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Title: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on January 15, 2010, 09:42:18 AM Hi everyone. I'm in the process of building an exchange. I have big plans for it, but I still have a lot of work to do. It will be a real market where people will be able to buy and sell Bitcoins with each other. In the coming weeks I should have a website with a basic framework set up. Please bear with me.
Title: Re: New exchange Post by: sirius on January 16, 2010, 10:39:25 AM Sounds good. Are you planning a bitcoin <-> euro/dollar service only, or are you going to enable trading other goods as well? That would be like an auction site where you trade stuff for bitcoins.
Title: Re: New exchange Post by: The Madhatter on January 16, 2010, 11:45:22 PM You may want to read this.
https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=15.msg105#msg105 Title: Update Post by: dwdollar on February 06, 2010, 10:37:44 PM I am trying to create a market where Bitcoins are treated as a commodity. People will be able to trade Bitcoins for dollars and speculate on the value. In theory, this will establish a real-time exchange rate so we will all have a clue what the current value of a Bitcoin is, compared to a dollar. I have an early version up at http://98.168.168.27:8080/ (http://98.168.168.27:8080/)
This is only a small demonstration of what I have in mind and to show everyone I'm actively working on it. Feel free to register and try it out. You will get 10 phoney dollars and 10,000 phoney bitcoins to trade. ONLY the limit orders work. Market orders will come later. Title: Re: New exchange Post by: dwdollar on February 06, 2010, 10:43:24 PM Sounds good. Are you planning a bitcoin <-> euro/dollar service only, or are you going to enable trading other goods as well? That would be like an auction site where you trade stuff for bitcoins. I want to create a "real life" market for Bitcoins. People will be able to exchange dollars with me, but I'd rather it be in less frequent larger amounts. Title: Re: New exchange Post by: BlueSky on February 07, 2010, 08:22:48 AM I assume you are using Rails or PHP Cake, as that seems to be the URL layout.
Am testing your application, I will let you know of any issues. You might call it BitMarket Title: Re: New exchange Post by: dwdollar on February 07, 2010, 02:08:03 PM I assume you are using Rails or PHP Cake, as that seems to be the URL layout. Am testing your application, I will let you know of any issues. You might call it BitMarket Thank you. Any and all help is appreciated, along with suggestions. That's why I've decided to share it with everyone at this early stage. I'm using Python with CherryPy. I'm really working on two separate beasts. The website itself and the market program. I need to work on the market program first, but in order for everyone to help me test things, I need at least a basic site set-up. Title: Re: New exchange Post by: dwdollar on February 07, 2010, 02:13:35 PM I encourage anyone to make more than one account. Place buy and limit orders at various prices for each of your accounts and check to see if confirmed trades are accurate.
Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: m0mchil on February 08, 2010, 03:55:35 PM I would like to be able to see all of my orders and to be able to edit/cancel them. Also, a 'market depth' view would be nice.
Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: SmokeTooMuch on February 08, 2010, 09:57:23 PM i registered today and i think i see a major privacy issue there.
when i klick on my profile i can clearly see my password, so i guess it is saved "as is" in your database and not as a hash or something. you should change this. Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on February 09, 2010, 02:51:38 AM i registered today and i think i see a mature privacy issue there. when i klick on my profile i can clearly see my password, so i guess it is saved "as is" in your database and not as a hash or something. you should change this. Yes definitely. Since that's a major issue I'm going to bring the website down for a couple of days until it's fixed. I am changing the database over to MySQL anyway and will be deleting the old one. Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on February 09, 2010, 03:04:50 AM I would like to be able to see all of my orders and to be able to edit/cancel them. Also, a 'market depth' view would be nice. Editing and cancelling orders will be options at some point soon. I will expand on past trades as well. I'd like to have a daily graph on the front page eventually. I'm not sure what you mean by "market depth" though? Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: m0mchil on February 09, 2010, 08:27:55 AM It would be difficult to explain... here is an example (http://bit.ly/9bClP4)
Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on February 17, 2010, 02:14:04 AM Site is back up at http://98.168.168.27:8080/ (http://98.168.168.27:8080/)
Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: ec on February 17, 2010, 08:33:34 AM Site is back up at http://98.168.168.27:8080/ (http://98.168.168.27:8080/) Great! One way to establish trust from users could be to publish your sourcecode (e.g. to github (http://github.com) or similar) for others to review for security. You might also get patches and new features for free. Furthermore, it would make it easier for other to start similar exchanges, strengthening the bitcoin currency. I really hope to see more work like this, so keep it up! :) Edit: I have two comments to your implementation so far: 1) When a wrong username/password pair is entered, you should not indicate witch one is wrong, as it reveals information. 2) You should set up a https server using a self-signed certificate (or one signed at cacert (http://cacert.org)), as connections over TOR are almost certainly sniffed. Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on February 17, 2010, 05:53:49 PM Quote Great! One way to establish trust from users could be to publish your sourcecode (e.g. to github (http://github.com) or similar) for others to review for security. You might also get patches and new features for free. Furthermore, it would make it easier for other to start similar exchanges, strengthening the bitcoin currency. I really hope to see more work like this, so keep it up! :) Edit: I have two comments to your implementation so far: 1) When a wrong username/password pair is entered, you should not indicate witch one is wrong, as it reveals information. 2) You should set up a https server using a self-signed certificate (or one signed at cacert (http://cacert.org)), as connections over TOR are almost certainly sniffed. Thank you. I will fix the username/password issue in the next update. I do have SSL set up but it's disabled at the moment. Right now I'm thinking about doing this for profit, either by commission or a withdraw fee of some sort. If it ever gets to the point where I'm tired of working on it I will definitely share the code with the community. Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on March 03, 2010, 02:57:01 PM Finally an update! The graph I added should auto update at around 5pm CST today. The last three days on it are just an example. Anybody can register and do some mock trading. You can use the above IP address or redirect from my GoDaddy host at http://www.bitcoinmarket.com/ (http://www.bitcoinmarket.com/)
Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: ihrhase on March 03, 2010, 11:02:18 PM I have to agree with MH, on his post from the other thread, BC will not have a real value until people are trading in BC, if you attempt to value it by trade from BC to $ and vice versa, all someone has to do to completely destroy your market is dump all BC for $.
