recreational use of marijuana be allowed? Now that some US states have allowed it, you'd start worse than them if you don't.
• Will prostitution be allowed? Banning the "oldest profession on Earth" is so stupid I don't even have words for it. And since you're focusing on IT startups, you'll likely not have a balanced men/women ration. I would advice at least a tolerance-policy towards prostitution.
• Will individuals be allowed to carry guns on board? Will there be a place to practice shooting? If you allow the inhabitants to be the "preventive police" of the place, you may save a lot on security.

I also have a question of more practical nature: will there be a nursery/hospital on board? Will health insurance be possible? Do you have an estimate of costs?

And finally, I'm intrigued by these restrictions being mentioned on this thread, related to the fact that the chosen place is a "protected sanctuary" of some kind to some environmentalist religions. Isn't the place outside of US territorial waters? How can US enforce the protection of a sanctuary outside of its jurisdiction? Or does it just ignore international conventions on territorial waters?

Thanks, and congratulations for your work. I really hope you succeed.

I'm sure this will be the case, I was just a little taken aback since I've only seen USPS locations referred to as post offices.

On a related note, how would one receive packages on board? Will Blueseed have its own postal code? Would shipments from the US have to pass through customs?

Dan,try to talk to Micky Arison.He is very well connected.

It's amusing that most of the comments in this thread have little to do with Bitcoin, but I guess Blueseed is a sufficiently complex venture to warrant a number of clarifications.


Initially, fuel (transported by platform supply vessels or the ferries on their return trip) whose emissions satisfy California Air Resources Board (CARB (http://www.arb.ca.gov/)) and Bay Area Air Quality Management District (BAAQMD (http://www.baaqmd.gov/)) standards.


Precisely - we actually intend to favor startups that include a hardware element, and cleantech businesses are especially welcome. Algal biofuel production in tethered floating greenhouses would be good example of technology that takes advantage of the location.


As long as the attachments can safely handle the sea conditions, yes. Since mooring is rather expensive, it will probably make sense for small floating modules to be dynamically positions with the help of Liquid Robotics drones (http://liquidr). Those things can generate impressive amounts of torque for their size.


Helicopters are actually surprisingly cheap, if you have enough of them. According to this calculator (http://www.johnpmorgan.com/helicopters/robinson-cost-calculator/), it appears that with a fleet of 6 helicopters, the cost per person per trip (Blueseed - Half Moon Bay) can get as low as $50. We need to double-check what types of helicopters are allowed to fly over open ocean, and the noise issue needs to be carefully considered.


For Blueseed to succeed, we need to create an environment on the ship that's conducive to startups scaling their ventures. That includes friendly relationships with the authorities; there's no realistic way around that, as much as some would want Blueseed to be some independent territory. We're right near the US, and will be good neighbors. This means that businesses considered seriously unsavory in the U.S. (e.g. drugs that the Coast Guard would come after) won't be welcome. We'll have to exercise discretion when it comes to approving tenants on board.


Most likely we'll follow FCC regulations since we're close enough to the mainland that radio interference could be an issue; also, we'll be near shipping lanes.


Our maritime security partner, Meridian Global Consulting (http://blueseed.co/partners/meridian-global-consulting), are quite a badass bunch. Plus, we'll have the famous retired military dolphins (http://blueseed.co/blog/blueseed-sets-sail/).

Well, you did skip my bitcoin-related questions on the front page here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=199424.msg2078737#msg2078737). ;)


Oh this would be awesome... I'd buy shares of Blueseed stock for sure! -It'd be the most popular stock on the whole exchange, I have no doubt whatsoever.

Oh, I have another one. Will the political status of the ship be honored as a foreign territory, like an embassy, or will anyone with enough power (USA) be able to shove their way around on it? For example, would Julian Assange be allowed to visit, or even move to the ship, and still have the same amount of security/assurance as he does while hiding out at the embassy in London, or will be be immediately arrested and extradited to USA?


Oh, and will BlueSeed be willing to run a dedicated Bitcoin node? It would set up a copy of the blockchain database in international waters, and would give local residents access to a trusted (maybe) bitcoin node that they can still rely on should internet connection be temporarily interrupted.

I would like to thank everyone for their questions and suggestions; will answer more questions as soon as I clear several urgent items on my place.

