Bitcoin Forum

Bitcoin => Bitcoin Discussion => Topic started by: gizmoh on May 15, 2013, 04:33:55 PM



Title: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: gizmoh on May 15, 2013, 04:33:55 PM
http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Mt-Gox-Dwolla-Warrant-5-14-13.pdf

The target is clearly Mtgox.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: nfurno on May 15, 2013, 04:38:51 PM
It doesn't say the amount of funds in the account. Anyone know?


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: Birdy on May 15, 2013, 04:40:10 PM
So a Bitcoin is money now and not a commodity anymore?


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: gizmoh on May 15, 2013, 04:46:19 PM
It doesn't say the amount of funds in the account. Anyone know?
The warrant is drafted before a seizure,maybe Gox can enlighten us..The link is taken from this news:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/05/feds-reveal-the-search-warrant-that-seized-mt-gox-account/


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: coincepts on May 15, 2013, 04:48:01 PM
This is acting on the new guidelines set forth by FinSEC. These guidelines are not law and therefore this is not a legal proceeding.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: tclo on May 15, 2013, 04:48:58 PM
So a Bitcoin is money now and not a commodity anymore?

There wasn't bitcoin in that Dwolla acct...it was about deposting and withdrawing fiat.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: Birdy on May 15, 2013, 04:52:47 PM
So a Bitcoin is money now and not a commodity anymore?

There wasn't bitcoin in that Dwolla acct...it was about deposting and withdrawing fiat.
Yes, but all trading is in paying with money, where is the difference between buying DVDs then?
It reads like they see Bitcoins as currency now.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: Ultraviolet on May 15, 2013, 04:53:41 PM
This is acting on the new guidelines set forth by FinSEC. These guidelines are not law and therefore this is not a legal proceeding.

Really, dude? A Court Order signed by a US District Court Judge and executed by DHS isn't a legal proceeding?

FinCen Guidelines? You didn't even read the warrant, did you?


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: yokosan on May 15, 2013, 04:57:18 PM
Before anybody goes and says that Gox is immune because they are in Japan, I just want to state that Japan would actually be very quick to react. In the past they have been more than happy to get rid of a foreign company if there is even a slight whiff of something dodgy going on. They don't want bullshit from foreign companies.

I expect Gox will be expelled from their office in Shibuya before June.

Based on their track record I wouldn't be surprised for a monumental fuckup, Mark has proven to be criminally negligent on multiple occasions not least of all the reaction to the 2011 hack, not to mention the pirate fiasco.

This is your last warning mark, flee the country and go somewhere safe now or you will find yourself in prison very soon. You don't want to be the only 外国人 in a Japanese prison now, do you? At least you will loose that belly of yours on one bowl of white rice and a glass of water every day.

At the very least this is grounds for him to have his visa revoked making him unable to continue working in Japan. Then it's just a case of what happens to the company and it's assets.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: jackjack on May 15, 2013, 04:58:12 PM
http://www.sowal.com/bb/images/smilies/michael-jackson-eating-popcorn.gif


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: Kluge on May 15, 2013, 05:06:49 PM
This was pretty shocking to read. They're calling Bitcoin a currency, now... same rules as the dollar (except it isn't legal tender, obv), and I guess we can now say it's recognized by the government... Hm.

Before anybody goes and says that Gox is immune because they are in Japan, I just want to state that Japan would actually be very quick to react. In the past they have been more than happy to get rid of a foreign company if there is even a slight whiff of something dodgy going on. They don't want bullshit from foreign companies.

I expect Gox will be expelled from their office in Shibuya before June.

Based on their track record I wouldn't be surprised for a monumental fuckup, Mark has proven to be criminally negligent on multiple occasions not least of all the reaction to the 2011 hack, not to mention the pirate fiasco.

This is your last warning mark, flee the country and go somewhere safe now or you will find yourself in prison very soon. You don't want to be the only 外国人 in a Japanese prison now, do you? At least you will loose that belly of yours on a bowl of white rice and a glass of water every day.
Gox isn't immune because they deal with US customers and USD. Further, Mark's Mutum Sigillum LLC is based in Delaware. If Mark is charged, and they do single him out in the warrant, he's likely to be extradited before he can even research and get a passport to a place which might not extradite him.

This is pretty much THE test case which will determine Bitcoin's future. If Gox loses, the various gov't departments will have precedent to go after EVERYTHING BTC businesses are at risk for when Bitcoin's considered a currency.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: threeip on May 15, 2013, 05:15:07 PM
https://i.imgur.com/OwF81Ug.png

Who is the Maryland Snitch?


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: coastermonger on May 15, 2013, 05:18:04 PM
There are two sad realities here.

1) I have absolutely zero confidence in the MtGox legal defense team

2) If MtGox goes down, it will be a loooong time before bitcoin can recover

Hopefully someone can provide some relief


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: Nagato on May 15, 2013, 05:30:05 PM
Quote
That document was completed on May 20, 2011 and identified Mutum Sigillum LLC as a business not engaged in money services. The application asks several questions; to include, "Do you deal in or exchange currency for your customer?" and "Does your business accept funds from customers and send the funds based on customers' instructions (Money Transmitter)?" Karpeles answered these questions "no," indicating that Mutum Sigillum LLC does not deal in or exchange money, and that it does not send funds based on customer instructions.

Here is how i see things in Gox's defence,

"Do you deal in or exchange currency for your customer?"
If Mutum Sigillum LLC was setup to merely hold deposits in a US bank account, then the LLC was not directly dealing with currency exchange.
Any exchange was done by MtGox which is based in Japan and not required to be bound by US rules/regulations.

"Does your business accept funds from customers and send the funds based on customers' instructions (Money Transmitter)?"
Again if the customer funds remained in the Wells Fargo account in US and never moved from that bank account to Japan, he rightfully answered no.



Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: Quantus on May 15, 2013, 05:43:29 PM
TLDR: the Feds found out Mt-Gox lied when setting up a bank account in the USA.  And So they just took all the money in said account.

its unknowable if this is a isolated event or part of a larger move to crack down on Bitcoin.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: TLS freedom on May 15, 2013, 05:53:44 PM
Mt.Gox is going to have to prove no USD actually moved from USA to Japan when a customer put money in / took money out. If this is not the case or they can't prove it they are in trouble.
The other issue is bitcoin and if the govt is going to try to call it currency.