If the BC marketplace cannot provide real world goods and services for BC, then it will be doomed to failure... Some people are stuck on the idea that BC is valued at the expense for generating BC's... BUT... The problem is that if there is no commodity available that people want, one cannot expect to see people pay $ for BC, regardless of the cost one incurs in generating them... It is like saying I spent $X on creating Salmon and Sauerkraut Smoothies, so people should buy it for $X, but since no one wants Salmon and Sauerkraut Smoothies, no one will buy them, most likely they will not take them for free. Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: NewLibertyStandard on March 03, 2010, 11:39:22 PM Except that people want bitcoins...
Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on March 04, 2010, 12:41:05 AM I have to agree with MH, on his post from the other thread, BC will not have a real value until people are trading in BC, if you attempt to value it by trade from BC to $ and vice versa, all someone has to do to completely destroy your market is dump all BC for $. If the BC marketplace cannot provide real world goods and services for BC, then it will be doomed to failure... Some people are stuck on the idea that BC is valued at the expense for generating BC's... BUT... The problem is that if there is no commodity available that people want, one cannot expect to see people pay $ for BC, regardless of the cost one incurs in generating them... It is like saying I spent $X on creating Salmon and Sauerkraut Smoothies, so people should buy it for $X, but since no one wants Salmon and Sauerkraut Smoothies, no one will buy them, most likely they will not take them for free. Unless there is a way to determine demand, no one will be using them as a currency. Even now, every Bitcoin has a value. The key is finding it and tracking it. I want this to be a real market where buyers and sellers determine the value based on their demand. It will match buyers and sellers (it can already do that) accordingly. I will only be a broker. I don't think we should be worried about what the value is. Our main concern should be accurately determining that value as it fluctuates. If it's 100,000BC/$1, 1000BC/$1, or even 1,000,000BC/$1 then whatever... The fact we are worrying about people dumping Bitcoins suggests we haven't determined an accurate value yet. Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: ihrhase on March 05, 2010, 02:20:18 AM Unless there is a way to determine demand, no one will be using them as a currency. Even now, every Bitcoin has a value. The key is finding it and tracking it. I want this to be a real market where buyers and sellers determine the value based on their demand. It will match buyers and sellers (it can already do that) accordingly. I will only be a broker. I don't think we should be worried about what the value is. Our main concern should be accurately determining that value as it fluctuates. If it's 100,000BC/$1, 1000BC/$1, or even 1,000,000BC/$1 then whatever... The fact we are worrying about people dumping Bitcoins suggests we haven't determined an accurate value yet. The value of a money is what one can expect to gain in exchange for said money.... I am not worried about people dumping BC's on your exchange, I am saying any value is arbitrary until people come to accept BC as a medium of exchange... Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on March 05, 2010, 05:54:04 AM The value of a money is what one can expect to gain in exchange for said money.... I am not worried about people dumping BC's on your exchange, I am saying any value is arbitrary until people come to accept BC as a medium of exchange... I don't think their value is arbitrary. Just really really small. A medium of exchange or currency needs to have a "stable value" or at least a value that can exist within a certain range for an extended period of time. This builds trust. When there are multiple exchanges trading Bitcoins and each exchange is tracking a similiar exchange rate it will build trust. Eventually it will reach a critical mass. Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: ihrhase on March 05, 2010, 09:20:11 AM I don't think their value is arbitrary. Just really really small. A medium of exchange or currency needs to have a "stable value" or at least a value that can exist within a certain range for an extended period of time. This builds trust. When there are multiple exchanges trading Bitcoins and each exchange is tracking a similiar exchange rate it will build trust. Eventually it will reach a critical mass. Really now? Do you know why people used gold as money? How about unbacked paper? Trust is not built by corresponding blips on the internet, it is built by being able to use regularly and gain an expected result... If no one can purchase anything but $ with bitcoins then bitcoin is nothing more than a gamble on anticipating other people's expectations on the utility of bitcoin. IF one can only purchase consumer goods OR capital goods with bitcoin, an exchange is necessary to fuel the economy with transaction material, for example: If I sell widgets and I accept bitcoin for them, if I cannot buy widget supplies to generate widgets in bitcoin, I will require an exchange for the purpose of attaining the capital goods necessary to resupply my production cycle. Conversely, if I can buy my capital goods in bitcoin, but no one will buy my consumer good in bitcoin, I will require an exchange to resupply, using bitcoin. However if both transactions are taking place using the bitcoin medium of exchange, I may only need an exchange if there are not enough goods to exchange my profits in a (subjectively) worthwhile manner... Is it that you and another exchange collude that give bitcoin value, or is it that I can expect to use bitcoin in exchange for goods? If an exchange rate is stable from one exchange to the next, it builds trust that the exchanges are legit, but does nothing to secure a value to bitcoin. Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: Suggester on March 06, 2010, 07:31:19 PM If the BC marketplace cannot provide real world goods and services for BC, then it will be doomed to failure... OR they will buy it for $X in hope that soon enough it will cost $2X to generate them so they can run away with a quick 100% profit via selling them to someone who'll sell them for $4X. I can't get this chronic-deflating scenario out of my head, darn. I for one will easily buy $100 worth of coins and offer whatever I'm gonna sell in the future for Bitcoins also, provided that the price was approximately constant near the lowest global cost of electricity (about $3/month/CPU). Only then will I be virtually sure that I won't have problems transferring my coins out of the system for cash or vice versa at any time later, not waiting fearfully for a price bubble to pop.Some people are stuck on the idea that BC is valued at the expense for generating BC's... BUT... The problem is that if there is no commodity available that people want, one cannot expect to see people pay $ for BC, regardless of the cost one incurs in generating them... It is like saying I spent $X on creating Salmon and Sauerkraut Smoothies, so people should buy it for $X, but since no one wants Salmon and Sauerkraut Smoothies, no one will buy them, most likely they will not take them for free. Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: NewLibertyStandard on March 06, 2010, 11:38:44 PM The problem with keeping the price at production cost is that there is not enough supply to meet demand. If the price of bitcoins is at the bare minimum and everyone tries to buy $100 worth of bitcoins, there will not be enough bitcoins in existence for everyone to get as many as they want. But if the price fluctuates based on demand, then the price will rise until everyone can get as many dollars worth of bitcoins as they want. In fact if someone wants a trillion dollars worth of bitcoins and had nearly a trillion dollars, then they could do it. All they would have to do is buy all the available bitcoins everyday, which would cause the value to rise until how many they have is worth a trillion dollars. If everyone only wants $0.01 worth of dollars and no more, then as everyone sells their excess bitcoins, the value of bitcoins falls until how many they have is worth $0.01. There is always the risk that everyone will try to sell their bitcoins, thus devaluing your bitcoins, but that's just how the system works and the rest of us bitcoin users are fine with that risk. All currencies, stocks and commodities work the same way although with differing levels of risk and growth. If you just want the most stable currency available, invest equally in the Swiss franc (CHF), the Singapore dollar (SGD), the New Zealand dollar (NZD) and the U.S. dollar (USD) (http://www.stablecurrencyindex.com/Background/how_we_choose.html). Perhaps you can create a currency which is backed 100% by those four currencies and automatically exchange the ratio of balances within the reserve as the value of the currencies change so as to maintain an equal value of each currency at all times. Good luck with that. :-P
Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: Suggester on March 07, 2010, 05:52:01 AM The problem with keeping the price at production cost is that there is not enough supply to meet demand. If the price of bitcoins is at the bare minimum and everyone tries to buy $100 worth of bitcoins, there will not be enough bitcoins in existence for everyone to get as many as they want. How can you say that when this very problem exists at the bigger scale under the current model? If that occurs, it will encourage more people to use their machines in generating since they'll be selling $3 worth of electricity for $5 or whatever. If it reaches something like $12, very few people will buy and would prefer to generate it themselves. Free market economy!In fact if someone wants a trillion dollars worth of bitcoins and had nearly a trillion dollars, then they could do it. All they would have to do is buy all the available bitcoins everyday, which would cause the value to rise until how many they have is worth a trillion dollars. I don't see why this is NOT a problem under the current model. But in any case, so be it. Let him buy a trillion dollars worth of bitcoins and make me rich because I'll be selling him my $3 block for $50 every month.If everyone only wants $0.01 worth of dollars and no more, then as everyone sells their excess bitcoins, the value of bitcoins falls until how many they have is worth $0.01. If this occurs then the project would be already dead. Otherwise why would you sell your block which you paid $3 for for less than $3?There is always the risk that everyone will try to sell their bitcoins, thus devaluing your bitcoins, but that's just how the system works and the rest of us bitcoin users are fine with that risk. All currencies, stocks and commodities work the same way although with differing levels of risk and growth. If you just want the most stable currency available, invest equally in the Swiss franc (CHF), the Singapore dollar (SGD), the New Zealand dollar (NZD) and the U.S. dollar (USD) (http://www.stablecurrencyindex.com/Background/how_we_choose.html). Perhaps you can create a currency which is backed 100% by those four currencies and automatically exchange the ratio of balances within the reserve as the value of the currencies change so as to maintain an equal value of each currency at all times. Good luck with that. :-P I'd go for that if there was a way to anonymously generate and transfer it online :)Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: NewLibertyStandard on March 07, 2010, 07:07:24 AM The value of a bitcoin is not based on the cost to produce a bitcoin but rather on whatever people are willing to pay for it. If it costs $3.00 to produce some number of bitcoins but no one is willing to buy them, then although their intrinsic value is $3.00, their actual value is not $3.00. If you buy a car for $20,000, then at that moment when you purchase it, it is worth $20,000 but its value drops as soon as you drive it off the lot unless you can convince someone to pay more than $20,000 for it. Bitcoins are only worth as much as you can sell them for. Right at this moment ฿23,789.91 is worth $138.41 because that is how much I will pay for that many bitcoins. But ฿47,579.82 is not worth $276.82 unless someone buys more bitcoins from me. My exchange rate is the accurate value of bitcoins within the limits of my available balances. Your understanding of how people behave is severely lacking. Not everyone operates under the same motives as you. Even given equal information and equal understanding, not everyone operates with the same motives as you. And you come off as arrogant and ignorant when you make black and white statements about how people will behave. People are buying and selling bitcoins. At certain points in the future people may buy more frequently than they sell and at other times people may sell more than they buy and the value of bitcoins will adjust. There is nothing wrong with selling your bitcoins at a profit. The people who are buying the bitcoins at above production costs are adults, capable of making their own financial decisions. I am completely transparent in how my exchange rate works. No one is conning anyone else out of their money. All the facts are available to everyone, not to mention also the source code to Bitcoin itself.
Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: Suggester on March 07, 2010, 11:44:24 AM You're the one who demonstrates day after another your total economic ignorance. I told you a zillion times that price simply HAS to equal cost. If it's more, everybody will generate and sell for a profit to exploit that difference. If it's less, everybody would buy instead of generating because it's cheaper. In the end, the equilibrium of cost=price is inevitable. I can't understand how a mature person supposedly running an exchange service can't grasp such a very simple and clear concept.
Bitcoin is not a national currency. It's not subject to import and export influences. It's not subject to inbound or outbound immigration. It's got nothing to do with central banks' interest rates. It's something which you exert a fixed and built-in-stone amount of effort to acquire. You're comparing apples to elephants when you keep talking about BTC as if it was a Dollar or a Euro. Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: NewLibertyStandard on March 07, 2010, 12:09:23 PM Bitcoin is a working example of you being wrong today and it will continue to be a working example of you continuing to be wrong tomorrow. Supply and demand will always have a much greater influence on the value of bitcoins than production costs. And factors apparently beyond your comprehension, outside of your little economic model, will continue now and forever to affect the supply and demand of bitcoins.
If it's more, everybody will generate and sell for a profit to exploit that difference. If it's less, everybody would buy instead of generating because it's cheaper. LOOK AT MY EXCHANGE (http://newlibertystandard.wetpaint.com/page/Exchange+Rate)!!! According to your oh so smart evaluation, my available dollars should be zero. Are they? ARE THEY?Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on March 07, 2010, 05:04:20 PM You're the one who demonstrates day after another your total economic ignorance. I told you a zillion times that price simply HAS to equal cost. If it's more, everybody will generate and sell for a profit to exploit that difference. If it's less, everybody would buy instead of generating because it's cheaper. In the end, the equilibrium of cost=price is inevitable. I can't understand how a mature person supposedly running an exchange service can't grasp such a very simple and clear concept. Bitcoin is not a national currency. It's not subject to import and export influences. It's not subject to inbound or outbound immigration. It's got nothing to do with central banks' interest rates. It's something which you exert a fixed and built-in-stone amount of effort to acquire. You're comparing apples to elephants when you keep talking about BTC as if it was a Dollar or a Euro. That would be true if an infinite amount could be generated at any one time. It is the scarcity created by finite production which drives value above production cost. Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on March 07, 2010, 06:54:38 PM I don't think their value is arbitrary. Just really really small. A medium of exchange or currency needs to have a "stable value" or at least a value that can exist within a certain range for an extended period of time. This builds trust. When there are multiple exchanges trading Bitcoins and each exchange is tracking a similiar exchange rate it will build trust. Eventually it will reach a critical mass. Really now? Do you know why people used gold as money? How about unbacked paper? Trust is not built by corresponding blips on the internet, it is built by being able to use regularly and gain an expected result... If no one can purchase anything but $ with bitcoins then bitcoin is nothing more than a gamble on anticipating other people's expectations on the utility of bitcoin. IF one can only purchase consumer goods OR capital goods with bitcoin, an exchange is necessary to fuel the economy with transaction material, for example: If I sell widgets and I accept bitcoin for them, if I cannot buy widget supplies to generate widgets in bitcoin, I will require an exchange for the purpose of attaining the capital goods necessary to resupply my production cycle. Conversely, if I can buy my capital goods in bitcoin, but no one will buy my consumer good in bitcoin, I will require an exchange to resupply, using bitcoin. However if both transactions are taking place using the bitcoin medium of exchange, I may only need an exchange if there are not enough goods to exchange my profits in a (subjectively) worthwhile manner... Is it that you and another exchange collude that give bitcoin value, or is it that I can expect to use bitcoin in exchange for goods? If an exchange rate is stable from one exchange to the next, it builds trust that the exchanges are legit, but does nothing to secure a value to bitcoin. I'm not trying to create value out of nothing or facilitate a Ponzi scheme. Just a market for buyers and sellers and a way to track demand versus the US Dollar. Every buyer may have a different reason for buying and every seller may have a different reason for selling. Resupplying a production cycle is just one reason of many. The exchangers are not going to create trust in bitcoin all by themselves, but they are a critical piece that must be in place. Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: ihrhase on March 08, 2010, 05:22:14 PM The US Government has made a position, you should be aware of it...