It appears that there is serious investor interest in Blueseed, as long as investments can be made directly in Bitcoin. For us, it would be easiest, legally speaking, to have the investments converted into fiat, and issue stock. But I'll need to look into the resources that others posted, and talk to folks like Micky Arison and burnside.

@BTCLuke - I had added your Bitcoin questions to the main post :)

Here's a quick answer to Tom, with a cool video. More answers to come!


Have a look at the Nauti-Craft Marine Suspension Systems (http://www.nauti-craft.com/) ferry. Here's a cool video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I37Mo138RwQ); the comparison with the monohull at 2:05 is awesome.

If scaled 2X, it would work very well for us. Alternatively, a fleet of several of them at the current scale would be great too.

Dan,

Have you looked into the actual payment technology onboard?  ATMs?  Smart Cards? Gold bars?

I love the concept.  Very cool.

as an investor in many projects one of the few things i would be looking at to even take a funds beg serious are:
single and final design
proper costing estimates
list of material suppliers
list of engineering companies worthy of fulfilling the contract

blueseed is not in the investment stage of a project. atmost they should be at the pledge stage. this is be cause with all their waffle. they are still talking about it as an IDEA. not a plan.

im sorry but blue seed has been showing off this idea since 2011, looking for investors from different walks of life. business people, developers, banks governments, and yet still do not have the funding. so they obviously cant be on the right path if they cant find enough investment after 2 years and here is why they cant really get any creditble funding:

after 2 years he has still not even come up with a final design to then make proper blueprints to atleast get the materials costs/engineering labour to have an accurate idea of funds requirements, instead he has 4 design idea's.. which even during his writing of these posts he has made comments that things are not finalised by mentioning changes/adaptations that are possible.[1]

i think that not having a final design he cannot accurately know the costs or the timescale to say it will be in the water by summer 2014.[2] and as for their series A funding which was $500k in 2011[3], they could have got the money easily from under 10 entrepreneurs that may wished to go to the UK and convince them to move near silicon valley[4]

and where suppliers deal with FIAT, i think asking for any bitcoin investment is just absurd. what this OP should be doing is going to FIAT investors, but just highlight the project as requiring bitcoin once the project has finished, to be used as a functional currency on the ship. as its not strictly required for the building of the ship.

in short, im not going to invest.

the idea is good, but i feel that he is playing on bitcoiner's dreams of a sanctuary place to use bitcoin[5]. to grab money for his bottomless pit. whereby it will be filled with office staff from multiple countries all working on american/silicon valley projects for dollar without being on mainland due to visa restrictions, not a true free society/country of bitcoin.

once this project is in the sea, i and many of us would be happy to convert main land funds for contract work into bitcoin so they can be used on the ship. but not investing bitcoin just to be sold off instantly into fiat to fill the OP's pockets before a blueprint has even been drawn up

---

[1]Which solution we'll choose is a tradeoff between the initial capital investment and operating cost. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=199424.msg2115102#msg2115102)+multiple other examples of plans that can change
[2] As long as we raise Series A funding on time, Blueseed should be in the water during the summer of next year.
 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=199424.msg2077851#msg2077851)
[3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ll5TGrmWII (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ll5TGrmWII)
[4]http://imgur.com/nSi26jy (http://imgur.com/nSi26jy)
[5] his footer

One step at a time. They're doing it right--with a profitable business-plan in place. Seasteading needs to be self-sufficient economically to survive. This first one is historic, and it's important that it succeed so we can garner mainstream interest in future version and extensions of the idea rather than wait another half-generation before attempting another one.

Franky1,

Most interesting critique, and a ...unique style; thank you for it. I'll take it as if it were addressed to Blueseed, even though you used "he" most of the time. Blueseed isn't "my idea"; we're a team that's been working on it since 2011, and I'm the most technical of us, hence my posting here on Bitcointalk.

That said, at the moment, Blueseed indeed isn't at a stage where all the research had been done, and it would be just a mechanistic matter of finding $18M to launch. That's why the funding stage is seed, not Series A. The reason is simple - the studies that need to be done, cost money. That said, since 2011, we've done a lot (http://blueseed.co/come-aboard/results), with very little (http://techcrunch.com/2012/12/13/mike-maples-gets-on-board-blueseeds-sea-platform/), and succeeded (http://blueseed.co/press) where others have failed spectacularly (http://sea-code.com).