I'll bet the leadership is kicking themselves right now they didn't follow through selling North American Ops to coinlab... Could have avoided the US govt's nonsense and saved $50 million +

Beginning of the end for Gox?


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: Fiyasko on May 15, 2013, 05:54:04 PM
Oh great... Fucking defend with anything you've got.
If they win, bitcoin loses.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: Zeke_Vermillion on May 15, 2013, 05:56:02 PM
Note that the warrant mentions STATE registration. There are 50 states. Something like 49 of them, plus or minus, require registration at the STATE level for this kinda biz. Think about the absurdity of this. Let's say every jurisdiction in the world had similar requirements to in the US (and to be fair, many do, though the effectiveness of enforcement is not uniform). It is thus financially impossible to run an international currency exchange without an enormous legal and compliance budget. Basically you have to be a large financial institution to do this. If you're a well-capitalized startup, then you must focus on a single market (e.g. US only, or Japan only) and pray that you can build partnerships with well-capitalized players in other markets, or else are acquired by a big financial institution that already has a presence in multiple markets.

EDIT: if you're not a well-capitalized startup, but just a software engineer playing with new technology and ideas... better stick to monopoly money or something that has no value.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: RodeoX on May 15, 2013, 05:59:06 PM
Mt.Gox is going to have to prove no USD actually moved from USA to Japan when a customer put money in / took money out. If this is not the case or they can't prove it they are in trouble.
The other issue is bitcoin and if the govt is going to try to call it currency.

I'll bet the leadership is kicking themselves right now they didn't follow through selling North American Ops to coinlab... Could have avoided the US govt's nonsense and saved $50 million +

Beginning of the end for Gox?
That's what I was thinking. This could have been a non-issue if the deal had not fallen apart.  I don't get it. They saw the FinCen thing stating that they had to become a money transmitter or they will be in violation of the law. Did they think that was a joke?


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: wopwop on May 15, 2013, 06:03:50 PM
50$ comes in bank account from person X
... nothing happens with money ...
50$ goes out bank account to person Y


= money transmitter


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: CypressXM on May 15, 2013, 06:09:09 PM
This is bogus. Mutum Silligum does not transfer money, Dowalla does. Mutum is a vendor, they are only transferring the money to the parent company.

This would be the same as busting a Google subsidiary in Germany for not registering as a "Money transmitting business" because they sent profit back to the U.S. parent company.

The agent went Full Retard. Either that or it's a real attack.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: SlaveInDebt on May 15, 2013, 06:09:41 PM
50$ comes in bank account from person X
... nothing happens with money ...
50$ goes out bank account to person Y


= money transmitter

Love it. Money in banks allowed, money moving out bad  :D


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: CompNsci on May 15, 2013, 06:14:57 PM
Perhaps CoinLab suggested to the Feds that they may be interested in investigating this issue.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: SlaveInDebt on May 15, 2013, 06:31:43 PM
Perhaps CoinLab suggested to the Feds that they may be interested in investigating this issue.

Na, that sounds too plausible.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: mcgravier on May 15, 2013, 06:33:53 PM
Bullshit.

It is impossible to transmit every single order by Mutum Sigillum to Mtgox in Japan on behalf of their clients, because wire costs would kill the buisness. The two companies were merly reducing funds imbalance from time to time - it cannot be called transmitting money on behalf of their clients. And Mtgox is out of U.S jurisdiction, so unlicenced money exchange part does not apply as well.

I think we are dealing with political attack.

And so the shitstorm begins!


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: bozak on May 15, 2013, 06:35:42 PM
This is pretty much THE test case which will determine Bitcoin's future. If Gox loses, the various gov't departments will have precedent to go after EVERYTHING BTC businesses are at risk for when Bitcoin's considered a currency.

Why?  That doesn't make any sense.  The only reason they have a case at all is because Mark did not register as a money transfer business.  Both CampBX and Coinbase are registered, so they would have no case. 


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: CompNsci on May 15, 2013, 06:37:16 PM
It looks like it is the transfer of the money from the Iowa bank account to Dwolla, in order to facilitate a customer transaction, that will really get them in trouble here. That transfer is denominated in USD, and appears to be based on customer requests.

The application made by M. Karpeles for the bank account which stated they were not in the money transmitting business is also going to hurt. Perhaps he can argue that the account was originally intended for a different use. It will sort of depend on when it was linked to Dwolla.

Overall, this seems like more trouble for Mt. Gox arising from their unprofessional practices.

CampBX had better start gearing up for an increase in volume.

I am trying to figure out a way that you could argue that Mt. Gox is not involved in the transfer of USD, only BTC.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: TheFootMan on May 15, 2013, 06:37:47 PM
Bullshit.

It is impossible to transmit every single order by Mutum Sigillum to Mtgox in Japan on behalf of their clients, because wire costs would kill the buisness. The two companies were merly reducing funds imbalance from time to time - it cannot be called transmitting money on behalf of their clients. And Mtgox is out of U.S jurisdiction, so unlicenced money exchange part does not apply as well.

I think we are dealing with political attack.

And so the shitstorm begins!

Yes, we do know the people behind the Coinlab lawsuit has deep pockets, also with political connections. So they could pull this off.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: DrKennethNoisewater on May 15, 2013, 06:38:18 PM
Typically, Once a govt agency seizes funds, those funds are never recovered.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: Stampbit on May 15, 2013, 06:40:33 PM
Looks like the price of coin is still rising, lol.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: impulse on May 15, 2013, 06:48:23 PM
Well, looks like this is the result of yet more Gox incompetence. Is it time yet to get out of that exchange yet? How many more of these incidents are Gox users willing to endure?


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: Cryptoman on May 15, 2013, 06:50:02 PM
Looks like the price of coin is still rising, lol.

That is exactly what the value of an un-seizable asset should do in the presence of seizures.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: ChinaCoin on May 15, 2013, 06:51:58 PM
https://i.imgur.com/OwF81Ug.png

Who is the Maryland Snitch?

Buying bitcoin is illegal or something??????


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: TheFootMan on May 15, 2013, 06:54:17 PM
Well, looks like this is the result of yet more Gox incompetence. Is it time yet to get out of that exchange yet? How many more of these incidents are Gox users willing to endure?