and your exchange seems to be down... on a side note... Price has nothing to do with cost Suggester, maybe you should not wave the economic ignorance finger at anyone else before you keep it from being pointed at yourself... If price does not equal cost do you not sell your product at a loss in order to recoup capital and try a new venture? Maybe you will suggest hoarding your product from the market, because if no one wants it they might after you tell them they cannot have it... The fact is price is subjective, if the market will not support the price at cost the market is not wrong, the entrepreneur is wrong, he had employed his capital incorrectly, and that is the end of that story... Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: FreedomFirst on March 08, 2010, 11:06:19 PM I agree with ihrhase wholeheartedly about the government. The government doesnt like competition and if you do enough to get their attention, they'll spare no cost to bring the network down. Sad but true. It doesnt even matter if its legal or illegal. Legality has nothing to do with it. The US government always has and always will bend laws or manufacture crimes to make an example of those who contest its power in any way shape or form. I dont agree with the US Government one bit but when it comes to the government the old maxim is true. Whoever has the gold makes all the rules.
So until things changes, we're all criminals whenever the government decides so. And Im not just referring to Bitcoin or its users. As to bitcoin's value, its all a matter of basic economics... Supply VS Demand. Currently I see a lot of supply but almost no demand. Unless demand is created in volume nothing else matters. With excess supply and little demand...there is very little value and it will remain so until demand is created. If the demand doesnt increase proportionally to the supply IE if supply increases and demand stays the same or lessens then value will decline of course. People tend to make economics far more complicated than it really is. Sorry DwDollar but Ihrhase has it on the nose with what he's saying. Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on March 09, 2010, 05:19:14 AM I think I've found the problem with the frequent market crashes. It will be another day or two before I have an update to fix it.
The server was down today due to an unrelated hardware problem. It is back up at http://98.168.172.185:8080/ (http://98.168.172.185:8080/) and I updated the redirect at http://www.bitcoinmarket.com/ (http://www.bitcoinmarket.com/) Stay positive people! Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on March 16, 2010, 05:05:28 AM I've decided its time to try some real trading. I think it will be more exciting for everybody (myself included). If you're interested there is more info on the site. You can deposit either Dollars or Bitcoins or both. This isn't a donation! It's the real thing, but I want to keep it on a small scale for now.
I'm using Paypal for the cash handling, until I find something better. I kept all the accounts from the last update so some of you won't have to re-register. I also created an account and placed a bid for 500 Bitcoins @ $.0067/BC which I think is NewLibertyStandard's current exchange rate. I enabled SSL but it's a self-signed certificate right now (you'll get notifications that will try to scare you away). If you have any questions you can post them here or send them to bitcoinmarket@gmail.com https://98.168.172.185/ (https://98.168.172.185/) www.bitcoinmarket.com (https://www.bitcoinmarket.com) Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: DannyM on March 16, 2010, 11:22:49 PM The SHA1 fingerprint of your SSL certificate is 5A 69 7D 11 98 65 0A FE BA 4A 1C DA 90 4E 8B B9 87 1F A6 88, correct?
Thanks for this service by the way. Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on March 17, 2010, 01:36:01 AM The SHA1 fingerprint of your SSL certificate is 5A 69 7D 11 98 65 0A FE BA 4A 1C DA 90 4E 8B B9 87 1F A6 88, correct? Thanks for this service by the way. Yep, that's correct. Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: ihrhase on March 17, 2010, 12:10:09 PM Is there a human volume to your market, do you have population numbers as of right now DW?
Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: DannyM on March 17, 2010, 02:53:55 PM It looks like you can only have one open order at a time, is that correct? Is it desirable to add the feature of allowing multiple open orders?
Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: The Madhatter on March 17, 2010, 03:49:39 PM That URL is bunk.
The NZD? New Zealand is bankrupt. The USD? The US is almost in a depression and it might lose its status as a reserve currency. (Not to mention rampant inflation.) I'd just choose gold or silver. If you just want the most stable currency available, invest equally in the Swiss franc (CHF), the Singapore dollar (SGD), the New Zealand dollar (NZD) and the U.S. dollar (USD) (http://www.stablecurrencyindex.com/Background/how_we_choose.html). Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on March 17, 2010, 05:04:01 PM That URL is bunk. https://98.168.172.185/ (https://98.168.172.185/) https://www.bitcoinmarket.com (https://www.bitcoinmarket.com) I just changed it. I assumed that my ISP blocked port 443 along with 80, but evidently they do not. The domain name is now pointing directly to my IP Address. Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on March 17, 2010, 05:07:01 PM Is there a human volume to your market, do you have population numbers as of right now DW? There are 9 people signed up but only 3 have made a deposit so far. Myself makes 4. Looks like we had our first real trade around noon! Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on March 17, 2010, 05:20:58 PM It looks like you can only have one open order at a time, is that correct? Is it desirable to add the feature of allowing multiple open orders? Yes that's correct. I don't think it would be too difficult to add multiple orders, but that might be awhile. There's a lot of other things I need to automate first. Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on March 17, 2010, 05:21:58 PM Sorry for the address changes. I should have forewarned everyone.
Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: matonis on March 20, 2010, 05:39:08 PM Hi,
Very exciting news about the momentum building for Bitcoin. I just posted a summary on my economics blog, "The Monetary Future", which can be found at http://themonetaryfuture.blogspot.com/2010/03/bitcoin-peer-to-peer-electronic-cash.html The blog focuses on digital online exchangers and anonymous digital currencies penetrating the market so that we may all protect our financial privacy. Should be interesting and entertaining for many on this forum. It is always amazing to me that the same people respecting the anonymity of a paper $100 bill do not seem to respect that same privacy when it is extended into a 'digital cash' equivalent. A digital bearer certificate, privately issued, would emulate the anonymity and untraceability features of a paper bill just like the ones in use today. The cryptographic technology exists now. Privacy should not be sacrificed simply for the sake of going digital. RESIST DIGITAL MONEY......UNLESS IT'S ANONYMOUS http://themonetaryfuture.blogspot.com Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on March 21, 2010, 07:18:13 PM Hi, Very exciting news about the momentum building for Bitcoin. I just posted a summary on my economics blog, "The Monetary Future", which can be found at http://themonetaryfuture.blogspot.com/2010/03/bitcoin-peer-to-peer-electronic-cash.html The blog focuses on digital online exchangers and anonymous digital currencies penetrating the market so that we may all protect our financial privacy. Should be interesting and entertaining for many on this forum. It is always amazing to me that the same people respecting the anonymity of a paper $100 bill do not seem to respect that same privacy when it is extended into a 'digital cash' equivalent. A digital bearer certificate, privately issued, would emulate the anonymity and untraceability features of a paper bill just like the ones in use today. The cryptographic technology exists now. Privacy should not be sacrificed simply for the sake of going digital. RESIST DIGITAL MONEY......UNLESS IT'S ANONYMOUS http://themonetaryfuture.blogspot.com Excellent. It seems like many of the Austrian School are stuck on gold as the only "true" currency. While that may be true in the physical world, it will never be able to compete with fiat systems in the digital world. There needs to be an alternative. I hope many of them come to understand that currencies like Bitcoin don't want to replace gold, but to augment it in the digital world. Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: ihrhase on March 22, 2010, 12:40:00 PM Excellent. It seems like many of the Austrian School are stuck on gold as the only "true" currency. While that may be true in the physical world, it will never be able to compete with fiat systems in the digital world. There needs to be an alternative. I hope many of them come to understand that currencies like Bitcoin don't want to replace gold, but to augment it in the digital world. The people claiming to be Austrians that denounce any currency over another are not Austrians at all, they are people introduced into economics by Ron Paul, who has no interest in discussing Austrian theory of money, only the Austrian theory of government and money... Gold is a terrific way to control the government spending, as they only have a limited resource... As for economy as a whole, even paper currency is not "unworkable" so long as there is a competition, the problem with government money is fiat legislation and credit expansion... Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on April 25, 2010, 02:45:22 AM I'm trying something new...
From now on cash will be sent directly from the Bitcoin buyer to the Bitcoin seller using PayPal. When a trade is conducted on the market, an email is sent to the buyer instructing him/her to send money to the seller. When the seller confirms they've received payment, the Bitcoins are released to the buyer. (I hold the Bitcoins). If a trade "goes bad", I will refund the Bitcoins to the seller. Bitcoin deposits and withdrawals are automated. You can find more info on the site. This is experimental. It's going to have some bugs, so please bear with me. Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: theymos on April 25, 2010, 12:52:38 PM PayPal payments can be easily reversed. Unless an irreversible system like Liberty Reserve is used, it would be better for you to handle the payments.
Does BitCoin Market fill orders partially if the entire amount is not available? Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on April 25, 2010, 01:21:07 PM PayPal payments can be easily reversed. Unless an irreversible system like Liberty Reserve is used, it would be better for you to handle the payments. Does BitCoin Market fill orders partially if the entire amount is not available? Yes, partial orders are filled, if the whole amount is not available. Charge-backs are a weakness of this system. I've thought about ways to help rectify this weakness. I've come up with two so far... 1) A user rating system, based on past trades and/or time. 2) Forcing the buyer to keep Bitcoins in his/her account for a period of time as collateral. I haven't seen a fool-proof exchange method yet. Some would argue that LR can't be trusted or a centralized account is begging to be confiscated. Who knows... But I do know designing something that fits the needs of a large audience is hard work, especially when our community is still so small. PayPal is fairly common to all. Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: sirius on June 10, 2010, 10:26:03 AM Dwdollar, you might want to redirect http connections to Bitcoin Market to https. Now they just timeout.