To address your requirement for design, estimates, and lists - here are some examples. The companies and items below have been anonymized, because we can't make them public at this stage.

An engineering study by the best provider of near-zero-speed stabilization systems for the MS XX ship that's the best candidate for chartering, costs $268k to start.

An environmental impact study costs $60k.

Retrofitting the MS XX ship with a bow helipad configured to hold up to 22,000 pounds costs $550k. The schedule is 4-weeks for design; 6-weeks for fabrication; 3-weeks for installation.

We have precise quotes for hospitality and technical costs for the MS XX, obtained from the two best ship management companies in the world, International Shipping Partners, and V.Ships.

I could go on, but this is the sort of information that's generally discussed in a confidential investor meeting, as you surely know as an investor in many projects.


Apologies accepted. We've never looked for investors among developers (?), banks, or governments. At this stage, we've received investments from angel investors (as all startups do first) and research institutions.

Our mistake was to seek investments among venture capitalists, because we wanted to establish relationships with them in order to offer them access to the startups aboard. It turned out that most VCs are 1) uncomfortable investing outside spaces they're familiar with (in Silicon Valley, mobile/social/gaming/e-commerce, most often), and 2) not mandated by their LPs to invest in real estate plays or accelerators.

We've pivoted since towards more "traditional" investors, who are more comfortable with brick&mortar (or metal) ventures.


I "have 4 design idea's"? In case you're referring to the concept renderings (http://blueseed.co/concept-vessels), those are a marketing tool, as it's explained at the top of the page.

As I mentioned before, Blueseed has a quote from the management company of a certain cruise ship that we plan to charter.


Another reference to "design". Perhaps you've read some press suggesting that we'd design and build a ship? Well, surprise, press gets things wrong some times! Stop the presses!

We're not going to do any grand design; rather, we'll charter an existing cruise ship. Thus, one can reasonably estimate a year's lead time.


$500k is not Series A funding, as you must surely know. Please listen again to Max's talk at 1:35 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ll5TGrmWII#t=1m35s) - he said "$500k in seed money".


The chart you reference indicates the minimum amounts a startup needs to get in investments in order to get a visa in certain countries. That means the startup needs to get that investment, and they need it to ensure runway. They can't just fork that over to Blueseed.

Plus, as you surely know as an investor in many projects, startups are highly risky, with a success rate of (optimistically) only 10% within a year. How many early-stage startups would be so confident that they'll be around a year later, plus be at a stage where they'd still be interested in coming to the ship (e.g. team still has no kids, is of a suitable size, still wants to leave their country and ecosystem and customer base etc.), to give Blueseed $50k now?

Hopefully the magnitude of the chicken-and-egg problem will now be apparent: Blueseed can't realistically crowdfund from startups - since you suggested a "pledge" stage. Build it and they'll come - yes, probably in droves, but we have to build it first. And you can't build a prototype, as Elon Musk did with Tesla. Blueseed is the prototype for a completely new industry: ocean-based jurisdictional arbitration.


As absurd as it is to suggest that I've asked for Bitcoin investments. Please do reference that, since you're quite good with references :) (By the way, you probably also know as an investor in many projects, that the public solicitation of investments in a private U.S. company is still illegal (https://www.quora.com/Startup-Advice-and-Strategy/Is-it-legal-to-solicit-investors-for-a-startup-since-the-JOBS-Act-has-passed) under SEC regulations, even though the JOBS Act passed more than a year ago.)

What I did was to asked for topics to discuss during my talk at the conference, and some members of the forum expressed unprompted interest to invest.


Um... duh? That's exactly what we are (http://blueseed.co/AL) doing, and Bitcoin is not required once the project has finished, nor is it required for the... wait, what building of the ship? Are we talking about the same Blueseed? Please see the FAQ, more specifically What ship will Blueseed use? (http://blueseed.co/faq/#ship)


That's a good one :D If we wanted to get money form people and run with it, we would've done that since 2011, taking deposits from startups and claiming we'd charter a ship in 3 months.

I'm not sure I understand the rest of the critique, and after this repeated allegation, I'd rather just not reply to it.

