Here is the Seizure Warrant

[CypressXM]

This is bogus. Mutum Silligum does not transfer money, Dowalla does. Mutum is a vendor, they are only transferring the money to the parent company.

This would be the same as busting a Google subsidiary in Germany for not registering as a "Money transmitting business" because they sent profit back to the U.S. parent company.

The agent went Full Retard. Either that or it's a real attack.

[SlaveInDebt]

50$ comes in bank account from person X
... nothing happens with money ...
50$ goes out bank account to person Y


= money transmitter

Love it. Money in banks allowed, money moving out bad  

[CompNsci]

Perhaps CoinLab suggested to the Feds that they may be interested in investigating this issue.

[SlaveInDebt]

Perhaps CoinLab suggested to the Feds that they may be interested in investigating this issue.

Na, that sounds too plausible.

[mcgravier]

Bullshit.

It is impossible to transmit every single order by Mutum Sigillum to Mtgox in Japan on behalf of their clients, because wire costs would kill the buisness. The two companies were merly reducing funds imbalance from time to time - it cannot be called transmitting money on behalf of their clients. And Mtgox is out of U.S jurisdiction, so unlicenced money exchange part does not apply as well.

I think we are dealing with political attack.

And so the shitstorm begins!

[bozak]

This is pretty much THE test case which will determine Bitcoin's future. If Gox loses, the various gov't departments will have precedent to go after EVERYTHING BTC businesses are at risk for when Bitcoin's considered a currency.

Why?  That doesn't make any sense.  The only reason they have a case at all is because Mark did not register as a money transfer business.  Both CampBX and Coinbase are registered, so they would have no case. 

[CompNsci]

It looks like it is the transfer of the money from the Iowa bank account to Dwolla, in order to facilitate a customer transaction, that will really get them in trouble here. That transfer is denominated in USD, and appears to be based on customer requests.

The application made by M. Karpeles for the bank account which stated they were not in the money transmitting business is also going to hurt. Perhaps he can argue that the account was originally intended for a different use. It will sort of depend on when it was linked to Dwolla.

Overall, this seems like more trouble for Mt. Gox arising from their unprofessional practices.

CampBX had better start gearing up for an increase in volume.

I am trying to figure out a way that you could argue that Mt. Gox is not involved in the transfer of USD, only BTC.

[TheFootMan]

Bullshit.

It is impossible to transmit every single order by Mutum Sigillum to Mtgox in Japan on behalf of their clients, because wire costs would kill the buisness. The two companies were merly reducing funds imbalance from time to time - it cannot be called transmitting money on behalf of their clients. And Mtgox is out of U.S jurisdiction, so unlicenced money exchange part does not apply as well.

I think we are dealing with political attack.

And so the shitstorm begins!

Yes, we do know the people behind the Coinlab lawsuit has deep pockets, also with political connections. So they could pull this off.

[DrKennethNoisewater]

Typically, Once a govt agency seizes funds, those funds are never recovered.

[Stampbit]

Looks like the price of coin is still rising, lol.

[impulse]

Well, looks like this is the result of yet more Gox incompetence. Is it time yet to get out of that exchange yet? How many more of these incidents are Gox users willing to endure?

[Cryptoman]

Looks like the price of coin is still rising, lol.

That is exactly what the value of an un-seizable asset should do in the presence of seizures.

[ChinaCoin]

https://i.imgur.com/OwF81Ug.png

Who is the Maryland Snitch?

Buying bitcoin is illegal or something???

[TheFootMan]

Well, looks like this is the result of yet more Gox incompetence. Is it time yet to get out of that exchange yet? How many more of these incidents are Gox users willing to endure?

Well, how to kill US based bitcoin businesses 1-2-3:

1. Issue guidance (Fincen) that they need to have money transmitting licenses.
2. Attack existing companies in the bitcoin industry without giving them a chance to get a license first.
3. Profit


A more fair way to go about things, which should be done by sensible humans would be to say: Hey, you've got a business running, are you aware of the new requirements for licensing ? You have 6 months to comply with the licensing requirements and get a license, or you will have to close up shop.