Great service btw. :) I like the price graph. Can you make it show a continuous line instead of dots? Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: lachesis on June 10, 2010, 02:26:52 PM Sirius, I don't think he can redirect them. His ISP blocks port 80, so he never even sees our attempted connections.
Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on June 10, 2010, 09:55:36 PM Yeah, my ISP blocks port 80. I had a landing page on GoDaddy, but took it down a while back.
The Historical chart is suppose to be in Open-High-Low-Close format. But, if the price doesn't move, it ends up looking like a dash. I've never been able to get the scaling right either (which doesn't help). Eventually, I want to abandon matplotlib and use a JQuery plug-in. Some interactive charts might be fun to use! Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: Svick on July 14, 2010, 09:35:52 PM I can't connect to https://www.bitcoinmarket.com/ nor to https://98.168.172.185/. Is the site down?
Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on July 14, 2010, 09:40:11 PM It's up, but another busy day. I'm working on it as fast as I can.
Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: Stone Man on July 15, 2010, 06:47:44 PM It looks like the Alexa site rank has broken the 400,000 barrier.
http://www.alexa.com/search?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bitcoinmarket.com%2F&r=site_screener&p=bigtop (http://www.alexa.com/search?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bitcoinmarket.com%2F&r=site_screener&p=bigtop) Just for comparison, one of the leading websites for talk radio in my area is only at 600,000 and they charge $5,000 / ad on their site. It looks like your hard work is going to pay off! Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on July 16, 2010, 02:46:09 AM It looks like the Alexa site rank and broken the 400,000 barrier. http://www.alexa.com/search?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bitcoinmarket.com%2F&r=site_screener&p=bigtop (http://www.alexa.com/search?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bitcoinmarket.com%2F&r=site_screener&p=bigtop) Just for comparison, one of the leading websites for talk radio in my area is only at 600,000 and they charge $5,000 / ad on their site. It looks like your hard work is going to pay off! Oh wow, I had no idea I was even ranked! Thanks for sharing that! Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: Insti on July 17, 2010, 12:10:55 AM The SHA1 fingerprint of your SSL certificate is 5A 69 7D 11 98 65 0A FE BA 4A 1C DA 90 4E 8B B9 87 1F A6 88, correct? Thanks for this service by the way. Yep, that's correct. Has the SHA1 fingerprint changed? I'm not getting this value when I check it. (firefox seems to not be letting me cut and paste what I am getting...) Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on July 17, 2010, 12:54:29 PM The SHA1 fingerprint of your SSL certificate is 5A 69 7D 11 98 65 0A FE BA 4A 1C DA 90 4E 8B B9 87 1F A6 88, correct? Thanks for this service by the way. Yep, that's correct. Has the SHA1 fingerprint changed? I'm not getting this value when I check it. (firefox seems to not be letting me cut and paste what I am getting...) Yes, it has changed. That was the self-signed certificate I was using a while back. The one I use now is verified by StartCom. Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: FreeMoney on July 22, 2010, 08:32:36 AM Are we having any PayPal charge backs? I heard people can charge back for a long period, it would be awful if someone did thousands in transactions in a month and charged it all back. What is PayPal's procedure for this? How will we show goods provided?
When we send PP are we okay to do it as a gift to avoid fees? Are you considering a way to keep trader's USD on site if they want. It seems silly to buy coins with PayPal, pay fees, sell coins, pay fees, repeat. If I could just move a chuck to a safe, no fee place I would trade a ton. Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2010, 11:19:45 AM Are we having any PayPal charge backs? I heard people can charge back for a long period, it would be awful if someone did thousands in transactions in a month and charged it all back. What is PayPal's procedure for this? How will we show goods provided? When we send PP are we okay to do it as a gift to avoid fees? Are you considering a way to keep trader's USD on site if they want. It seems silly to buy coins with PayPal, pay fees, sell coins, pay fees, repeat. If I could just move a chuck to a safe, no fee place I would trade a ton. Paypal is making out like a demon with all the bitcoin exchanging..... Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: NewLibertyStandard on July 22, 2010, 10:02:08 PM Are we having any PayPal charge backs? I heard people can charge back for a long period, it would be awful if someone did thousands in transactions in a month and charged it all back. What is PayPal's procedure for this? How will we show goods provided? When we send PP are we okay to do it as a gift to avoid fees? Are you considering a way to keep trader's USD on site if they want. It seems silly to buy coins with PayPal, pay fees, sell coins, pay fees, repeat. If I could just move a chuck to a safe, no fee place I would trade a ton. Paypal is making out like a demon with all the bitcoin exchanging..... Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on July 22, 2010, 11:32:03 PM No charge-backs so far.
Has anybody had experience with charge-backs in other affairs? What were the circumstances? At what point after the initial transaction did they occur? 24 hrs? 10 days? 30 days? I'd like to hear about it. How can I better prevent it? You can send me a PM or an anonymous email if you want to keep it discreet. When we send PP are we okay to do it as a gift to avoid fees? I think most donate or gift it.Are you considering a way to keep trader's USD on site if they want. It seems silly to buy coins with PayPal, pay fees, sell coins, pay fees, repeat. If I could just move a chuck to a safe, no fee place I would trade a ton. I had done that previously. The madness behind the different exchange rates (PayPalUSD vs MoneyBookersUSD vs LibertyReserveUSD vs. etc.) is that each processor has it's own associated risks. In theory, the risk of charge-back is factored into the exchange rate along with many other things.Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: FreeMoney on July 24, 2010, 07:33:09 PM Hey, dw. I just thought of something. As time passes people may forget about orders, if they end up getting called on, they may not use that email address anymore, or maybe just not be interested. This would clog things up pretty badly though if say the price were falling through 29 orders that were 2 months old.