---

Anyway, last night I went to GigaOM's pre-conference meetup and had a great time. I met in person a bunch of people I knew of before, and one of them, Multibit developer Jim Burton (jim618 here) told me that the buzz and the atmosphere were fantastic, and much better than last year. Roger Ver also electrified the audience with one of his passionate speeches, and Mike Hearn made me realize something quite profound:

In the world of Bitcoin, you don't need to be a person in order to have an account. Computer programs can have accounts. Software-run businesses can have accounts, and if they're profitable, they can even hire humans to improve their code. They can spawn off new businesses, and the best will survive and grow.

The singularity is here. :)

Hi Oxaca,

Gold bars might be fun, and would get you in less trouble with animals' rights groups than shark teeth ;)

Smart cards or RFID tags are a proven option used on many company campuses - fast checkout at the cafeteria, secure remote control, can serve as an access badge etc. Everyone used one when I worked at Yahoo!, for example, and there were no complaints.

Bitcoin ATMs would be great to have onboard.

In a year from now, mobile payments and Bitcoin wallets will likely be very common among the tech-savvy crowd.

Off-chain transactions may form a universe of their own and LocalBitcoin will probably get a BlueseedBitcoin clone :)

Bitcoin is evolving very rapidly, and the favorable regulatory environment on the ship will allow the adoption of the latest "thing", plus rapid testing, iteration and improvement of uses nobody has thought of yet.

As a few of the speakers at last night's meetup said,
"Bitcoin is the greatest invention since the internet. In Bitcoin land, we're like in 1992, at the dawn of the Internet age. And you, are at the forefront of it."

ok then thanks for the reply. now my opinion that will help you out.

instead of the word idea, i will now use your word concept.
by concepts/idea's i refer to EVEN YOUR FAQ page thats states "We’ll charter an existing cruise ship like this, this, or this one" which you then say will be retrofitted(requiring hammers and welding torches(hense the whole BUILDing terms i used). meaning a final decision has not been made.

you obviously already have a ship(well 3) in mind that you will retrofit instead of building a whole cruiseliner from start to finish. so that atleast answers the parts about knowing some of the costings estimates. i would advise you make that point more highlighted in the future that you have ship X and retrofit costs are Y requiring Z funds to get it into the water.(you may want to add maybe 50% buffer to the estimates before publishing numbers so that it covers surprises).

just having 3 concepts and shouting for money, but being too afraid to say how much money you need or how it will be used is not a positive presentation.

the CONCEPT designs is something many investors see images of and instantly think that blueseed is not even ready to take money because they have not made any final decisions or shown proof of a certain direction they want to go with it. so try to get to a point where you know what MS XX can handle and what kind of population numbers room dimensions, office/entertainment facilities it will all require and try to make it into a FINAL and SINGLE design.

it does not require $18mill to do this research, it does not even cost hundreds of thousands either. after 2 years of asking for $500k you should already be at this point of having a finalised blueprint and 1 final design. NO CONCEPTS.

projects that show more then one design concept, usually make investors also worry if they throw $5mill at the project. then the money would be used to start one 'concept', but when things go wrong the money will be gone and another concept will be taken over begging for more funds, as if you the project team don't care about the intricate details and costs. you just wish to continue "trying and failing" until something finally works. investors prefer a final plan that is robust and has confidence to succeed first time.

so please go back to the spreadsheets and the numbers and reign in the multitude of idea's and get to a point of a final design, costing and plan.

investors love business plans.. not concepts, idea's.

if you presented this as a business PLAN and not a CONCEPT i would have happily got involved and encouraged numerous contacts to get involved also. but it just seems after 2 years your now running out of avenues for investment as your CONCEPTS have let you down where PLANS would have won you successes.

the use of terms such as SEED / STARTUP / concepts even after 2 years to me and many people in laymans terms is:
the amount that will not be used to complete a project but just play money to waste on things that dont involve a welding torch or a hammer.

the IDEA of a sea-stead is great, don't get me wrong. but your presentation seems a little lacking in confidence with the lack of a final business plan. with no confidence that it will work or that the majority of the money is not going to be wasted on another couple years of your teams salary so that you can go scuba diving in the ocean for fun, under the pretence of research to ensure the concept wont affect the ecosystem. or to pay for your flights and hotel rooms for another 2 years to continue begging for cash.

much like those charities that have paid 'fundraisers' where their salary matches the funds raised.

you should by now be beyond the seed requests and displaying concepts. you should be at the final design and business plan stage after 2 years.

the use of the image showing UK of £77k and USA of $1mill  where the entrepeuner in the UK would end up spending that money on an office space, bills and salary(meals and place to live) what are very well known business costs. by them offering blueseed a certain sum. that is what they will get. a place to live, office space, meals, bills, etc. all covered.

so using the UK, knowing it will cost lets say £37k to have somewhere to live, eat, and then have office space to work in.. that can go to blue seed (as an example) the other half would be used directly on their own projects. much like the reality of starting up onland.

so instead of them "just forking it over" to office/housing landlords onshore its used for the same purpose on sea.