Well, how to kill US based bitcoin businesses 1-2-3:

1. Issue guidance (Fincen) that they need to have money transmitting licenses.
2. Attack existing companies in the bitcoin industry without giving them a chance to get a license first.
3. Profit


A more fair way to go about things, which should be done by sensible humans would be to say: Hey, you've got a business running, are you aware of the new requirements for licensing ? You have 6 months to comply with the licensing requirements and get a license, or you will have to close up shop.

But in reality it's all about power. Power for the ones sitting on the top of the food chain, and their friends. If they don't like you, there's essentially nothing you can do - there's always something to frame you on.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: impulse on May 15, 2013, 06:58:47 PM
Well, looks like this is the result of yet more Gox incompetence. Is it time yet to get out of that exchange yet? How many more of these incidents are Gox users willing to endure?

Well, how to kill US based bitcoin businesses 1-2-3:

1. Issue guidance (Fincen) that they need to have money transmitting licenses.
2. Attack existing companies in the bitcoin industry without giving them a chance to get a license first.
3. Profit


A more fair way to go about things, which should be done by sensible humans would be to say: Hey, you've got a business running, are you aware of the new requirements for licensing ? You have 6 months to comply with the licensing requirements and get a license, or you will have to close up shop.

But in reality it's all about power. Power for the ones sitting on the top of the food chain, and their friends. If they don't like you, there's essentially nothing you can do - there's always something to frame you on.

No one should have to hold their hand, it is their responsibility to ensure that their business meets regulatory requirements, and every other major exchange in the states seems to have figured it out, even before the FinCEN document. I would not feel safe keeping money or BTC in Gox right now, who knows what other requirements they may have failed to meet on the Japan side of things.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: k3t3r on May 15, 2013, 07:09:35 PM
seal team 7 have captured Mark Karpeles he will be given a traditional muslim burial at sea. thats all folks.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: Kluge on May 15, 2013, 07:19:15 PM
Why?  That doesn't make any sense.  The only reason they have a case at all is because Mark did not register as a money transfer business.  Both CampBX and Coinbase are registered, so they would have no case. 
AFAIK (and I could definitely be wrong), CampBX is only registered with FinCEN, and does not have MSB licenses for all states they operate in (IANAL, but I'd imagine that if they're going to take on, say, South Carolina customers, they'll need licensing from SC, not just FinCEN). Further, I don't think Coinbase has any MSB licensing at all, but is instead relying on a kind of pass-through from another financial institution.

I'm not intimately familiar with either, so I'd love to see evidence to the contrary.

ETA: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=200443.msg2091394#msg2091394


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: mjsbuddha on May 15, 2013, 07:25:57 PM
This should be an easy fix based on the warrant. Get a new account and don't say "no" when they ask if you run a money transfer business. But now the cat's out of the bag and I bet registering with finCEN will be less than pleasant. It would not surprise me if Mark Karpeles is pursued to the full extent of the law to serve as an example here. 
 
Speaking of, virtual currency was too new to be legislated until March 18th when finCEN released this: http://www.fincen.gov/news_room/nr/pdf/20130318.pdf
 
This document was written on 4/18/13:
 
"an administrator or exchanger [of digital currency] is an MSB under FinCEN’s regulations, specifically, a money transmitter."
 
And then this definition of a Money Service Business was applied to a bank account that was opened on 5/20/11. Essentially, the government created a law that was already being broken. 
 
Regardless, there's a big opportunity here for a new exchange to enter the North American market if you are fearless and not prone to intimidation.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: joesmoe2012 on May 15, 2013, 07:36:53 PM
Well, looks like this is the result of yet more Gox incompetence. Is it time yet to get out of that exchange yet? How many more of these incidents are Gox users willing to endure?

Well, how to kill US based bitcoin businesses 1-2-3:

1. Issue guidance (Fincen) that they need to have money transmitting licenses.
2. Attack existing companies in the bitcoin industry without giving them a chance to get a license first.
3. Profit


A more fair way to go about things, which should be done by sensible humans would be to say: Hey, you've got a business running, are you aware of the new requirements for licensing ? You have 6 months to comply with the licensing requirements and get a license, or you will have to close up shop.

But in reality it's all about power. Power for the ones sitting on the top of the food chain, and their friends. If they don't like you, there's essentially nothing you can do - there's always something to frame you on.

Actually on the application to apply it says you must submit it within 180 days of starting your business.

Mtgox said they spent 25mil to become fully compliant, I think mtgox itself is a registered msb and has gone through great lengths to properly verify people's identity per the aml requirements.

To go after a small shell companies bank accounts which is obviously solely doing business for mtgox (who is licensed) is crazy.

Hopefully Japan shows the USA how is done and refuses to cooperate.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: EndTheFed321 on May 15, 2013, 08:02:37 PM
If Japan refuses to cooperate Drones will have a new target  :o


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: Maged on May 15, 2013, 08:19:06 PM
I'll bet the leadership is kicking themselves right now they didn't follow through selling North American Ops to coinlab... Could have avoided the US govt's nonsense and saved $50 million +
Actually, I'm not entirely sure. What would be the legal difference between MtGox using Dwolla (a registered money transmitter) and CoinLab (also registered)? If MtGox had a company in the US that held some of their funds in the US for conveniently transferring funds between them and CoinLab, would that company also have to register as a money transmitter? What about a cashier at Wal-Mart? After all, they are accepting money and transmitting it to Wal-Mart's bank account according to the wishes of the customer! And, OH NO! They might give refunds to people using that very same money that came into their till from another customer a few minutes ago! I'm not a lawyer, but I suspect that MtGox might have a case here, at least on the Dwolla side of things. International wire transfers I don't know about...


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: joesmoe2012 on May 15, 2013, 08:32:43 PM
Maybe this is part of the reason they wanted to remain a 100 percent Japanese based company and not have a USA based division.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: WackyWilly on May 15, 2013, 08:41:05 PM
Before anybody goes and says that Gox is immune because they are in Japan, I just want to state that Japan would actually be very quick to react. In the past they have been more than happy to get rid of a foreign company if there is even a slight whiff of something dodgy going on. They don't want bullshit from foreign companies.

I expect Gox will be expelled from their office in Shibuya before June.

Based on their track record I wouldn't be surprised for a monumental fuckup, Mark has proven to be criminally negligent on multiple occasions not least of all the reaction to the 2011 hack, not to mention the pirate fiasco.