But in reality it's all about power. Power for the ones sitting on the top of the food chain, and their friends. If they don't like you, there's essentially nothing you can do - there's always something to frame you on.

[impulse]

Well, looks like this is the result of yet more Gox incompetence. Is it time yet to get out of that exchange yet? How many more of these incidents are Gox users willing to endure?

Well, how to kill US based bitcoin businesses 1-2-3:

1. Issue guidance (Fincen) that they need to have money transmitting licenses.
2. Attack existing companies in the bitcoin industry without giving them a chance to get a license first.
3. Profit


A more fair way to go about things, which should be done by sensible humans would be to say: Hey, you've got a business running, are you aware of the new requirements for licensing ? You have 6 months to comply with the licensing requirements and get a license, or you will have to close up shop.

But in reality it's all about power. Power for the ones sitting on the top of the food chain, and their friends. If they don't like you, there's essentially nothing you can do - there's always something to frame you on.

No one should have to hold their hand, it is their responsibility to ensure that their business meets regulatory requirements, and every other major exchange in the states seems to have figured it out, even before the FinCEN document. I would not feel safe keeping money or BTC in Gox right now, who knows what other requirements they may have failed to meet on the Japan side of things.

[k3t3r]

seal team 7 have captured Mark Karpeles he will be given a traditional muslim burial at sea. thats all folks.

[Kluge]

Why?  That doesn't make any sense.  The only reason they have a case at all is because Mark did not register as a money transfer business.  Both CampBX and Coinbase are registered, so they would have no case. 

AFAIK (and I could definitely be wrong), CampBX is only registered with FinCEN, and does not have MSB licenses for all states they operate in (IANAL, but I'd imagine that if they're going to take on, say, South Carolina customers, they'll need licensing from SC, not just FinCEN). Further, I don't think Coinbase has any MSB licensing at all, but is instead relying on a kind of pass-through from another financial institution.

I'm not intimately familiar with either, so I'd love to see evidence to the contrary.

ETA: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=200443.msg2091394#msg2091394

[mjsbuddha]

This should be an easy fix based on the warrant. Get a new account and don't say "no" when they ask if you run a money transfer business. But now the cat's out of the bag and I bet registering with finCEN will be less than pleasant. It would not surprise me if Mark Karpeles is pursued to the full extent of the law to serve as an example here. 
 
Speaking of, virtual currency was too new to be legislated until March 18th when finCEN released this: http://www.fincen.gov/news_room/nr/pdf/20130318.pdf
 
This document was written on 4/18/13:
 
"an administrator or exchanger [of digital currency] is an MSB under FinCEN’s regulations, specifically, a money transmitter."
 
And then this definition of a Money Service Business was applied to a bank account that was opened on 5/20/11. Essentially, the government created a law that was already being broken. 
 
Regardless, there's a big opportunity here for a new exchange to enter the North American market if you are fearless and not prone to intimidation.

[joesmoe2012]

Well, looks like this is the result of yet more Gox incompetence. Is it time yet to get out of that exchange yet? How many more of these incidents are Gox users willing to endure?

Well, how to kill US based bitcoin businesses 1-2-3:

1. Issue guidance (Fincen) that they need to have money transmitting licenses.
2. Attack existing companies in the bitcoin industry without giving them a chance to get a license first.
3. Profit


A more fair way to go about things, which should be done by sensible humans would be to say: Hey, you've got a business running, are you aware of the new requirements for licensing ? You have 6 months to comply with the licensing requirements and get a license, or you will have to close up shop.

But in reality it's all about power. Power for the ones sitting on the top of the food chain, and their friends. If they don't like you, there's essentially nothing you can do - there's always something to frame you on.

Actually on the application to apply it says you must submit it within 180 days of starting your business.

Mtgox said they spent 25mil to become fully compliant, I think mtgox itself is a registered msb and has gone through great lengths to properly verify people's identity per the aml requirements.

To go after a small shell companies bank accounts which is obviously solely doing business for mtgox (who is licensed) is crazy.

Hopefully Japan shows the USA how is done and refuses to cooperate.

[EndTheFed321]

If Japan refuses to cooperate Drones will have a new target