I saw no point in his request for topics to speak about at the Bitcoin conference where he was soliciting investments or should have publicly presented Blueseed's business plan.

I would imagine that that would be something discussed after an investor contacts them and goes through the non-disclosure process and is vetted as a valid investor. Some of us requested being able to invest using bitcoins, which I would gladly invest a bit towards it.


You keep talking about finalizing designs for a ship that has not yet been purchased. From their FAQ it appears that they are looking at buying a used cruise ship. You cannot finalize a design for a ship before you purchase it since any money spent toward that would be wasted if the ship designed for is not available by the time the money is ready. It would be like planning on building a building and having a few lots of land available. You could present the concept but final design could not be done until the lot is purchased and you know what the final lot's layout includes.

It appears that they have narrowed down a criteria "between 190 and 230 meters (~620 – 750ft) long, and between 24 and 29 meters (~78 – 95ft) wide" and have received quotes on what it would take to retrofit that type of ship.

Looks like a fun ride.  I would be curious to see what their maintenance requirements are with all those moving parts that are exposed to salt spray. 

I would have expected a move toward http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small-waterplane-area_twin_hull (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small-waterplane-area_twin_hull) for improved sea keeping.  It is passively stable instead of actively stable.  The potential speed gain of the Suspension Craft compared to the SWATH vessel is mitigated by long period swells that generate heave at higher speeds.

This project will be interesting to watch.  Still curious how I'm supposed to tie up my sailboat when I stop by for lunch.

Would a dirigible for a smaller community work? It could travel slowly back and forth between CA and NY...

This is awesome, I saw discussion about it in another thread.

i'd take to it!

but then, with that flight route, you're in US airspace, which is most DEFINITELY in their legal control. defeats the point, from the "international waters" angle.

still would be incredible... i've long dreamed of such a venture - private home like that, or running a airship based hotel.

"Hey! The government can't control the sky. What if you lived in a balloon?" -Grampa Simpson

What an who cares, just another inner circle mba with his rich venture capitalist friends looking to take advantage of the masses.

One thought I had: Would I qualify to be on the BlueSeed ship if my venture was high-tech tourism? Specifically, I rent out 4 rooms, advertise visiting the most high tech and way out there vacation, and sublet those 4 rooms to tourists, with me just providing the advertising, managing the bookings, and handling hotel service type things?  :)

An idea to get media attention to projects like yours:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=212562.0

It appears that they have selected the cruise ship:

http://technode.com/2013/05/23/blueseed-ready-to-charter-a-cruise-ship-to-accommodate-more-than-1000-entrepreneurs/

http://technode.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/MS-Island-Escape.jpg

I've been learning about ships lately.  I'd guess that the reason that this project has been advised to troll around in a figure-8 pattern is that the ship needs to be moving in order for the stabilizers to work.


Now think about what happens when you put a couple dozen of these on the bottom of a large stationary platform, and make the resistance provided by each one variable and computer-controlled.

I wonder when Blueseed intends to put this ship into service.  Currently it is still possible to book a cruise in the Med on the MS Island Escape for the summer of 2014.

http://www.thomson.co.uk/cruise/itineraries/glitz-and-glamour-itinerary.html

That implies MS Island Escape won't be on station until the Fall of 2014.  The weather usually holds until mid December.  Could be an interesting winter.

I still don't see a place to moor my yacht when I stop by for breakfast on my way to San Francisco.  For that matter, it is not obvious how they plan to do underway replenishment (UNREP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underway_replenishment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underway_replenishment) ).  Cruise ships are not built for that.

Looks like there is a door on the side toward the rear.

http://blueseed.co/wp-content/uploads/Island-Escape-2007-back-left-below-ShipSpotting-468590-photo-by-Eddie-Walker.jpg

Yep.  Looks like they might be able to put a floating dock alongside with an accom ladder up to that door.  Of course that precludes steaming in figure eights.