This is your last warning mark, flee the country and go somewhere safe now or you will find yourself in prison very soon. You don't want to be the only 外国人 in a Japanese prison now, do you? At least you will loose that belly of yours on one bowl of white rice and a glass of water every day.

At the very least this is grounds for him to have his visa revoked making him unable to continue working in Japan. Then it's just a case of what happens to the company and it's assets.

All things considered, all of the rumbling when it comes to MtGox does not bode well for Bitcoin in the short term since it relies way too much upon MtGox.

Long term, BTC will survive IMHO, but short term I would not be surprised to see such a scenario being worked out by authorities, only to see BTC prices collapse once more, be it temporarily.  The reason being: trust is currently far from present in the market - on the slightest hickup BTC sees heavy drops. Yes, it then rebounds, just waiting for the next "negative news". That's not a vote of confidence. I wouldn't be surprised to see double digits within a week.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: DeathAndTaxes on May 15, 2013, 08:41:38 PM
Mtgox said they spent 25mil to become fully compliant, I think mtgox itself is a registered msb and has gone through great lengths to properly verify people's identity per the aml requirements.

The list of MSBs are public record.  You could look it up yourself rather than assume:
http://www.fincen.gov/financial_institutions/msb/msbstateselector.html


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: joesmoe2012 on May 15, 2013, 08:48:02 PM
Mtgox said they spent 25mil to become fully compliant, I think mtgox itself is a registered msb and has gone through great lengths to properly verify people's identity per the aml requirements.

The list of MSBs are public record.  You could look it up yourself rather than assume:
http://www.fincen.gov/financial_institutions/msb/msbstateselector.html

I can't find them in there, but does that conclusively mean the aren't registered?

"...spent 25 mil in the first year to become financially compliant in th us"

http://www.theverge.com/2013/4/1/4154500/mt-gox-barons-of-bitcoin



Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: cr1776 on May 15, 2013, 08:53:34 PM
...there's always something to frame you on.

Good book that says about the same thing, Three Felonies a Day:

http://www.harveysilverglate.com/Books/ThreeFeloniesaDay.aspx


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: joesmoe2012 on May 15, 2013, 08:57:07 PM
...there's always something to frame you on.

Good book that says about the same thing, Three Felonies a Day:

http://www.harveysilverglate.com/Books/ThreeFeloniesaDay.aspx


This is scary, but I believe it.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: DeathAndTaxes on May 15, 2013, 08:58:14 PM
I can't find them in there, but does that conclusively mean the aren't registered?

Yes.  If they aren't listed, they aren't registered.

Quote
"...spent 25 mil in the first year to become financially compliant in th us"

Says nothing about MSB (virtual currency traders didn't even need MSB registration in the "first year" of MtGox).  Doesn't specify what they did to "become financially compliant".  Even if they were financially compliant in 2010 the FinCen declaration on March 2013 was a pretty huge deal, probably the biggest legal event in Bitcoin history (for US based bitcoin related companies).


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: Aseras on May 15, 2013, 09:01:30 PM
the could have fixed this just by using 2 accounts to separate the money and not comingle funds.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: epetroel on May 15, 2013, 09:08:01 PM

I can't find them in there, but does that conclusively mean the aren't registered?

"...spent 25 mil in the first year to become financially compliant in th us"

http://www.theverge.com/2013/4/1/4154500/mt-gox-barons-of-bitcoin



Here's what the article actually says:

"Mt. Gox estimates it costs $25 million in the first year to become fully compliant in the US. But considering a regulator could potentially swoop in and seize funds if a violation were found, it’s worth it."

Doesn't say that they actually did it, just that it's worth it to do it.  Also, if they actually did it, they wouldn't have to estimate right? They would know exactly what it cost.

Funny that they admitted they knew exactly what the risks were, but still never followed through and actually took care of it. 


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: franky1 on May 15, 2013, 09:19:38 PM
Quote
Do you deal in or exchange currency for your customers

Does your business accept funds from customers and send funds on customers instructions

the main questionis.... did MTGOX or Dwolla customer's ever send to or receive funds DIRECTLY from the Mutim sigilum bank account(76XXXXXX13)

the requirement of a money transmission licence all depends on how the mutim sigilum LLC account was used.

if CUSTOMERS put money in or received money from the Mutim sigilum bank account(76XXXXXX13) held with the american bank Wells fargo then YES mutim siligum was involved with money transmission on behalf of customers.

paypal analogy:
if customers were given your bank account number to be used to then credit your paypal account and you repaid customers by withdrawing from paypal to then bank transfer back to customers using your BANK then yes your BANK account would need a money transmission licence.

the flip side.

if customer only funded Dwolla's own bank account with just reference numbers to ensure it reached mtgox's dwolla member ID (81x-xxx-xx10) then NO mutim siligum was not involved with money transmission on behalf of customers.

this is because as soon as it hits the Dwolla member id for mtgox, it becomes MTGOX's property and they can move their own funds through their own subsidiaries freely.

paypal analogy. someone puts money into your paypal account. you withdraw it to your actual bank account. you also deposit from your bank account back in to paypal. as soon as it hits paypal it still remains your property until you hand it to the customer.
so your BANK account is not touching customers money, just your profit/income/outgoing.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: crazy_rabbit on May 15, 2013, 09:23:18 PM
Wait- did that warrant just call bitcoin a currency? Did the US government just call bitcoin a currency?


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: joesmoe2012 on May 15, 2013, 09:25:04 PM
I would imagine that they've spent millions setting this stuff up correctly.

I think the US govt is just finding ways to nit pick because they need some excuse to seize funds.

These are both solely my opinions.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: Its About Sharing on May 15, 2013, 10:49:44 PM
I would imagine that they've spent millions setting this stuff up correctly.

I think the US govt is just finding ways to nit pick because they need some excuse to seize funds.

These are both solely my opinions.


And if they do a few more of these and none of them stick, the courts are going to start to refuse to do anymore. Not to mention other countries are watching. The beauty of all this, is that there are so many exchanges and they keep growing. So, essentially you have a government/banking system going after BTC (decentralized) through an essentially decentralized exchange. Ummmm, they don't have this much time.

The anti-fragile nature of Bitcoin is already flexing its muscles. The Black Swan is here fellas. See sig...