Just saying maybe there should be an expiry date. Maybe user specified, but with a 1 month max or something. Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: FreeMoney on July 24, 2010, 09:02:06 PM Thanks marketmaker, that's only a little worse than how I thought it was. I think the markets are probably more vulnerable than whatever you were doing because people can essentially buy cash. And with the long window for charge backs, they can do it many times. I would hope though that canceling 48 small transfers would throw up some flags at PayPal, but who knows.
Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on July 26, 2010, 01:47:16 AM Hey, dw. I just thought of something. As time passes people may forget about orders, if they end up getting called on, they may not use that email address anymore, or maybe just not be interested. This would clog things up pretty badly though if say the price were falling through 29 orders that were 2 months old. Just saying maybe there should be an expiry date. Maybe user specified, but with a 1 month max or something. Yeah, I should probably auto cancel offers after a certain period. With the recent influx the tables are getting fairly large. Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on July 26, 2010, 02:22:32 AM I run a business that uses PayPal for its payments. We offer full, cheerful, speedy refunds on request, on the basis that "the customer is always right", yet we still get the occasional chargeback (about one in a thousand PayPal transactions). The chargebacks have happened as long as 90 days after the original payment, but normally it's much sooner (typically when someone's credit card statement lists the payment that funded the PayPal transaction). Here's the type of thing that has caused these chargebacks: 1. The credit card used was stolen. When the owner gets his statement, he gets the transaction reversed. 2. There's a family dispute. Husband makes the payment, using a card that's in joint names with the wife. The wife gets the transactions reversed. 3. A teenager uses the parent's credit card, perhaps even with permission. When the parent discovers the nature of the purchase, they get the transaction reversed. 4. The buyer was drunk when they placed the order, and regretted it later. Rather than contacting us for a refund, they asked for a chargeback instead. 5. The buyer was confused (e.g. by the direction of a currency exchange, or even just by reading the wrong line on their statement). In a panic, they contact their credit card company or PayPal to get the transaction reversed, without taking the time to work out what really happened. From PayPal's side, the process seems to be mostly automated. You get emails asking for certain information. You send off all the information to show that you didn't do anything wrong. Then someone at PayPal glances at it, and decides to reverse the transaction anyway, and charges an extra PayPal fee for their trouble. I've never had one of these decided in my favor. I think you just have to accept that. It's how the system works, and there are always going to be some unreasonable chargebacks. If you can keep them down to one in a thousand, it's a cost you can carry (even though it leaves a sour taste). For an extra-big transaction you can protect yourself by making personal contact with the customer before processing any goods or services, but it's too time consuming to do that for every transaction. Thanks marketmaker, that is helpful. I'm wondering if there are any "magic" dates for which the risk of charge-back drops off significantly. I've thought about holding all Bitcoins for 10 days, or at least for new sign-ups, until some trade history is established. Holding them for 90 days is out of the question though. Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: sehrgut on July 28, 2010, 01:22:50 AM What's the minimum withdrawal volume from the market? I purchased BTC100, but can't get it out to actually use for trade because I don't have enough in there.
Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on July 28, 2010, 03:56:22 AM What's the minimum withdrawal volume from the market? I purchased BTC100, but can't get it out to actually use for trade because I don't have enough in there. There's no minimum to withdraw funds. Double check your Bitcoin Address on the Account tab. If that doesn't work, send an email with your username to bitcoinmarket@gmail.com I'll be able to help better if I know who you are. :) Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: sehrgut on July 28, 2010, 04:22:35 AM Curious. Well, I have more in my account now, and it's letting me withdraw. The error message definitely specified a minimum (though it was slightly ambiguous whether the minimum was balance or withdrawal amount). As I can now withdraw, I can't reproduce the error message, and only have memory going for me. *wry grin*
By the way, the new currency-specific tabs on the markets page are pretty awesome! Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: dwdollar on July 28, 2010, 04:53:51 AM Curious. Well, I have more in my account now, and it's letting me withdraw. The error message definitely specified a minimum (though it was slightly ambiguous whether the minimum was balance or withdrawal amount). As I can now withdraw, I can't reproduce the error message, and only have memory going for me. *wry grin* By the way, the new currency-specific tabs on the markets page are pretty awesome! Maybe you had some listed in an Ask Offer? That gives me an idea. I should probably have a "BC Available To Withdraw" "BC Available To Withdraw" = "Total BC" - "Total BC In Ask Offers" Title: Re: New exchange (Bitcoin Market) Post by: sehrgut on July 28, 2010, 12:12:06 PM Ah! That was it. I have a BTC100 Ask. I didn't realise that you had to have those covered from in-market balance. I'd thought one of the reasons for requiring a bitcoin address was to be able to confirm trades could be covered by bitcoin trackable through the blockchain to that address.
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