The figure eight steaming is a requirement for the fin stabilizers to work well enough to mitigate the anticipated ship motion due to sea state.  They will probably need to maintain a forward motion of at least 5 knots to get sufficient reaction force off the stabilizers for them to be effective.

This will be fun to watch.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/gallery/popcorn-gifs/qB7b6.gif

are you guys going to need a chef? my wife is a professional chef with experience preparing food for very large groups of people. not just cafeteria food either, her background is in preparing fine food for wealthy people.  ;D

Why do you need an offshore ship, what are the possible advantages unless you are trying to do something illegal?

If the above, the Govt will eventually find a way to get you and it's far easier to do it in a dozen other lawless countries anyway. Oh and it would also discourage genuine companies from being associated.

By the way, something similar was tried in the UK for many years, it's a fixed platform called Sealand and it was never successful.

I think you COMPLETELY missed the point of this. And by "missed" I mean "didn't read anything besides the topic heading."
Please go back and actually read the web page that describes what this is for, where it will be, what legal status it will have, etc, before spouting opinions about specifically what is covered on the FAQ.

I suggest everyone watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fdwlFb-On0

If there's a steady current, the this sort of steaming requires only minor course changes and no turning of 180. Let the current push you back a mile, steam forward a mile and back into center, power off, drift back a mile, correct course back to center, engine off, drift back a mile, etc.

Iirc, the current off California flows generally south, so assuming they'd faith a southerly current almost continually they'd be pointing the boat north permanently to do a figure-eight pattern.

That might preclude a traditional dock, but there may be ways around that too yet unthought of.

$99.99 per jug??? 

I can beat that price!

I offer $50 plus shipping and handling.

Yes, there is a current.  See this website:
http://hfradar.ndbc.noaa.gov/index.php?s=46247

The past 25 hour average is 13.1 cm/s at 031 degrees.  That is 0.47km/h or about 1/4 of a knot.  If they used the "drift and drive" technique you propose, they would drift for 20 hours for every one hour spent steaming at 5 knots.  Perhaps this is not as effective a method as it might have seemed.

Again, I offer the viewpoint that nothing is easy on the sea.  If it was, I would not be paid as well as I am to go to sea.

The beauty of having a ship in International waters is that you can hire international workers that will work for less than minimum wage and be making much more than they would have back home.

I offered my services with setting up the computers and network but realized that likely they will likely hire several foreigners that will get paid what I would be asking. Part of the reason I do not offer my services on freelancer.

Hello again everyone!

With apologies for the absence, and with promises of answering all the intervening questions,
it is my pleasure to present the Blueseed talk from the Bitcoin 2013 conference, complete with slides and subtitles.

http://blueseed.co/wp-content/uploads/Bitcoin_talk_2013-May-19_720p_gray_play.jpg (http://youtube.com/watch?v=EbDcm0SSBdw&rel=0&list=PL0868F96D13654427)

Thanks Dan, listening to your talk now; let's change the world! ^_^

Great talk Dan! Looking forward to Blueseed putting its first ship out.

Looks like someone had a better idea:

Boat stabilizes with the help of internal waves (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khu-XdU0ZwA)

http://www.sintef.no/home/MARINTEK/News/The-ship-that-waves-wont-rock/

I wrote a very long, detailed post on this but it got erased so I will just retype the important points:



This project should have conducted an ECONOMIC FEASABILITY study before anything. This project screams negligent at best, scam at worst.

Realistically a project like would cost between $20 and $80 million. It basically appears to me you are pocketing people's donation money knowing full well this project will never produce any results.

Your Indeigogo campaign raises $20,000 for an engineering study. Again, why wouldn't you do an economic feasibility study first? Who is the engineer? Again, more donation money going into private pockets under the ruse of this project being realistic and the lie it would ever being realized.

Your BlueSeed website looks like it was made in 5 minutes, honestly. You FAQ addresses mundane and arbitrary topics, and ignores anything relevant and important.
Visas? Internet connection? Give me a break!



It's obvious this is a money grab for naive Bitcoiners money.

UPDATE: I read some more. It seems you have gone from your own ship, to chartering a cruise ship. This is unrealistic. Now what I read centers around bleeding overseas tech companies money, renting them a room on the cruise ship, based on the fact they couldn't get a visa and come to the mainland! What a crock!

Thank you! Someone with a brain.