IAS


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: Technomage on May 15, 2013, 10:52:58 PM
I wouldn't worry about Bitcoin here. In fact, this is where Bitcoin shows its strength. Why is the price not crashing further? Well. Let me explain that. If user X has fiat in Gox and he is afraid of the situation, what is the best way to get the money out? Bitcoin! So the user actually buys bitcoins and then transfers them out.

Bitcoin is going strong. Gox is in trouble, true. They have already been in trouble from fast usage growth, ddos and Coinlab. This is one more to add to that list. Mark has got his work cut out for him. We'll see what happens.

For now it would be nice to know how much got frozen in this. I would imagine not too much, but it would be nice to know.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: BlueNote on May 15, 2013, 11:00:01 PM

What about a cashier at Wal-Mart? After all, they are accepting money and transmitting it to Wal-Mart's bank account according to the wishes of the customer! And, OH NO! They might give refunds to people using that very same money that came into their till from another customer a few minutes ago!

You hit the nail on the head. It's all a bunch of nonsense. They can say you are or you aren't, and they're always right.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: BlueNote on May 15, 2013, 11:09:39 PM

No one should have to hold their hand, it is their responsibility to ensure that their business meets regulatory requirements, and every other major exchange in the states seems to have figured it out, even before the FinCEN document. I would not feel safe keeping money or BTC in Gox right now, who knows what other requirements they may have failed to meet on the Japan side of things.

They're not "an exchange in the states," and they're not a "money transmitting business" in the states either. Those claims are beyond ridiculous. They just had a Dwolla account  - which is now apparently a federal offense.



Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: eldentyrell on May 15, 2013, 11:55:13 PM
http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Mt-Gox-Dwolla-Warrant-5-14-13.pdf

The target is clearly Mtgox.

I called it (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79902.msg943662#msg943662) almost a year ago.

Gox saw this coming and played it at least somewhat smart.  Now you know why dwolla deposits/withdrawals were taking so long.  This was inevitable, and they planned for it.

Unfortunately it amounts to their customers playing musical chairs.  My condolences to those still standing when the music stopped.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: indio007 on May 16, 2013, 01:31:28 AM
Well if you read the warrant it seems the FBI are confessing BTC is considered currency. Although, I hardly think that this is the official stance of the United States government.
A judgment in favor of the US would be good long term for BTC under the principal of judicial estoppel.

Other that , this warrant is defective on multiple levels (like most warrants). There is no first hand knowledge . It doesn't even claim to have heard the information from someone with first hand knowledge.

Thirdly the Final rules concerning crypto-currency BTC were only just printed in the Federal Register.
The gov't is obligated to give MTGOX a notice to register their business because under he old rules they were not a money services business.

This is simply a money grab.



Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: gizmoh on May 16, 2013, 06:45:30 AM
Interesting read on MSB regulations:

http://contrariancompliance.com/2013/04/14/is-us-regulation-the-single-biggest-threat-to-bitcoin/


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: bg002h on May 16, 2013, 11:18:45 AM
Are all banks registered as money transmitters? It seems to me that a money transmitter should be transmitting money between _different_ people.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: repentance on May 16, 2013, 11:23:38 AM

A more fair way to go about things, which should be done by sensible humans would be to say: Hey, you've got a business running, are you aware of the new requirements for licensing ? You have 6 months to comply with the licensing requirements and get a license, or you will have to close up shop.


Actually you do have 6 months from when you start operating as a money transmitter to register as such with FinCEN.  The particular piece of legislation they're alleged to not have complied with doesn't just pertain to FinCEN registration, though, it also applies to the requirement to register as a MSB in individual states - which means that further investigation could find more violations.

It's going to be hard for Mark to argue he had no idea that MtGox was acting as a money transmitter when there are posts on here made by Mark last year talking about MtGox's intention to register as such in the US and how it would be a state by state process as the exact requirements varied from one state to another.  

When Dwolla sends funds from a customer account to MtGox at the customer's request, it's without question acting as a money transmitter.  It's absurd to then claim that MtGox is not transmitting money when it transfers customer funds to the customer's Dwolla account at the customer's request.  

It will be interesting to see whether MtGox is now exposed to other financial services regulations violations.  If it was operating as a money transmitter within the US, then what obligations did it have to file reports on suspicious transactions, threshold transactions, etc with FinCEN?

PayPal tried to argue for years that they weren't a money service business and they lost despite having the enormous financial resources of eBay at their disposal.

Quote
Are all banks registered as money transmitters? It seems to me that a money transmitter should be transmitting money between _different_ people.

MtGox does this.  It transmits the BTC buyer's money to the seller (as PayPal does) - MtGox itself is not a party to the transaction.

It's worth remembering that there could actually be more user funds in the seized Wells Fargo account than in the seized Dwolla account.  MtGox has tended to limit the amount being transferred to Dwolla at any one time just in case Dwolla itself froze their account or reversed transactions.  Presumably, the funds which were "queued" awaiting transfer to Dwolla are in the seized Wells Fargo account.

It's a pity the media's probably not going to be able to snoop and find out the amounts which have been seized.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: bitcoinminer on May 16, 2013, 01:57:43 PM
GOX GOT GOXXXED!


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: Coinseeker on May 16, 2013, 01:58:34 PM
Comply or die.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: Its About Sharing on May 16, 2013, 02:03:32 PM

A more fair way to go about things, which should be done by sensible humans would be to say: Hey, you've got a business running, are you aware of the new requirements for licensing ? You have 6 months to comply with the licensing requirements and get a license, or you will have to close up shop.


Actually you do have 6 months from when you start operating as a money transmitter to register as such with FinCEN.  The particular piece of legislation they're alleged to not have complied with doesn't just pertain to FinCEN registration, though, it also applies to the requirement to register as a MSB in individual states - which means that further investigation could find more violations.

It's going to be hard for Mark to argue he had no idea that MtGox was acting as a money transmitter when there are posts on here made by Mark last year talking about MtGox's intention to register as such in the US and how it would be a state by state process as the exact requirements varied from one state to another.  

When Dwolla sends funds from a customer account to MtGox at the customer's request, it's without question acting as a money transmitter.  It's absurd to then claim that MtGox is not transmitting money when it transfers customer funds to the customer's Dwolla account at the customer's request.  

