New exchange (Bitcoin Market)

[Anonymous]

Are we having any PayPal charge backs? I heard people can charge back for a long period, it would be awful if someone did thousands in transactions in a month and charged it all back. What is PayPal's procedure for this? How will we show goods provided?

When we send PP are we okay to do it as a gift to avoid fees?

Are you considering a way to keep trader's USD on site if they want. It seems silly to buy coins with PayPal, pay fees, sell coins, pay fees, repeat. If I could just move a chuck to a safe, no fee place I would trade a ton.

Paypal is making out like a demon with all the bitcoin exchanging.....

[1714864768]

1714864768

[NewLibertyStandard]

Are we having any PayPal charge backs? I heard people can charge back for a long period, it would be awful if someone did thousands in transactions in a month and charged it all back. What is PayPal's procedure for this? How will we show goods provided?

When we send PP are we okay to do it as a gift to avoid fees?

Are you considering a way to keep trader's USD on site if they want. It seems silly to buy coins with PayPal, pay fees, sell coins, pay fees, repeat. If I could just move a chuck to a safe, no fee place I would trade a ton.

Paypal is making out like a demon with all the bitcoin exchanging.....

I've done lots of PayPal exchanges and haven't had any charge backs yet. Most of the PayPal transactions are fee free. I like Pecunix better than PayPal even though it charges a fee because there's no chance of a charge back, you can prove transactions to a third party, the fees are small for small transactons and it's a commodity rather than the dollar. I have nothing against the dollar and unlike many here, I don't have a problem with the banking system, but the United States government doesn't like the characteristics of Bitcoin as described in a public government report that I posted in another thread. I don't have the link offhand, but if you want it, you can search through my messages. I don't think the government will target someone as poor as me, but it's always in the back of my mind.

[dwdollar]

No charge-backs so far.

Has anybody had experience with charge-backs in other affairs?  What were the circumstances?  At what point after the initial transaction did they occur?  24 hrs?  10 days? 30 days?  I'd like to hear about it.  How can I better prevent it?  You can send me a PM or an anonymous email if you want to keep it discreet.

When we send PP are we okay to do it as a gift to avoid fees?

I think most donate or gift it.

Are you considering a way to keep trader's USD on site if they want. It seems silly to buy coins with PayPal, pay fees, sell coins, pay fees, repeat. If I could just move a chuck to a safe, no fee place I would trade a ton.

I had done that previously.  The madness behind the different exchange rates (PayPalUSD vs MoneyBookersUSD vs LibertyReserveUSD vs. etc.) is that each processor has it's own associated risks.  In theory, the risk of charge-back is factored into the exchange rate along with many other things.

[FreeMoney]

Hey, dw. I just thought of something. As time passes people may forget about orders, if they end up getting called on, they may not use that email address anymore, or maybe just not be interested. This would clog things up pretty badly though if say the price were falling through 29 orders that were 2 months old.

Just saying maybe there should be an expiry date. Maybe user specified, but with a 1 month max or something.

[FreeMoney]

Thanks marketmaker, that's only a little worse than how I thought it was. I think the markets are probably more vulnerable than whatever you were doing because people can essentially buy cash. And with the long window for charge backs, they can do it many times. I would hope though that canceling 48 small transfers would throw up some flags at PayPal, but who knows.

[dwdollar]

Hey, dw. I just thought of something. As time passes people may forget about orders, if they end up getting called on, they may not use that email address anymore, or maybe just not be interested. This would clog things up pretty badly though if say the price were falling through 29 orders that were 2 months old.

Just saying maybe there should be an expiry date. Maybe user specified, but with a 1 month max or something.

Yeah, I should probably auto cancel offers after a certain period.  With the recent influx the tables are getting fairly large.

[dwdollar]

I run a business that uses PayPal for its payments. We offer full, cheerful, speedy refunds on request, on the basis that "the customer is always right", yet we still get the occasional chargeback (about one in a thousand PayPal transactions).

The chargebacks have happened as long as 90 days after the original payment, but normally it's much sooner (typically when someone's credit card statement lists the payment that funded the PayPal transaction).

Here's the type of thing that has caused these chargebacks:

1. The credit card used was stolen. When the owner gets his statement, he gets the transaction reversed.

2. There's a family dispute. Husband makes the payment, using a card that's in joint names with the wife. The wife gets the transactions reversed.

3. A teenager uses the parent's credit card, perhaps even with permission. When the parent discovers the nature of the purchase, they get the transaction reversed.

4. The buyer was drunk when they placed the order, and regretted it later. Rather than contacting us for a refund, they asked for a chargeback instead.

5. The buyer was confused (e.g. by the direction of a currency exchange, or even just by reading the wrong line on their statement). In a panic, they contact their credit card company or PayPal to get the transaction reversed, without taking the time to work out what really happened.

From PayPal's side, the process seems to be mostly automated. You get emails asking for certain information. You send off all the information to show that you didn't do anything wrong. Then someone at PayPal glances at it, and decides to reverse the transaction anyway, and charges an extra PayPal fee for their trouble. I've never had one of these decided in my favor.

I think you just have to accept that. It's how the system works, and there are always going to be some unreasonable chargebacks. If you can keep them down to one in a thousand, it's a cost you can carry (even though it leaves a sour taste).

For an extra-big transaction you can protect yourself by making personal contact with the customer before processing any goods or services, but it's too time consuming to do that for every transaction.

Thanks marketmaker, that is helpful.  I'm wondering if there are any "magic" dates for which the risk of charge-back drops off significantly.  I've thought about holding all Bitcoins for 10 days, or at least for new sign-ups, until some trade history is established.  Holding them for 90 days is out of the question though.

[sehrgut]

What's the minimum withdrawal volume from the market? I purchased BTC100, but can't get it out to actually use for trade because I don't have enough in there.

[dwdollar]

What's the minimum withdrawal volume from the market? I purchased BTC100, but can't get it out to actually use for trade because I don't have enough in there.

There's no minimum to withdraw funds.  Double check your Bitcoin Address on the Account tab.  If that doesn't work, send an email with your username to bitcoinmarket@gmail.com

I'll be able to help better if I know who you are.

[sehrgut]

Curious. Well, I have more in my account now, and it's letting me withdraw. The error message definitely specified a minimum (though it was slightly ambiguous whether the minimum was balance or withdrawal amount). As I can now withdraw, I can't reproduce the error message, and only have memory going for me. *wry grin*

By the way, the new currency-specific tabs on the markets page are pretty awesome!

[dwdollar]

Curious. Well, I have more in my account now, and it's letting me withdraw. The error message definitely specified a minimum (though it was slightly ambiguous whether the minimum was balance or withdrawal amount). As I can now withdraw, I can't reproduce the error message, and only have memory going for me. *wry grin*

By the way, the new currency-specific tabs on the markets page are pretty awesome!

Maybe you had some listed in an Ask Offer?

That gives me an idea.  I should probably have a "BC Available To Withdraw"
"BC Available To Withdraw" = "Total BC" - "Total BC In Ask Offers"

[sehrgut]

Ah! That was it. I have a BTC100 Ask. I didn't realise that you had to have those covered from in-market balance. I'd thought one of the reasons for requiring a bitcoin address was to be able to confirm trades could be covered by bitcoin trackable through the blockchain to that address.