It will be interesting to see whether MtGox is now exposed to other financial services regulations violations.  If it was operating as a money transmitter within the US, then what obligations did it have to file reports on suspicious transactions, threshold transactions, etc with FinCEN?

PayPal tried to argue for years that they weren't a money service business and they lost despite having the enormous financial resources of eBay at their disposal.

Quote
Are all banks registered as money transmitters? It seems to me that a money transmitter should be transmitting money between _different_ people.

MtGox does this.  It transmits the BTC buyer's money to the seller (as PayPal does) - MtGox itself is not a party to the transaction.

It's worth remembering that there could actually be more user funds in the seized Wells Fargo account than in the seized Dwolla account.  MtGox has tended to limit the amount being transferred to Dwolla at any one time just in case Dwolla itself froze their account or reversed transactions.  Presumably, the funds which were "queued" awaiting transfer to Dwolla are in the seized Wells Fargo account.

It's a pity the media's probably not going to be able to snoop and find out the amounts which have been seized.

Really well said and thanks for the information.

This is going to be a potential thorn in the side of MtGox, but it should not be the end. But hopefully what it does is get their customers going to other exchanges (to aid in decentralizing our decentralized technology!) and cause other entrepreneurs to open up more exchanges.

What we shouldn't lose sight of here is that if we play by the rules (aka regulations) we should be fine. If they wanted to attack BTC openly, that ship has mostly sailed. I liken this to other areas where the government tried to overly enforce regulations (post internet) and was just unable to keep up with the expansion of the field in question. I'm not saying they won't be able to regulate, as I think they will. But in a sense, what has just happened is like the DDOS attacks - they only made us stronger. Other exchanges now have to get everything in order. We are truly growing quickly and will experience growing pains, all the while becoming stronger.

Remember, we are a Black Swan and anti-fragile technology (per my sig). This doesn't mean we will succeed, but we have Universe on our side.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: Its About Sharing on May 16, 2013, 02:04:09 PM
Comply or die.

I tend to agree with you for once.  ;)


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: DeathAndTaxes on May 16, 2013, 03:11:37 PM
Are all banks registered as money transmitters? It seems to me that a money transmitter should be transmitting money between _different_ people.

Banks are exempt from registration as a MSB.

Quote
(8) Limitation. For the purposes of this section, the term “money services business” shall not include:

(i) A bank or foreign bank;

(ii) A person registered with, and functionally regulated or examined by, the SEC or the CFTC, or a foreign financial agency that engages in financial activities that, if conducted in the United States, would require the foreign financial agency to be registered with the SEC or CFTC; or

(iii) A natural person who engages in an activity identified in paragraphs (ff)(1) through (ff)(5) of this section on an infrequent basis and not for gain or profit.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=b3dbf70d55232935bba654ea6c52ba2b&rgn=div8&view=text&node=31:3.1.6.1.2.1.3.1&idno=31


Of course Banks are subject to FinCEN regulation as a "Bank" which is a superset of the requirements of an MSB.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: lexxus on May 16, 2013, 03:33:03 PM
I don't undestand people who are happy that Gox can go down. When Gox goes down and there is still nothing in to reaplace it, it will be a major blow at bitcoin infrastructure.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: DeathAndTaxes on May 16, 2013, 03:36:27 PM
I don't undestand people who are happy that Gox can go down. When Gox goes down and there is still nothing in to reaplace it, it will be a major blow at bitcoin infrastructure.

A loud minority notwithstanding I don't think most people want to see Gox "go down".  However Gox does need to fix their issues and it likely would be better if Gox played a smaller role among a larger network of exchanges all over the world.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: buddrulez on May 16, 2013, 03:37:14 PM
This is very bad news for the US but I am sure some braniac will find a work around, they always do!


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: dmartig on May 16, 2013, 03:56:39 PM
al capone got busted for tax evasion


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: oaxaca on May 16, 2013, 04:21:04 PM
Doyle Lonnegan: [There is a pause, and Lonnegan runs horrified to the betting booth] There's been a mistake! Gimme my money back!

 - The Sting (1973)


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: crumbcake on May 16, 2013, 04:25:46 PM
Is "Mutum Sigillum" a great company name when you're trying to avoid excess attention ???


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: stick_theman on May 16, 2013, 04:34:27 PM
Any one knows how much money is seized?  Anyone reading this has money seized?   :o


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: deadweasel on May 16, 2013, 04:36:06 PM
Any one knows how much money is seized?  Anyone reading this has money seized?   :o

We do not have the balances of the accounts that were seized. 


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: Stephen Gornick on May 16, 2013, 07:01:25 PM
Quote
"On May 9, 2013, the Honorable Stephanie A. Gallagher issued a seizure warrant for the contents of the Mutum Sigillum LLC account at Wells Fargo, based on the forgoing information."

I wonder if Mt. Gox knew this.   It is possible Wells Fargo simply blocked Mt. Gox from any access to their account and didn't provide info if there were an inquiry, and thus Mt. Gox wouldn't know the funds had been seized.  But if Mt. Gox was aware of the Wells Fargo account being seized it might have been nice of them to share that info with the community.

[Update: So, there were two separate account seizures.   Nobody in the media cared to discuss the May 9th Wells Fargo one?]


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: BlueNote on May 16, 2013, 07:21:49 PM

A more fair way to go about things, which should be done by sensible humans would be to say: Hey, you've got a business running, are you aware of the new requirements for licensing ? You have 6 months to comply with the licensing requirements and get a license, or you will have to close up shop.


When Dwolla sends funds from a customer account to MtGox at the customer's request, it's without question acting as a money transmitter.  It's absurd to then claim that MtGox is not transmitting money when it transfers customer funds to the customer's Dwolla account at the customer's request.  


Everyone "transmits money" in the course of doing business. The "customer request" here is "give me my money." Gox is not sending money to other people at customer request. The customer has an account that they are either depositing into or withdrawing from.



Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: K and A Traders on May 16, 2013, 07:55:18 PM
Everyone "transmits money" in the course of doing business. The "customer request" here is "give me my money." Gox is not sending money to other people at customer request. The customer has an account that they are either depositing into or withdrawing from.

It's understandable that people are upset.  However, there are rules.  Not only are there rules, but the rules are fairly clear.  Not only are they fairly clear, they were further clarified a couple months ago.

There is no excuse for MtGox to not have registered with Fincen.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: bozak on May 16, 2013, 08:00:16 PM
Everyone "transmits money" in the course of doing business. The "customer request" here is "give me my money." Gox is not sending money to other people at customer request. The customer has an account that they are either depositing into or withdrawing from.

It's understandable that people are upset.  However, there are rules.  Not only are there rules, but the rules are fairly clear.  Not only are they fairly clear, they were further clarified a couple months ago.

There is no excuse for MtGox to not have registered with Fincen.

Agreed that the recent clarification should have prompted Gox to register.  However, I can't find any info about any of the exchanges registering (CampBx, Coinbase, Tradehill, Coinlab, Coinsetter).  Has anyone found any evidence that any of the exchanges has registered?


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: crumbcake on May 16, 2013, 08:05:42 PM
Everyone "transmits money" in the course of doing business. The "customer request" here is "give me my money." Gox is not sending money to other people at customer request. The customer has an account that they are either depositing into or withdrawing from.

It's understandable that people are upset.  However, there are rules.  Not only are there rules, but the rules are fairly clear.  Not only are they fairly clear, they were further clarified a couple months ago.

There is no excuse for MtGox to not have registered with Fincen.

Agreed that the recent clarification should have prompted Gox to register.  However, I can't find any info about any of the exchanges registering (CampBx, Coinbase, Tradehill, Coinlab, Coinsetter).  Has anyone found any evidence that any of the exchanges has registered?

Aren't they relatively small compared to Mt.Gox?  Seems only reasonable that the big kids get served first.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: jamesgarfield on May 17, 2013, 12:08:18 AM
There are two sad realities here.

1) I have absolutely zero confidence in the MtGox legal defense team

2) If MtGox goes down, it will be a loooong time before bitcoin can recover

Hopefully someone can provide some relief

I disagree, if MTGOX is down I think BTC will be free from there grip and new exchanges will pop up everywhere, increasing Bitcoins price. Just my opinion :)


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: CasinoBit on May 17, 2013, 12:26:17 AM
"Honorable"


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: jamesgarfield on May 17, 2013, 03:07:39 AM
FBI Is trying to bring down Bitcoin, after all, its their job they are hired to protect the federal monetary system.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: Namealreadyexists on May 17, 2013, 05:27:03 AM
seal team 7 have captured Mark Karpeles he will be given a traditional muslim burial at sea. thats all folks.

Tyrannosaurus, mtgoxaurus, who cares, as long as I can fill up my gas tank with what's left of them.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: phelix on May 17, 2013, 07:11:17 AM
MtGox removed the info about the Dwolla account seizure from their website...    hmmm.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: Darktongue on May 17, 2013, 07:16:08 AM
Frankly gox has to much control over bitcoin prices. In a sence it's what makes the system a fail.  The idea that gox shits the bed and crypto falls makes it a central base of operation.  Something I thought crypto sought not to be. Further the scary fact here is the access the fed was granted to see all them dollars going out to poor sons of bitches  who wher under the impression that privacy was being held.  How deep will this eagles dick bury into the asshole of this community is my question.  


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: abbyd on May 17, 2013, 07:51:52 AM
The application made by M. Karpeles for the bank account which stated they were not in the money transmitting business is also going to hurt. Perhaps he can argue that the account was originally intended for a different use. It will sort of depend on when it was linked to Dwolla.

Overall, this seems like more trouble for Mt. Gox arising from their unprofessional practices.


Slow down - FinCEN "guidelines" were only published a month ago, which lumped bitcoin exchanges in with other MSBs. Karpeles filled out the form in 2011. The law that DHS is invoking may not even APPLY to bitcoin - they'll have to prove that BTC is money!  Maybe the Feds chose DHS to do this because they a) have nothing to do in those air-conditioned offices, and b) are some of the slowest-moving bureaucrats on the face of the earth...



Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: crumbcake on May 17, 2013, 11:58:03 AM
The application made by M. Karpeles for the bank account which stated they were not in the money transmitting business is also going to hurt. Perhaps he can argue that the account was originally intended for a different use. It will sort of depend on when it was linked to Dwolla.

Overall, this seems like more trouble for Mt. Gox arising from their unprofessional practices.


Slow down - FinCEN "guidelines" were only published a month ago, which lumped bitcoin exchanges in with other MSBs. Karpeles filled out the form in 2011. The law that DHS is invoking may not even APPLY to bitcoin - they'll have to prove that BTC is money!  Maybe the Feds chose DHS to do this because they a) have nothing to do in those air-conditioned offices, and b) are some of the slowest-moving bureaucrats on the face of the earth...

The proposed DHS budget for 2014 is 35.5 billion dollars, and the department is eager to show some bang for the buck.  Protecting us from fake bombs that DHS itself provides to the ghetto-dwelling wannabe terrorists has grown a bit ho-hum, and DHS has shown itself incapable of protecting us from real bomb threats (Boston marathon).  
I can't think of a better way to pad DHS's portfolio of epic wins than this catchy headline:
DHS Brings Shadownet Cash Coining Criminals to Justice
I'm betting this is a just a marketing test.  Unless people respond with "WTF," more news at 7.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: benjamindees on May 17, 2013, 08:00:46 PM
Bullshit.

It is impossible to transmit every single order by Mutum Sigillum to Mtgox in Japan on behalf of their clients, because wire costs would kill the buisness. The two companies were merly reducing funds imbalance from time to time - it cannot be called transmitting money on behalf of their clients.

But this isn't really a defense.  That's what all money transmitters do.  It's the reason that money transmitters are regulated.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: abbyd on May 17, 2013, 08:24:32 PM
The application made by M. Karpeles for the bank account which stated they were not in the money transmitting business is also going to hurt. Perhaps he can argue that the account was originally intended for a different use. It will sort of depend on when it was linked to Dwolla.

Overall, this seems like more trouble for Mt. Gox arising from their unprofessional practices.


Slow down - FinCEN "guidelines" were only published a month ago, which lumped bitcoin exchanges in with other MSBs. Karpeles filled out the form in 2011. The law that DHS is invoking may not even APPLY to bitcoin - they'll have to prove that BTC is money!  Maybe the Feds chose DHS to do this because they a) have nothing to do in those air-conditioned offices, and b) are some of the slowest-moving bureaucrats on the face of the earth...

The proposed DHS budget for 2014 is 35.5 billion dollars, and the department is eager to show some bang for the buck.  Protecting us from fake bombs that DHS itself provides to the ghetto-dwelling wannabe terrorists has grown a bit ho-hum, and DHS has shown itself incapable of protecting us from real bomb threats (Boston marathon).  
I can't think of a better way to pad DHS's portfolio of epic wins than this catchy headline:
DHS Brings Shadownet Cash Coining Criminals to Justice
I'm betting this is a just a marketing test.  Unless people respond with "WTF," more news at 7.

That's it!  Betsofbitcoin:

"In 2013, bitcoin will be directly linked to 'financing terrorism' in the US mainstream media."

And I wonder who will be behind it...  it's all about job security:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2013/05/01/f-q-a-trevor-aaronson.html (http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2013/05/01/f-q-a-trevor-aaronson.html)


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: repentance on May 17, 2013, 10:20:03 PM
Slow down - FinCEN "guidelines" were only published a month ago, which lumped bitcoin exchanges in with other MSBs. Karpeles filled out the form in 2011. The law that DHS is invoking may not even APPLY to bitcoin - they'll have to prove that BTC is money!  Maybe the Feds chose DHS to do this because they a) have nothing to do in those air-conditioned offices, and b) are some of the slowest-moving bureaucrats on the face of the earth...

The MSB violations have nothing to do with them dealing in Bitcoin or with BTC being money.  It's what they're doing with USD which requires them to be registered as a MSB.  The FinCEN guidance would appear to bring services transmitting BTC only under regulatory capture, but that's not the regulation which is being used in this instance.  No "new" regulation is being used to justify the MSB offence.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: The-Real-Link on May 17, 2013, 10:57:55 PM
Thank you for posting that warrant summary.  Not sure how easily that was found but it does outlay all the questions I had for Dwolla earlier. 

Basically to sum up, it appears Karpeles* lied on opening the account as being used for transferring money and being a money type of business.  The field agent tried testing it enough via Dwolla in a few months to connect the dots, then have a judge's order to seize the account.

Called Dwolla and they couldn't tell me more than that they'd learned about coins a lot this week (probably because half of Gox's account holders are calling them).  Just seems like it's fine to go pick a different exchange and be good to go.

I wouldn't be surprised if this, coupled with the Coinlab suit, severely impairs or closes Gox.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: repentance on May 17, 2013, 11:08:22 PM

Called Dwolla and they couldn't tell me more than that they'd learned about coins a lot this week (probably because half of Gox's account holders are calling them).  Just seems like it's fine to go pick a different exchange and be good to go.


Dwolla brought in special conditions for Bitcoin related businesses last year.  One reason why MtGox limited the amount of transfers going through Dwolla at any one time was fear that Dwolla itself would suddenly freeze their account.

Dwolla will likely review their policy regarding servicing Bitcoin related businesses again now.

We don't know how the seizure of the Wells Fargo account is going to affect MtGox operations.  It may have held a small amount of user funds or it could have held a large amount of user funds.



Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: The-Real-Link on May 17, 2013, 11:43:06 PM

Called Dwolla and they couldn't tell me more than that they'd learned about coins a lot this week (probably because half of Gox's account holders are calling them).  Just seems like it's fine to go pick a different exchange and be good to go.


Dwolla brought in special conditions for Bitcoin related businesses last year.  One reason why MtGox limited the amount of transfers going through Dwolla at any one time was fear that Dwolla itself would suddenly freeze their account.

Dwolla will likely review their policy regarding servicing Bitcoin related businesses again now.

We don't know how the seizure of the Wells Fargo account is going to affect MtGox operations.  It may have held a small amount of user funds or it could have held a large amount of user funds.



Typed up a paragraph with money questions but it didn't sound right ... yeah I hear ya.  I do think Dwolla will reevaluate how they handle exchanges or any BTC business though, as you said.


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: threeip on May 17, 2013, 11:52:15 PM
Agreed that the recent clarification should have prompted Gox to register.  However, I can't find any info about any of the exchanges registering (CampBx, Coinbase, Tradehill, Coinlab, Coinsetter).  Has anyone found any evidence that any of the exchanges has registered?

Coinbase is registered (22nd April 13)
Coinlab is registered (10th April 13)
Couldn't find records for the others.

Quote
MSB Registration Number: 31000024917794
Registration Type: Initial Registration, Corrected Report
Legal Name: CoinLab, Inc
States of MSB Activities:
Washington

Quote
MSB Registration Number: 31000025767705
Registration Type: Initial Registration
Legal Name: Coinbase, Inc.
States of MSB Activities:
Alabama, Alaska, American Samoa, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, District Of Columbia,
Federated States Of Micronesia, Florida, Georgia, Guam, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas,
Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Marshall Islands, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri,
Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Northern Mariana Islands,
Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Palau, Pennsylvania, Puerto Rico, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee,
Texas, Utah, Vermont, Virgin Islands, US, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming


Title: Re: Here is the Seizure Warrant
Post by: abbyd on May 18, 2013, 04:06:35 PM
Slow down - FinCEN "guidelines" were only published a month ago, which lumped bitcoin exchanges in with other MSBs. Karpeles filled out the form in 2011. The law that DHS is invoking may not even APPLY to bitcoin - they'll have to prove that BTC is money!  Maybe the Feds chose DHS to do this because they a) have nothing to do in those air-conditioned offices, and b) are some of the slowest-moving bureaucrats on the face of the earth...

The MSB violations have nothing to do with them dealing in Bitcoin or with BTC being money.  It's what they're doing with USD which requires them to be registered as a MSB.  The FinCEN guidance would appear to bring services transmitting BTC only under regulatory capture, but that's not the regulation which is being used in this instance.  No "new" regulation is being used to justify the MSB offence.

IANAL, but I think no - http://www.fincen.gov/financial_institutions/msb/definitions/msb.html
Before this regulatory change, (according to some bean-counters) bitcoin exchanges were "selling stuff", not "transferring money", now they are "exchanging currency".

Several of the wimpier exchanges folded right when the change happened.
http://www.americanbanker.com/bankthink/fincen-regulations-choking-bitcoin-entrepreneurs-1058606-1.html?zkPrintable=1&nopagination=1